.41 Swiss Rimfire

[ravelode]

Alright this is not a sale post, just a what the hell is it worth post.
I was given, amongst a whole bunch of other stuff, a bag with sixteen rounds of what I believe to be .41 Swiss Rimfire. They have .417 dia. lead grooved lubed boolits are in bottlenecked case about 39mm long with a head stamp "ER", the brass looks brand new. What the heck are they worth?

[John Boy]

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?417125-WTS-41-Swiss-Rimfire-Ammo
Normally using your browser for an Internet search will find your answer!

[ravelode]

Thanks.

[nannyhammer]

If you might are interested in selling part of them, send me a PM. I might be interested.

[Drm50]

About 25yrs ago, they were tearing out some old dock facilities on the Ohio River at Bellaire, Oh.
When dredging area out to build new docks they came up with thousands of copper cased 41
Swiss RF rounds. Nieghbor gave me a few. I polished them up and tried 2 of them one time
when a buddy had Vetterly. Flat out duds.

[Battis]

I have this box of .41 Swiss. I paid $5.00 for a single round for my collection.
Check out
http://www.rtgammo.com/
http://www.ammo-one.com/41SwissRimfireCartridges.html


I just had to pull one:

[Wheelwaits]

In the 1903 Sears catalog they sold the rifle for $4.95......

[Texas by God]

A homely old rifle that I hear shoots well. I have a cartridge too. If someone brings a Vetterli to the farm I won't have that cartridge anymore!

[Gewehr-Guy]

I just looked at the pulled bullet in the photo and it appears to be a double heeled bullet? I have one of the Sears rifles, fits the catalogs description perfectly,Bubba'ed by their finest gunsmiths!

[Digital Dan]

Had the pleasure of shooting one of those guns and a number of rounds about 20 years ago. Went bang and hit the 50 yard target w/o a problem.

[tech54K]

This is really great. Good find for you.

[Traffer]

I just looked at the pulled bullet in the photo and it appears to be a double heeled bullet? I have one of the Sears rifles, fits the catalogs description perfectly,Bubba'ed by their finest gunsmiths!

I think what looks like a double heeled bullet is actually a long rebate area with a grease groove in it. It is also a hollow base. Since I swage 22lr bullets that are very similar, I have been wondering if the hollow base really has any use anymore. The original Minie' balls had hollow base that would expand to form the pressure seal in the barrels. Because they would drop down the barrel before being fired, there was a need to have them expand at the base to form the seal. However with modern bullets (even the Vetterli) the bullets form a seal to the barrel with their bearing surfaces so that the hollow base does not cause the skirt of the bullet to expand to seal the gasses. The pressure on the outside of the rebated area are the same as the pressure on the inside of the hollow base so no obturation occurrs. I have noticed this when recovering fired 22 LR bullets. This leads me to wonder if the hollow base on these bullets is not completely unnecessary with modern guns. I don't know of any other reason a hollow base would be needed. But I am a novice at this stuff. If anyone else can explain what a hollow base does for a 22 LR, I am all ears here.
I am very interested in the Vetterli rim fires. I would love to some day draw cases for them so we could all shoot that marvelous rifle in its original form. 300 gn bullets at 1400 fps with very good accuracy? What is not to like there?

[Traffer]

I just wanted to add here that if anyone here is interested in reloading empty .41 Swiss cases, we now have access to non corrosive primer and can reload these cartridges. It would not be an easy process. The dies would have to be made etc., But if I ever end up getting a Vetterli, I will be doing this work. The problem is that the empty cases are just about as rare as the full rounds themselves.

[Traffer]

the cases are not as rare as you would believer, its a simple method involving a complex series of dies and mandrels to convert a brass plumbing component, those brass caps that are used to cap off un needed water lines, into the shape of the cartridge.

the real hard part is going to be getting the rifle, and someone with a laser scanner and a quality drafting program that can work with the scanner input. most likely Catia or the latest version of AutoCAD should be sufficient.
Once you have the scanner, the cad software, and a scanned image file of the chamber cast, you can create the basic shape, and then make all of the reloading tools. It will most likely be a dozen tools.

Thank you for that info. It is well beyond my abilities and resources now but in the future ...hey, one never knows.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Pipe caps are usually either screw compression brass or solder-on copper. The latter would thicken up as they are drawn lengthwise.

One possibility is Magtech brass 32 gauge shotgun cases, which although centrefire, have a hollow rim into which a wet primer paste could be spun by centrifugal force. They have a head about .03in. larger in diameter than the Vetterli case, but I don't think that is too much of a forming job. You could seal the primer pocket with a used primer from anything.

The 7.5x53.5mm. GP90 round for the 1889 Schmidt-Rubin rifle is an interesting one. The bullet has a heel under the paper patch which is totally unnecessary for the usual purposes. The main surface of the bullet is considerably less than neck diameter, it isn't outside lubed, and the chamber is much wider in the neck than the otherwise almost identical 7.5x55. Datig, in volume 3 of his “Cartridges for Collectors” illustrates not only the GP90, but another, misplaced among the 8mm. ones, described as “7.5x53m/m Schmidt-Rubin Model 1889”ar. I believe this one had a heelless bullet, with a bullet which carried the full GP90 bullet diameter, about .321in. including patch, all the way to its rear end.

So why introduce a heel? Possibly so that any finning of the soft bullet would take place at that step, a much less harmful place than the edge of the base. This is what we may be seeing in the Vetterli bullet illustrated here.

[jhrosier]

If you are interested in shooting 41 Swiss, look here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?21917-Vetterli-centerfire-conversion&highlight=

207054

Jack

[Traffer]

Pipe caps are usually either screw compression brass or solder-on copper. The latter would thicken up as they are drawn lengthwise.

One possibility is Magtech brass 32 gauge shotgun cases, which although centrefire, have a hollow rim into which a wet primer paste could be spun by centrifugal force. They have a head about .03in. larger in diameter than the Vetterli case, but I don't think that is too much of a forming job. You could seal the primer pocket with a used primer from anything.

The 7.5x53.5mm. GP90 round for the 1889 Schmidt-Rubin rifle is an interesting one. The bullet has a heel under the paper patch which is totally unnecessary for the usual purposes. The main surface of the bullet is considerably less than neck diameter, it isn't outside lubed, and the chamber is much wider in the neck than the otherwise almost identical 7.5x55. Datig, in volume 3 of his “Cartridges for Collectors” illustrates not only the GP90, but another, misplaced among the 8mm. ones, described as “7.5x53m/m Schmidt-Rubin Model 1889”ar. I believe this one had a heelless bullet, with a bullet which carried the full GP90 bullet diameter, about .321in. including patch, all the way to its rear end.

So why introduce a heel? Possibly so that any finning of the soft bullet would take place at that step, a much less harmful place than the edge of the base. This is what we may be seeing in the Vetterli bullet illustrated here.

I'm embarrassed to ask but what is "finning"?

[Traffer]

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?417125-WTS-41-Swiss-Rimfire-Ammo
Normally using your browser for an Internet search will find your answer!

Swiss 41 rimfire is now going for $20 per round. Thanks to cartridge collectors.

[Traffer]

I just wanted to add here that if anyone here is interested in reloading empty .41 Swiss cases, we now have access to non corrosive primer and can reload these cartridges. It would not be an easy process. The dies would have to be made etc., But if I ever end up getting a Vetterli, I will be doing this work. The problem is that the empty cases are just about as rare as the full rounds themselves.

I'm sorry, what I meant to say if anyone has the actual rim fire cases and wants to reload them I maybe able to help. Sorry for the poorly stated post.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I'm embarrassed to ask but what is "finning"?

It is a little tongue of smeared lead sticking out behind the bullet at the rear the place where the rifling lands have engraved the themselves into the bullet. That might in theory be harmless if it is exactly the same at every land, but it is unlikely that it will be. So the gas escapes irregularly as the bullet exits the muzzle, giving the bullet a little sideways kick which can impart a deviation or wobble.