Snubnose Bullet Options

[Djones]

I ordered a new S&W 642 in 38 special +P rated. 1.88" barrel and 14.4 ounces in weight.

I have several bullet molds in my 35 cal stash and am curious what everyone thinks would be the best option for self defense. I will mostly carry this gun when away from the house but may carry it while out hiking too.

Option 1: Lee 358-125 RNFP
http://leeprecision.com/6-cav-358-125-rf.html

Option 2: NOE 360-172 SWC
200325

Option 3: NOE 360-172 SWC Hollow Pointed (small, large or cup point pins)
200323

Option 4: NOE 360-180 WFNGC
200324

Option 5: Lee 359-200 RNFP (RCBS 35-200 copy)
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/573077/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-c358-200-rf-38-special-357-magnum-38-colt-new-police-38-s-and-w-358-diameter-200-grain-flat-nose-gas-check

Option 6: Purchase Factory Self Defense Ammo

Option 7: Get a different mold

Thanks for any input and who doesn't like the occasional poll?!?!?!?

[Pine Baron]

Lee 358-125 RNFP
I use this for 9mm, .38 and .357. I like it a lot.

[bobthenailer]

If for self defense for people I would use the Speer 135gr GD HP short barrel ammo or reloaded bullet for 38 or 357 mag J frame snub !
I currently have a S&W 360 PD in 357 mag @11.4oz that's enough recoil , factory rated velocity out of a @ two inch barrel is 860 for 38 special and 990 for the 357.
I just recently was able to buy the Speer 135gr GD short barrel bullet for reloading from Midway after trying to get them for almost 2 years.

For anything else I would use the 180 gr wfn and I have that mould, as the gun will probley shoot low as all three of the J frame snubs have and this will raise the bullet impact some .

[Ickisrulz]

The advice I received for my carry gun (s&w 642) was to use full wadcutters. I use a mold from Accurate Molds. I have no practical experience of using this in a self defense role. I have shot a few pocket gophers though.

http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/wadcutter-ammo-self-defense/

[Grmps]

I've done thousands of these
Lee
.358-158-RF
.358-158-SWC-TL
I think that Lee .358-148-WC would hit pretty hard
for personal defense, some have turned a HB wad cutter around for pretty devastating results.

[rintinglen]

I would go with 140-158 grain HP, cast soft, with a binary alloy 30-1 or even 40-1. I have a 4 Cavity mold from MP Molds that casts a 144 grain RF HP that has become the apple of my eye. IIRC, it is a 359-640L. NOE makes a number of boolit molds that offer similar utility. 200330

[Tom W.]

I'd like to get the mold you have for choice #1, but mostly for my 9mm,with maybe a few in my .357.

[Fenring]

I doubt you'll get meaningful expansion with any sort of HP at .38 snub speeds so I wouldn't bother casting them for this application.

My preference would be for a WFN around 158gr or similar with no shoulder - in my experience SWC designs with a sharp shoulder can hang up a tad if using speedloaders, if that's applicable to you.

[35remington]

Use standardish weight 148-158 grain bullets to have the best chance the gun will hit
to the sights.

[OptimusPanda]

I went with the 358-125RF. It seemed like a fair compromise between two and four legged targets. Assuming of course that you were unwilling to keep two kinds of ammo for two kinds of problems.

[Petrol & Powder]

Perhaps the question should be modified a bit to include the use.

I buy factory ammo for carry loads. Mostly because it's just easier to purchase a case of "FBI load" equivalent cartridges than to make a small supply myself. My 38 Special ammo gets shot in a lot of different guns but most of it ends up being SWC or WC rounds. Because those rounds get fired in a variety of guns (alloy framed, steel framed, 2" -6" barrels), I try to keep my logistics simple.
So the bullet in my snubnose load is likely to be the bullet used in other loads as well. The powder charge might vary but the bullets tend to be standard. My practice load for an alloy framed snubnose is likely to be a full wadcutter (but close to 155 grains) loaded to standard 38 Special pressures

IF, I was going to cast and load specifically for a snubnose self defense load, I'd probably either attempt to duplicate the FBI load with a soft LSWCHP or use a 170ish grain Type III wadcutter cast from a soft alloy and driven as fast I safely could.

[country gent]

I too like th Speer short barrel loads for snubbies a lot of performance there. I have the 360 37 mag version at 12ounces and recoil can be violent with some loads. The light weight is the main cause. For hiking and larger animals the heavier bullets might be better but a 170-200grn loads recoil may be brutal.

[sawinredneck]

For two legged protection I'd stick with factory loaded ammo, it's just cheap insurance if you do have to shoot and go to court. Now days seems everyone is out to make a name for themselves, any way they can. If that means hanging you out because you loaded up these special bullets that were designed just to kill, or whatever twist they want to create in court.
I'm not going say it can happen, but I'm not going to say it can't either! That's just my thoughts on it and it's worth every penny you paid!
But with so many great, easily found, factory loadings, why not eliminate that risk?

[Petrol & Powder]

I've never felt that the issue of factory ammo vs. handloaded ammo would be significant in a civil trial, once all the facts were on the table.

HOWEVER...and this is a BIG however. Why open the door and give the plaintiff that possible argument ?
The question is NEVER "will I be sued?" The answer to that is an absolute - YES, you will be sued. You're going to get sued, get over that fact.

The real question is always, "Will I be successfully sued?"

In the end, the type of ammunition will probably not be a factor but WHY expend the energy to fight that battle if you can just side step it from the get go?

As for snubnose factory loads, there are two with honest track records: The FBI load and the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Load.
I'm sure there are others that work just fine but when something is known to work well; why deviate ?

[sawinredneck]

I've never felt that the issue of factory ammo vs. handloaded ammo would be significant in a civil trial, once all the facts were on the table.

HOWEVER...and this is a BIG however. Why open the door and give the plaintiff that possible argument ?
The question is NEVER "will I be sued?" The answer to that is an absolute - YES, you will be sued. You're going to get sued, get over that fact.

The real question is always, "Will I be successfully sued?"

In the end, the type of ammunition will probably not be a factor but WHY expend the energy to fight that battle if you can just side step it from the get go?

As for snubnose factory loads, there are two with honest track records: The FBI load and the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Load.
I'm sure there are others that work just fine but when something is known to work well; why deviate ?
Sorry, wasn't trying to rehash that same old argument, just figured it was worth a mention.
As for deviating from known ammo, there's been a lot of advancements made in the last five years, some of the Buffal bore loadings certainly warrant looking into as well as Double tap and a few others.
I gave up my .38, I just didn't trust it, much like my 9mm in the '90's, same size, nearly same weight, I'm carrying a .357. Even been eying the new Kimber just for the extra round and what, 1/4" thicker? But that's me and my choices. I know the .38 and 9mm work, but I like the 10mm and .357 better.

[marlin39a]

Lee 358-125 is my choice. The round flat design, and loaded fast, is a perfect choice for self defense.

[rking22]

Pick up a 148gr WC mold and load them on 3.2 to 3.5 of bullseye. Everybody needs a wc mould anyway. Most likely not enough barrel for HP. No need to waste glass checks in a 38. Nothing says the 125 leewont work but I like the more weight and flat square nose best. Just an opinion.

[salvadore]

I like a full range wadcutter.

[Petrol & Powder]

sawinredneck, no worries. The topic on SD ammo comes up often.

As for new advancements, Yep, they're out there. No doubt there are some excellent choices.
I'm a bit old school and I like well established track records.
With any SD load the first criteria is penetration - the bullet must penetrate deep enough, reliably enough; to reach something important that will stop the fight. The next criteria is the damage the un-expanded bullet does. In this area, a flat nose bullet profile has proven to be superior to a round nose (although a RN will sometimes do the trick if it happens to be in just the right place). After that threshold is achieved, bullet expansion is the icing on the cake.

The old FBI load appears unsophisticated to the uninformed but that simple approach has a lot going for it when fired from a 2" barrel. The bullet is on the heavy side (158gr) which helps penetration. The alloy is soft which aids expansion even at lower velocities. The SWC profile preforms well even when it doesn't expand at all. The hollow point cavity is large for the caliber, which also helps the bullet to expand at lower speeds but the bullet has proven to be a good performer even when it doesn't expand. And finally, that simple hunk of soft lead is driven at +P velocity, which is about the best you can hope for out a 38 Special. It's not a complex formula but it works.

Then we have the Speer Gold Dot 135gr Short Barrel load which was specifically designed to work well from.......wait for it.....Short Barrels :). Speer put a lot of work into that design and it has been tested in the real world for many years. Back at the end of the revolver days in the NYPD it was the issued load for both 4" duty guns and 2" off-duty guns. It established a good track record in both short barrels and duty guns.

There are other choices out there but I like decisions based on years of actual results.

[sawinredneck]

And I respect the results myself! That's why I'm a huge fan of the .357 125grn SJHP! But Double tap, and most certainly Buffalo Bore, have managed to impress even me.

[18Bravo]

Of the choices offered, I prefer the Lee 358-125. As others have mentioned it is a versatile round that is capable in 9mm, 38 Special and 357 Magnums. For defensive loads I prefer jacketed hollow points. For "just the fun of it" I love the 148gr DEWC. Load um like popcorn and shot um the same way.

[Good Cheer]

Short range self defense needs:
Penetration (including winter clothing and jackets) and disabling damage.

Prevention of leading, accuracy and expansion aren't on the list. A nose profile that works well for quick reloading might make the list but to my mind not (I'm not going to plan my loads around having a snubbie fire fight).

I've experimented with .38 snubbie defense loads, including the Lyman 358395 hollow base loaded backwards.
200412

200413

Now I've come to the conclusion that it's a good weight and a good design but the conical plug for the hollow base needs to be changed to a wedge that extends completely across the width of the slug. That way it cuts through leather or insulated ware without being a semi-pointy nose like a SWC. And I'm thinking it will turn sideways as soon as it hits and one side of the V shears off. Maybe it needs a catchy name, something maybe like "dum-dum".

[Good Cheer]

Short range self defense needs:
Penetration (including winter clothing and jackets) and disabling damage.

Prevention of leading, accuracy and expansion aren't on the list. A nose profile that works well for quick reloading might make the list but to my mind not (I'm not going to plan my loads around having a snubbie fire fight).

I've experimented with .38 snubbie defense loads, including the Lyman 358395 hollow base loaded backwards.
200412

200413

Now I've come to the conclusion that it's a good weight and a good design but the conical plug for the hollow base needs to be changed to a wedge that extends completely across the width of the slug. That way it cuts through leather or insulated ware without being a semi-pointy nose like a SWC. And I'm thinking it will turn sideways as soon as one side of the V shears off. Maybe it needs a catchy name, something maybe like "dum-dum".

200423

[farmerjim]

I alternate lee 358-125-RF with half jacket concave.

[gwpercle]

After doing a lot of testing with different loads and every boolit design I could buy, beg , borrow or steal , the winner in both my J-frame and K-frame is the
NOE 360-160-WC-PB which is the discontinued Lyman 358432 160 grain wadcutter.
It's accurate , 160 grains in weight and has a wide meplate....works for me !
Also the 160 grain weight boolit shots to the fixed sights of both J and K framed guns, which is very helpful.
Gary

[Tenbender]

None of the options fit me . I use wadcutters . If I uses a snub for more than 10 feet I might try something else but the cutters do it for me.

[MT Gianni]

NOE 160 WFN is heavy enough to penetrate, has the profile I like and light enough to have some velocity.

[RogerDat]

I see what I think is some wisdom in using commercial ammo for SD, legal reasons if nothing else and removes any doubt about what performance will be like. Where my titegroup load is different than my unique load a box of commercial will have a consistent performance when wife uses it or I do.

Mold should make ammo you can practice with that is at least close to your commercial loads. E.g the Lee 125 grain for practice if you are going to carry the Speer Gold Dot in 135 grain. Mold should make bullets that you will enjoy shooting. This will encourage lots of practice time by being fun to shoot rather than pounding the shooters hand and eardrums.

I think the point made before about stopping the bad guy being the only function is a good one. At inside the house ranges or being accosted in a parking lot the ranges are not extreme and a firefight is not high probability. SWC, WC, RN, HP or RNFP all can probably get the job done. It does matter if the bullet can penetrate leather jacket or heavy clothing reliably but at 20 feet I'm guessing a WC would do that just fine. I think I read where the reversed HBWC is bad at penetration from a short barrel. It tends to expand on clothing or whatever instead of inflicting a penetration wound.

[imashooter2]

Speer 135 grain short barrel.

[jmort]

I think the 180 grain RNFP at around 800 fps is best choice
Will shoot through your target. The notion of over penetration is a joke.
If trained LEOs hit at sub 33% any miss is total over penetration
It boils down to lines of fire.
Nothing more
If you are more than likley to miss a shot or two, and we never like to admit or discuss this issue,
Then you are way beyond "over penetration"
Line of fire and big slow bullet, through and through
That is my opinion

[bedbugbilly]

Pick what YOU want and feel confident with. Whatever you pick, practice with it and practice often.

I often carry a Smith 36 snub - either loaded with factory rounds or my own loads of a 160 gr. WC, seated out over 3.5 grains of BE.

[Djones]

I know this subject has been thoroughly discussed for decades. I do appreciate everyone's input greatly. Your discussions and real world experience are priceless.

After reading through your posts, my plan is to buy a couple boxes of the Speer gold dot short barrel. I will shoot a handful of those and keep the rest for carry while with my family. For practice I will buy a NOE 360-160 WFN HP mold. According to the drawing the mold should come out pretty close to 135 grain in the hollow point configuration. And lastly for plinking I'll stick with the lee 125 grain over some trailboss.

While I am saving up for the new mold I will also try some of the 360-180 WFN.

Well at least I have a plan now.

Thanks again guys.

David

[CIC]

148 grain wadcutter hollow base or double ended get my vote. I do carry 158 grain SWC as reloads because I can get them in they cylinder easier. Both my 148 and 158 grain molds are Lee.

[RogerDat]

I know this subject has been thoroughly discussed for decades. I do appreciate everyone's input greatly. Your discussions and real world experience are priceless.

After reading through your posts, my plan is to buy a couple boxes of the Speer gold dot short barrel. I will shoot a handful of those and keep the rest for carry while with my family. For practice I will buy a NOE 360-160 WFN HP mold. According to the drawing the mold should come out pretty close to 135 grain in the hollow point configuration. And lastly for plinking I'll stick with the lee 125 grain over some

While I am saving up for the new mold I will also try some of the 360-180 WFN.

Well at least I have a plan now.

Thanks again guys.

David
Sounds like a good plan too.

[FergusonTO35]

I carry 3.1 grains Bullseye/Lyman 148 grain wadcutter/Federal primer in my S&W 637. It clocks a very consistent 712 fps, is very accurate and easy to shoot, and penetrates quite well. I think there is a point of diminishing returns with hot rod loads in small handguns, and I always say shot placement is king and penetration is queen.

For factory ammo, the Remington UMC .38 +P 125 grains SJHP is an excellent choice that costs only a few dollars more than standard lead rounds. It has alot of exposed lead and a scalloped, thin jacket for easy expansion. The Ruger SP-101 I used to have loved them, they penetrated and expanded in wet newspaper really well too.

[Biggin]

As a long time CCW holder and certified N R A pistol instructor my short answer is to carry factory ammo for legal reasons. However I would rather see an individual carrying something they can actually hit with
Rounds on target are what counts. My .02

[Johnny_Cyclone]

We could flip that cast and loading your own to mean:

We shot him with our home made hobby target ammo.

Then we seem like what we are recreationalists that had a bad situation befall us.
Rather than some wanna be Dirty Harry type who used ammo made by a factory that is professionally produced, and specifically designed to maim and kill.

6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

[KVO]

gwpercle, Your frequent praises of the 358432 (NOE 360-160 WC) mold have not fallen on deaf ears. I gave this one a try myself after realizing I needed a .38/.357 wadcutter, and it has quickly become one of my favorites. So much so that I picked up the .44 caliber version with HP pins as well.

[Forrest r]

A link to testing done with 2" bbl's & 4" bbl's/38spl & 357 factory ammo.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#38spl

Myself I like 158gr to 170gr bullets in the snub nosed 38spl's. I have no problem getting 950fps to 1000+fps out of 2" bbl'd 38spl's (depending on the firearm) using 158gr/power pistol p+ loads. To me light bullets (110gr/125gr/135gr) are useless in a snubnosed 38spl. Buffalo bore has a 158gr lswc hp 38spl p+/1000fps (2") load/ammo.
Brian Pearce duplicated that ammo/load using a snub nosed ruger lcr (1.87" bbl), 158gr rimrock lead gc swc hp and 6.3gr of power pistol. The Pearce article was in the #276 handloader magazine (Feb-Mar) 2012.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=146

[Edward]

I say carry what you train with,I do because I can not afford that kind of expense with factory and I hate suprises !

[9.3X62AL]

I opted for "Carry Factory SD Loads", and my choice of loads would be one of the major-maker FBI-touted 38 Special +P LSWC/HP. This load is easily reloaded for practice ammo with affordable components--small powder weights, 158 grain lead SWC bullets, and SP primers. Carry factory stuff, crank it off yearly and swap in fresh ammo--reload the empties and add that to your practice supply.

[725]

I am of the mind that in a snubbie .38, a full wadcutter would be the best cast boolit to have chambered and any good 150ish - 160ish semi-wadcutter as re-load fodder. Wadcutters can be clumsy to chamber and a semi-wadcutters can help out fingers that stumble when hurried.

[Leslie Sapp]

A link to testing done with 2" bbl's & 4" bbl's/38spl & 357 factory ammo.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revo...cs-test/#38spl

That's a great link. It not only shows the difference in how various bullet types perform, it also shows how quickly performance falls off as barrel lengths and bullet speed diminishes.

I am curious as to the hardness of the factory lead used in these tests. I suspect a softer lead boolit would do somewhat better than the ones shown.

[Loudenboomer]

In the ultra lite revolvers 342 Smith and Taurus View (9oz.) This new ARX works well.


Firearms, cartridges and component design are rapidly and dramatically changing, although much of this change may not be visually obvious. Alloy steel or stainless steel may look the same when blackened, and a special steel alloy and heat treatment used to fabricate a super tough revolver cylinder may look the same as any other revolver. However, in the case of Ruger's new ARX ammunition, it would be difficult to miss the uniqueness of the product.



The center of the new Ruger ARX ammunition's universe is its uniquely fluted, copper and polymer composite bullet. The bullet's light weight, coupled with high velocity, results in high forward and lateral energy transfer for increased lethality. Reduced bullet weight results in reduced recoil which makes it easier to remain on target when multiple shots are fired. The bullet's low mass contributes to controlled penetration even though ARX ammo is not frangible.



Ruger ARX® Published Specifications

Caliber Bullet Weight
Grains Muzzle Velocity
fps Muzzle Energy
Ft. Lbs. Availability
380 Auto ARX 56 1315 215 Now
9mm Luger ARX 74 1540 385 Soon
40 S&W ARX 107 1320 414 Soon
45 Auto ARX 118 1350 461 Now

The ARX bullet was designed by PolyCase Ammunition and manufactured through a precision tolerance injection molding process. The composite that forms the bullet is made from a proprietary copper alloy and high tensile strength nylon. All components and ammunition are made in the U.S.. The company is located in Savannah, Georgia.

What a lethal bullet must accomplish in self defense...

A bullet can stop an attacker only by damaging or destroying the central nervous system or by causing profuse blood loss. To that end, a bullet penetrates and destroys tissue through compression and forms a permanent wound channel. The transfer of kinetic energy stretches tissue to form a temporary wound channel. That kinetic energy also can cause fragmentation; driving bullet and bone fragments outward causing secondary damage to tissue and blood vessels.

The shape of the ARX flutes cause exceptional amounts of hydraulic displacement, effectively transferring energy laterally as well as forward; a small but very intense high pressure hydraulic pump pushing outward from a wound channel. Wherever the fluid is driven, it does further damage to internal organs, the nervous system, muscle tissue and blood vessels; hydrostatic shock. No, not the type that theorizes a shot in the finger will make a toe explode and/or innards turned to jelly. Rather it is the type that has been part of the lethal bullet conversation since World War II, appeared in the April 1942 issue of Popular Mechanics as authored by California gunsmith Ralph Waldo Miller, and is based upon the same principles that allow a pressure washer to clean a boat or water jet machines to cut patterns in thick steel plate.

Or we can just shut up and show the results...

A Ruger LCP in 380 Auto with 2.75" barrel and an SR1911 in 45 Auto with a 5" barrel were selected for the live fire checkout. They are each typical within their respective applications.



With firearms and ammunition in hand, we set out to get a better understanding of Ruger's ARX performance, while trying to not indulge and/or engage the easily entertained with slow motion images of undulating ballistic gel. For the sake of comparison, we ran two other common types of ammunition along side the Ruger ARX as noted on the tables that follow.



Shots were recorded on a freshly calibrated chronograph. With the exception of the Ruger ARX ammo where we had no prior experience, the other ammo clocked typical fps.


Caliber
Ammunition
Bullet
Weight
Grains Rated
MV FPS Rated
ME Ft. Lbs Recorded
MV FPS
2.75" Bbl Calculated
ME Ft. Lbs
380 Auto PMC Bronze FMJ 90 961 185 861 148
380 Auto Remington Golden Saber JHP 102 940 200 803 146
380 Auto Ruger ARX Self Defense 56 1315 215 1275 202
Caliber
Ammunition
Bullet
Weight
Grains Rated
MV FPS Rated
ME Ft. Lbs Recorded
MV FPS
5.00" Bbl Calculated
ME Ft. Lbs
45 Auto Remington UMC FMJ 230 835 356 830 352
45 Auto Remington Ultimate Defense 230 875 391 864 381
45 Auto Ruger ARX Self Defense 118 1350 461 1352 479
-

Non-gratuitous, non-alcoholic Gel-O-Shots...

Most of the time, we run this part of ammo assessment by shooting into a couple of 16x6x6 ballistic gel blocks, recording depth of penetration, noting bullet track through the medium, then measuring and weighing the recovered slug. Here we had an instance where key features are hydraulic displacement and lateral energy transfer, so we took an analog approach to measurement.





With two blocks back to back for a total of 32", they were supported on narrow pieces of wood to minimize the amount of influence the supporting boards would have on the gel. Lengths of string were looped around the blocks, secured with a slip knot and indexed at the knot with a black marker. Expansion of the gel block from a bullet's lateral force or hydraulic displacement pulled the string through the slip knot and measurement was taken as illustrated by the red arrows in the picture above. Kite string was selected because it didn't cut into the gel block on expansion and because its low mass offered little resistance and gained virtually no momentum to expand beyond gel movement.


Caliber
Ammunition
Start
Bullet Wt
Grains End
Bullet Wt
Grains End
Bullet
Diameter " Penetration
Inches 2" Penetration
Lateral
Expansion 6" Penetration
Lateral
Expansion
380 Auto PMC Bronze FMJ 90.0 89.6 0.356 20.5 0.0 0.0
380 Auto Remington Golden Saber JHP 102.0 99.3 0.570 11.0 0.0 0.0
380 Auto Ruger ARX Self Defense 56.0 56.0 0.355 11.5 0.5 0.0
Caliber
Ammunition
Start
Bullet Wt
Grains Recovered
Bullet Wt
Grains End
Bullet
Diameter " Penetration
Inches 2" Penetration
Lateral
Expansion 6" Penetration
Lateral
Expansion
45 Auto Remington UMC FMJ 230.0 229.9 0.451 32.0+ 0.0 0.0
45 Auto Remington Ultimate Defense 230.0 230.0 0.740 14.5 0.6 0.2
45 Auto Ruger ARX Self Defense 118.0 113.4 0.451 15.5 1.7 0.8

-All shots into gel were from a distance of 10 feet


The 380 ARX did indeed demonstrate hydraulic displacement and lateral energy transfer to a measureable degree. The bullet tracked straight and it did leave a permanent wound channel at least as large as the expanded Golden Saber.



Ball ammo penetrated well beyond the others as it did not expand to increase its frontal area for increased drag. It also demonstrated no measureable signs of lateral energy transfer. Unfortunately, there are many autoloaders that require the rounded ogive of ball ammo to feed properly, reliably. Fortunately, the ARX bullet has a very similar contour and feeds as slick as ball ammo, so owners of these types of autoloaders are no longer stuck with low shock ball ammo as a sole choice.

Snappy recoil can make micro autoloaders chambered for the 380 Auto difficult to shoot. The lighter ARX bullet lessoned the LCP's recoil to a noticeable degree, making it easier to shoot with accuracy. The 380 Auto serves a very valid role in self defense, unfortunately, there are few good factory loads within that context. Many have impressive names, but either don't penetrate or don't expand when fired from short barrel guns. The Ruger ARX has no such problems.

The 45 Auto match up kept me out shooting a lot longer than anticipated in an effort to better understand the difference between these two types of approaches to bullet design. If anything, the larger bore comparison amplified the differences between the two.



Over the years, I've migrated to Golden Saber bullets in factory ammo and handloads. I was surprised by the amount of lateral energy and measureable hydraulic displacement the Ruger ARX bullet generated. The Golden Saber made a somewhat larger and more ragged permanent wound channel in the ballistic gel as it tumbled in a straight track and came to rest heel first. The ARX tracked straight, left a cleaner but slightly smaller permanent wound channel, but it really unloaded lateral energy to a much larger and easily measured degree and the ARX penetrated further than the Golden Saber.

There was no measurement of the ball ammo as it blew through 32" of gel without measureable lateral hydraulic transfer and parked itself somewhere down range, one of the reasons for shooting against a safe downrange backstop. The Ruger ARX offers the same advantages over ball ammo; no over penetration, much greater energy transfer and a similar bullet contour to assure feeding in autoloaders that specify ball ammo for reliable feed. OK, one gratuitous gel-o-shot of Ruger 45 Auto ARX...

Your browser does not support the video tag.

Accuracy

I had some concerns that the flutes in the ARX bullet would have a negative effect on accuracy and stability, however, that proved not to be the case, The spinning bullet creates a pressure cone or boundary layer that prevents the flutes from disrupting air flow.



I made the image above a little dark so that the distinctive holes left by the ARX bullets were clearly visible. At 50' rested, but not Ransom rested, the little LCP put up a 3/4" group, the best I've ever shot with this pistol, and the SR 1911 shot a 1 1/8" group. Very good accuracy from the Ruger ARX loads.

The stigma of powdered metal...

Seeing a composite of powdered metal and poly and I couldn't help but draw some associations with other brand's products that are made to be frangible; break up on material harder than tissue and won't penetrate sheetrock walls. Yes, PolyCase assures customers the ARX product is not frangible in the coming apart sense, but I never could leave well enough alone.

I made up a stack of 4, 1"x10"x10" pine boards separated at the edges with 1/2" thick hardwood plywood spacers. No, the intention wasn't to construct a board penetration box, the intention was only to see if the ARX bullets broke up on early impact with a hard surface. They did not. Pictured left, the 380 ARX was recovered at full weight from the last board, sideways, and loaded with chunks of wood the flutes chewed out of the boards.

The 45 Auto version of the ARX was not to be found in the same set up. Again, never an intention of checking pine board penetration, just a check to make sure the copper and poly bullet was not frangible and would not come apart with the first contact with a hard surface. The .45 caliber ARX literally blew the boards apart, putting the two halves together showed a bullet size hole punched through all four boards, suggesting lateral transfer of energy did all of the damage while the bullet stayed intact. There are no associations to draw. The ARX is a bullet of unique design, made with unique materials that performs as stated.

In closing, it's past my bed time



Not wanting to speculate, we posted the Ruger ARX product announcement, along with the developer's comments on the Real Guns Facebook page. We had ammunition on hand, but we wanted to take a little time to figure out how to assess some of the claims made regarding the bullet's performance and its unique personality. While there is a great deal of technical documentation from civilian and military sources to draw from for understanding, not a great deal could be interpreted and articulated for the site, so we constructed test methods everyone can duplicate.

We've worked with a number of uniquely formed bullets from other manufacturers, most the product of bar stock, a screw machine and a vivid imagination where most demonstrated poor performance. One cup nose solid, touted as intended for the biggest and most dangerous game, could not penetrate 7" of plain ballistic gel without making an abrupt left turn and exiting test medium, where the application called for yards of penetration.

In the case of the Ruger ARX ammunition, what looks very different overall, is actually a composite of very familiar, very sound and very mature design principles. What makes ARX ammunition work so well, is the thought process that put these elements together to form a product. Ruger ARX ammunition is priced approximately the same as other premium defensive ammo; approximately $22 for 20 rounds of 45 Auto ammo and $19 for 25 rounds of 380 Auto ammo.

[Loudenboomer]

Ruger lists the 77 gr .38 spl. @ 1116 FPS. Recoil is very mild, even in the 1" barrel 9 oz. Taurus View. The ruger load prints about 3" lower point of impact at 15 feet over a std. 125 gr 38 in my snubbys.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Full wadcutter would be my choice after the premium factory HP ammo available today. The 158 gr RFN would be next.

[sniper]

Discussions of this sort are great fun, and give everybody (me, too) a chance to air their opinions! Like Elbows, everybody has two!:mrgreen:
Me: I am deathly allergic to loud, sharp noises. All the symptoms of a panic attack!...Genetic inheritance...and, I don't like recoil! That's a heckuva combination for a shooter to have, no? If I thought I could get away with it, .22 Long Rifle SD for sure!

Having said that, I just don't understand those who insist on featherweight guns! 12-13 ozs! :shock: That's just breeding a flinch, imnho! I carried my 42 oz. 357 comfortably all day, but I realize there are people of smaller stature that may not find that possible. No wonder people are looking for "powderpuff" loads!

Minimum for me, 2" barrel, 3" is better; STEEL gun, at about 25 ozs. Good, hand fitting grips. Then when/if I can find it, good SD factory ammo, Speer 135gr. +P SB, and Remington 38 Spl. LSWCHP. +P.

I don't cast any more, but when I did the RCBS 150 gr. SWC proved excellent for IPSC competitons. BUT! The shoulder on the SWC did create a minor hang up now and then. RNFP might eliminate that. Buy a few boxes of whatever your choice of SD ammo may be, then load to nearly the same level with cast/plated/"J"woid projectiles for recreation/hunting/practice, as you wish. Then just sit and wait for another discussion like this to surface...don't worry, it won't be long...THEN, you can say; "IN MY CONSIDERED OPINION..." :mrgreen:

A couple of weeks ago, a fellow at the range Let me shoot his 6" 686 with Winchester White Box 110 gr. boolits...WOW! not bad atall atall! AND...it is findable in stores near me! Hmmm...:Bright idea:

[Mytmousemalibu]

My daily carry S&W 442 is loaded with my own handload using the Lehigh Extreme Defense 100gr. copper solid behind a charge of Silhouette. In my pocket is my reload, a speedloader of the new Federal .38 Special HST. Its almost a jacketed hollow-base wadcutter loaded backwards! Its made for short barreled snubbies and being its the cream of the crop in Federal's SD line and bears the HST moniker, im willing to bet it performs quite well. Its brand new stuff, I had it back ordered soon as I could do its not commonly available yet. I'm anxious to see some test videos hit the web. Its accurate and cuts clean wadcutter holes in paper! I may try to throw a test together myself!

201009

[35remington]

An educated guess would put penetration of 38 HST at the low end of FBI spec if not a little short of it. Hopefully I am a little wrong, but HST across the board in the calibers I am interested in tends to be as I described. I would like to see a less widely expanded bullet to help facilitate more penetration than the HST lineup normally provides.

If I don't like what it does I can shoot something else or stick with my full charge Lee wadcutters. Lower penetration ammo from a snubby does not appeal to me.

38 HST in a speedloader would be somewhat hangup prone compared to a bullet with a more rounded ogive protruding beyond the case mouth. In my opinion such rounds should be already in the gun and the speedloader ammo should be something more reload friendly.

The deep seating of the HST will reduce the velocity variation the 38 is known for with changes in powder position compared to conventionally seated bullets.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm more than just a bit skeptical of all of that advertising in post #45.

While it is true that damage to the CNS or rapid blood loss will stop the fight, I'm not convinced that ARX projectiles are the magic bullet to achieve those results. I'm not saying they are false claims but I am saying that I seriously doubt it's a magic bullet.

I'll wait for some real world data to accumulate before I abandon what has proven to work.

[Mytmousemalibu]

An educated guess would put penetration of 38 HST at the low end of FBI spec if not a little short of it. Hopefully I am a little wrong, but HST across the board in the calibers I am interested in tends to be as I described. I would like to see a less widely expanded bullet to help facilitate more penetration than the HST lineup normally provides.

If I don't like what it does I can shoot something else or stick with my full charge Lee wadcutters. Lower penetration ammo from a snubby does not appeal to me.

38 HST in a speedloader would be somewhat hangup prone compared to a bullet with a more rounded ogive protruding beyond the case mouth. In my opinion such rounds should be already in the gun and the speedloader ammo should be something more reload friendly.

The deep seating of the HST will reduce the velocity variation the 38 is known for with changes in powder position compared to conventionally seated bullets.

I can't say I disagree with you and are all valid concerns that had crossed my mind. With the new .38 HST being supposedly optimized for short barrels, I hope Federal did their homework to address some of the problems with .38 pocket snubbies. The HST has been on the market for quite a while in standard calibers but not in .38 Special, only the older hydroshock. If i had to guess, they might have had problems getting a more conventional HST design to work and hence the long delay? My has been choice that stays in the gun, that Lehigh copper solid XD addresses some of my concerns. It is light for caliber which it trades off in speed and due to the non-expanding design, penetrates well and it makes it a non clogging, barrier blind design that damages by fluid dynamics. Not everyone takes to this design but to each his own, im not judging. Hopefully should I ever need them, they do the job just fine and I am comfortable in trusting them. I don't carry more of them on my person for a simple reason, they are fairly sharp and they will tear up my pants. I know that sounds like a stupid reason, not to say it isn't, but chances I need to ever use my carry gun are remote, hopefully things stay that way, but if the climate I live in changes, I will reconsider my choices. I'm already at a disadvantage by only carrying a J-frame, obviously I'm comfortable with it. The new HST definitely won't shred my pants, which is a plus and it is completely different by design from my other ammo should it fail to work and I also carry a speedloader with 158gr plated RN in another pocket. With the bullet fully in the case with a nice roll crimp over the mouth, the short rounds are ridged in the speedloader and the short length actually makes the speedloader dumped in the cylinder. The longer the round, the more wiggly they seem and length makes getting them in tricky too so that is almost a draw. If i had to guess, the bullets seated like target wadcutters probably makes for a more efficient powder space, better burn and performance with more uniform spreads. It also might be partially be a way to gain false barrel length in these short barrels? I did pull a bullet to have a look at it and to see what the charge is like. The powder is a fine grain ball that seems to be pretty dang fast burning and if I recall, 4.3gr. I bet they are trying to drive that 130gr jacketed trash barrel up to speed as fast as possible. It's got some snap to it for sure, among the hottest if not the hottest +P ammo I have put in a J-frame. The guns its designed for by nature are a comprise, hopefully Federal capitalized on as much as they could for the new round.

[35remington]

My, if the longer rounds in the speedloader do not spin freely with the cylinder when inserted the speed loader is rubbing the grips. Relieve the grip and the rounds will drop in cleanly. I really cannot imagine a worse round for a speed loader than 38 HST.

[Mytmousemalibu]

I ran into that problem when I got the pistol because of the factory boot grip. It was great for comfortable shooting but ot didn't play well with speedloaders. That is why I put the classic style Altamont version, magna-like grips on the gun. They are thinner and much nicer though. They could be thinned a tad on the left but they are about as good as it gets. I practice with the gun including reloading it fairly regularly and I shoot revolvers for IDPA every other week. So I stay in good practice, far more than the vast majority of folks. I don't find it too difficult with the HST to be honest but I'm probably the exception. A round nose or truncated cone will index easier, no doubt.

[Djones]

I'm more than just a bit skeptical of all of that advertising in post #45.

While it is true that damage to the CNS or rapid blood loss will stop the fight, I'm not convinced that ARX projectiles are the magic bullet to achieve those results. I'm not saying they are false claims but I am saying that I seriously doubt it's a magic bullet.

I'll wait for some real world data to accumulate before I abandon what has proven to work.

Are all barrels rifled in the same twist direction? It looks like those ARX bullets want to only go down the tube and spin in one direction in order to get the venturi affect they are talking about on the target.

[Petrol & Powder]

Are all barrels rifled in the same twist direction? It looks like those ARX bullets want to only go down the tube and spin in one direction in order to get the venturi affect they are talking about on the target.

Who knows?

When the ARX develops 15 or 20 years worth of street results (if it remains on the market that long), I'll give an opinion on it.

The ARX may be a great round but I'm not into fads, gimmicks and new trends when it comes to SD ammo. I've seen a lot of slick marketing in my life and I'm not impressed by it.

Meanwhile, I'll stick with rounds that have well established track records in snubnose revolvers.

[35remington]

Same twist direction? Nope! Colts have left hand twist, Smiths right hand twist.

My, I figure I need whatever helps my reload to be more likely to be successful, and if I need to reload the revolver it is likely not to come off as smoothly as I want in real life as opposed to practice. Maximum reliability even with Murphy in the mix comes with a more forgiving shape to be inserted in the cylinder.

Even practicing I cannot load a wadcutter as easily and reliably as a protruding bullet cartridge.

[Petrol & Powder]

ARX = slick marketing

[9.3X62AL]

As a boy, I was taught that "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." Hence my comments on ARX ammo. I was born at night--but it wasn't last night.

[USSR]

The 158gr bullet in the middle and on the right came out of a snub nose revolver. Is that enough expansion for ya?

201170

Don

[jmort]

If that was shot into water, no.
Ballistic gelatin, yes, very impressive.

[texasnative46]

To All,

I once (LONG ago) was the sole railroad detective was a small railroad & fell in love with a BIG/HEAVY bullet made of 98% lead & about 2% tin for self-defense in the rail-yards & using either my S&W Model 64 snubbie and/or my D-frame Colt's revolver.
(The only living creature that I ever had to dispatch in a rail-yard was a VERY large & vicious stray dog that tried to take me down about midnight. I would guess that he weighed at least 140-150 pounds. = That 200+ lead CB out of the Model 64 ended his attack, literally in mid-air & before he could take my face off.)

Even at a relatively low speed out of that short barrel, the BIG lead CB makes an awful mess in the K5 area of the human body.
(I've attended several autopsies & have SEEN what a tumbling & "heavy for caliber" soft lead slug does to bones & soft tissue. = A nearby LA sheriff's department issued .38SPL "Super Police" loads for their Model 28 S&W revolvers & for the department-issued Model 10 snub-nose S&Ws, so I saw several lethal wounds from those handguns.)

just my opinion, tex

[gtrpickr]

As expected there is alot of different opinions to be had on this subject. I think a person should carry what they feel comfortable with that being said I think a cast hp boolit using the right alloy would do the job in a SD situation. I have watched some testing done with cast hp's in ballistic gel and they had real good expansion. I take gel tests with a grain of salt they do give you an idea of what a bullet might do but in a real world situation there are alot of elements to condider such as buttons,zippers, jewelry etc. It is easy to get caught up in the hype of the latest and greatest new ammo or how this ammo tested in gel but for me I want to shoot it and if I feel its going to do the job then I will carry it in my own firearm to protect myself and my family.