Thinking of ditching LEE Dies

[Gunfreak25]

I appreciate the lower price especially for oddball stuff like the Martini Henry dies and 8x56r, etc. But I bought a deluxe 45 colt die set from Lee and like most of their other dies, it really over works the brass. Internal neck diameter of .445!! My 255 grain RNFP's are sized to .452. That's quite a squeeze. The die set does come with a .450 expander which is nice, but the initial sizing IMO still works the brass too much.


I used to be satisfied with their dies when I first began reloading as a teen but through the years as I have learned and refined my reloading practices there really are much better options and well worth the added expense. Edited for tone, sounded like I was really bashing LEE. They do make some great stuff but I guess some sets are better than others...

[dragon813gt]

I can guess which members are going to pile on in this thread :popcorn:

[Gunfreak25]

I edited my post for tone, don't want to step on Lee's or anyone toes. Just a little disappointed with this die set. Hell for $40 bucks I should probably just shut up.

[NikA]

I had this issue with Lee .44 dies and lapped them out with diamond lapping paste to a size that I was happy with. I tend to think that this is more the result of the difficulty of working with carbide and different chamber tolerances rather than a problem specific to Lee. I suspect that an average customer would be more unhappy with a die set that didn't size enough versus one that sized too much.

[dragon813gt]

I edited my post for tone, don't want to step on Lee's or anyone toes. Just a little disappointed with this die set. Hell for $40 bucks I should probably just shut up.

These threads always go one way. Maybe I'm lucky, but all of my Lee dies are in spec. Or should I say w/in a spec that l'm happy w/. Minimal run out and results on target that are good are what I care about.

I would not be happy w/ the brass sizing down that much. Go through the online warranty claim on their site. I've had good luck w/ it the few times I've had to use it. Hopefully their response is the one you want to hear.

[Char-Gar]

Many reloaders as they develop their skills and knowledge become more sophisticated and discriminating about their equipment. Your experience is not unique.

[lefty o]

come on now, dont dare say anything bad about lee, or you will get all the lee basher basher's riled up! LOL

[lightload]

Could you have received a 45 acp sizing die by error?

[ShooterAZ]

I still have a few Lee dies that are working just fine. Mostly though, I have switched them over to RCBS and Redding. Not Lee bashing at all, it's simply a matter of "you get what you pay for". I have donated many of my Lee dies to new reloaders just getting started, so I'm sure they are still being used and it's its for a good cause.

[Hannibal]

I believe I would have to agree with the 'level of experience' thought. I find as time goes on I am more and more inclined to make my own dies, expanders, mandrels, etc., because no one has exactly what I want, and it takes just about as long to modify something as it does to make it from scratch.

Not an option for everyone, I realize.

[GhostHawk]

I do believe that you get what you pay for mostly.

Personally all of my dies are Lee except an old .270 2 die set. Which I don't use, bought it to reload for dad's deer rifle but he preferred factory ammo.

There are a few minor annoyances here and there. But if when I started I had been forced to buy all RCBS or other dies I would load for half as many calibers. So IMO it is a trade off.

The choice is yours, know yourself, your needs, choose wisely.

[bedbugbilly]

I like my Lee dies in general that I have - both pistol and rifle BUT, when I added 45 Colt, I talked with another reloader who had the same issue as you with his set of Lees - and I'm not saying that to slam or bad mouth Lee. I only have one 45 Colt and I only FL resize my brass when it is new (such as Starline). After that, I neck size - and I'm using there same boolit that you are. I load with a hodge lodge of different dies for the 45 Colt mainly because I picked up the sizing die, expanding die, seating, crimp, etc. separately. I use an old Lyman AA carbide sizing die - and because I de-prime in a separate operation with a Lee universal de-priming die - I don't have to FL size due to de-priming in the same operation. I picked up my Lyman AA carbide sizing die off of flea bay at a very reasonable price.

If you like the Lee dies in general other than the sizing die - you might want to see if you can find a FL sizing die, Lyman, RCBS, etc. and go with that and sell your Lee sizing die to offset the cost? Just a thought.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

I have been slowly replacing my Lee dies to
RCBS or Redding over the years Lee just reminds me of Harbor Freight tools they work but there are better out there

[Ken in Iowa]

The Redding dual ring sizer is a spendy but worthwhile upgrade to an otherwise good die set.

[Boolit_Head]

For once I did not buy Lee dies for my 300 Blackout. I picked up a set of Hornady new dimension dies, Nice and all but they leave a bad ridge on all the lead bullets.

[country gent]

I use some lee dies and for what your wanting with the 45 colt I would modify the die a little and use it. But if its carbide that's a bigger issue then to modify. At work I had access to an ID grinder and diamond wheels and a plunger edm so carbide was no problem. For a lot of my rifle I have neck bushing dies, redding or ones I modified to use neck bushings from standard dies. Almost all factory dies work brass small due to varying wall thickness and the expander bell die opens it up to closer to correct as your Lees are doing. Maybe not to the extent your are but they all work small and open up.

[Bzcraig]

The 45 Colt dies are the only ones I've had a issue with and it was just the FL Sizer, so I picked up a RCBS sizer. I also found out from a thread here that 45 Colt is slightly tapered and Rossi have an oversized chamber which exacerbated the problem

[jmorris]

I think its a great idea. Put them in the pay it forward forum and new guys could get into the hobby with the stuff you no longer want to use.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I don't buy expensive dies for common cartridges. I also don't believe in one color of tools. I get what is best for the particular job, and that usually means specific tools from different manufacturers.

What I really don't like is paying for a premium tool, only to find out it is not as good as the cheap one I could have bought from Harbor Freight or ?.

Lee dies are made nicely and I personally have not had any problems with them. They also make some dies that are the best out there or the only ones out there. The Collet Style Neck Sizer and Collet Style Crimp Dies are the best there is. They are also the only ones there is. Wonder why?

For doing mass production like on .223 cases the Collet Crimp Die saves so much time as case length does affect a Roll Crimp. It doesn't affect the Collet Die at all.

Yesterday and the day before I made videos of my hand press loading .44 Mags and .308's I used a variety of dies for each one.

With the .44's I used a C&H Sizing die, a Lee Ram Prime, A C&H Expander/Flare with a Lee Funnel on top a C&H Seater and a Pacific Seating Die with the stem removed to Roll crimp the cases.

For .303 British I use a Lee Collet Neck Sizer, Lee Powder die, Lee Bullet Seater and either a RCBS Seating die to do the roll crimp Cast Boolits or a collet die for jacketed bullets. No one set of dies had everything I needed.

I use a Lee FCD for de-bulging .40 S&W cases which cost me $12. I returned the Redding De-bulging die that cost me $65 because the knurling was double struck and looked like ship! I am an EXPERT KNURLER and so I do know the difference, and this is not the kind of Workmanship that I expected from the outfit that claims to be the best there is in Reloading Equipment. None of their tools have impressed me all that much, and I don't see any big difference over RCBS or others, except generally they are twice as much.

It is pointless to spend the extra $ just to get a name brand when it isn't really any better. When it actually is better then sure. But you really have to know the difference,,, and many people do not.

Some people compare my Hand Press to the HDS Press or even the Lee Hand Press. The HDS press was similar to mine and the price was similar at first. However the Lee Press is only $50 or less, but it won't stand up by itself and neither would the HDS tool.

So you have to ask yourself,,, "will the BPM tool be worth the extra money to me?" The quality is obviously above the other two, and the "tactile gratification" (feels good in your hand) is definitely there, and it works really well, and will last along time, so those are all good reasons. I even think it looks better, but I may be prejudiced.

But just buying something because it is the most expensive thing of it's type out there is, IMHO,,, Stupid!

You don't always get what you thought you paid for.

So you need to kind of educate yourself when buying pretty much anything nowadays.

When you do get what you paid for it is satisfying and generally can be considered a good investment. You soon forget the price.

My Dad always said,,, "Buy the best and only cry once." The thing I always debated is what actually constitutes the "best?"

The price shouldn't be the only defining factor. The "value in use" should be! IMO

That said you should all check out the new videos of the Hand Press. There's a thread on this page with the addresses.

Randy

[RogerDat]

I have to agree price can put you in a different league but sometimes the price is really steep to move up a rather modest amount.
Redding makes a sizing die for 45 colt at over $100, and RCBS makes one for $34, and that entire Lee set probably ran around $40. I plink with 45 colt, or .38 or .357 then I'm not going to have a reason to drop $100 on a single die. Even if I overwork the brass compared to ideal amount the brass will still last a long calendar time because it doesn't get reloaded that often. If I was shooting competitive cowboy action shooting and a typical week saw me firing a whole lot of practice rounds the brass would wear faster and might warrant a more expensive sizing die. I can't think of any reason I would spend $100 on a single die. I just wouldn't get enough perceived value to warrant the extra cost. Too many other goodies I might buy with those extra bucks.

I would contact the seller about the warranty from Lee. I have only done so once but Titan contacted Lee and CC'd me on the email, I called Lee after that email from Titan and they sent me a replacement die. I didn't get called or contacted for over a week so I went ahead and called Lee, the Lee people were friendly and helpful. I just think they should have contacted me before then. I would note that shipping was also free BUT people have reported that if you order anything else to ship along with the warranty part then shipping is charged.

[flashhole]

Did you ever consider that your gun may have an overly generous chamber and the Lee dies are conforming to SAMMI standards and it's you gun that is out of spec?

[starnbar]

As some others here have stated I have lapped a few of my lee dies due to generous chambers and they work just fine just my two cents worth I have sets of all most every caliber and dies of every make they all do what they are supposed to do nuff said.

[6bg6ga]

Bottom line...you get what you pay for and I won't take it any further.

[jcwit]

Bottom line

Value is still to be had and not by high cost of item.

Seriously doubt anyone on this forum drives a Rolls Royce!

[6bg6ga]

Some manufactures don't know what value is. I suggest purchasing another brand.

[jcwit]

Then again some do!

Your option as to what you purchase!

[Recluse]

But I bought a deluxe 45 colt die set from Lee and like most of their other dies, it really over works the brass. Internal neck diameter of .445!! My 255 grain RNFP's are sized to .452. That's quite a squeeze. The die set does come with a .450 expander which is nice, but the initial sizing IMO still works the brass too much.


I used to be satisfied with their dies when I first began reloading as a teen but through the years as I have learned and refined my reloading practices there really are much better options and well worth the added expense. Edited for tone, sounded like I was really bashing LEE. They do make some great stuff but I guess some sets are better than others...

I have a set of 45 Colt dies from Lee that I purchased many years ago. To this day, I fire very little 45 Colt so the dies get used very little. They do a superb job and I have no complaints, especially with the full length sizing and flaring dies. In my opinion, Lee's weakness in dies continues to be with their bullet seating dies and it seems to have only gotten worse with their newer generation of dies as has their QC.


These threads always go one way. Maybe I'm lucky, but all of my Lee dies are in spec. Or should I say w/in a spec that l'm happy w/. Minimal run out and results on target that are good are what I care about.

I would not be happy w/ the brass sizing down that much. Go through the online warranty claim on their site. I've had good luck w/ it the few times I've had to use it. Hopefully their response is the one you want to hear.

I've got older Lee dies I purchased via mail order from over thirty years ago that are dead-nuts on in the specs and function flawlessly. Several of the sets have seen heavy use--as in having had tens of thousands of cases run through them with zero problems or issues.

But the more recent stuff, especially in the past decade. . . not so impressed. Lee's QC continues to be spotty at best, sloppy to non-existent at most. More disturbing is some of the "push back" that is received when you get the wrong CSR on the phone and the tone of the conversation is that you are the problem, not the equipment. But quality and calibrated micrometers and calipers don't lie. . . I don't like hearing from them that "all I need to do is rub some 300 grit wet sandpaper in/on/around. . ." If I have to finish the job to make a product within spec and usable, then there was no QC the day that product left the factory.

I've just done away with that process by moving many of Lee's products to the "if there are no other suitable options for a reasonable price" place in the line of purchasing order.




They (Lee) also make some dies that are the best out there or the only ones out there. The Collet Style Neck Sizer and Collet Style Crimp Dies are the best there is. They are also the only ones there is.

Randy

I do like my Lee collet Neck Sizer dies--especially for somewhat rarer cartridges like .303 and 7.62x 54R. Never an issue with them.

:coffee:

[popper]

Good to see you back.

[atr]

I have one set of Lee dies and they work just fine....
I also have two sets of old Herter's dies that I still use..
Except for those three sets of dies all my others are RCBS...
I especially like RCBS because of their quality and their service. RCBS is great when it come to replacing damaged or worn out parts.

[abunaitoo]

I use all Lee dies for cast Boolets.
It's so easy to size the neck larger for larger diameter boolets.
The sizers are cheap enough that I can experiment what size works the best for different rifles.
Also cheap enough so I can modify them to my needs.
I do use RCBS for jacketed, but don't shoot much of those anymore.

[noylj]

.45 Colt cases come in a WIDE range of case wall thicknesses and that over-sizing is quite common for ALL companies. This is why you use an expander to bring ALL case IDs up to the target point.
Never lost a case yet from over-work that I can tell.

[Andy]

I do hate their lock rings, just replacing the lee lock rings with the hornady ones on each set alone makes up the difference in price for most of the sets (once you factor in the free bullets). I'm glad lee offers things at such a low price though, as it helps people get into the sport or reload for a caliber that they might not otherwise so they are filling a niche that is valuable, it is just not for me.

[flashhole]

I had mixed feelings about Lee die rings too. Then years went by and I was using them for various reloading projects. The more I used them the more I appreciated what they offered. Now I use Lee die rings on all my dies.

[jcwit]

I make my own lock rings and drill a hole and tap it it for a set screw, small piece of lead shot protects the threads on the die.

Access to a mill supply is advantagious.

[troyboy]

The best thing about this been hashed out many many times is RECLUSE. Good to see you back

[mdi]

Just wondering, what's the purpose of the OP? No question, just a complaint. BTW I have a RCBS 9mm seating die that's just plain !@#!!. I tried the die in my Co-Ax and it can"t get less than .004" variation in OAL. Junk. I don't think I'll ever buy RCBS dies ever again....

Sorta, maybe, could be...:roll:

[troyboy]

I mustn't drink and type. I'm sure most get the jist of my earlier post.

[Recluse]

I do hate their lock rings, just replacing the lee lock rings with the hornady ones on each set alone makes up the difference in price for most of the sets (once you factor in the free bullets). I'm glad lee offers things at such a low price though, as it helps people get into the sport or reload for a caliber that they might not otherwise so they are filling a niche that is valuable, it is just not for me.

I failed to mention that Lee has come out with something (fairly) new that I definitely like--their "quick trim" dies and case-trimming system.

Holy mother of mariachi midgets riding mini-bikes!

My oldest daughter has discovered the Winchester 94 in 30-30 and the "plinking" rounds I load up for it (170FN pushed by 10 grains of Unique). Youngest daughter has discovered the Mini-14 and 5.56mm. Those Lee quick-trim die and cutter set-ups are the cat's south-end for doing moderate to large quantities of case-trimming in a short amount of time.

According to my calipers, they (the trimmers) are quite accurate as well.

For my accuracy stuff, I still trim and work cases one at a time, carefully and thoroughly. But for my plinking brass, those Lee dies and trimmers are incredible.

:coffee:

[Jeffjmr]

I wanted my Lee .45 Colt dies to size to .480 OD. Being carbide, I hesitated to tackle this myself.

Sorry I don't remember if they charged me or not, if they did it was reasonable, but I sent it back to Lee and it came back sizing my brass to exactly .480. Problem solved.

[6bg6ga]

My mailbox remains empty. I think OP was joshing us.

I'll look and see if I have a Lee die in my junk box still. If my memory is correct I purchased a 9mm crimp die only to find that it was causing havic with the case mouth. I quit using it and simply bought a new crimp/seating die from RCBS.

Granted you can either get a good set or a bad one. Generally the quality of every die set was better 30 years ago than it is now simply because now days they are concerned with getting more product out the door and to hell with quality. Honestly I have tried other peoples Lees dies and their simply not for me.

[Recluse]

Granted you can either get a good set or a bad one. Generally the quality of every die set was better 30 years ago than it is now simply because now days they are concerned with getting more product out the door and to hell with quality. Honestly I have tried other peoples Lees dies and their simply not for me.

Yep. Thirty years ago, we had a lot fewer reloaders and the manufacturers were competing for market share. Fast forward to the recent political climate of the past eight or more years and the (reloading) market has exploded in growth. Now it's about how much and how fast a manufacturer can pump out to meet the demand. When that happens, the old idiom of "Want it Fast, Cheap, Good? Pick two and only two."

A LOT of my reloading equipment that I purchased more than twenty and thirty years ago is still superior in quality and materials and workmanship compared to what I'm getting today. On the other hand, some of the optics and sights and peripherals for the firearms themselves are vastly superior to what I was purchasing thirty years ago.

:coffee:

[W.R.Buchanan]

As someone who is involved daily with Machine work and that technology in general I am here to tell you that virtually anything made on todays machines is superior to things made 20-30 years ago.

New machinery is not only more accurate, it is easier to program and there are more features that help you produce better parts. Finishes are better now too.

How those machines are used and who is using them is where the differences are. Also Quality Control has not changed and what is "considered acceptable" to go out the door is now the defining factor for Commercial Parts.
Not strict adherence to a drawing or standard. This level of acceptance varies with whomever is inspecting.

Sometimes you can't just reject parts that don't look exactly like the last ones. They simply cost too much to make and if they will work you have to use them. I run into this myself all the time. This has to do with each individuals idea of what the part is supposed to look like when it is done. You can have 5 different parts with exactly the same dimensions on them, but each looks completely different from the others. All of the parts are made to the print so theoretically they are good to go and would work just fine. But they look different.

In order to get consistent parts you must clearly define what is acceptable and what's not. (and its a good idea to supply a Sample Part) That way there is no misunderstanding as to what is expected.

Defining Finishing Techniques is also important.

There are two basic things that define Craftsmanship. Attention to Detail, and Personal Responsibility.

Attention to Detail is self explanatory.

Personal Responsibility is all about not letting the things you found wrong during the "attention to detail phase," go out the door.

This is where most outfits fall off. This is also usually perpetrated by employees that don't give a ship about what they are doing. They need to get plumbed up, or they need to go out the door! I have no tolerance for these people and I don't care if you are building Rockets or Flippin' Burgers, if you don't care about what you are doing, I got no use for you. Pretty vocal about this when I see it in action too.

Lots of Fast Food places suffer from this problem. The places with good supervision don't.

A friend once told me that "if there is a problem at a company, it is a management problem!" This is pretty easy to figure out and yet it happens everyday and goes uncorrected at lots of companies thruout the world.

These are places to avoid. Our government offices are places where this is normal. I try to avoid them at all cost, but sometimes I just have to endure their BS to get what I want out of them. Anybody been to a Social Security Office lately?

I rest my case.

Randy

[flashhole]

Randy - chit is a better word than ship. I agree with you. I work for a very large defense contractor. The problems we deal with are ALWAYS associated with how we manage our business. Uncorrected management short comings is a fact of life. Sad but true. I view most managers the same way Trump views "100,000 non-essential Government employees" why the heck do we have them in the first place. ..... wait ..... we can thank the democrats for that.

[6bg6ga]

So you buy a die ? It does not work right ? You don't call the maker to see if you are using it wrong ? You don't spend 6 bucks for a flat rate envelope to send it back ? That makes perfect sense to who ?

I have FOUR Lee 4 die handgun die sets. When RTFI is followed they all work perfectly. Of course I read the instructions for the proper use of a 4 die set. Did I mention one set is 9mm ?????

Friend i don't know how you would use a die wrong. I was a master machinist so I sincerely doubt that I need someone to tell me how to use a die that combined with 50 years of reloading make your response rather laughable.

[flashhole]

I don't think so unless humor was intended (which i think it was). I've seen people who can't open a milk container without reading and studying the instructions. His response was a bit facetious but accurate.

[John Boy]

But I bought a deluxe 45 colt die set from Lee and like most of their other dies, it really over works the brass. Internal neck diameter of .445!! My 255 grain RNFP's are sized to .452. Call Lee Precision and send it back
Lee Guarantee ... http://leeprecision.com/satisfaction-guaranteed.html

I shoot 45LC exclusively for CAS. All the dies on the Dillon are Lee. The 45LC's are 454190 and the base diameters are 0.454. The Lee FL die sizes the brass and in the seating station - the bullets seat and do not expand the cases and the crimped reloads are not pregnant.

[kmrra]

I pretty much use Lee dies now days because of the price , I havent had any problem with them at all as lond at they go bang im OK. That being said , Lee does screw up at times , their QC department sometimes drops the ball. But then again Ive seen well known gun makers put out junk too.

[Hannibal]

'Too many people spend money they've earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like.'

Will Rogers

Lots of egos on display in this thread.

[ShooterAZ]

Friend i don't know how you would use a die wrong. I was a master machinist so I sincerely doubt that I need someone to tell me how to use a die that combined with 50 years of reloading make your response rather laughable.

I find all of happywarrior's posts either laughable or offensive. He has nothing useful to add to this forum, and only wants to stir up trouble. He has been placed on my ignore list, and I hope that the mods catch onto him soon and straighten him out. He reminds me very, very much of a former member here who has been banned.

Edit to say that the Mod's caught onto him. He has been banned.

[salpal48]

Lee is what they were meant to be Cheap For the Loader who does not or will not spend Money. There serviceable I have several. and Use them. In caliber that I don't Load a Lot. . I also Have RCBS, Lyman, and a lot of CH and Herters. Some thing I like about Them and some Don't. I do not like there Decap rods, Expanders and There seating system
Well Thinking about It I don't Like Much of there Dies, but still use them

[Hannibal]

I'd tend to agree that while there are exceptions, for the most part I find most any die will work IF I take the time to pay attention and modify my set-up/techniques to accommodate the equipment at hand. And I find the same can be said for moulds, scales, powder measures, etc, etc, etc.

When I find something extremely convenient and satisfying, rarely do I find it to be inexpensive. So. I find myself living with A LOT of inconvenience. But I make it work.

YMMV.

[oldhenry]

The only Lee die I own is a collet set for .270 & it's is excellent.

Even the best manufacturer will send something out the door that is not exactly right. Years back I bought a Redding .38/357 "Pro" die set for my Dillon. The seating die was useless because it was so tight that it removed the bell from the mouth & shaved lead. A call to Redding had me sending it back to Redding (my dime) & from my conversation I had doubts that they understood the problem. The die is returned & was no better than it was when sent. Another call to Redding: another return (my dime) & when returned finally worked OK (with a notation on the paper work " altered to customers request"). This leaves me wondering if they really understood the problem from the beginning.

Case #2 with Redding: 7X57 die set. After resizing the bullet would fall through the case neck (no tension). Call to Redding followed by returning to Redding (my dime). When received back, I swear they sent me the same die. Bullet falls through the neck. Return again (my dime) & when received back was OK. Does this mean all Redding dies are problematical?.....certainly not. They make good stuff & have some good employees, but I just happened to get connected with someone that either did not care ......or, just made an honest mistake.
Incidentally, the crimp die with that set produced an ugly crimp. I put it in the junk drawer & screwed in a 50 year old Lyman item & everything works OK. BTW, I love my Redding Ultra Mag.
I never bought a Redding die since.

I also stopped buying RCBS anything after my "Green Machine" experience. Now it's Dillon dies for the handgun calibers & Hornady for the rife calibers.

I changed my buying habits as a results of my experience........maybe not the smart thing to do, but I feel better.
I didn't mean to rant.
Henry

[mdi]

'too many people spend money they've earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like.'

will rogers

lots of egos on display in this thread.

Amen!

[SgtWest]

own several Lee dies I just reload for hunting and practice . The only time i have had problem was my part not the equipment .Redding is only30 minute away from me one day like to take a look.

[1bluehorse]

I've owned several sets of Lee dies in the past. I moved on to RCBS dies because (I) think they're better (and they only cost about 10 bucks more than Lee dies for a rifle set). I've since moved on from RCBS rifle dies to Forster because (I) think the Forster's are better dies. I still use some RCBS dies for handgun but have mostly moved to Hornadys. People buy Lee equipment because it's cheap then they try and convince themselves and others that it's as good as any out there. Your LoadMaster is not as good as a Dillon 650, nor a Hornady LNL. I do not own either of those presses, but have owned a few LM's and now use an RCBS Pro 2000 which is also much better than the LM. And it goes on down the line with Lee equipment in comparison with others with the exception of a very small number of good pieces as in the Lee collet die, maybe the six banger molds ( I have a couple of those and they work o.k., can't really think of much else on short notice) If all reloading equipment as we know it today carried the same price tag per part there probably wouldn't be much discussion of Lee equipment, so it's pretty much all about cost for Lee buyers. So, no, I don't care for Lee dies. Just my opinion of course.

[dragon813gt]

People buy Lee equipment because it's cheap then they try and convince themselves and others that it's as good as any out there.

I love when people make massive assumptions like this. There are many reasons people buy Lee. Cost is but one of them. Results on target are all that matter. Use whatever brand you want. But I find the people that buy higher end dies tend to bash Lee because they need to justify the higher costs of their purchase.

[ShooterAZ]

I love when people make massive assumptions like this. There are many reasons people buy Lee. Cost is but one of them. Results on target are all that matter. Use whatever brand you want. But I find the people that buy higher end dies tend to bash Lee because they need to justify the higher costs of their purchase.

Ummm....Talk about massive assumptions! Yes use whatever brand you want, but please don't try to convince us that your Lee dies are superior to my Redding or RCBS...It's obvious that you love your Lee dies and that's OK. I have a few sets left, and they work but there's no way in hell do they even begin to compare to the higher end dies. Do you you shoot silhouette or benchrest? I do, ask a few of these guys in your area what they use.. sorry it's not gonna be Lee.

[dragon813gt]

Hey, if you guys can make massive assumptions so can I. Stop trying to convince people that Lee dies don't work. Fact is they do. People can buy and use whatever they want. You don't see Lee users saying other brands are junk. But the brand snobs never disappoint.

[ShooterAZ]

Are you a Lee snob?:kidding:

[308Jeff]

I really like the Lee Factory Crimp Dies.

I really like the Lyman M Expander Dies.

I really like the Hornady Lock Rings.

I really like the RCBS Gold Medal Match Seater Dies.

I really like the Redding Type S Neck Bushing Dies.

Doesn't matter what it costs, or how much you pay, buy what works well for you.

[koger]

I have had great luck with Lee pistol die sets, but gotten some really sloppy rifle dies. I no longer use Lee rifle dies for anything.

[mdi]

I've been working with hand tools since I had my first mechanic's job; I got paid one battery, 6 volt and one GM generator to change a starter in an old Chrysler when I was 13 (70 now). I appreciate fine tools (I even have a lot of Snap-On and MAC), but I also appreciate tools that do the job they were designed for, and will last, same with reloading equipment. I have Redding dies, RCBS dies Pacific Dies and Lee dies. I have C-H, Pacific, Lee and Co-Ax presses. Yes, some have a better finish, but I seriously doubt if anyone can tell which dies/equipment I use to load some ammo, by inspection or shooting.

The only thing that comes out of these Lee threads is uncovering Lee Haters/tool snobs and free advertising for Lee...

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'm gonna say something here that everyone really needs to pay attention to.

Dumping a Company because you got one bad tool from them is not a really good idea.

If all you get is bad tools then fine.

But what you really need to consider is DO YOU? "Really know the difference between a good tool and a bad one?" Also can you really tell if the tool is bad, or if you are the problem?

There are quite a few Machinists on this site. I would expect that they can tell the difference, simply because they work around this type of stuff everyday and should be able to visually inspect a die and decide if it has a problem or not. If you work at McDonalds, maybe not.

If you shove a case into a sizing die and it comes out with a big groove in it,,, then the die is probably bad and you can probably send it back and get a new one. If the die produced good cases in the past and then starts to put a groove in them, then you probably ruined it yourself.

Just because you paid 2-10 times more for something doesn't mean you can't screw it up.

Judging a product solely by its cost is not a viable way to assess the quality or usability of a product. Sometimes it may have a place in determining whether or not you should purchase the tool, but IMHO should never be the sole consideration. Thinking you are getting the best there is simply because it costs more than every other similar product is no longer a valid assumption. Never was really.

I bought a Timing light from Kragen Auto Parts. $79.95, and a friend bought a timing light off the Snap Truck for $279.95. They were the exact same product except for a Snap On Sticker on the side instead of the Kragen Sticker. One came in a Snap On box the other didn't have a box.

I almost Puked when I saw that Snap On was Selling Tools made in China with their name on them.

Except they aren't charging Harbor Freight Prices !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In todays world the only way to not get ripped off is to become educated on what you are buying and shop the hell out of it. Too many places to buy the same stuff now and with Amazon and Ebay you don't even have to leave your house.

Somebody coined the phrase a long time ago that "You get what you pay for."

I'm here to tell you that,,, that is no longer always true, and really, it was never always true.

It just sounds like an absolute and so people think it must be always true.

We all know it is not!

The phrase "Caveat Emptor" is an absolute! "buyer beware"

Randy

I am currently fighting a battle with the Defense Logistic Agency. For the last 13 years they have been buying a Ground Wire from a company in Chatsworth CA. however I am the sole source for that wire and have been for the last 25+ years. Except they didn't get the memo so they just went to one of their big outfits and bought it from them ! However I am the only one who is privy to the current configuration of the wire, because I am the one who made the requested changes that were never documented!

IN short I'm the only one who can produce the correct product.

They are paying $12,500 for that 6 foot long piece of 5/32" SS Cable with some specialized fittings swaged on the ends. My most recent price for the same wire and another 30 foot long version is $1250! My last sale was to my Local Navy Base on 2009. They came directly to me because they did get the memo!

I will resolve this in my favor, and it is a perfect example of people who have absolutely no idea what they are buying and paying thru the nose for it (with your tax dollars I might add) purchasing something without shopping around and not being educated about the product. They just buy stuff and that's what they told me ! They were curious about my price though,,, and that's why I will get the contract.

Don't be a stupid shopper. You all have plenty of time on your hands, and a cornputer to sit in front of, to shop 'til you drop,, or in my case just fall asleep.

[Hannibal]

Gentlemen, please.

200275

[Char-Gar]

Mr Buchanan...Here is something you need to pay attention to. After 55 years of reloading, I can tell a good tool from a bad tool. In my 55 years of reloading I have had 3 bad tools.

1. A C-H 30-06 full length resizing die circa 1962. The factory forgot to drill a vent hole and the air was denting the case shoulders. A quick trip to the drill press cured the problem.

2. I bought a 38/357 set of Lee dies and the expanding die had the threaded hole for the expander drilled slightly off center with the result that expanded cases were not concentric. This was about 1975 or so.

3. I bought a Lee Turret press in 1981 and it would not hold consistent COAL for match 30-6 ammo, The difference between the length of the rounds was so evident, it could see seen with the eye sitting in the loading block.

Other than those problems, I have had zero problems with loading tools of all make and functions. I would think a reloader with more than a basic level of experience can tell whether his tools is functioning well or not. You certainly don't have to be a machinist to tell a good tool from a bad too. When a press handle breaks off in your hand, you don't have to look at your Tool and Die Makers Card to know it is broken.

Frankly, I find all of this Lee knocking and Lee protecting quite juvenile. Let folks buy what they want,for whatever reason they want, without questioning their judgment, experience or general state of mind. No reloader should have to justify why he buys Lee or doesn't buy Lee.

[mdi]

Thank you for your insight Mr. Buchanan. Excellent post...

[W.R.Buchanan]

Charles: I didn't say everyone had to do or think as I say.

The main point of my post was to put forward the idea that "You don't always get what you pay for." And you should educate yourself before you spend big money on something that is no better than the bottom of the line. The Snap On analogy was not BS... It actually happened. And when he tried to return the Timing Light the Truck owner tried to say "no returns on Electronic Equipment," where upon my friend threatened to kick is butt. The issue was then resolved in his favor. We never did see that Snap On Truck in our complex again.

I do realize that more Experienced Reloaders can tell if their tools are functioning correctly.

But for a newbie to dismiss his lack of understanding and blame the equipment for his shortcomings is foolish, and naïve . And I can say with nearly 100% certainty that his problems are probably not tool related.

You pointed out two examples of bad dies over 55 years and probably countless reloading sessions turning out quality ammunition. I think you made my point for me.

No, you don't have to be a Machinist, but a machinist would probably see a problem before a Fast Food Worker.

It's good that we have these Civil Discussions here and this makes this site the best.

Randy

[lefty o]

I love when people make massive assumptions like this. There are many reasons people buy Lee. Cost is but one of them. Results on target are all that matter. Use whatever brand you want. But I find the people that buy higher end dies tend to bash Lee because they need to justify the higher costs of their purchase.

some of us bash them because if youve read lee's reloading manual. the front part with all the words, you see that richard lee was an egotistical jackwagon who pretty much badmouthed all his competition.

[Finster101]

I have watched this thread and several others like it and have yet to figure out what purpose they serve.

[mdi]

some of us bash them because if youve read lee's reloading manual. the front part with all the words, you see that richard lee was an egotistical jackwagon who pretty much badmouthed all his competition.
Yep, this thread has gone from bashing a product line to personal bashing of the company owner. How low can we go? Sounds like the anti-President crowd...

I vot for closing this thread

[dragon813gt]

some of us bash them because if youve read lee's reloading manual. the front part with all the words, you see that richard lee was an egotistical jackwagon who pretty much badmouthed all his competition.

Do you expect him to praise his competition? You don't see Ford saying go buy a Camaro because it's better than a Mustang. I've heard this complaint a lot. Im able to put aside his "salesman" side and pull out the useful information. Their manual is well written and takes you from knowing nothing to being able to reload. Yes, the book is skewed towards their tools but then I expect it to be. This is no different than Hornady's manual. There are always going to be people that you don't like. Bill Ruger seems to rank up there w/ Richard Lee in a lot of people's minds.

[Char-Gar]

Charles: I didn't say everyone had to do or think as I say.

The main point of my post was to put forward the idea that "You don't always get what you pay for." And you should educate yourself before you spend big money on something that is no better than the bottom of the line. The Snap On analogy was not BS... It actually happened. And when he tried to return the Timing Light the Truck owner tried to say "no returns on Electronic Equipment," where upon my friend threatened to kick is butt. The issue was then resolved in his favor. We never did see that Snap On Truck in our complex again.

I do realize that more Experienced Reloaders can tell if their tools are functioning correctly.

But for a newbie to dismiss his lack of understanding and blame the equipment for his shortcomings is foolish, and naïve . And I can say with nearly 100% certainty that his problems are probably not tool related.

You pointed out two examples of bad dies over 55 years and probably countless reloading sessions turning out quality ammunition. I think you made my point for me.

No, you don't have to be a Machinist, but a machinist would probably see a problem before a Fast Food Worker.

It's good that we have these Civil Discussions here and this makes this site the best.

Randy

Randy, "You get what you pay for" doesn't always mean something that cost more is better than something that cost less. "A stitch in time save nine" isn't always true and neither is "An apple a day, keeps the Dr. away or "Father knows best".

I should have thought that a reasonable bright person would know the difference between and old saying and reality. However, my experience with human nature would indicate that I am probably wrong about that.

To me the price of reloading equipment isn't an issue. I would gladly pay less for the same or better quality. My loading bench and room is festooned with old American iron and steel that I bought used on the cheap. I am still using my original press, powder measure and case trimmer from the late 50's, plus lots of other vintage stuff picked up along the way.

I have tried Lee, but could never develop a liking for it because it didn't have the substance I wanted in my tools. I do use their press mounted bullet sizing dies and collet neck sizing dies. Darn clever those collet dies.

I was raised by grandparents who raised their kids during the "great depression" I learned early on you didn't buy stuff you didn't need and didn't replace stuff unless it was broken beyond repair. Most Lee reloading tools just don't fit into the way I live and the values I hold.

Most reloading tools are broken by the user and not the manufacturer. However some makes are easier to break than others due to design and/or materials. I hold that every piece of reloading equipment should work correctly out of the box and last as long as you live.

[lefty o]

Do you expect him to praise his competition? You don't see Ford saying go buy a Camaro because it's better than a Mustang. I've heard this complaint a lot. Im able to put aside his "salesman" side and pull out the useful information. Their manual is well written and takes you from knowing nothing to being able to reload. Yes, the book is skewed towards their tools but then I expect it to be. This is no different than Hornady's manual. There are always going to be people that you don't like. Bill Ruger seems to rank up there w/ Richard Lee in a lot of people's minds.

if you make a good product, you have no need to bad mouth the competition.

[Char-Gar]

if you make a good product, you have no need to bad mouth the competition.

I never trade with <language> holes and I don't want them or others to think that <language> holism is a good business model.

[flashhole]

I have watched this thread and several others like it and have yet to figure out what purpose they serve.

Me too. I'm very selective about the stuff I buy and use. If I don't like it I simply sell it and move on to something else. Lee, like other manufactures, Lee offers things I really like and I have no problem buying and using them. I have all flavors of equipment except for Hornady (they pi$$ed me off) and Dillon - no special reason as I especially like the Dillon girls and have met several of them, all hotties to the max.

[flashhole]

Just for chits and giggles I took an inventory of the dies I have. I'm sure there are lots of guys with a lot more than me but my breakout goes like this.

Redding - 9
Lee - 18
CH - 5
Lyman - 2
RCBS - 3 (soon to be 5)
Forster - 5
Hollywood - 2

As for presses - Redding Ultramag 2, Lee Classic 3. I've owned RCBS, Forster and Redding presses that are no longer on my bench because I didn't like the ergonomics. No big deal, I just sold them and bought others I like.

And I like and use frequently all the equipment I have.

[dragon813gt]

if you make a good product, you have no need to bad mouth the competition.

I have to go back and read it again. I don't remember him saying the competition is junk. I agree that if you make a good product you don't need to bad mouth the competition. But I don't put anything by a salesman. And Richard Lee was part salesman. I will be home tomorrow evening and will make it a point to reread the manual because I don't remember it like some do.

[sawinredneck]

I have to go back and read it again. I don't remember him saying the competition is junk. I agree that if you make a good product you don't need to bad mouth the competition. But I don't put anything by a salesman. And Richard Lee was part salesman. I will be home tomorrow evening and will make it a point to reread the manual because I don't remember it like some do.
Please do! I recall him stating numerous times other presses were overbuilt, he even got digs in on his son for wanting to make the classic cast line up. "I've said it for years, if your doing it right there's very little force required for the reloading process!" He also had several words to say about people buying "benchrest style dies" almost saying, but stopping just short of calling them a total waste of money.
I have some Lee products I love and I have some that I just use. Being financially strapped I'm glad they are available and affordable to me. But I don't think Richard Lee is the type of guy I'd want to sit around and have a few beers with!

[Char-Gar]

My apologies to the posters and readers of this thread. I used some inappropriate language. I know better, but somehow it slipped by my ordinary filters. My mind must be a little foggy from all the meds I am on. I will make certain it won't happen again. In the meantime, I ask the forgiveness of any I might have offended.

[lefty o]

its all good, people get there panties in a bunch over how some letters are arranged, or over who's equipment you choose to buy and use. etc. i think the word you were looking for was bung. LOL

[6bg6ga]

As someone who is involved daily with Machine work and that technology in general I am here to tell you that virtually anything made on todays machines is superior to things made 20-30 years ago.

New machinery is not only more accurate, it is easier to program and there are more features that help you produce better parts. Finishes are better now too.

How those machines are used and who is using them is where the differences are. Also Quality Control has not changed and what is "considered acceptable" to go out the door is now the defining factor for Commercial Parts.
Not strict adherence to a drawing or standard. This level of acceptance varies with whomever is inspecting.

Sometimes you can't just reject parts that don't look exactly like the last ones. They simply cost too much to make and if they will work you have to use them. I run into this myself all the time. This has to do with each individuals idea of what the part is supposed to look like when it is done. You can have 5 different parts with exactly the same dimensions on them, but each looks completely different from the others. All of the parts are made to the print so theoretically they are good to go and would work just fine. But they look different.

In order to get consistent parts you must clearly define what is acceptable and what's not. (and its a good idea to supply a Sample Part) That way there is no misunderstanding as to what is expected.

Defining Finishing Techniques is also important.

There are two basic things that define Craftsmanship. Attention to Detail, and Personal Responsibility.

Attention to Detail is self explanatory.

Personal Responsibility is all about not letting the things you found wrong during the "attention to detail phase," go out the door.

This is where most outfits fall off. This is also usually perpetrated by employees that don't give a ship about what they are doing. They need to get plumbed up, or they need to go out the door! I have no tolerance for these people and I don't care if you are building Rockets or Flippin' Burgers, if you don't care about what you are doing, I got no use for you. Pretty vocal about this when I see it in action too.

Lots of Fast Food places suffer from this problem. The places with good supervision don't.

A friend once told me that "if there is a problem at a company, it is a management problem!" This is pretty easy to figure out and yet it happens everyday and goes uncorrected at lots of companies thruout the world.

These are places to avoid. Our government offices are places where this is normal. I try to avoid them at all cost, but sometimes I just have to endure their BS to get what I want out of them. Anybody been to a Social Security Office lately?

I rest my case.

Randy

Its nice that once again I can read another of your replies where you get to pat yourself on the back for your superior machine work. Atta boy Randy!

Now, for a look at the real world... Companies don't give a rat's butt about the quality of their products just the quantity. In Randy's world however things are different things are as they are supposed to be. When I worked in the factory I was a quality control supervisor until the plant closed and before that a machinist. My world of quality control consisted of if it doesn't affect form, fit, or function then FFFF it as dictated by the company. In other words if it comes close to the specifications it goes out the door. If it is barely good enough to work it get shipped. That is today's real world. We had strict quality specifications and procedures and we wrote up parts on a daily basis only to have the rejected parts put into service and or sold.

In Randy's world things get made on state of the art machines. In most cases in the real world things get made of machines that were born during WWII as was the case of 99.9% of the machines that were in the factory that I worked in. In todays world the true world companies most of them anyway don't purchase $500K machines unless they can make up the cost in the first 6-8 months after purchase. At the company I worked of the three new machines they purchased in a 20 yr time period two worked great and one averaged down time to the effect of 10 hours in a 24 hr period. This went on for a period of 2.5 years with the factory machine specialists being dispatched to our company to baby sit the new machine daily for a period of over a year. Now, that's quality in those new machines folks the ones that are making those high quality parts.

[6bg6ga]

Parts count

Redding 2
Lee one decapping die one 9mm taper crimp
RCBS 15
Dillon 9
Competition dies RCBS 2

[Pressman]

My apologies to the posters and readers of this thread. I used some inappropriate language. I know better, but somehow it slipped by my ordinary filters. My mind must be a little foggy from all the meds I am on. I will make certain it won't happen again. In the meantime, I ask the forgiveness of any I might have offended.

Randy, no offense was taken. We are just glad you have meds and you are still here.
Your wisdom and insite is better than most and good as the best.
Keep it coming.
Ken

[powwowell]

I'll jump in here because I can. Compared to most of you I'm a novice reloader. Just got into this hobby a few years ago. I read the ABC's of reloading and then I purchased a Lee Classic Turret kit. The Lee manual was included. There was enough real instructions in it to get me started. And ALL that load data! The kit came with 9mm dies. I later purchased .45ACP, .380ACP, .38/.357 and .45 Colt dies. Until the Lee bashers educated me, I didn't know I was making rounds with inferior equipment! And I have been using that terrible Lee Loading Manual, written by that insufferable Richard Lee. I am grateful for the Lee equipment and the Lee manual. Don't give a rat's behind about Richard Lee's character.

I have since moved up to a Hornady LnL AP press. Guess what . . . I bought more Lee Dies. I have not used any other make of dies. I have purchased Hornady lock rings. They are super nice. I've also kept my Turret press. When I have my first issue with Lee dies, I promise to reveal my problem on this forum.

To show that Lee is not perfect, I did work with a Lee Pro 1000 for several weeks. It made great ammo, but it took a lot of fiddling. I got tired of the fiddling.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I never trade with <language> holes and I don't want them or others to think that <language> holism is a good business model.

Charles: I plan on using these isms in the future! :)

Randy