Buck & Ball - Once again

[faustus]

Ok, so I am new to shotshell reloading .... but I did quite a bit of research on buck and ball loads over the winter ... ordered components ... did the calculations ... and loaded some shells. I haven't shot them yet ... but next week end will be the day ... and I will report back here with the results ... so stay tuned ... ;)

There are basically two types of buck & ball loads that I am experimenting with:

1.) Loads that are inspired by Ajay (VdoMemorie)

Here the link to the original post:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?153045-VdoMemories-Blazing-Buck-amp-Ball-or-Buck-amp-Slugs

But it seems the images are gone ... and these images were great to explain things. Luckily I created a PDF from that post ... here a link to a PDF that I did:
http://kalypso.net/temp/Buck_and_Ball_Reloading_12ga.pdf

Here a picture of what I have loaded so far:
200343

2.) Variation of the Dixies Tri-Ball load

And the other load I am experimenting with is a variation of Dixies Tri-Ball load. Basically I am replacing 2 of the 3 .600 with some sort of smaller buckshot, and keeping the payload close to the original load.

Here the original Tri-Ball recipe:
(1) 12 ga 3" Cheddite, Fiocchi, or Federal Gol Metal hull
(2) 28/29 grs of Alliant Blue Dot
(3) Precision Relooding Orange Wad TUPRWW123
(4) Three .600" hard cast round balls
(5) Precision Reloading buffer
(6) Thin overshot wad.
(7) Roll crimp

Here the link to the post:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?47198-Tri-Ball-Revisited!

And here a picture of the components that I am using:
200344

Voila ... so much for now .... hopefully I can post some results after next week end ....

[faustus]

Can you give me some more info on that shell on the right?

Thanks,

Kraken Fan #69

KrakenFan69, that is a 3" shell with a 7/8 oz Lee Drive-key slug and 3 layers of #4 buckshot. They stack with 7 pellets in a row ... so that is 21 #4 buckshot pellets. It is a 1 7/8 oz payload ... and the load is inspired by Ajay. If you need more infos, have a look at the links above ....

Hope this helps ....

[djryan13]

Thanks for posting. Will need to try this someday. What is the main purpose of this load? Cool factor? Hunting? Painful defense?

[faustus]

Thanks for posting. Will need to try this someday. What is the main purpose of this load? Cool factor? Hunting? Painful defense?

Well, these loads are inspired by campfire talk about bear attacks and wolf encounters ... stories about dangerous critters raiding camp at night ... and the desire for a "one load does it all" that you can take along on that one month canoe trip far far up north ....

How useful are they? I don't know ... I let you decide.

For me they are a fun project to learn about many aspects of shotshell reloading. You have to deal with one main projectile (slug or ball) and its accuracy ... and you have to deal with buckshot patterns ... and all of this in one load .... doesn't that sound like fun? ;)

[faustus]

Ok, so I got a chance to try my buck and ball loads today .... and I shot 3 loads at 30 yards and 50 yards. I was shooting an 870 with rifle sights and a fixed improved cylinder choke.

Here the results .... 50 yards (50 meters):

200768

And here at 30 yards ... 30 meters:

200769

200770

200771

200772

I was able to recover some wads ... the WAA12L cups of the Lee slug looked mostly good.

However, the brush wad cup for the 690 round ball got totally ripped .... not sure what happened there ...

200773

200774

?????

And one thing I realized ... the loads with #4 buckshot seemed more accurate than the ones with #1 buckshot ...

#4 buckshot seems to provide a better and more even base for the slug/ball .....

Voila ... that is it for now ....

Thoughts anyone?

[djryan13]

What about putting slug on bottom? Very "even base". Once it exits barrel, it will slow down faster than buck shot anyway. It would also look just as cool imo.

[faustus]

Here a picture of the Gualandi LB12 Light Brush Wad and how it looked after shooting.

Basically, I cut the cup off the wad with a knife and used the cup in the 690 round ball load.
It seems the 690 ball gets completely pushed into the cup ... and the cup then acts as a patch/wad to center the ball in the barrel.

I checked the fit of the .690 ball with my barrel and the ball will roll right trough the barrel ... passes the improved cylinder choke and pops out the other end .... just by gravity ....

I was really surprised by how these cups get torn up ..... ??

200810

[faustus]

What about putting slug on bottom? Very "even base". Once it exits barrel, it will slow down faster than buck shot anyway. It would also look just as cool imo.

Djryan, it is my understanding that buckshot will loose its velocity much quicker than a heavier projectile. I would assume that having the ball or slug underneath the buckshot will open up the buckshot pattern even more. The ball/slug would act like a wedge to the buckshot group. But that is my assumption only .... I havn't tried this yet.

Basically I am trying to achieve decent accuracy with the slug/ball ... while keeping the buckshot pattern as tight as possible ...

Has anybody any ideas how to improve performance? Meaning achieving better accuracy with the round ball ... and tightening the buckshot pattern?

Here the components for the round ball load:

200343

1.) Fiocchi 2 3/4” 12ga (clear)
2.) Fiocchi primer
3.) Longshot Powder
4.) X12X gas seal
5.) .170 Nitro Card
6.) 14 Buckshot Pellets (#4 Buck) / or 8 Pellets (#1 Buck)
7.) .170 Nitro Card (plus an extra .125 card with #4 Buckshot)
8.) Light Brush 12 Cup
9.) 690 Round Ball
10.) Fold crimp

[longbow]

That failed cup under the ball reminds me of my early round ball days with recovered shotcups having torn bottoms and failed gas seals. In that case, the cushion leg pushing on the shotcup tries to swage it around the ball as there is no support.

Adding a nitro card wad or two and a small scoop of COW under the ball solved that. Harder to do in your case I think. Hmmm... I see you have a nitro card wad between buckshot and ball cup so not much more you could do there I don't think.

I'm inclined to think a Tri-Ball or two ball load would be more effective than buck and ball.

If you get a decent hit with a ball the critter is going to feel it. If the ball misses or poor hit and buckshot makes contact, I think that would make for an injured and upset critter that would be looking for the source of its discomfort.

At least with a two ball or Tri-Ball load if a ball or two hits reasonably well the critter will know it. Both are supposed to hit quite close together at moderate ranges. At 30 yards I think large ball grouping and terminal performance would be better than buckshot and ball. My opinion only.

Longbow

[KrakenFan69]

Oops. Wrong Thread. Thanks for the info on the Buck and Ball loads.



Kraken Fan #69

[Eldon]

Interesting but nowhere near as accurate or deadly as a brenneke slug.

That's all we carry in our 870s when riding in bear country.

http://www.brennekeusa.com/

[jmort]

"I'm inclined to think a Tri-Ball or two ball load would be more effective than buck and ball."

Me too

[jmort]

"brenneke slug."

Get the green ones
Same slug as the Red special forces penetrator or whatever it is called, for less $$$$
Higher antimony
That or the Magnum Crush
I like the green ones, they penetrate like crazy
Now that Dixie is no longer making slugs, I agree, go Brenneke

[RMc]

"brenneke slug."

Get the green ones
Same slug as the Red special forces penetrator or whatever it is called, for less $$$$
Higher antimony
That or the Magnum Crush
I like the green ones, they penetrate like crazy
Now that Dixie is no longer making slugs, I agree, go Brenneke

Dixie Slugs has recently resumed production of the -Dixie IXL-DGS* / 870 grains @ 1200 fps from a 20" bbl.

*Dangerous Game Slug

http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

[faustus]

Ok, here is an update for the buck & ball load. This is what I tested yesterday.

690 round ball with 21 pellets of #4 Buck

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Load Data:

Hull: Cheddite 3”, clear hull, 12ga
Primer: Cheddite 209
Powder: Blue Dot
Gas Seal: X12X
Payload: 930 grains (2.1/8 oz), one 690 round ball and 21 pellets #4Buck
Powder charge: 29 gr of Blue Dot (Lee Powder Dipper 2.5cc)


Column:

1. Powder
2. X12X
3. 21 Buckshot Pellets (#4 Buck)
4. .125 Nitro Card
5. .170 Nitro Card
6. Light Brush 12 Cup
7. 690 Round Ball
8. Fold crimp

Now I recovered 2 690 balls and which were fired into a sandbank. Both show absolutely no deformation. And that surprised me, .... because all other factory slugs that I normally shoot are deformed when I dig them up.

And I recovered one of the "Light Brush 12 Cup" and this time the cup is not torn apart and it seems the cup did stay with the ball till it hit the sandbank ... that is where I recovered it.

204198

So, I am wondering if my powder load does not give me enough velocity? And I have to say I don't have a chronograph available to me and in order to measure the velocity. Recoil felt normal or ok like shooting a 1oz slug.

Any thoughts?

With these components, how far can I go with the powder load? How many grains of BlueDot would you use?

[jdfoxinc]

Years ago a writer for muzzle loader magazine wrote about B&B. His conclusion was the buckshot patterned better loader on top of the ball.

[GhostHawk]

jdfoxinc I have a question sir. Assuming buck was loaded on top of the ball. As the load goes downrange, is not the buckshot going to slow faster than the ball? Is not then the ball going to be moving up through the buckshot? Possibly disrupting pattern?

Would it be different for a muzzle loader than for a modern loaded cartridge?
IE does the ball on the bottom seal the bore better resulting in better pattern?

Not disputing, asking. Nicely :)

[duckear]

what sort of press are you using?

[PerpetualStudent]

That's an interesting question Ghosthawk.

Slightly related, I remember reading (years ago) about the original rangers loading 2 balls. The first one normal, the second one deeply scored so that it would break apart on firing. This effectively gave you buck and ball but with less chance of the buck rolling out.

[Dan Cash]

Regarding improvement of buckshot pattern in this buck & ball loading: Have you or anyone else considered recreating the old Kynoch caged or net shot loading? The shot was contained in a copper or bronze net bag which served to hold the charge together during flight for some distance down range.

[faustus]

Here an update with respect to the buck & ball load I am tinkering with.

I did a slug penetration test today and I tested my buck & ball load against a variety of commercial slugs.

The target were 4 pine boards stacked one behind each other …. and each board was 1.5 inches thick.

I shot the following slugs from around 7 to 8 yards (meters):

206902

(link to larger image (http://kalypso.net/temp/SPT_slugs_12ga.jpg))


From left to right:

1. Rio Brenneke
2. Challenger (Gualandi) Slug
3. Winchester 3” Rack Master
4. Federal TruBall
5. Sellier & Bellot Sport Slug (Low Recoil)
6. Federal Power Shok Sabot Slug (did not shoot that one)
7. My Buck & Ball load (690 Round Ball, 21 pellets of #4 buck, 29 grains of Blue Dot)
8. Aguila Mini Slug


Here the results:

206903

(link to larger image (http://kalypso.net/temp/SPT_slug_test_pine_boards_front.JPG))


1. All the slugs penetrated 4 boards with the exception of the Aguila Mini Slug and the Sellier & Bellot Sport Slug.
2. The Aguila Mini Slug penetrated only 2 boards.
3. The 690 round ball of my Buck & Ball load penetrated all 4 boards.
4. Some of the #4 buckshot pellets penetrated one board (1.5 inches) by themselves
5. But what surprised me was that nearly half of the #4 buckshot pellets ended up inside of board number 4. It seems they traveled with the round ball (or behind the ball) through 3 layers of pine boards and then spread out an buried themselves into the 4th board.

Voila …. those are the results from today …

I wish I had bought one or two more boards and done the testing with 6 or 8 layers of pine boards … but I really did not think those slugs could go through so much wood .... Oh well … I guess that is what I have to test next time ….

Thoughts anybody?

Faustus

[dsh1106]

Good info for those wondering how any of these would do for home protection.

[longbow]

Are your round balls wheelweight? If so they will penetrate quite deep with little deformation in my experience. Pine is not very dense either so it takes quite a bit to stop a slug.

It would be interesting to see recovered slugs though wood penetration testing isn't very indicative of what happens when slugs meet tissue. Still interesting to see them though.

I've tried a couple of different mediums to test penetration and expansion but it is hard to duplicate ballistic gelatin results and kind of expensive to use ballistic gelatin.

I recall a test one the members here tried using wet rice. Didn't go so well but made for a humorous story as did my trial of wet "dough" which was a misguided attempt. I got pretty good results but the journey there and clean up after were... well... not worth it.

I have put together a frame to hold a series of water bags all lined up then a container full of rags to catch the expanded boolits or slugs. I did a test run using water jugs and a large bucket full of rags which worked pretty well for my .44 mag HP boolits. It would take a lot of water bags to stop a Brenneke, any hard cast slug or round ball though and not likely much if any expansion with hard cast slugs but soft Fosters and Thug Slugs might show expansion in water bags.

It is always fun doing tests like this and generally educational. I like to recover slugs or boolits though to see how they compare.

It is interesting that it appears the shot followed the ball then spread out. I wouldn't have expected that but then range for your test is pretty short.

Personally I think any of these is over powered for home protection. Birdshot or at least something smaller than buckshot should be plenty good at house or yard range without worrying about penetrating walls to other rooms or houses. I'd be willing to bet a Brenneke would penetrate several walls and possibly even into another house unless it met a stud or two dead on. In fact I'd bet a Brenneke would go through a bad guy then still make it through a wall or two.

They'd be good for bear protection and there the hard cast slugs or balls, or multi ball load like the Dixie Tri-Ball load would be best. Three 0.600" balls would be quite the stopper. No such thing as too much penetration on a bear.

Its always good to see test results... more fun to do the testing but good to read about other's testing too as there is always something learned. Good write up too.

Thanks for sharing.

Longbow

[faustus]

Longbow, thanks for the input and for sharing your thoughts.

My round balls are cast from melted hardened shot. So, they are not pure lead. And my suspicion now is that they are quite hard ...

I did this penetration test to see how the buck and ball would compare to commercial slug loads. The fact that my 690 round balls would not deform when shot into a sand bank .... just threw me off ... and I didn't know what to make of it .... :-(

Especially when you compare the result to what the Foster slugs normally look like:

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That is a commercial Foster slug shot through paper and into a sand bank.

With respect to recovering projectiles ... I was only able to recover the S&B Sport slug that the 4th board stopped. Here a picture ....

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I was not able to find the Aguilla Mini. It was stopped by the 3rd board ... and then must have gone sideways. Anyhow, I could not find it ....

I would love to recover a Brenneke and one of my 690 round balls after shot through those pine boards ... and in order to see how they look after being shot ... maybe I will have more success next time.

With respect to the Tri-Ball load .... or the buck and ball load based on the Tri-Ball load ...I gave up on those. My shotguns are sighted in for 50 yards (meters) and with 1oz slugs. The 690 round balls hit more or less to point of aim at that distance. However the 600 balls hit 3 feet high at 50 yards .... and that is a bit too much for my tastes.

Voila, so much for now ....

Faustus

[faustus]

This was the setup ... just with 4 boards ....

207011

[longbow]

Yeah, factory Foster slugs are all soft lead... at least any I have experience with. Brenneke and Gualandi are hard lead.

Hard round balls do take a beating! I found some of my 0.735" RB's almost at the 300 yard mark at the range after shooting them at 50 and 100 yards and they were in good enough shape to shoot again... well, almost anyway. I've found some of my heat treated slugs and a Tusker or two (Dixie Slugs hard cast) and again almost no damage.

It is hard to recover slugs unless you can slow them down first. I live in a heavy snow area and many of the slugs I've recovered were found in the spring after the snow melted. I've found lots of other people's boolits and slugs as well. Shooting downrange and 50 to 100 yards when there is 4' of snow provides many recovered slugs when that snow melts. Since I make most of my own slug moulds I recognize my slugs.

I learned a lot from them too. I had one that was generally giving pretty good accuracy but gave unexpected fliers too. It was a thick skirt HB slug but it turned out the skirt was tending to bell out when cast from ACWW. After oven heat treating they flew very consistently and so far have been one of my best performers. I have a slightly modified version waiting to be tested.

Lots of water then a bucket of rags is the best I've found for stopping boolits/slugs if deep snow isn't available. Hah! you do have to use a lot of water or that bucket either gets a hole in it or gets carried downrange a bit. Ask me how I know! I might be a slow learner sometimes but I have fun.

Glen Fryxel recommends a 2 liter pop bottle wrapped in masking tape then shot end on as a reasonable facsimile of tissue for deer size critters. A large mass of water is very hard on boolits. My plan is to use hanging water bags... again, the frame is all made up and waiting to be tested. I need more time or less life getting in the way!

I wonder why that Tri-Ball load shoots so high? I haven't tried those so I wonder if that is a common issue. I don't recall anyone else mentioning it though. Did you try downloading at all? I guess it would take a lot of downloading to lose 3' though.

I have a load recipe for two 0.690" RB's but have not tried it. That would pack a punch even at low velocity... at both ends and it may be a bit much for me these days. Getting old and fragile.

Longbow

[faustus]

...
I wonder why that Tri-Ball load shoots so high? I haven't tried those so I wonder if that is a common issue. I don't recall anyone else mentioning it though. Did you try downloading at all? I guess it would take a lot of downloading to lose 3' though.
...
Longbow

Longbow, it is my understanding that lighter projectiles will impact higher than heavier ones ... and the 600 balls are quite a bit lighter than the 690 ones ... Now, I am not an expert on ballistics ... far from that ... If somebody has a better explanation, please feel free to share ...

My Tri-Ball load impacts so much higher that I would need to dedicate one shotgun just to that load and adjust the sights just for that load .... and that is right now is not convenient for me.

[faustus]

Ok, penetration test the second …..
This time I had 8 layers of 1.5 inch pine boards. And this time I stacked them a bit closer and I believe that had an impact on penetration.

Here again the slugs:

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Here the set up:

207225

And here the results:

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(Link to larger image (http://kalypso.net/temp/Slug_Penetratipn_Test_8_Boards.jpg))

1.) Rio Brenneke penetrated 5 boards (I shot two rounds just to be sure … I had expected more from the Brenneke.)
2.) Challenger slug penetrated 7 boards (actually it was stuck in the 7th board and one could see the nose from the back)
3.) Federal TruBall slug penetrated 6 boards … now I was surprised by that one.
4.) For my Buck & Ball load … the 690 round ball penetrated 3 boards this time … got stuck in board 3 in the back.

And here a picture of the recovered projectiles:

207227

From left to right:

1.) Brenneke Slug
2.) Brenneke Slug
3.) Challenger (Gualandi) Slug
4.) Federal TruBall
5.) Sellier & Bellot Sport Slug
6.) 690 Round Ball

The Challenger slug is the clear winner when it comes to penetration. It is a pity that it is not more accurate … I only got a 10 inch group at 50 yards/meters with the Challenger slugs. However, I get 2 inch groups with the Federal TruBall at 50 meters/yards …. :)

Thoughts anybody?

[longbow]

Well, I hate to say it but I tested out Federal slugs prior to Tru-Ball and they were some of the most accurate factory slugs I have shot providing roughly 6" groups at 100 yards. Now if I could get dependable 6" 100 yard groups from my home cast and loaded slugs I'd be pretty happy!

I hate to say it because Normally a guy can do better than the factories but so far I've failed with slug loads.

I understand the Tru-Ball slugs are even better and your accuracy results with them were very good.

I am a little surprised the Brenneke didn't do better as well.

Not too surprised the Gualandi did so well in penetration due to design. I found that recovered Gualandi's had distorted skirts though and accuracy was a bit iffy which surprised me. They shot okay but I had a couple keyhole and generally accuracy was not great. You also found accuracy not so good which makes me think they are not a good choice.

Interesting test results for sure. What loads were used for each slug? Were they loaded to similar velocities? I'd expect the 0.690" RB's to penetrate better than most slugs if loaded to max pressure/velocity.

As for your Tri-Ball loads shooting high, yes the individual balls are lighter than the larger ball but there are three of them making for a heavy payload. Could it be recoil that is raising the muzzle making the Tri-ball load impact high? Heavy recoil and longer barrel time can have a significant effect on impact elevation.

Good report and pictures!

Longbow

[faustus]

Longbow,
me as well I had expected more penetration from the 690 ball of my Buck & Ball load. But I think I now have enough information to try to increasing the powder load. My Buck & Ball load has a 2.1 oz payload and when I shoot that load it does not feel like it. It feels more like one of the 1oz slugs. So, I believe I still have some room there to increase the powder load. This will be my project for this winter together with testing some Hammerhead slugs from Slugs 'R Us .... more fun to come … :)


And here the data for the slugs that I shot:

1. Rio Brenneke: 1 1/8oz; 1410 FPS
2. Challenger (Gualandi) Slug: 1 1/8oz; 1610 FPS
3. Winchester 3” Rack Master: 1 1/8oz; 1700 FPS
4. Federal TruBall: 1oz; 1600 FPS
5. Sellier & Bellot Sport Slug: 1oz; 1345 FPS
6. Federal Power Shok Sabot Slug: 1oz; 1500 FPS
7. My Buck & Ball load: Weight 2.1oz; Velocity unknown
8. Aguila Mini Slug: 7/8oz; 1250 FPS

I am just realizing … there is a pretty direct correlation between speed and penetration …. Now I wish I had tried the Rack Master which has the highest velocity …

[longbow]

Are those factory loads with listed factory velocities?

I'm betting that if the Brenneke was moving as fast as the Gualandi penetration would be much improved, equaling or bettering the Gualandi slug.

And I am sure that if the 0.690" RB was hard cast and launched at 1500 FPS it would be a top contender for max. penetration. Of course that would be just the 0.690" RB at max. pressure/velocity not buck and ball.

Also, penetration in wood is not comparable to penetration in tissue or ballistic gelatin. I found that slugs/boolits don't expand well in wood... especially cross grain dry wood. Wet green end grain wood worked better for me in that regard. Still it is interesting and provides comparative info... and is fun!

My Cartridges of the World has some old info (military?) on testing penetration using pine boards similar to what you are doing. I think dimensions and spacing are given if you want to follow a "standard". No slug info though.

Longbow

[faustus]

Are those factory loads with listed factory velocities?
...


Longbow, yes ... factory loads with listed factory velocities!!

[RMc]

As for your Tri-Ball loads shooting high, yes the individual balls are lighter than the larger ball but there are three of them making for a heavy payload. Could it be recoil that is raising the muzzle making the Tri-ball load impact high? Heavy recoil and longer barrel time can have a significant effect on impact elevation.
Longbow

Indeed so! Particularly when bench techniques that work well for firearms with fast barrel times are used. This is part of the reason why late 19th century British gunmakers used standing benchrests for testing their ultra big bore black powder dangerous game rifles.

[longbow]

Hmmmmm... I'm pretty sure Brennekes can be pushed significantly faster safely. I'll check my books. Of course you need Brenneke slugs for reloading to accomplish that.

I have a soft spot for Brennekes. I think old Wilhelm Brenneke had a great idea and design (old style Brenneke). My home made attached wad slugs are not quite up to Brenneke standards.

Longbow

[faustus]

Longbow,

ok, I checked my reference load data for the velocities. My Buck & Ball load would have the lowest velocity of all the slugs tested. And that would explain the lack of penetration ....

Reference Load 1:

Hull - Cheditte
Powder - Blue Dot
Primer - Ched209
Wad - Turkey Ranger
Shot Load - 2 oz
Charge - 28.2 gr
Pressure - 9500 psi
Velocity - 920 FPS
Source - Advantages Manual



Reference Load 2:

Hull - Fiocchi
Powder - Blue Dot
Primer - Fio616
Wad - X12X
Shot Load - 2 oz
Charge - 34 gr
Pressure - 10900 psi
Velocity - 1125 FPS
Source - Advantages Manual



Reference Load 3:

Hull - Fiocchi
Powder - Blue Dot
Primer - Fio616
Wad - X12X
Shot Load - 2 1/8 oz
Charge - 30 gr
Pressure - 10400 psi
Velocity - 1025 FPS
Source - Advantages Manual



And I loaded 29 gr of Blue Dot!!
I would assume the load is somewhere around 1000 FPS ... and that is pretty low compared to the other slugs.

Hey, I am learning and starting to connect the dots .... this is great. I love this ....

[smilie=w:[smilie=w:[smilie=w:

Thank you Longbow ....

[faustus]

Hmmmmm... I'm pretty sure Brennekes can be pushed significantly faster safely. I'll check my books. Of course you need Brenneke slugs for reloading to accomplish that.

I have a soft spot for Brennekes. I think old Wilhelm Brenneke had a great idea and design (old style Brenneke). My home made attached wad slugs are not quite up to Brenneke standards.

Longbow

With respect to the Brennekes ... I have a theory. The Brenneke was the only projectile where the wad stayed with the slug. The Challenger lost the wad I think in board 3. And that felt wad that stayed attached to the Brenneke might have slowed it down significantly while passing through the wood. I mean compressed felt and rough would equals lots of friction .... no?

This is just a theory .... I guess somebody would have to compare the Challenger slug and the Rio Brenneke ... and shoot them into into ballistic gel. Unfortunately, I don't want to go the ballistic gel route ... Too complicated and expensive for me.

But maybe somebody equipped wants to volunteer?

???

[longbow]

Hahahaha! That reminds me of my home made "reusable" ballistic media... not! and messy!

I have a Bullet Test tube which is actually a wax media for comparative expansion and penetration testing. It seems to work well enough for my .44 mag. Marlin and .22's but you need 2 or 3 for high power rifle... and they are a fairly small target so you better check accuracy first... and you only get one shot then cut apart then melt and recast so tedious.

I had a better idea or so I thought ~ "bread dough". Cheap and easy, shoot it, cut it, get your bullet then knead it back together to shoot again... in theory!

It turned out to be extraordinarily messy and not reusable. It is cheap and easy though!

You should look up BruceB's mushy rice report. It was even better than mine with bread dough! A search of BruceB and expansion or rice should dig it up. Pretty funny.

Wood and water are easy and cheap and pretty good for comparative testing at least. You're doing just fine.

On the Brenneke, I'm going to do some digging because I am certain I have seen reports of the classic Brenneke being one of the best full bore slugs for penetration. Not that 1410 FPS is slow but I'd expect to see better penetration with that one and I am pretty sure they can be pushed faster safely... but you'd think the factory would do that.

I'll post if I find anything useful or interesting.

Longbow

[longbow]

I was just searching for Brenneke in Canada and found some. Bell outdoors imports Brenneke and it turns out we have a local dealer so I'll check to see if he can bring any in. I'll probably be the first.

Also, I found on the Rotweil site that they have Brenneke classic and classic magnum at higher velocity. Were the ones you used the classic standard?

[faustus]

Longbow, ..... wow, that would be cool. Let us know how it goes .... and what kind of Brenneke these are.

I have only bought and shot the Rio Brenneke.

It seems these are older style Brennekes with the felt wad that is attached with a screw. It is written on top and the bottom "Original Brenneke".

The actual slug seems to be older stock Brenneke that Rio used to make those shells. They are not nice and shiny as if they just came out of the factory .... but show "patina"... or signs of age. My guess is that they got hold of a larger lot of older Brennekes (maybe even decades old) and used them to make those shells.

Weight is 488gr with the felt wad.

207569

It is the same ammo that Brobee tested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtyPqHyhgJo

I will see if I can post some pictures of the actual slug ... or as they say "Flintenlaufgeschoss" ...

[faustus]

207570

207571

[longbow]

That's the Brenneke classic which is what I like and want to test. It is available as standard and higher velocity magnum but they didn't state velocity. Brenneke USA might have the specs. I haven't looked yet.

Does the Rio box give velocity or did you chrono?

I'd like to get some felt that dense and use it on some of my slugs to test. I'll have to check and see what I can find. I still like smoothbore and I really like Brenneke classic slugs.

Thanks for that.

Do you have a micrometer or vernier? If so would you mind measuring the Brenneke and posting the diameter?

Longbow

Okay, factory velocity... should have looked back first.

[Spudgunr]

My conundrum for deer season: Stick with my 8 pellet 00 load and have pretty decent performance from 0-40 yards, or try for a buck and ball to give great penetration (blood trail for close up, penetration at distance) and more pellets for improved odds assuming it patterns well.

What I have debated loading up: a .575 roundball fits in the bottom of an RP12 wad perfectly. Then you can fit a good 9 pellets of .305-.310 buck on top and then have weight for another 8 pellets of #4 buck (or just make it a total of 12 pellets of the #0.5 buck) for a total of 1-7/8 ounces of home-cast buckshot in a 3" shell. 18 projectiles, all of which are good enough up close, half of which are good enough at 30-35 yards, and one of which if it aims well can take a deer out to 50-75 yards (probably on the short side of that due to accuracy of a round ball).

[faustus]

No micrometer here ... sorry ... :-(

The Rio Brenneke is supposed to have a velocity of 1410 FPS (manufacturer velocity).

Brenneke makes the Classic Magnum 12 GA 2¾' with 492 grs.
And the velocity is 1510 FPS.

http://www.brennekeusa.com/hunting-ammunition/classic-magnumtm/

[longbow]

Yeah, there you go... same slug but faster. That'll make a difference in penetration for sure.

Spugunr:

Round ball that fits well can be quite accurate to at least 50 yards and possibly 60 to maybe 70 yards. My good round ball loads with any of 0.662". 0.678" and 0.735" RB's will stay under 4" at 50 yards. However, with buck and ball you do not have a close fit of ball to bore so I sure would be shooting at a deer size animal at any distance past maybe 25 or 30 yards. If that 0.575" ball isn't launched accurately you don't know where it will be by 50 yards and those smaller pellets are likely to wound the deer. Close up it should do okay but I wouldn't try for long shots unless you have tested and can count on that ball going where you want within decent hunting accuracy ~ kill zone every time at whatever distance that is which I'm betting is closer than 50 yards.

For self defense the situation changes especially for two legged critters. If all he gets is a pellet or two then better than nothing but I have more sympathy for a deer than a bad guy. What's worse is they won't let you track him to ER then finish him.

Tri-Ball loads tend to group the 3 balls pretty close but even then you have to pattern to make sure at least one( and hopefully more) is going into the kill zone every time. I have not tried those but there are a number of posts by those who have and some who have failed. Even with just 3 balls accuracy is not a given especially at longer ranges.

Longbow

[longbow]

Tri-Ball... here we go:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?347564-Tri-Ball-Buckshot-Scores!

Tri-Ball patterning at 6" to 8" at 50 yards sounds like that is max. range to me... and maybe a bit beyond.

[RMc]

Just a note of caution: In looking through my notes, I found discussions of early attempts at shortening the crimp index of 3" Tri-Ball rounds using Longshot powder. The resulting tests showed the wads held together, patterns were tight yet pressures were well above SAMMI MAP standards.
So if your payloads are in the same weight range and you intend to use Longshot - have the loads pressure tested!

[AllanD]

What about putting slug on bottom? Very "even base". Once it exits barrel, it will slow down faster than buck shot anyway. It would also look just as cool imo.

Actually theory says that the big ball with more mass relative to it's shape will lose speed due to aerodynamic drag more slowly

[AllanD]

jdfoxinc I have a question sir. Assuming buck was loaded on top of the ball. As the load goes downrange, is not the buckshot going to slow faster than the ball? Is not then the ball going to be moving up through the buckshot? Possibly disrupting pattern?

Would it be different for a muzzle loader than for a modern loaded cartridge?
IE does the ball on the bottom seal the bore better resulting in better pattern?

Not disputing, asking. Nicely :)

That is my understanding that round balls are more Aerodynamically efficient the larger/heavier they are in any given material, and since all shot are spherical and of homogeneous material (lead) larger ones retain velocity further downrange.

[longbow]

faustus... you still around? it has been a while since I looked at this thread.

I got side tracked again and while I got some shooting in last spring, we had a bad fire season this year so I stayed out of the bush and our local range was closed so no shooting. So I got some good fishing in and kinda forgot about slugs for a bit.

Back to it now.

I never did get hold of any Brenneke Classics.

Have you checked them for accuracy from your smoothbore? Just curious. I am considering a rifled gun but really prefer the versatility of a smoothbore so not wanting to pry the money out of my wallet if a good slug will get acceptable accuracy out to 100 yards from smoothbore.

It was recently pointed out to me that BPI is stocking AQ slugs again too. I bought some AQ's many years ago and had some pretty dazzling accuracy from them. Two big disadvantages... they are pricey for general shooting; they are soft lead "balls" more or less on a plastic wad. Very accurate and easy to load but I'd prefer hard alloy for bear defense... or armoured vehicle defense.

Anyway, curious about the Brennekes.

I'm heading to Edmonton for Thanksgiving so will try to get to Cabelas and the Outdoor Sportsman (IIRC) to check on factory Brenneke availability.

Longbow

[Petander]

This is what I am getting with Rottweil "Brenneke style" slugs. It is a combination gun 7x65R & 20-76, scope is zeroed to the rifle barrel @ 100 m. Slug target was 35 and 55 meters trajectory check, reasonably good for deer at close range. Pretty much like a 45-70 in terms of power. Sort of turns a combination gun into a double rifle,which I like to have as an option.

I used to cast 12 gauge slugs (Lee mold) but only to swap shot from trap shells for cheap IPSC practise slugs. Never got accuracy really.

229140

[longbow]

Were those the Brenneke Classics? That's not bad but I'd expect better from Brenneke. The holes look a little oval so maybe the slugs are not quite stabilized. Is that barrel choked? Still as you say, plenty good for deer at those ranges.

Got to Edmonton for Thanksgiving and had a great time with the kids but Outdoor Sportsman went out of business and Cabelas didn't have Brennekes!

One day!

Longbow

[Petander]

This is Rottweil Exact Magnum.
15/16 oz.
I'd love to try a mould of this kind of a design. And yes,there is 3/4 choke,or 1/2 at least,fixed.

Sorry for going OT,this is an interesting discussion.

229149

[longbow]

Unfortunately there are only two moulds I know of in existence, but both in 12 ga. Cap'n Morgan has one he made in Denmark and it is a very good clone of the Brenneke (in fact he made several different versions for testing) and I have one I made that produces a straight ribbed version that isn't quite as classy. I am sure others have done similar.

I doubt there are or will be commercially available moulds since the ribbing makes it impossible for a standard two piece mould to release the ribbed slug. Cap'n Morgan's mould is a work of art and I have to suspect that it is based on die casting design. Mine is much more basic and is a simple straight ribbed push out design.

I have always thought the Brenneke Classic was the pinnacle of smoothbore slug technology and that Wilhelm Brenneke was a very brilliant man.

I have tried to clone the Brenneke design and the AQ design for some time now but with the limited tooling I have, and most home craftsman have, it is a challenge to say the least.

And yes, I guess we are not talking buck and ball anymore though it is entirely possible to load buck and slug as well. But I am afraid I am not a fan when it comes to hunting or self defense. War is a different matter and I am sure the buck and ball came form a hatred of the enemy and a knowledge that with smoothbores and round ball loadings with excess windage that accuracy was poor at best so the soldiers added some buckshot to increase odds of inflicting injury. Personally I think it is a fine idea for the time and purpose but here we are talking about self defense against large animals and possibly people.

When it comes to large animals that can do a person serious harm then the goal is not to inflict some minor injury if the main projectile misses as that may well be like tossing gas on a fire! Better to miss I think and hope the noise deters the animal or that you get a second shot.

Best is to place a damaging or killing shot and stop the animal in its tracks than to wound it and create an adrenaline rush. I'd be more comfortable using a double or Tri-Ball load if "buckshot" was the chosen payload. An exception there might be if a 10 ga. or larger shotgun was used where something like 12 pellets of 000 buck or larger (0.36" RB's or larger) were the payload. That may leave a pretty large and crippling ouwie!

When it comes to defense against people again, I wouldn't choose buck and ball because in most situations this defense is considered as a house gun and that means close range so hit or miss the main projectile is fully capable of penetrating the perp then at least one wall and more likely more so possibly endangering others in the house (or apartment) or even the neighbour's house. Smaller shot is the better choice there in my opinion.

So there I am getting back on topic but pretty preachy I guess. Just one man's opinion.

FWIW

Longbow

PS: I do like Brenneke Classic slugs!

[Petander]

It seems that Brenneke design still wins the smoothbore slug accuracy contest.

I don't have a need for "buck and ball" either but it's interesting to see what can be done with modern components. I patterned Federal Prairie Storm with a 12 gauge short barrel cylinder bore "slug gun" and it gives a perfectly good 1/2 choke pattern @ 35 meters. Wads and fillers doing their job I guess,a choke effect built in the ammo.

[faustus]

faustus... you still around? it has been a while since I looked at this thread.

I got side tracked again and while I got some shooting in last spring, we had a bad fire season this year so I stayed out of the bush and our local range was closed so no shooting. So I got some good fishing in and kinda forgot about slugs for a bit.

Back to it now.

I never did get hold of any Brenneke Classics.

Have you checked them for accuracy from your smoothbore? Just curious. I am considering a rifled gun but really prefer the versatility of a smoothbore so not wanting to pry the money out of my wallet if a good slug will get acceptable accuracy out to 100 yards from smoothbore.

It was recently pointed out to me that BPI is stocking AQ slugs again too. I bought some AQ's many years ago and had some pretty dazzling accuracy from them. Two big disadvantages... they are pricey for general shooting; they are soft lead "balls" more or less on a plastic wad. Very accurate and easy to load but I'd prefer hard alloy for bear defense... or armoured vehicle defense.

Anyway, curious about the Brennekes.

I'm heading to Edmonton for Thanksgiving so will try to get to Cabelas and the Outdoor Sportsman (IIRC) to check on factory Brenneke availability.

Longbow

Longbow, I am still around ... from time to time .... :)

Well, this thread really went off topic .... partly my fault .... Ok, I will create another thread ... and I will answer your questions there .... lets try to keep this one on topic .... Buck & Ball!!!

[longbow]

Good idea! I'll stay out of this thread in future,

Sorry I took it off topic.

Longbow

[Ganderite]

I am a real novice at loading shotshells, although 50 years ago I was very involved with CIL ammo division R&D, and most of my work was on shotshells. At that time we were developing plastic wad columns.

Recently I have been buying cheap target loads and using a 16mm ceramic tile drill bit (about $5.00) to drill out the crimp. It cuts just inside the edge of the crimp, so that the folded lip is still there to hold the wad in place, under a bit of compression.

I then drop in the Lyman pellet-shaped slug and tap it below the lip of the case with a ball-peen hammer. The slug is nice and tight and these make for good plinking slugs for IPSC practice.

The other thing I do is heat up sealing wax with the shot I dumped from the cases and pour this mix back into the case with a teaspoon. This hardens into a cylinder-shaped slug that shoots very well to about 35 yards. Again, good for practice.

The advantage of these wax slugs is that there is no casting required.

I live on a farm and sometime shoot the raccoons that come by to rip open our garbage or to peel the siding off the house. A was slug would be good for them. When the slug hits something, it releases all the pellets. So there is zero spread of the shot until it hits. The ultimate in a tight pattern.

This thread about buck and ball got me thinking. Suppose the buck and ball also had hot wax added to keep the package together in flight.

I have a 1 oz Lee mold and have a Lee 690 and #4Buck mold on order. I will try these with and without the wax - and will report back.

[pashiner]

Ganderite, I've been doing the same thing with the wax, sans tile drill... I just cut the crimp off to make a clean straight end on the shell. If you want a touch more accuracy without spending much more money, make yourself a wooden dowel that just fits the inside of the shotcup. First I pull out the wad, aND use the dowel like a mandrel and put a layer of thin plastic tape around the wad to keep the petals from spreading, then I run a small pan-head sheet metal screw into the wad to retain the wax/birdshot "slug". This way, it flies like a brenneke attached wad slug, and I can stretch my range a bit more before it begins to tumble off course. I"m going to have to try the tile drill thing...I like the idea of some partial-crimp retention for the Lyman 525. Wonder what a little kiss from a roll crimper would do for consistency?

[Ganderite]

Here are some pictures. You can see the remains of the folded over lip that retains the wad.

https://i.imgur.com/nSrJWrd.png

https://i.imgur.com/9zYGvCE.png

https://i.imgur.com/6RQM8Zr.png

Here are my Lyman slugs sitting target load cases:
https://i.imgur.com/ls42iJz.jpg

[Markopolo]

Why not try working up a buck n ball load taking advantage of the larger powder/shot capacity of all brass 12g shells? I use 10g wads in them and they fit nice. And the wads are bigger and I bet everything would fit real nice. A slight roll crimp with a dab of Elmer’s on top of the overshot card would work to hold everything secure. The Remington SP10’s are a 2oz shotcup and they might work in cylinder bore guns. The wad squeezes down pretty well. I will grab a wad and take a pic of it next time I shoot one.

[faustus]

It seems this thread has a tendency to wander off topic ..... oh well .... lets try to bring it back ...

So far my Buck & Ball loads did not give me stellar accuracy ... :-(
This is what I got at 50 yards/meters ....

230903

But I am trying to develop a load where the main projectile is pretty accurate and the buckshot pattern is ... lets say decent.

So, in the spirit of experimentation ... I have loaded three new buck & ball loads. Actually they are not "buck & ball" loads but they are "Slug & Buck" loads. I cut apart some commercial shells and in order to recover the slugs and components ... and to reuse them in my slug & buck loads ... and just as an experiment. I am basing this experiment on slugs that gave me good or decent accuracy out of my 870 Police ....

230904

From left to right:

1.) Remington 12ga 7/8oz slug with 21 pellets of #4 buck
2.) Federal TruBall 1oz slug (with most of the wad base cut off) and with 8 pellets of #1 buck
3.) Sellier & Bellot 1oz slug with 8 pellets of #1 buck

Now, I will probably not be able to shoot those till the spring ... but once I shoot them I will report back here with how they performed ... :)

I have a feeling this will be a loooooong winter ..... ohhh well ....

:-(

[longbow]

Any idea of velocity? Just curious. That payload must be running about 2 ozs.?

What are you using for load data?

Does that S&B slug have an attached wad or is that just a cushion leg under it? Just curious. I haven't tried S&B slugs.

What's wrong with shooting in winter? Actually I like to slug shoot when there is 3' to 4' of snow because when it melts I get to look for slugs! Our range is very sandy so after the snow slows the slugs (low angle so lots of travel through the snow) they are virtually undamaged. It would be nicer to pick them up after shooting and make notes but I'll take what I can get!

Look I didn't stray off topic! I'm trying to be a good boy this time.

Longbow

[faustus]

Longbow, all three have a payload of 1 7/8 oz, and I used Longshot as a powder.

I realized that Longshot takes up less hull space than BlueDot, ... and for these buck & ball loads you need hull space. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any Longshot load data for loads heavier than 1 7/8 oz ... :-(

I looked up a couple of birdshot reference loads for Fiocchi, Cheddite and Federal hulls, and for a 1 7/8oz payload they all use 26 to 27 grains of Longshot.

And I loaded 23 grains of Longshot to be on the save side.

The velocity of those reference loads is just above 1100 FPS.

So, I would assume that my loads are a bit less .... maybe 1000 FPS?

--------------

With respect to the "Sellier & Bellot Sport Slug" it is a low recoil foster type slug with an attached wad/gas seal and which stays with the slug during flight .... I like it as a practice round ... accuracy is decent ... and my shoulder thanks me. And it is relatively inexpensive.

https://www.rem870.com/2013/09/19/sellier-bellot-shotgun-practical-sport-slug/

p.s.: My personal range is snowed in ... I would have to go shooting on snow shoes ... ;)

[longbow]

That S&B slug looks very nice. Soft lead though I am guessing.

I like the attached wad. Looks to me to be the "right" length so it doesn't get cocked when it crushes. I think Gualandi wads are too long... but they have used them for a long time seemingly with success so I guess its just me.

It'll be interesting to see how accurate that slug is with the shot pushing it.

And of course that is your goal ~ to get decent slug accuracy and good shot pattern.

I guess I'm lucky, I can drive to the range, almost to the covered shooting area, even in heavy snow as the range road is ploughed.

Longbow

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings Faustus, I like the way you are loading them, looks very nice plus they are suppose to be very deadly up close. Keep it up.

Best regards,
Ajay Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[faustus]

Greetings Faustus, I like the way you are loading them, looks very nice plus they are suppose to be very deadly up close. Keep it up.
...


Thank you Ajay for the encouragement ... much appreciated!

But I wouldn't be here ... and where I am ... without you! I am merely following your foot tracks ...

Thanks for blazing the trail, Ajay!!!!

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings, You are very welcome my friend Faustus, feel free to write to me, I'll be there for you.
You made me feel good, thank you.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
Best regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[Ganderite]

I tried my wax slugs that had a 200gr lead bullet in with the wax and shot.

Did not work as a slug. The bullet collapsed the wax slug and all I got from the muzzle as a cloud of shot and a 200 gr bullet at 1050 fps.

I might try again, placing the bullet at the bottom of the cup.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings Ganderite, can you please post some pictures of your set up so we too can visualize it.
The pictures indeed play a very important role in our quest for perfection.
Thank you.

Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[Ganderite]

Pictures of ordinary wax slugs and wax slugs with a 45cal 200gr bullet added. I suspect the bullet set back down in the wad column on firing, and broke up the wax binder, so it just became a shot load, instead of a wax slug.
https://i.imgur.com/vIRM3MF.jpg

They key to the process is cutting out the crimp, leaving the folded over lip, to hold the wad in place. I use a 16mm cermaic tile cutter. Costs about $2.00 on ebay.
https://i.imgur.com/MIjhdEm.jpg


Here is a video I made of how I make the wax slugs.

https://youtu.be/7x2WyC_yMqY

[faustus]

Update Spring 2019 - "Slug & Buck" loads

Well, I finally got around to shooting my "Slug & Buck" loads. I had a great day at my range … and I am pretty satisfied with the results. Basically those loads confirmed my suspicion that Foster type slugs with some sort of centering mechanism will be more accurate in a buck& ball load.

Distance was 50 yards. I am sharing the results here below.

Next steps:

1.) I got some very slight pressure signs on some of those Cheddite hulls. I think I will load a couple of those rounds up in Fiocchi hulls and adjust the powder charge till I get no more pressure signs. According to Ajay’s observations, Fiocchi hulls will show pressure signs earlier than other hulls from other manufacturers. And I have to say, ... so far my observations are in line with Ajay’s.

2.) Those 50 yard groups do not give a good idea about how the buckshot will pattern at closer ranges. So, that is next on my list …. Patterning at closer ranges.

3.) And third, now I just have to find a full bore Foster slug mold and figure out how I can center the projectile in the bore without taking up too much hull space. Any ideas anybody?



http://kalypso.net/temp/buckandball/Buck_and_Slug_Rem_7_8_oz_lowres.jpg


http://kalypso.net/temp/buckandball/Buck_and_Slug_S_B_Slug_lowres.jpg


http://kalypso.net/temp/buckandball/Buck_and_Slug_TruBall_lowres.jpg


Also, I recovered some of the components that I used in those loads …. And what I was able to recover looks good … no damage … Theoretically those gas seals could be reused ….


http://kalypso.net/temp/buckandball/Buck_and_Slug_Recovered_Components_lowres.jpg

Voila ... so much for now ....

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Great to see you doing good, I would cut a 3/4 inch 8 inch long paper strip and roll it in the hull on top of OP wad right before putting the buck shots and continue with your darker nitro card etc. That is just to keep the buck shots from spreading out too fast. Try a few and see.

Best of luck.
Regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots
PS even if you like make a " U " shaped paper and then load your buck shots in stead of the under size slug as pictured. You will need 1 1/8 wide paper strip to close one end up to keep the buck contained. Who knows you just might have even a better idea ! !
https://i.imgur.com/yjZi7z9.jpg

[faustus]

Ahhhhhh .... Ajay ... now you are giving me ideas ... Ok, one more variation to test ... ;)

[longbow]

I could probably be talked into sending you a few slugs from my full bore mould ~ it casts at 0.729" and is a TC design. Being a push out mould it is adjustable for length/weight. If you want some let me know what weight you want. Not sure if I can get down to an ounce but I know it will cast down to around 525 grs. and on up to 585 grs. or so. It flies pretty well from my gun.

Something else you might try with the buckshot is the resin encapsulating idea. Apparently Winchester (?) or one of the big box outfits uses a resin "buffer" in some of their loads and the idea is that it fills in around the shot then solidifies but shatters into fine pieces at ignition. If you do a search you should find the threads on that. Just thinking it may hold your buckshot together better and given good "cushion" to avoid deformation giving better groups. There were guys trying things at home to reproduce the idea.

Longbow

[faustus]

Ok, here an update .... the latest version .....

I tested this load with Fiocchi hulls and primers .... and I did not get any pressure signs .... :)

I chose #4 buckshot because it stacks so nicely in 12ga hulls ... and it provides a stable base for the slug ... and it gave me the best accuracy for the slugs ....

Hull: Cheddite 3”, clear hull, 12ga
Primer: Cheddite 209
Powder: Longshot
Gas Seal: X12X
Powder charge: 23gr (Lee Powder Dipper 1.9)
Buckshot: 14 pellets of #4 buck
Slug: Sellier & Bellot 1oz Slug


Column:

1. Powder
2. X12X
3. .125 Nitro Card
4. 14 Buckshot Pellets (#4 Buck)
5. .125 Nitro Card
6. Sellier & Bellot Slug with attached wad
7. Roll crimp

Here what the loaded round looks like .....

http://kalypso.net/temp/buckandball/Slug_n_Buck_No6_lowres.jpg

Here the pattern/result at 20 meters/yards .... out of an 870 Police with IC choke ...

http://kalypso.net/temp/buckandball/Slug_and_Buck_No6_14Pellets_No4Buck_20Meters_lowre s.JPG

And here the pattern/result at 30 meters/yards .... again 870 Police with IC choke ...

http://kalypso.net/temp/buckandball/Slug_and_Buck_No6_14Pellets_No4Buck_30Meters_lowre s.JPG

Voila, now I just need to find a substitute for the Sellier & Bellot slug and which I can cast myself ....

... so far, I am happy ..... :)

[bikerbeans]

Fiocchi or cheddite hulls and primers?

BB

[faustus]

Fiocchi or cheddite hulls and primers?

BB

Both!!!

I tested that load with Fiocchi hulls and primers and to see if that combination would result in any pressure signs. According to Ajay, the Fiocchi hulls are one of the first to show pressure signs ....

Then I switched to Cheddite hulls and primers .... and still no pressure signs ..... :)
And I am intending to use Cheddite hulls and primers for this load ...

For those who are interested, here an interesting article related to primer substitution ....

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

Hope this helps ....
Faustus

[wildphilhickup]

I still got me a stash of 12 Gauge, 1 ounce, Hollow Point Shotgun Slugs, from "The Slugmasters", Leavittsburg, Ohio.

They state to load; PGS + 5/16" lubricated wad + 0.135" card.

Alcan AL120 - 35 grains

Winchester 450 LS - 30 grains

Hodgdon Topmark - 29 grains

Herco Unique - 28 grains

[SuperBlazingSabots]

What a great post on Buck & Ball, indeed you are perfecting the art of loading it with proper pictures by documenting it.
Can't wait to hear more from you.
**--** Can any one please set this post as a " Sticky " I said Please ! ! **--**

Best regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[longbow]

Faustus:

These guys have a variety of full bore slug moulds:

https://tatvcanada.com/?product_cat=moulds

and here is a "standard" Foster slug mould that may be a bit shorter to better suit your space limitations:

https://as-molds.com/the-bulletmold-foster/?fbclid=IwAR2BjyDbi_SMh-f0X6YLHi7eIpJlVDgd2cYn_OLxnlSxKCfSaKdAvMifmHY

Longbow

[faustus]

Ajay, thank you for your encouraging comments. I can only say ... that you blazed the trail ... and I got to where I am because I had your trail to follow. So, I am hoping that documenting my efforts here might help somebody else eventually ... and to pick up the trail again and extend it ...

Well, I am at the point where the load that I developed works pretty nicely.
I know that I can hit consistently a 4 -6" circle at 50 meters with that load (slug).
And the buckshot pattern at closer ranges is not too bad neither.

254788

I now need to find a slug that can replace the Sellier & Bellot one. The Sellier & Bellot slug shoots nice and does not take up much hull space .... but it is a relatively expensive solution ... :-(

And originally I thought it to be a temporary solution just for my testing/learning ...

http://kalypso.net/temp/other/SandB_slug.jpg


So, here is what I am looking for:

- an accurate full bore 12ga slug that I can cast myself
- a mechanism to center the slug in the bore (ball, attached wad, other?)
- the slug cannot take up much hull space, so long tail wads will not work
- needs to be an 1oz slug

If anyone has any suggestions, then please chime in ....

[faustus]

Faustus:

These guys have a variety of full bore slug moulds:

https://tatvcanada.com/?product_cat=moulds

and here is a "standard" Foster slug mould that may be a bit shorter to better suit your space limitations:

https://as-molds.com/the-bulletmold-foster/?fbclid=IwAR2BjyDbi_SMh-f0X6YLHi7eIpJlVDgd2cYn_OLxnlSxKCfSaKdAvMifmHY

Longbow

Longbow, .... ahhhhhhhh great! I will have a look at those ..... thank you!