Need some martini cadet help.

[barrabruce]

I have read as much as I can on these of late and hate to have to ask but....

Been playing with a new to me martini cadet in 310.
Bit of a dark bore but it seems to shoot ok. Sort of.

I made some cases out of 32-20 brass and a CBE paint coated heeled bullet was a nice tight fit in neck.
They shot OK to good considering.
A bit of a leading issue but not bad.
I flared some Bertrum 310 cases and they shot excellent considering how they were made to fit into the new brass.

So there I am all good and dandy.
All groups shot at 50 yrds
199834


Tried some fixed ammo with a wrap of paper around the heel to make them fit in the now expanded cases.
Patterns at best ...some leading.

The bullets heels are loosy goosy in the case necks now.

So off I tried breach seating with a plugged case and the CBE heeled bullets.

Better but still leading issues....some groups some splatterings.
Even with lube

So I tried some pp'ed 308241 150 gn unsized cast bullet wrapped so as to make a long nose riding bullet.
Works a treat.
199835

Not complaining at all.....but

I can't get fixed ammo to shoot.
Obviously the gun is up to it.

What have I done wrong then???

:roll:

[Drm50]

I would say those are outstanding groups for a original 310. I have fooled with 310 very little, got
them to rebarrel. The only ammo I have shot was made from 32/20 with cast boolits. The load ?
I don't know, got a cigar box full with one of the rifles. I do have a handful of original cartridges
but have never fired one. The best groups I got were about 21/2" at 50yds and lots of leading.
Never had one with nice bore.

[swamp]

I shoot soft cast boolits in mine. Maybe a little tin to help fill out. I use Bertram and formed 32-20 brass. I find that I have to run the loaded round into the sizer just a bit to remove any flare. No decapping rod.
swamp

[curator]

One of the keys to getting the .32-20/310 cadet rifles to shot accurately without leading is using the correct diameter (.319-.322) heeled boolits cast of ACWW alloy at about BHN12-15. CBE in "Straila" makes the best .310 cadet moulds for the money. Slug your rifle first. Another tip is using the "wax gas-check" or a 1/8" dental wax wad under the boolit. Shooting smokeless powder means the breech pressure is not sufficient to obturate the boolit enough to seal powder gas blow by until the slug is 2 or 3 inches down the bore. This is the source of the "leading." The wax wad fixes this problem. Some years ago, Ross Siefried wrote an extensive article on getting the .310 Cadet and the .32-20 conversions to soot accurately. Copies of this article are probably out there in cyberland.

MY go-to load for the .310 Cadet and the .32-20/310 cadet hybrid is 4.5 to 5.0 grains of unique, a 1/8 inch wax wad under the 120 grain CBR .310/322" heeled boolit lubed with Lee liquid Alox. This load shoots to the sights on the Cadet rifles out to 300 yards which is all the distance I have to shoot locally. Plenty of information out there on the web about doing this. Some of it is actually true!

[Bad Ass Wallace]

It IS an absolute myth that only a "heeled" boolit will work in a Martini Cadet. Original rifles with original BSA barrels had bores of 0.316". Later vintage, replacement barrels by Greener were supplied at 0.319" to 0.322". Ammunition made by the Colonial Cartridge of South Australia was modified when it was evident that a normal 0.317" boolit would not shoot accurately so the "heeled bullet" was made. World War 2 ammunition by the same manufacturer was a 0.316" copper jacketed boolit.

I use this 0.317" plain based bullet except fo a Greener rifle (0.322") that requires a heeled boolit.

http://www.castbulletengineering.com.au/bullet-moulds/rifle/310-cadet/317-125PB-triple-cavity

[BigEyeBob]

I use the CBE heeled bullet from thier mould and 4.3gns of Red Dot powder ,I dont size the bullets just shoot them as they drop from the mould , lubed with 50/50 alox and beeswax ,my alloy is 2lbs of lead to one pound of coww. IIRC . Im punching 11/2 groups at 90meters.

[Black Beard]

I use a 120 grain rcbs bullet on top of 3.5 grains Vhit N320. Very clean and consistent load for 950fps. Liquid allox for lubrication.
Previously I used 4 grains trail boss but it was dirtier.

2.2 grains Vhit N310 gives a nice quiet load at 750fps. This works well with softer alloys. N310 is a very fast powder- I wouldn't go this low with anything else.

Best sizing die I've found is the Nagant pistol die from Lee. It is very close to the original 310 dimensions

The Bertram cases are thicker than 32-20s and, when combined with bullets with wider heels, like RCBS ones, may mean that the tapered chamber grips the neck. If the bullets don't go in to the chamber easily, watch out for this. This may just be my gun that does this.


I made a 140 grain mould from a .323 Lee mould with the nose shortened. Then sized the nose section down to .309 in a lube sizer. Fired backwards the nose is the heel and the base is a nice wadcutter.

[barrabruce]

The bullets I got off noel are the tumble lubed bullet.
It doesn't seem to be in the list but is described somewhere or other.
It has a pointer nose and maybe 0.323" before the paint job and maybe .310 on the heel.

Better find the slug I made before and double check ..but I think 0.321-22 should be about right.

http://www.castbulletengineering.com.au/images/calibre/310-CADET/320-120H.jpg

This looks good to me.

[barrabruce]

I loaded up some more rounds.
This time with a wad and lube ahead of the bullet.
I also slapped some lube on the heel shank to help stick the bullet into the unsized cases.
See if that helps the leading issue.

I will have I think trim one case at least to correct length to get a seal and not a jam fit for the painted bullets.
After making 100 cases out of 32-20 with a hand drill and file I don't want to waste them being too short when I get a mold of my own.
:)

[Intel6]

It IS an absolute myth that only a "heeled" boolit will work in a Martini Cadet. Original rifles with original BSA barrels had bores of 0.316". Later vintage, replacement barrels by Greener were supplied at 0.319" to 0.322". Ammunition made by the Colonial Cartridge of South Australia was modified when it was evident that a normal 0.317" boolit would not shoot accurately so the "heeled bullet" was made. World War 2 ammunition by the same manufacturer was a 0.316" copper jacketed boolit.

I use this 0.317" plain based bullet except fo a Greener rifle (0.322") that requires a heeled boolit.

http://www.castbulletengineering.com.au/bullet-moulds/rifle/310-cadet/317-125PB-triple-cavity

I have been experimenting with non-heeled bullets in my original chambered Cadet.

I have a few different bullets I have that are sized to .313" that seem to work decent.

In the pic below L to R:

32-20 case with thinned rim and RCBS 120 heeled bullet tumble lube.

32-20 case with thinned rim and Lee 98 Gr. SWC lubed with Bronze 500 Hi Tek coating

32-20 case with thinned rim and Lee 90 Gr. WC lubed with Bronze 500 Hi Tek coating

.218 MB forming reject case with a NOE 129 gr. SP with gas check that is supposed to be for a 7.62x39 round. I was forming .218 Mashburn Bee cases and had 50+ get split shoulders and since there was so many I decided to keep them. I sent them along with the new Starline 32-20 cases to get the rims thinned and then trimmed them down past the splits. they work well with the longer AK bullets as they can be seated to the same length they probably would be if I had a full length case

232237


I also have another bullet for the AK round that is 150 gr that I have loaded in the short cases and it shoots well. It is as Ranch Dog design intended for the AK round and I got it to shoot out of my CZ 527 bolt gun in 7.62x39. Since it is sized to .313" I tried it in the short cases and it actually shoots decent. I am going to experiment more with them.

Here it is coated in Bronze 500 Hi Tek and sized to .313" with a gas check.

232238[QUOTE

[Black Beard]

I tried the lee AK bullet (150 or 155gr) paper patched and put in backwards but they were too long and tumbled. Anything over 0.8" long is going to have stability problems. That limits the maximum weight to about 140 grains.

I've also tried a oversize ball mould (350?) with the pouring hole drilled out to .310. After casting, resize to .323 and you get a longer bearing surface at bore diameter plus a short heeled section. I couldn't get them to work at subsonic speeds but a decent quantity of fast powder might be better. I would guess that a 60 grain bullet going at 1800fps could be interesting for varmints.

BB

[barrabruce]

Here is a pic of the bullets.
My old non vented 308241 150gn pb mould maybe different then some.
Cast a bit over 311 with ww ac. It's 0.890" long and the barrel twist programs all say it won't stabalise.
With the long seating the nose is engraved by the bore fully onto the first band.
The leade is pretty well filled with the 2x printer paper wrapped against the direction of the twist so it peels off on exit.
I lube the exposed nose but not the paper.
I think because it can go no where it helps some.
The other is the tumble lube variety of CBE heeled bullet.
I think I want more bearing surface and less nose.
200106

It may have been a fluke with the light winds and all shooting shutzen style off the bench....but sure felt good.
More testing at the range to be done.
Barra

[barrabruce]

Today seemed like a dismal disaster.
The "proper cast bullets" all leaded despite wads and lube wads and everything else I tried.

After some lead mining pp'd bullets were tipping badly except for 3 shots I fired at the start of the day.
Was getting smears of lead out and tried hard several times to clean it all out.


The bore is getting smoother and shinier from the paper patching but I fear now getting the paint and molly out may be a pain.
It looks shinier than last time out but looking down the bore sideways with a torch reveals that the grooves are still dark looking.
A couple of scratches and maybe a couple of rough spots have started to emerge.
wish I had a bore scope to see whats happening down there.

I'm thinking of cream of wheat filler may help being a straight walled case.
Worth a big of a go with it to see how things pan out.

May have to shoot clean shoot clean for a while.

I'll post a pic when I can find the camera again if anyones interested.

Bruce

[Black Beard]

What load are you using? The 310 case has a tiny capacity so pressures can go up rapidly with the heavier bullets. You might find the pressure is just too much. They are also easy to get stuck in the bore on too light loads (2" from the muzzle-that is a long way to knock I back to the breech!).

BB

[barrabruce]

The lead CBE cast bullet 120 gn
3.0 -4.2 gn bulleye.
Up to 4.2 unique
I did use a wad and dacron filler which I didn't before.
The PP 150gn
3.0 - 30.5 bulleye
3.9-4.2 unique

No great pressure signs or hard case extraction.

Going to do another chamber cast and see if it has cleaned up and changed anything.

Love to be able to take the barrel off and have a proper look and play around and even lapp it maybe.

But with the right bullet and lube It should shoot I hope.

[barrabruce]

Did a chamber cast and found to my liking a very nice chamber and with in specs of the chamber drawings
Beutifull job and even chambering and centered.

200381
My measurements at rifling commencement =0.3208" a slug pushed though the bore and measured with a wrap of coke can came at 0.322-0.323".
How ever the bore seems to be on the thicker side of 0.311 maybe 0.312.

I assume the cast lead would have shrunk a thou maybe in the chamber.
All in all perfect.

Just have to get the right mould now.
I was hoping a 0.312 heel mould and 0.323 would be available.
Just how important is the heel diameter is I don't know but I thought it would have some stabilising effect to it.
Hmm had to have beagle a mould right out of the box thou.

[Black Beard]

With N340 and a 140grn bullet, I was getting leading and signs of high pressure (hard to extract) above 4 grains. Unique is slightly faster.

With a 155 gn PP bullet and unique I did loads up to 3 gn and got velocities up to 850fps. These worked apart from being unstable (too long).

32 H&R magnum cases have the same capacity (but higher pressure) so you should find their bottom-end loads are good.

Don't worry about the bullet heels fitting the rifling. Even super-light loads should expand the base.

[barrabruce]

Thnx black beard.
Think I found my biggest problem.
I decided to just size down the rest of those black coated bullets and paper patch them to see if they will fly.
Talk about hard coating even with lube these tiny bullets were tough.
The paint came off at the larger groove size area.
Don't know what he used but there is no way they where doing anything without leaving splinters of lead and flakes of paint.

200537

I ordered some sample pack of bullets off cbe site so will give a report on how real ones go in this rifle.

I think I trimmed 80 cases too short now to the Bertrum length of 1.075" so fingers crossed.

Don't think I can shoot for a few weeks thou.
Cheers
Bruce

[barrabruce]

The club had a small centre fire cat shoot going and I thought I'd have a go with the martini.
Loaded up the pp'd bullets with 3.5 grn bulleye a darcon wad a card then bullet.
Lubed the bullets lightly with lube and seated.
I found I could just squish them down to the heels end on the rounds so all seamed good.


Off the bench over a towel a "clean" barrel.
They seemed to shoot ok.
2nd shot is after I moved the sights from first bullets impact.
200790
Not bad I thought considering I could feel my heart pounding through the stock and couldn't control it.
I had been given a hard time about not attending a course which I wanted to do yesterday when I had asked about what it was all about.

I dunno...... I had a few more shots offhand and apart from 2 wild filers by me I think it will shoot just fine.
200791

Obviously needs a little work but I couldn't do any better.

I had got upset because my father had died and I thought it wouldn't effect me as much as it did (don't worry no love lost).
But they persisted and I got pissed off and blurted it out.


Anyway heres the rub.

I was lubing up the pp'd bullet which I like to do just before I shoot them as they can get a bit soggy if you leave them lying around for many days and discovered I was getting powder contaminating my lube tin.:shock:

One loaded with out a primer and 4 more with spent primers.
I only had enough just enough clear thinking after a while to figure out I shouldn't shoot any more.
I came home and took the cases apart and found no powder mix up or wrong doing but a couple with out a wad and filler like the rest.
So no harm done.

I survived but I think the arseholes have finally ground me down.



But please don't do any reloading if you ever get phased by something.
Even if you think you aren't really phased.
Yeah I consider my self lucky.
Cheers and thanks
Bruce

[Black Beard]

Sorry to hear that you lost your father.

Your grouping is looking pretty good. BSA cadets can be really accurate.

Tumble lubing with LLA works really well for me. It might be better than the filler and lubed wad combination.

I'd strongly suggest you get a Lee Nagant revolver die set. The sizing die works great and the tension in the neck might improve consistency.

BB

[barrabruce]

Yes Iv'e been thinking of alox
The ones I painted didn't give me grief , but the 50/50 bw/vas did.

Apart from the gut turning smell of the stuff; alox has worked for me in the past before.
I think it must not go anywhere and form a gooey gasket down the bore or something.

My sample pack of CBE bullets were marginal at best with the loads that were around the others that shot good.
May have been the lube but the only outside bearing in my groove is the thin drive band. that and the nose a bit small I think I would have trouble getting them to shoot in a non sized case.
I would either have to hone /ream out the heel to suit my cases or make a stepped breach seating tool to align the bullet up in the starting blocks properly.
Easy way is to get a set of dies and work the brass.
The RCBS mould looks good to me if it casts big enough.
Nei has one too but have no specs on that and haven't a reply from them yet.
Accurate moulds have a couple that might just be great with a bit of tweeking.
But they all would be pricey compared to a homegrown ozy one.
Hmmm

[Black Beard]

The rcbs mould I got 15 years ago drops bullets at .323-324 on the nose and .312-.313 on the shank. It is great apart from with Bertram brass, which is too thick (my chamber might be slightly short). I turn Starline 32-20 cases down, shorten them and resize to fit the chamber. These are 6 thou less wall thickness than Bertram brass so work well with the .312 shank.

310 cadet is like oversize .22lr when it works well. Really easy to shoot.

[barrabruce]

Thnx for that Black beard.
I got hold of some hawkesbury 310 cadet commercial cast bullets of a bloke but they turned out to be the 316 diameter size and not the healed variety.
He got them for scrap lead price and I swapped him for some.
Sized them down and paper patched some to try.
The big game shoot is on this week-end and I tried 3 different powders in the loads that looked the best promise.
Ap 50n 4.0 gns with a dacron filler and a 60 thou hard card wad on top.
The starline re-mastered cases allow me to finger seat the base edge of the pp'd bullet into the mouth if I flare them with a 8mm mauser round's projectile for a fixed load. This also seals the chamber and stops blowby around the case neck.
201666
Only had ten rounds of each load and this is the best I can do.
2x 5 shot groups with clean bore.
4x touching at 50 and the last a flyer.
Shoots to the sights pretty well and apart from having difficulty seeing the 3" square sticky label at 100yrds at all I think they have done extremely well.
I'll see if I can put the hurt on a couple of shooters in the rook and rabbit event and the pot rifle.
Ha :)
Looks like I'll have chase up the rcbs mould for an easy cast lube shoot fix.
PPing just the end bit of these bullets aren't real fun and quick for me....but it does work and the barrel is shining up nicely.
A couple of hundred more and this thing should be like a mirror.

[Black Beard]

I am pretty sure that there is a Australian supplier with proper 310 cadet dies. They refused to export to UK but you would have more luck. Try google.
If you have a 309/311 lube-sizer and can make a cup to go over the grooved section of a bullet then you can use the sizer to put a heel on to the neck section of a bullet. Fire them backwards. Work well with shortened 8mm bullets.

[BigEyeBob]

I am pretty sure that there is a Australian supplier with proper 310 cadet dies. They refused to export to UK but you would have more luck. Try google.
If you have a 309/311 lube-sizer and can make a cup to go over the grooved section of a bullet then you can use the sizer to put a heel on to the neck section of a bullet. Fire them backwards. Work well with shortened 8mm bullets.

that would be Simplex , they manufacture and sell reloading dies and equipment from thier website . I have three sets of thier dies and find them excellent quality .
My 310 dies are the Lee ones ,they work ok.

[Bigslug]

Barrabruce,

My experience is with a BSA that was reamed out to .32-20, but as the Cadet bore is larger than the .314" a .32-20 calls for, it's kind of a bastard hybrid.

You're checking your bore dimensions, which is the most solid thing you can do. I wouldn't trust anyone's statement on what your bore SHOULD be. Mine's about .3185" as I recall, and the custom mold Veral Smith cut from my pound cast drops at .3205". The end result groups 2-3" at 100 yards and requires only a .30 caliber bore snake to clean.

Since you're running the original chamber spec'd out for heeled bullets, I would be looking at Accurate Molds, and provided Tom with the inside diameter of a fired case, as well as your throat and bore dimensions. He could put tumble lube grooves on the nose section easily enough.

[barrabruce]

Yep thanks fellas.
I chopped off the breach end of another 310 and use that for forming and sizing my cases now.
I was using a tapered hole in a something or other that tapered the 32-20 shoulder down to fit the 310's chamber to fire form cases for a start.
I just need a lathe and plenty of time and I'm sure I could make the chamber end a bush to fit into it for a neck sizer and use it as a seater too.
So I don't need or even want dies.
( one of these days)
Well I missed the rook and rabbit event by turning up late this morning.

I did place in the first 20 in the pot rifle thou.
(15 shooters) :)
I was competing against 308's, 243's 22-250's and such like mostly with half a Hubble on them.
When I moved the target from 100 mtres to 50 I thought I had no hope looking at the mess I made of shooting it.

But the results were posted and I actually got 3rd.

Not bad for a hundred year of rifle shooting dubious bullets wrapped in cheap paper.
Haaa haa haa I hope that they are made aware of what out shot them just to rub it in.:happy dance:

Imagine what could be done with something that works and shot by some-one who could really shoot.
WOW
Just gotta love it.
Either that or they all must be really bad shots.

[Traffer]

One of the keys to getting the .32-20/310 cadet rifles to shot accurately without leading is using the correct diameter (.319-.322) heeled boolits cast of ACWW alloy at about BHN12-15. CBE in "Straila" makes the best .310 cadet moulds for the money. Slug your rifle first. Another tip is using the "wax gas-check" or a 1/8" dental wax wad under the boolit. Shooting smokeless powder means the breech pressure is not sufficient to obturate the boolit enough to seal powder gas blow by until the slug is 2 or 3 inches down the bore. This is the source of the "leading." The wax wad fixes this problem. Some years ago, Ross Siefried wrote an extensive article on getting the .310 Cadet and the .32-20 conversions to soot accurately. Copies of this article are probably out there in cyberland.

MY go-to load for the .310 Cadet and the .32-20/310 cadet hybrid is 4.5 to 5.0 grains of unique, a 1/8 inch wax wad under the 120 grain CBR .310/322" heeled boolit lubed with Lee liquid Alox. This load shoots to the sights on the Cadet rifles out to 300 yards which is all the distance I have to shoot locally. Plenty of information out there on the web about doing this. Some of it is actually true!

I hesitate to post this because I am a rank amateur and have no experience at all with a Martini Cadet. However, this may be of some use to those who load this round with smokeless powder: I have been researching and experimenting with reloading 22lr. As you know it was designed for black powder. When the time came for it to be loaded with smokeless powder the ammunition makers had to solve the problem of having the bullet obturate with the different burn characteristics of smokeless powder. So for that aspect, the Martini Cadet and 22 rim fire have the same dilemma. In his book "Ammunition Making" George Frost dedicates a chapter to the the history of developing 22lr match ammo for smokeless powder in the years from approximately 1935 to 1954. One of the key elements of loading this round that differed from the old black powder ammunition was the crimp. Frost describes the crimping method and the parameters for match grade 22lr. Previously black powder loads were only crimped to hold the bullet in the case. With 22lr the crimp is important enough for them to set the parameters at "Bullet Pull" minimum and maximum. The average being between 45 and 50 lbs. In my experience loading 22lr, a deep, tight crimp showed itself to be the key to velocity and consistency. The difference between deep tight crimp and very little crimp with the powder I use is dramatic. No crimp=misfires, click bangs, low velocity and poor accuracy. Tight Crimp = no click bang, no misfire and velocities high and consistent.
With these things in mind I would think that the same logic would apply to the Martini Cadet cartridge. You may find that a tight deep crimp will solve the problems you describe. At least it's worth trying.

[Wheelwaits]

Does anyone sell the CBE molds in this country ?? No luck with the RCBS version. I have two Cadets a full military and one someone started "sporterizing". I'm using Bertram brass and I've tried #2 alloy -wheel weights and pure lead . Bores are good but "patterns "not groups.....

[barrabruce]

I'd do a Chamber cast to see what you have in each rifle.
Before I'd go out and buy another bullet mold.

They do ship to the states and your $ is so much more than ours as well as our postage is cheaper.

Just cost me 1/2 the value of the rcbs mould to get one sent over here and it still will workout cheaper than buying it here from a store.

CBE does have a good selection thou and I would buy one if it was going to fit my gun with out alteration from the start.
I have a drawing of a mould I have drawn up for say accurate moulds to make for me but will wait and see if the rcbs mould does the goods or not.
I'm pretty sure it will.
Its a short version of a 308403 pope style bullet.
Just finger set into fired brass.


I got some bertrum brass but it is too short for some of the bullets I've used in my rifle.
I have some starline brass 32-20 which is thin as, but can make it as long as I need too.
Rp and Win 32-20 brass is harder to get where I am and heaps more expensive. And haven't played with any examples to tell what they are like.

In fact I haven't seen any for a few years for sale when I'm out rummaging through gun shops.

[Wheelwaits]

I was using the bullets as dropped from the RCBS mold.. Spray lubed with Hornady lube. Tried some #2 alloy.then straight wheel weights (95% lead , 5% antimony) and pure lead. Tried various powders...Shots were all over the place...I'll try a chamber cast if I can find my Cerrosafe..... Next step might be rebarreling. 357.... or a 22 of some sort 218 bee ???

[Wheelwaits]

Can any of you "Down under" guys tell me what the "AJC" stamp on this one might mean ??? This is the "sporterized" one of mine..

http://http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/blknwhte1/IMG_0277_zps15d7226a.jpg

[BigEyeBob]

Can any of you "Down under" guys tell me what the "AJC" stamp on this one might mean ??? This is the "sporterized" one of mine..

http://http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/blknwhte1/IMG_0277_zps15d7226a.jpg

No idea what AJC represents .You need to slug the bore and do a chamber cast to determine what projectile size you need . The cadet barrel dimensions were all over the paddock . I find a good consistant crimp is also beneficial . Im using bertram brass and 4.3gns of redot under a 125gn CBE heeled projectile.Im getting 1 1/2 " groups at 90 meters.The 310 is fun to shoot ,like a 22lr on steroids , personally I wouldnt rebarrel I until I was sure with out a doubt that no matter what you have tried the thing wont shoot . Some extra effort may pay off.

[Bill Torzsok]

This is only a guess, "Australian Junior Cadets", the reason I am saying that is because here in Australia the rifle is commonly known as a Martini Cadet..

[Otley]

Hi
I’m new here, but I’ve had an affection for the .310 Cadet since I bought my first one back in 2000, so I thought I’d share my experiences with it. I haven’t posted this to hijack your thread, barrabruce - I hope something in it might help you sort out your .310.

If I come across a BSA Model 4b Cadet for sale here in the UK, I tend to go for it whatever its condition. I kind of feel that it’s my duty to resurrect them and pass them on in reasonable condition for posterity! Some have bad bores and chambers whose rim recesses have been deepened to take .32-20 cases. For the really rough bores, I take the barrel off and get a .308 bronze brush, wrap it with 0000 grade steel wool, coat it with a mixture of oil and fine grade valve grinding paste and push it back and forth from the breech end. I give it about fifty strokes, then wrap the brush with kitchen roll coated with Solvol Autosol chrome cleaner and keep going. That generally gets a shiny bore with no tight or rough spots felt when passing a clean patch through.

Bringing a .32-20 chamber back to a .045” deep Cadet rim recess involves welding and lathe work. I make a threaded collar that screws onto the barrel thread. Then turn a short aluminium plug that just enters the chamber and push the barrel onto the plug. Then skim my collar so that its OD is true with the chamber. Then, take a deep breath and MIG weld the rim recess to obliterate it. Back in the lathe, muzzle in the chuck and my breech collar running in a fixed steady to recut the chamber. A bit of milling with a slitting saw brings back the extractor slot.

All the BSA Cadets I’ve seen have .321-ish groove diameter barrels and I use the RCBS heeled mould. I have a .321 lubrisizer die and have machined its plug to take the bullet nose ogive. I then run the bullets through nose-down to fill the grease groove. I use some UK NDFS dies that I bought before they went out of business, but also recently mortgaged the house to buy some RCBS custom dies in case the NDFS ones ever wear out. But as others have reported, once you’ve fired some rounds, all you need do is run the cases through something like a .223 sizing die to punch the primers out and re-prime, powder charge and just seat the RCBS bullets into the case by hand. I use my dies to size, bell and seat because the round produced is more robust.

I use 6 grains of Blue Dot to get around 1200fps, but 8.5 gives 1650fps if I want some .310 Stingers. 4.5 grains of Unique or 4 of Bullseye also work well for me.
For bullet lead, I’ll buy a box of 500 240 grain commercially cast .44 Magnum bullets and magically turn them into 1000 120 grain Cadet bullets. They are about 16HBN and recovered bullets show rifling engraving on the heel, so I’m happy that they are obturating and they don’t lead.

My cases are .32-20 with the rims thinned on a lathe and shortened to 1.116”, which is a bit longer than a factory .310 case.

[barrabruce]

Thnx Otley for your insight.
I have tried in vain to get the other barrels I got to clean up somewhat at all.
Keep going if you like.
I'd like to hear what you limies do to make these shoot as I have heard great things.
Around here they have mostly given up on it is all too much hassle if they aren't spoon fed something that fits their guns straight up sight unseen.
Ha


I did try to get the front sight off one and I think that they must have used and oxy and silver solder to put it on because I could not move it at all.
I may have to cut it out and file out the other if I want to replace the one I got.

I want to keep this one "as is" and not do anything to it.
Well O.K. I lightened the trigger spring a polished the firing pin and channel and took a few burrs off here and there and bedded the forearm with some silicone. Sealed the butt stock and refitted it and cleaned up the crown.
Even took apart and cleaned the rear sight to free it up some.

It may take another month to get my mould in as I ordered it through Optics Planet in the Usa.
Fingers crossed I will get it eventually.

[Otley]

The front sight and stock lug are certainly brazed in to the barrel. I don't know if they had vacuum brazing furnaces in 1910 to prevent oxidation of the bore or I've heard that if you place a close fitting wooden dowel in the bore, you can then heat the barrel to red and the wood will char and prevent the bore oxidising, but they did it somehow.

I think the .310 has got to be one of the most accurate ways to shoot cast bullets - even with bad bores they will outshoot any .44 or .357 carbine shooting cast bullets at 50 metres. (Is that contentious?). Bullets must be around .321" diameter though. I look at it as a four times scaled up .22LR using a similar heeled, outside lubricated bullet arrangement.

[barrabruce]

I think the .310 has got to be one of the most accurate ways to shoot cast bullets - even with bad bores they will outshoot any .44 or .357 carbine shooting cast bullets at 50 metres. (Is that contentious?). Bullets must be around .321" diameter though. I look at it as a four times scaled up .22LR using a similar heeled, outside lubricated bullet arrangement.

Probably is a bit contentious...but using factory issue chambers you are probably right.
The gentle leade with a good fitting/sealing bullet at the case mouth has I think has a lot to do with it shooting well.

Jury is out on the 357 mag...but I have seen some stonka groups.
But it was not loaded for blat-o- matic functioning and in a purpose built rifle.

[enfield]

I just had my 310 NSW cadet to the range using the new NOE 130 Gr .321 ( drops .3225 ) . at 50y with original barrel mounted sights it would shoot an honest 1". I had only made 7 cases from 32-20 to try ( basicley cut them off at the shoulder ) so I had to reload at the range with a scoop and some RED DOT and the bullets pushed so nicely into the fired & reprimed case. it was like it was meant to be.

[barrabruce]

Good on you Enfield.
Got a picture?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

that would be Simplex , they manufacture and sell reloading dies and equipment from thier website . I have three sets of thier dies and find them excellent quality .
My 310 dies are the Lee ones ,they work ok.

Simplex do list .310 Cadet dies, and although I didn't want to buy anything at the moment, I tried out their website as far as finding a menu of countries, and saw nothing about not exporting.

http://www.simplexreloading.com/

A while back an Australian firm I dealt with, Ammodump, discontinued Simplex moulds on the basis of irregularity of supply. That may have been connected with the death of the founder, just as the American NEI, whose products I liked very much, suffered after the death of Walt Melander. Both were a long time ago, and there is every chance that they have recovered. My only Simplex dies, for the 5.6x50R and purchased around the time aforementioned, are certainly extremely satisfactory.

[enfield]

I left the target at the range, I will take a few pic's of the rifle , boolit and case soon and post em.

[enfield]

Here is a few pic's of the 310, it was advertised as converted to 32-20 but there's no way it could have been, it will only chamber the short cases 1.020 or so. The 321 NOE ( drops .3225 ) will just nicely push in the case and I use the old Winchester reloader to deprime & prime case and add some RED DOT. Gotta make up a few more cases, I stopped after 7 to see if they would work. 202964202965202966

[BigEyeBob]

Simplex do list .310 Cadet dies, and although I didn't want to buy anything at the moment, I tried out their website as far as finding a menu of countries, and saw nothing about not exporting.

http://www.simplexreloading.com/

A while back an Australian firm I dealt with, Ammodump, discontinued Simplex moulds on the basis of irregularity of supply. That may have been connected with the death of the founder, just as the American NEI, whose products I liked very much, suffered after the death of Walt Melander. Both were a long time ago, and there is every chance that they have recovered. My only Simplex dies, for the 5.6x50R and purchased around the time aforementioned, are certainly extremely satisfactory.

Simplex is back in business the daughter is now running the business .

[barrabruce]

Well the latest developments
Got the rcbs mould and it casts 323-324 and 312 on the heel straight up first run.
203747
Well forgot the wads I had been using but good results I think.
Couldn't shoot that well today for some reason.
May need a different target to shoot at or at least try to shoot the middle next time instead of the bottom.
My fuzzy regulated eye balls think let me down a bit.
Most were shot fireforming cases and I shot a couple of extras here and there if one went astray.
Both alox and dip lubed worked well with no leading till I used 4 gns unique.
Cleaning revealed specs of lead.
203748
4 grns ap50 strung vertically and horizontally.The previous paper patchedfixed load works well for about 5 and then needs a patch out thou.
Dropped it back a tenth grain or so and "walla" good load. Show sings of minor primer flow and rubbing on extraction but not bad.
203749
Bulleye and Unique show promise too.
Of course in reply to Enfield.
203750
My ever alert faithfull companion Sally.
Ohh I bored her to sleep too.
Ha.
Apart from a bit of tweeking and maybe a light honing out to a slightly larger diameters later on I think I'm done.
I may knurl the heel and see how I can get better fit into the fired cases but we will see.

Bruce
:)

[sav300]

Lee make a 310 cadet reloading die set.

[barrabruce]

Still getting some funky stuff in the first couple of inches of the bore and some loads leading.
Maybe small.
I'll have to rub some bullets between a file and see if it a bit fatter helps.
My alox coated ones worked alot worse than the lubed ones which is strange as they aren't traveling that fast.

A few photos.
204192
You could say about average. A lot of changing strong wind and then calm today so you could say it sort of wanting to group.

204193
Shot this lot as fixed ammo mild bullseye load and then breachseated some more rounds into it.
Clustered quite nicely and filled in the group nearer the corner of the sticker.
Cleaned barrel and it went to pieces on me after that.:?

204194
Trying to be artistic again.
The group is actually 9 as I took one apart to verify the load.
It did however give me lead streaks when I cleaned the barrel after the grouping.:groner:
If I ever sort this thing thing out I'll post something.
I have no ideas anymore except to make the groove bullet area larger and see if that helps.
If it does then a hone out of the mould is in order.
Any thoughts?
And there I was thinking I was going to do something.
Ha!
Thanks for reading all this
Barra
PS I put a glob of silver solder on the front sight and filed it to make it apear as it should have been all them years ago.
Hopefully I'll be able to get a better aim with a finer sharp /\ front sight.

[Otley]

One of my Cadets had a damaged front sight so I added weld and reshaped it. I took measurements from a good sight and produced this drawing to shape the new one to:

204203

[Southern Son]

Have you tried 2205?

I was using a CBE mould, Alox lube and about 10 grains of 2205 (cannot remember the load exactly, I have had a break from shooting rifles). Leading had never been a problem. Accuracy could have been improved on, if I had kept trying.

[barrabruce]

Thanks for the sight measurements.
I built it up and its a bit pointy at he moment but at least I can adjust it to centre now.
I figured out if I move the rear sight 0.0054" = 1MOA.
I left my verniers at home but will take them next time.
Of the 3 x rear sights I have they are all different in the marks between 50-600 yrds as into height.
jumping over the place and doesn't correspond to any bullet drop. IE: between 200 and 250 yrds it could be only 9moa but next 250-300 ydrs 15 moa and then drops back again to 6 moa.
Definitely something askew.
Maybe people filed one down till it hit the target for a load they were working on. Who knows.

I have made a chart that corresponds to how much moa the marks represent and how many thousanths of inches I need to move it up or down.
See how good I am at trig after 30yrs absence.
No leading last time out and I think I need to hone the mould out a little bigger on the rear band to engage the throat. The nose fits nice and secure.
I have nearly worked out one load and need to play with wads and lube till I get it to shoot.
I don't want to use dacron on this case.
All are shot unsized and tumble or dipped lubed.
205672

I did try the 9 gn 2205 load and it left a lot of unburnt powder down the bore.
Not impressed with the grouping either.
Bullseye and adi ap50n seem to be the winners so far.
2.8 gns bullseye seems to be a very mild load but shoots well at 50 yrds if I can tweek it some more.
All in all getting better.
now wheres that beagle thread.
Hmmm

[Wheelwaits]

Anyone tried 2400 ?? I have a 5 lb drum I need to use up. I don't shoot my 44 mag much any more ..

[barrabruce]

9.5 gns 2400 supposed to give 1370fps with 120 grns
206047

[barrabruce]

232207
Modified a 30-30 lee loader I got cheap for parts today.
I can size cases down now to seat a bullet.

Be better if I could make the mould a thou or two bigger on the base band and the heal 4 thou bigger.
They would be a snug fit in the fired brass and fit the throat perfectly..

The wheels of industry are turning slow around here.
I may even get to test them out soon.

Sure are opening a can of worms these 310’s when they arn’t Just std anything much.
Ha[smilie=s:

Ohh I got 3rd again in the rook and rabbit event this year.
May have to get serious if I wanna beat the other 2 blokes.
They have it well sorted out in the rifle department.