Lead for the 25-35

[beefyz]

Hi. Need some help w/this bit of nostalgia. Even though lead is supposed to be a problem with the 1:8 twist of this rifle, i've had pretty good luck with it. Trouble is i'm looking to expand my powder options and can't find data for it. I saw way back a very old book, "Complete guide to Handloading" pg 354 had the whole page dedicated to 25-35. My copied page was blurry and out of focus. Does anyone have a copy of this page and can forward it here ? Would be VERY appreciated. Looking for lead data for 85-88s, 100s, 110-115s, 125s. I'd like to use powders i've used in my other levers like 32-20 & 30-30 like 2400, 4759, red dot, 4227, Trail Boss, etc . Anyone have any data similar on any of these? Thanks

[John Boy]

What are you looking for - bullets for 25-35 or powder charges for 25-35 or both. I'm lost when you say "lead"

[John Boy]

The page ...
The bullet ... http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/Cast_Bullet/Ideal-Lyman_Molds/Bullets/25717.jpg

25717. This is the .25-35 Winchester series. Loading tool that is correct for the regular .25-35 Winchester metal patched bullets will seat any of these, one groove will project beyond the muzzle of shell so that bullets will have a longer bearing to hold on to the quick twist rifling. For short range bullets, note the 78 grains weight and bullet No. 25721, both seat with the regular tool. (PB, FN, 66, 78, 91, 108, 117, 125, 157, Also Perfection - TP is 420)

Good Luck finding the bullet made by vendors or the Ideal Perfection Mold which is rare

[Char-Gar]

The 25-35 is a special needs child due to the fast rifling twist. Use heavier bullets like 100 to 120 grains and don't expect great accuracy much beyond 1.6K fps or so. Faster powders will do best.

[Outpost75]

You can load as little as 4 grains of fast burning pistol or shotgun powder with lead plain-based .25-20 bullets. The 25-85CM RCBS cowboy slugs drive inch and half groups at 50 yards with iron sights and make little more noise than a .22 LR, but are more effective. I’m don’t know whether the factories ever loaded small game rounds for the .25-35 like they did for the .30-30. But when hand-loaded with cast lead bullets designed for the .25-20, at similar velocity, the .25-35 WCF makes a fine small game cartridge.

I cast the RCBS bullets of wheel weights and shoot them un-sized. 4 grains of Bullseye gave 1120 f.p.s. and 5 grains of Bullseye gave 1200 f.p.s. The fastest cast bullet load which shot acceptably with the plain-based RCBS bullet was 7 grs. of #2400 for 1420 f.p.s.

[beefyz]

Thanks guys for replies; keep 'em coming ! I've got the bullets, an 85, 110, & 125, either in PB or GC. Data is what's rare. So far with the "boolits" , 4759 and 4227 have worked the best. Trail Boss, Bullseye, & Titegroup have been "spotty". The 85 gr loads i've found have been OK; just looking for more options. What i really want to perfect is the 100-120gr boolit loads. The 2400 intrigues me. I KNOW 2400 is on that page in that complete guide to reloading book. Still hoping someone can find that page for me...
John Boy... thanks, unfortunately i don't cast but THAT boolit sure would be an answer. Ever see anyone offer that boolit for sale ?
Outpost.... is that 7gr of 2400 for an 85gr? Where should a 100 gr/125gr be ?

[John Boy]

The 2400 intrigues me. I KNOW 2400 is on that page in that complete guide to reloading book. Still hoping someone can find that page for me...
John Boy... thanks, unfortunately i don't cast but THAT boolit sure would be an answer. Ever see anyone offer that boolit for sale ?
Outpost.... is that 7gr of 2400 for an 85gr? Where should a 100 gr/125gr be ?
beefyz - ARE YOU TOTALLY BLIND? The pdf file that I took the time to scan and attach in my post has FIVE 2400 powder charges for different weight bullets: 85 - 87 - 100 - 111 - 117 Print the file and READ IT There is no loading data on the chart for a 125gr bullet in Sharpe's book on page 354!

Truthfully, I believe you are in fairy land some where. The Ideal 25717 bullet that again I posted for you is an obsolete bullet. You'll have to find from a vendor which I know no one makes or sells any of the 25717 bullets including the 125 or 157gr one ... use a comparable bullet for your fairy land endeavor
And here's some further education for you: the 25-35 caliber was a black powder bullet. So your best bet is to load any of your bullets using Hodgdon's formula with Trail Boss to emulate a BP charge of 35grs of BP which was the origional charge for the 25-35 caliber. Here's the link ... http://imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

[beefyz]

Totally blind.... in fairy land ? Maybe i'm not as smart as you , but at least i never insulted people or was condescending when trying to help. YOUR POST DIDN"T OPEN, for whatever reason. If it had i would have thanked you sufficiently . You don't see me accusing you of not knowing how to post something.
Thank you for the TB info, which i already have access to. It would have been my last resort. Just wanted to see what the rest of you guys were doing. Sorry for your inconvenience

[Outpost75]

Lee data sheet they enclose with .25-35 dies may be helpful.

200588

[beefyz]

Yes, Thank You, the 90gr lead was my original start ( I am using the Lee die set). My intent was to try and find data for some of the "larger" boolits as i remembered seeing data for them a few years ago when i originally saw it in that book i mentioned above. Siting up VERY late last night, I found that page again from a posting on another site, and was able to re-copy it. I'm certain JB above had it also for me but for whatever reason his link just wouldn't open.
Ironically, i had earlier called Lyman and Alliant and even they didn't have this page/nor data. They did caution about using old data as powder make-up could have varied over time. JBs suggestion about TB was a good one and I will also pursue that.
Thanks to all who replied......
z

[Texas by God]

Sorry John Boy; the 25-35 and 30-30 were both introduced in 1895 as SMOKELESS cartridges. Get your facts straight before your tirade next time.
Best, Thomas

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Tapatalk

[Outpost75]

The .25-20 was first introduced as a BP load in 1895, but went to smokeless soon afterward.

Whelen, Townsend. The American Rifle, The Century Co., New York, 1918, pp.220-223

[Texas by God]

Yes it was. AKA the 25 WCF
However the 25-35 Win was only called the 25-35. Except Marlin's version the 25-36. FWIW.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[reed1911]

FWIW you can get a used copy of Complete guide to Handloading on amazon for about 50-60 dollars. Not cheap but not the 500.00 some are asking for a copy.

[Good Cheer]

What, no paper patch loads?

[Good Cheer]

Lost a lot in relocating but found initial stability testing notes from 2010 for Lyman #257325 and BC2. Nothing spectacular but no problems. Starting charge was developed by calculations.
And I need to figger out a paper patch boolit.

[ulav8r]

Hi. Need some help w/this bit of nostalgia. Even though lead is supposed to be a problem with the 1:8 twist of this rifle, i've had pretty good luck with it. Trouble is i'm looking to expand my powder options and can't find data for it. I saw way back a very old book, "Complete guide to Handloading" pg 354 had the whole page dedicated to 25-35. My copied page was blurry and out of focus. Does anyone have a copy of this page and can forward it here ? Would be VERY appreciated. Looking for lead data for 85-88s, 100s, 110-115s, 125s. I'd like to use powders i've used in my other levers like 32-20 & 30-30 like 2400, 4759, red dot, 4227, Trail Boss, etc . Anyone have any data similar on any of these? Thanks

I have the pdf of that book, 458 pages. Do not have a way to send the one page. It is clear. Do not remember where I found it, but it was available online.

Still available: http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ClassicWorks/complete_guide_to_handloading%20-%20sharpe%20-%201937.pdf

[beefyz]

THAT WAS UNBELIEVABLE !!!!! , and Thank You. Yours opened up and it was even clearer than the copy I found late last night, so i copied it again ! Didn't know that book was that rare. Only yourself & John Boy seem to have a copy of it so far. I've been reloading since '79 and about 90% of those powders don't even exist anymore, but at least its a start for the 2400 i was interested in, and possibly the Unique. I've already made up 5 loads to test with it but its been raining like mad here . When i test them i'll post results; maybe others would like the challenge of making this work. I've read so much about how bad lead seems to perform, i took that as a challenge. I've always liked the .25 calibers and think they are highly underrated. That's the reason i got this caliber 4 mths ago. Thanks again for your time Ulav ....

[Outpost75]

beefyz,

Please post your results, because inquiring minds want to know. I would be a bit cautious in using the heavier charges listed for old Hercules #2400 by Sharpe, not so much that the powders are different, Larry Gibson's pressure tests reflected only normal lot-to-lot variation, but much old data was not pressure tested, but work up using subjective pressure signs which are less reliable. Old Lyman data also has some #2400 loads which I would not approach!

I did get VERY good results with 7 grs. of #2400 with the RCBS 25-85CM plainbased cast bullet in the .25-35, firing them in an 1894 Winchester with 26" barrel.

Firing Remington jacketed 87-grain softpoints in the .25-35, velocity was about 1400 f.p.s. using 10 grains of #2400 and shooting into water jugs expanded them 0.32 caliber, with no appreciable weight loss. Drive these same thinly jacketed soft-point bullets very much faster than they were designed to go, and they fragment violently, making a non-ricochet varmint load.

Testing the 87-grain Remington softpoints in the .25-35 with 14 grs. of #2400 gave 1950 f.p.s. and blew apart a Food Lion meat manager’s special frying chicken, 50 yards away, to smithereens, scattering pieces of bird over a 15 ft. radius. Neighborhood cats, raccoons and foxes appreciated this, as by morning even not even a trace was left!

[FromTheWoods]

Daniel at "The Bull Shop" keeps me in cast bullets--several calibers. He knows his business and helps shooters find the proper bullet for their needs. Turn-around time is short--from putting in an order with him, to when the bullets arrive on your doorstep is a couple weeks or so at most. I have a comfortable supply of his gas-checked .25-35 bullets.

http://bullshop.weebly.com/-25-caliber-cast-bullets.html His list of caliber/bullets is under the "more" button on the home page.

[beefyz]

Outpost. yes, i will. Going out of state for awhile but when i get these tested i will post results using this thread.
From the woods.... hahahah, he's my source for my boolits !!!!!!

[FromTheWoods]

That's good news. Daniel is a fine man.

And, since I'm considering changing my .25-35 load, you'd be a great help if you would try H4895 and Reloader 7 in your testing. I could sit on the porch and enjoy iced lemonade while waiting for your updates!

[beefyz]

Hi to all. Back from my out of state jaunt and from the range with some results. Some pertinent background. Gun is appx 2007/’08 Win 94 in 25-35 with 1:8 twist, 20” barrel. I wasn’t satisfied with the 117gr jacketed Hornadys being the only bullet readily available, I wanted to shoot lead, even though these can be pretty hard to find unless you’re casting your own, which I don’t. Despite the fact that from many sources lead is rather difficult in the 1:8 twist, I wanted to find out the hard way.
Source of boolits- The 117 jacketed Hornadys, for comparison. At appx $22-25/box, not exactly a plinking bullet. For lead, The Bullshop has a wide assortment and Danny is a good guy to talk too. His article on using Pb vs GC in the same grainage & obtaining different results was interesting. I used his 87,100,& 120 FNs all available w&wo checks. Hornady’s 117s are going for $23, their new 110gr FTXs @ $24. A factory box of the new FTXs went for $30 at a recent show and didn’t shoot well at all. As usual, if you’re set up already to do so, casting your own boolits is the BIGGEST money saver.
Source of data- Oldest data came from The Complete Guide to Handloading, just to give me a reference for certain powders. Most data obtained from “Load Data” site of which I’m a member. Issues referenced included HL 116, 204, 239, & 296. Venturino book “Leverguns of the old west”. Lee & Hogdon book & annuals. Articles by Venturino, Haviland, Simpson, & Quinn in various gun magazines. Another source I became aware of is a Paco Kelly book “Lever & Handguns” ($20) which has a section devoted to the 25-35. He may have additional info on loads. His earlier book “An American Heritage/Leverguns “ is available for $159, content unknown. Lacking exact data on some loads I extrapolated as best I could based on my 40 yrs of reloading and loads never exceeding the published data on similar loads.
Goal- To shoot LEAD. My hunting days are over. I didn’t want to spend $45+ on old factory ammo, if you can find them, to put holes in paper. The new Hornady 110s are not that reasonable either. I did not want to shoot the 60 & 75 gr Jacketed bullets, if you can still find them, at paper. I didn’t want full powerhouse loads nor mouse fart loads seeking instead light/moderate loads somewhere between the roughly 1,400-1,600 fps published and at a reasonable cost to reload. I’m presently reloading a box/20 for appx $6. Sorry, no chrono. Results based on published data where applicable .
Results – As always, this is FYI only. This is what I found to shoot well in my rifle. Your results may be different. Shoot at your own risk ! Use as a guideline to start as I did and watching for signs of problems.
Best results were obtained using SR 4759, not made anymore, but I have 4lbs of it; @9gr w/87gr PB w/WLR, @11 w/100 GC w/WLR, @12 w/120 GC w/WLR.
Next best was with IMR 4227, @ 10.5 gr w/ 87gr PB or GC, and 10.5 gr w/ 100gr PB, Both w/ WLR.
Accurate 5744 was good @10gr w/100gr PB & GC w/ WLR.
Titegroup @ 6-6.5 gr w/87gr PB & GC w/WLR.
Alliant 2400 @ 10gr w/87 gr GC w/WLR.
Alliant Unique @ 8.6 w/100gr. PB & GC w/WLR.
Once my windage & elevation on the factory open sights was adjusted, all these loads shot to point of aim giving roughly 1-3” grps @ 50 yds. Another powder suggested for use was Trail Boss. Although using this in 32-20 & .30-30 “light” loads, published loads in the 25-35 were mouse-fart or shot 8-10” low to point. The Hodgdon max load of 8gr was no better.
I also tested some loads using the Hornady 117gr jacketed roundnose for comparison. Existing published loads were full powered & spot on & included;
Benchmark @ 19.5 or 20gr, w/H117gr w/R 9 ½ P & Varget @ 20-21 w/H117gr w/R 9 ½ P .
Other loads I’m working on from published data are IMR 3031 @ 18.1 w/120gr GC w/R 9 ½ P, & BL-C2 @ 22gr w/100gr GC w/ R 9 ½ P. I’m trying to develop a “light’ load from Hodgdon using H 4895 @ 60% and working up; H4895 @ 17.5 w/100 PB w/R 9 ½ P shows promise but still has to be tweaked. I ran out of the 100GC and want to try this also.
Thanks to all for comments, help, and/or advice. Just trying to give back a little after other guys have helped me on this site before. If you’re interested in a challenge as I was, this may give you a place to start.

[Outpost75]

Thanks for the update. Please post some pics of your better targets with load data on them if you have a chance.

[beefyz]

HI all. Had another GOOD testing day. Tried to upload the photo, and its a no go. Read the "How to upload photo" and that didn't help. Any suggestions? Would love to show the photo. Did additional loads....

[beefyz]

Don't understand what happened above... click image, and you should be able to go back and forth to see better. Sorry, best i was able to do....

Target was at 50 yds. Open factory sights. All boolits are from Bullshop. Brass, Winchester, .30-30s resized to 25-35.
Orange tags - SR 4759 @ 10 gr w/87 PB. WLR. I always seem to "pull" one off.
Green tags - Titegroup @ 7 w/100 PB .WLR. Again, pulled one.
Orange tags with slashes - Titegroup @ 7 w/87 PB. WLR. Ditto
Pink tags - 2400 @ 12 w/125 GC. WLR.
Yellow tags - BL-C2 @ 23 w/ 100GC . Rem 9 1/2 P. NOTE- 4 Above were light to moderate loads. This was pretty close to a factory load.
Green tags with slashes - H4895 @ 17.5 w/100 GC. Rem 9 1/2 P. Developed load using Hodgdon's 60% formula, based upon similar Load data loadings, should be around 1,800fps. Not a plinker but not unpleasant to shoot. Give it a bit more elevation and .....

Judging by some of the pictures Venturino posted in his book and the fact that this was with lead that wasn't supposed to work as well as others, I don't think i've done too bad with these 65 yr old eyes.

[wwmartin]

Interesting data.
I'm finishing up a #5 rolling block in 25-35 with a 32" / 9.5 twist barrel. Breakin load is 23gr of 30-31 and the Hornady 117.
It is good to find data for cast lead. I have several molds in 25 caliber that were bought when I was playing with a Marlin 1893 in 25-36M and the 25-20. I'm ancious to see how the 25-35 compares with the Marlin 25-36 with a 1:9 twist. It didn't like lead.

Bill

[beefyz]

If you're interested, I found some printed data from "Load Data".
Using the Lyman cast 111, #257325, w/IMR 3031 @ 18gr for 1,801
@ 19gr for 1,873
Hornady 117 RNSP w/IMR 3031 @ 22gr for 2,062
@ 23gr for 2,181
@ 25gr for 2,388

I also was testing the Bullshop 125GC w/3031 @ 18.1 and got 3" groups @ 50 yds, just a bit larger than my H4895 results above. Its a bit "heavy" for me and not what i was after.
Yes, that 1:8 seems to cause headaches for many using lead. On the other hand , didn't have a bad load with the Hornady 117s.
How did you manage to find brass for 25-36? Hear its even harder to find than the 25-35, although these past few months Hornady & Winchester( after W telling me they would not be making any more) did make a run of them. I got some of that but found i can resize .30-30 pretty easy, which i did to use in my test loads.