I want to get into Black Powder cartridge shooting, Help...lol

[vikingson57]

I have been shooting my entire life...started with a little Stevens 22. I just turned 60 and seriously want to get into Black Powder Cartridge shooting. I have an old Springfield trap door saddle ring carbine that I have shot in the past but not seriously. I have been looking at C. Sharps and Shiloh Sharps rifles. Spendy no matter how one looks at it. Plus not sure about waiting a year or more if I order one. I am partial to 1885 highwalls, to me they are just a better sleeker looking rifle, beside I have an old highwall 22 lr musket. But I like the looks of the 1874 Sharps as well. I have been told to shy away from the italian rifles. But seems thats about all I can afford to get started. I am looking at 45-70, though I was also reading up on the 40-70 Sharps straight case. Any suggestions from you fellow shooters would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for your sage advice.

[Don McDowell]

You might consider a C Sharps 1875 if you budget just won't allow for the additional to get either an 1885 or a 1874 Sharps.
The 40-70 ss is a pretty good cartridge, but I would suggest not going with a light weight barrel in it, the recoil can be a bit stout. The 44-70 st would be another possibility if you go the CSA route.
The 45-70 is a good do it all cartridge, and components are a bit easier to come by.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

There's a 1874 Shiloh Sharps .45-70 at the Boise Gun Company for $2,200.00. It's got the heavy barrel for competition and nice wood. There are used Pedersoli's out there to had at a deal too.

I ordered my 1874 from Shiloh in .45-70 and waited 2 years. Shiloh only takes about $250.00 down, then just put a little money away every month until your rifle is ready. They're worth the cost and the wait.

I regret not buying and shooting a Pedersoli during those 2 years.

I think everyone will suggest the .45-70, especially for your first rifle.

[Boz330]

I have a Pedersoli hunter model that I picked up on sale at Cabela's. Mat finish and straight walnut stock but it shoots very well. I have used it locally in BPCRT matches out to 1200yds. I have also picked up a few wins here and there with it. I can assure you that it shoots way better than I am capable of shooting it. Like Don said, for starters it is hard to beat a 45-70. This one is the easiest BPCR that I have ever developed a load for.

I have a C-sharps 75 in 38-55 and a C-Sharps 1885 in 40-65 and they are also excellent guns. And not to slight anyone a Shiloh on order. DO NOT pass on a Pedersoli because they are Italian made. There are some bad Italian rifles and right now IAB comes to mind since I had one for a short time, and it was junk but I didn't pay much for it.

Bob

[KCSO]

Avoid Pedrati IAB like the plague. Pedersoli guns are a ok for a starter and will get you going and will shoot pretty darn good.

[Lead pot]

There is another option. https://www.cparifles.com/ I have and shoot them in completion and they shoot very good. I never had to wait more then four months to get one build.
Plus you can switch barrels to different calibers in minutes.

[EDG]

Pedersoli makes decent rifles and you can save a bundle buying a used one for $800 to $1000. Certainly the Pedersolis are good enough to shoot while you wait on a US made Sharps.
Some Ubertis were also made by Pedersoli. I think the rest of the Italian stuff is a poor value at any price.

Probably the best deal on a BPCR is the best deal you can find on a like new Browning 1885 (BPCR model only). This is the rifle with the heavy half round half octagonal barrel. They came from the factory with a decent set of sights too.

[Bent Ramrod]

The big question is: Whaddayawanna do with the rifle?

Find some local BPCR shoots and go watch and meet-and-greet. You'll get a very good idea of what's the best to start with, at no cost whatsoever. You may be invited to take a few shots, and may even get a line on used guns for sale. These may or may not be "affordable," but sometimes a deal will show up. You may get a set of fancy sights on it for a big discount over new ones. If you are just shooting for fun, the standard barrel sights, or the Italian tang sights, will do fine. Competiton is another matter; there, the best is none too good.

I would not turn my nose up at a Pedersoli. They are better made than the run-of-the-mine original Sharps guns, and generally shoot like a house afire. I started out with one that had been rechambered to .45-2.6" and if it wasn't too heavy for BPCR Silhouette, and the fact that I'm an American Hoarder, I'd have stopped there; it's a great rifle. Start a "gun fund" after you get your Pedersoli, and by the time you are dissatisfied with it for some reason (not likely the shooting quality) you ought to be able to afford whatever you want.

I had the loading data for the .45-2.6" since I bought it used. Otherwise a .45-70 would have been greatly preferable. The Army spent the equivalent of a gazillion of today's worthless shin-plasters developing the cartridge, and as a result, it is the easiest to get shooting well, and the best intro to BPC loading.

[country gent]

I have a pederrsoli / cabellas long range sharps that's a tack driver with 535 grn bullets and Black powder. Its a nice rifle with decent wood fit and finish. Not on the same level as CPA, C Sharps, or Shiloh but it is nice and was less money. Mine was purchased around 2005 and was on sale for $1000.00. I also have a CPA Shillouette model in 40-65 that's a beautiful rifle and I believe was delivered in 8 weeks. My C Sharps high wall is 38-55 and also a very nice rifle and wait was around 10 weeks. My C Sharps Hepburn is 45-90 and again a great rifle and very good looking wait was around 10-12 weeks on this one. ( This one was purchased when the change from badger to Green mountain barrels was taking place). Last is a Al Story sharps brochardt in 45-70. One plus to the Shiloh, C Sharps, and CPA is the options offered to you when ordering. You get pretty much just what you want. Pedersolis are off the rack for a given model. I am happy with the calibers I have and all are more than useable and effective. 38-55 is great lighter recoil and less components used per load. A faster twist barrel for heavy bullets is nice if long range 500-600 yds is to be shot. Mine is a 1-12 twist Mc Gowen barrel 30" long. The 40-65 is also a great round and shoots good brass is readily available 400 grn bullets work well out to 600 yds or more. Mine is 1-16 twist. 45-70 is the old stand by round that works well all around and is easy to load. Mine are both 1-18 twist. In these I use 500-550 grn bullets the 45-70 does use more powder and lead per round recoil is heavier than the previous but not out of line. The 45-90 is a fun round Mine is also 1-18 twist and it sees mostly 550 grn or 530 grn PP bullets. Very accurate and fun to shoot. Recoil is heavier powder use is more than any others. ( only about 70 rds per lb of powder). One thing to do is stop at some area matches and see whats there talk and ask questions when time allows. See what works and feels right to you.

[vikingson57]

thank you...I will look at the 1875. I have found an auction for a Browning 1885 bpcr in 40/65...Love to find one in 45-70 instead. I am also looking at some Pedersolis now that everyone is telling me that they are pretty good guns...at least until I can afford what I want. Thanks again

[vikingson57]

I would eventually want to get into long range shooting...but if I can get into the high country with it and drop and elk as well then all is good. As much as I love to hunt that is only for a few weeks out of the year so the rest of my time would be in practicing and finding some places to shoot distance...and eventually try my hand at competition...I am sure I will never shoot as well as any rifle I get can. Thanks for the advice.

[McLintock]

You might want to put a WTB post in the Swapping and Selling area and see what floats to the top, might find that Browning BPCR in 45-70. I shot BPCR for several years with a Browning 45-70, but had to quit due to back problems. My current rifles, which I didn't get to shoot much, are in 38-50 Remington and 38-55 Winchester, so not the right calibers. The 38-50 is on a C. Sharps action with a John King installed barrel and MVA sights, and you might get lucky and find something like that in 45-70, but the 38-50 is a lot easier on your shoulder. Don't know about packing a BPCR rifle around for hunting, they are a little heavy for that, particularly at any kind of altitude. Just my 2 cents.
McLintock

[country gent]

Watch Baco, Arizona sharpshooters, and the auction sites for used rifles they turn up quite regularly. Buffalo arm company usually lists a few consighnment guns listed and the pedersoli line. Trac of the wolf also may show some

[country gent]

One other plus to a used rifle is you can usually get load data for it with it and occasionally the accuterments for it ( moulds, dies, blow tubes ect ect.)

[vikingson57]

A quick question for you all...barrels. What is the main advantage/disadvantage of the straight octagon vs the tapered octagon vs the half round? Is it purely a balance issue or does it have to do with heat dissipation which can distort the site picture as the heat waves come off the barrel after many rounds of shooting? This is for long range target shooting. Thanks again for all the great replies.

[NSB]

I had several Pedersoli rifles in Sharps and High Walls and they all shot great. The one I got from Cabela's shot as well as the high end one I bought from Cherry's. They have some of the best barrels money can buy regardless of where they're made. Pedersoli is a modern plant with high end CNC equipment and their products have won many, many shoots. Do a search for Bad *** Wallace on here. I think he owns about everything they make :smile: and he's always writing about them on here. I didn't shoot competition with mine, but they'd shoot 1moa at 100 and 200 yards with the right load and bullet. No problem killing deer with them. Good luck. One note here: You'll pay as much for a high end Pedersoli as you will for an American made rifle. If you get that high, you might as well go American.

[Lead pot]

I started with the Pedersoli Quigley rifle when Cabela first had them in stock, mostly the Shiloh had a 5 year waiting period. The pedersoli shot well but it was a pain getting it to shoot well with the long .400" plus free bore the chamber had. The first time out I shot it with the tang sight the rifle came with and that thing flopped all over the place so I took it home and tightened the staff so the sideways flip-flop was not as bad. But the next day shooting it was loose again and it ended up in the weeds behind me, didn't even use a screw driver to tale it off :) The sight was not the only short coming on this rifle. The Mainspring broke twice and the hammer was on the soft side and ended up looking like a ballpeen hammer. Maybe they have changed since I got mine......don't know.
Now I have 7 Shiloh's and several other powder rifles made by Browning and CPA. The Pedersoli is still hanging on the wall and I'm hoping someday I get back home from my shooting circuits it will be gone. :)
Put your money getting one of the three I mentioned above new or used.

[big bore 99]

I've been shooting a Pedretti 1874 Sharps in 45-70 for years. No problems except for adjusting the set triggers. Nice accuracy with 405 HB and 500 gr paper patched.

[vikingson57]

I had several Pedersoli rifles in Sharps and High Walls and they all shot great. The one I got from Cabela's shot as well as the high end one I bought from Cherry's. They have some of the best barrels money can buy regardless of where they're made. Pedersoli is a modern plant with high end CNC equipment and their products have won many, many shoots. Do a search for Bad *** Wallace on here. I think he owns about everything they make :smile: and he's always writing about them on here. I didn't shoot competition with mine, but they'd shoot 1moa at 100 and 200 yards with the right load and bullet. No problem killing deer with them. Good luck. One note here: You'll pay as much for a high end Pedersoli as you will for an American made rifle. If you get that high, you might as well go American.
Thanks, I have been doing a lot of looking and your are right...a high end Pedersoli is in the same price range as used Shiloh or C. Sharps in their basic configurations. My thoughts are to get a basic line of Pedersoli and then either accept the wait and order a new one or just find the cash and keep searching for a used one that meets my desires and snatch it up. I am just a poor carpenter and its not too likely I will ever find my way to owning more than one high end rifle. But I can get one of the italian ones and practice with it until I get the American one. Thanks

[vikingson57]

I've been shooting a Pedretti 1874 Sharps in 45-70 for years. No problems except for adjusting the set triggers. Nice accuracy with 405 HB and 500 gr paper patched.


I am sure there are good and bad of all the different makers. I have read a couple of bad write ups on the Shiloh and C. Sharps as well...I think it always comes down to trust and some luck. I have just heard more positives about the Pedersoli's than the Pedretti guns. And Customer service is huge as well. Nice to read that you have had good luck with yours. Thanks for sharing with me.

[Boz330]

I am sure there are good and bad of all the different makers. I have read a couple of bad write ups on the Shiloh and C. Sharps as well...I think it always comes down to trust and some luck. I have just heard more positives about the Pedersoli's than the Pedretti guns. And Customer service is huge as well. Nice to read that you have had good luck with yours. Thanks for sharing with me.

A lot depends on how serious a competitor you are. Personally I shoot for fun and the only guy I have to beat is me. If I am improving I'm a happy camper. Every once in a while I get lucky and pick up some hardware, but there is no money in most of these matches just bragging rights. I have been a serious competitor in several different sports and when it wasn't fun anymore I quit. Easier at my age to just enjoy the sport.

Bob

[NSB]

A lot depends on how serious a competitor you are. Personally I shoot for fun and the only guy I have to beat is me. If I am improving I'm a happy camper. Every once in a while I get lucky and pick up some hardware, but there is no money in most of these matches just bragging rights. I have been a serious competitor in several different sports and when it wasn't fun anymore I quit. Easier at my age to just enjoy the sport.

Bob
Well stated Bob. I'd suggest you start out for fun and see where it goes. You might find you do well with what you start with and if you want to go further you can always sell what you have and move "up". I think you'll find out that just being part of the sport and being around a lot of like minded people is the real reward. I was a top shooter in several sports for many years and I finally decided shooting for fun was, well.....more fun. Good luck to you.

[vikingson57]

I tend to be very competitive, I used to race off road motorcycles and was pretty successful at it, but as Bob states I am about fun now. I want to be the best I can be at what ever I take up, but I only have to beat my last score..and I agree with NSB that half the fun is just being around others with the same passion and who enjoy the sport too..
Thanks a lot.
Charley

[Boz330]

I tend to be very competitive, I used to race off road motorcycles and was pretty successful at it, but as Bob states I am about fun now. I want to be the best I can be at what ever I take up, but I only have to beat my last score..and I agree with NSB that half the fun is just being around others with the same passion and who enjoy the sport too..
Thanks a lot.
Charley
BINGO, give the man a cigar. The folks involved in this sport are probably some of the most generous with info ect or to just have a beer with.

Bob

[vikingson57]

I'll take that cigar and smile..thanks Bob.

[38-72]

Take a look at the Browning/Winchester BPCR 1885. It has to be the BPCR model and not one of the other Browning single shots.
This model came with a decent set of soule sights. They came in 45-70 and 40-65 (rarer 45-90 and 50-90) calibers. They also came from the factory with 30" Badger barrels (kind of the gold standard for BPCR barrels). I have 2, my son has 1 and several friends have them also. They are competitive right out the box. And the best part is that they priced at $1500 to 1800 range. If you buy one and don’t like it, you can always sell it and get your money back out of it. For starters, I recommend the 45-70. Components are easy to come by.

[Don McDowell]

[QUOTE] If you buy one and don’t like it, you can always sell it and get your money back out of it./QUOTE]

That right there is the most overlooked bit of advice given. Yes you can buy rifles for less, but take a long hard look at what that same rifle sells for on the used market.. If a rifle losses 30% + of it's over the counter price, just taking it out of the store, that's not much of a return on investment..

[Lead pot]

Here is a complete equipment list used at the NRA black powder cartridge rifle silhouette matches this year.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4bmwocbyye9blwm/2017%20Nationals%20Equipment%20List%20Surveys.xlsx ?dl=0

[EDG]

Pedersoli barrel making processes


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOo-muzMRp0

[EDG]

When you have the ability to buy a used gun with confidence you can get a significant price break.
BPCR rifles take a bit of effort to shoot a significant amount so I would say more than half of the rifles have never been shot more than once or twice.
I don't mind paying 30% less for a very slightly used rifle because the first time I take it to the range I will probably shoot it more than what the original owner ever did.
I have 2 Pedersolis and I don't think either was ever fired more than 5 rounds. Both are higher end Pedersolis. One is a Billy Dixon with the oil finished high grade walnut. The other is the long range model. I paid about half of the list prices shown on Cherry's web page. As long as I take care of them I should easily get my money back if I ever sell them.



[QUOTE] If you buy one and don’t like it, you can always sell it and get your money back out of it./QUOTE]

That right there is the most overlooked bit of advice given. Yes you can buy rifles for less, but take a long hard look at what that same rifle sells for on the used market.. If a rifle losses 30% + of it's over the counter price, just taking it out of the store, that's not much of a return on investment..

[Boz330]

My Godson paid $1000 for his high end Pedersoli and it listed for $1800+. When I looked at the breach block I couldn't see any indication that it had ever rubbed up the back of a cartridge case. I think a lot of people buy them for the neat factor and find out that they are heavy and more difficult to load for BP than smokeless and lose interest.
Pesonally I don't buy a firearm with the idea of what I can get on resale, I buy it to shoot. In many cases I've made money just because I kept a gun long enough for inflation to give me a perceived profit. And some I have lost money on because I lost interest and wanted to move on to something else.

Bob

[vikingson57]

I always figure that unless I am buying a classic vintage firearm, the ability to make money isn't something I can plan on...The guns are truly only worth what the right buyer is willing to pay for it. I have sold guns for more than they were worth because someone wanted it badly enough to offer that kind of money. I have also lost money on guns, but I enjoyed every shot fired and never looked at it as a loss. I shoot every gun I own...

Thanks Bob