.38spl/2400 load data needed

[kooz]

I would like to work up some maximum 38spl loads using the LEE 158gr Flat Point and 2400 powder for use in a .357 revolver. Was wondering if any of you have been loading this bullet/powder combination in the 38spl. Thanks

[wiljen]

That combination has been used for years in heavy 38 loads. I'd start by looking for data for the 38/44 Outdoorsman. If memory serves 12-13.5gr of 2400 behind a 158 was Elmer's load, but do the research as I may be wrong.

[ra_balke]

If you have 2400 laying around, and you want to try it, the 13.5 gr load is the classic, but do remember these are 38 loads, which are in truth , HOT 357 loads in 38 special cases.

You might want to go with bullet 358156, it has two crimp groves, and the deepest grouve is for the hot 357 loads in 38 cases. That way you will not mistake these hot loads and drop them into a 38 special.

I have fired a ton of the old 13.5 gr Skeeter Skelton load, and it is ok, but in truth, I would rather use 5 gr of Unique. That gives about 900 fps, where the Skelton load gives about 1050 from my testing.

[kooz]

I have read some articals on the 38/44 loads , and that is what I'm after but was wondering if the crimp groove placement on the LEE bullet is comparible to the bullets that were used for the 38/44 loads. Would one of you guys happen to have a 358156 bullet that you could measure from the base to the crimp grove and post the measurement ? thanks

[dgslyr]

My old copy of lyman #45 says 11 grs. of 2400 as a max load in 38 spl cases with a 158 gr cast 358311 for 1010 fps out of a 6 inch S&W model 14.I have used this load with other 158 cast boolits in my 586,a dan wesson,a security six,my dads colt trooper,a model 10 S&W that I used have and the model 66 S&W I have now.I'm going to use the lee 158 RNF with that load in 38 cases for field pistol silhouettes week after next.I would like to see those old loads for those 38/44 S&W's.

[HeavyMetal]

I have a single cavity 358156. Overal boolit length is.682. From the base to center of the first crimp groove is: .285 From base to center of second crimp groove is: .375

Hope this helps out.

[kooz]

I have a single cavity 358156. Overal boolit length is.682. From the base to center of the first crimp groove is: .285 From base to center of second crimp groove is: .375

Hope this helps out.

thank you, thats what I needed.

[crowbeaner]

If memory serves, Skeeter Skelton used the 358156 HP bullet over 13.5 of 2400, not the solid point. I've shot thousands of them myself, and I prefer the 11.0 grain load instead. My older M19 shot them into 1 hole groups at 25 yards. I've shot the 11.0 with Lyman 358477, RCBS 38-150-KT, Lyman 357446, and 358156 HP. The 5.0 of Unique is great in smaller guns, but for the Airweights I use 4.5 grains. CB.

[kooz]

If memory serves, Skeeter Skelton used the 358156 HP bullet over 13.5 of 2400, not the solid point. I've shot thousands of them myself, and I prefer the 11.0 grain load instead. My older M19 shot them into 1 hole groups at 25 yards. I've shot the 11.0 with Lyman 358477, RCBS 38-150-KT, Lyman 357446, and 358156 HP. The 5.0 of Unique is great in smaller guns, but for the Airweights I use 4.5 grains. CB.

Would it be possible to get some measurements from the base to the crimp groove on some of these bullets that you have used ? Thanks

[jimkim]

This is from Handloader Issue #18.
It was worked up using a pressure Barrel.
It was described as 38 special super vel load.
158 lead
Alliant 2400
10.5gr
1,090 fps
Remarks: energy: 414; psi: 19,300
It isnt near as hot as the old Keith load. I also have the data from Handloader #243. They are a lot hotter than the 10.5gr load listed above. If you would like them PM me and I will send you a copy. They are hot!!!!

"A Smith & Wesson .38-44 Outdoorsman with a 6 1/2-inch barrel was used to test loads."
Handloader Issue #243

[MakeMineA10mm]

I've loaded 10.5grs but I only shot them in my 357s. It's not the kind of load that fits well with an airweight or chief's special.

They are a great medium-load for a 357: stronger than 38s, but lighter than 357s. Nice way to shoot something stouter than the weak 38s, but still use the cheap, easily-avail. brass.

[Bret4207]

Keep in mind also Skeeters load was using 38 brass in a 357 gun. He got that load from the older Ideal/Lyman books I imagine. I 12-13 gr in light weight guns, but wouldn't today. 4-5 gr Unique works well in the 38 guns, heavier loads I'd save for the 357.

[686]

it would be much safer to use 357 mag cases than over loading 38 spl. cases

[fecmech]

There is one problem that I found when using the 10.5/2400/Keith load in .38 special. The powder leaves a lot of tiny granuals behind that are not burned. If you remove cases from a double action revolver, barrel down, these granuals get under the extractor star and tie up the gun. Other than that IMO it is good for max effort loads in the .38 spl with standard and slightly heavier bullets.

[Willbird]

Also remember that HERCULES 2400 is not exactly the same as ALLIANT 2400, The Alliant powders seem to for the most part take less powder to achieve a given pressure/velocity than the Hercules powders. Supposedly grain size is more uniform in the Alliant powders.

Bill

[oldroger]

++ to what willbird said, Handloader has been saying for some time that the "new" 2400 is hotter than the old. As much as 10% hotter. Using the Keith loads of 2400 in .357 or .44spl could lead to a blow-up.

[Mack Heath]

Regarding the claims that the new Alliant 2400 is faster than the old Hercules 2400, below are some data I collected two years ago. The new Alliant 2400 was purchased around 2003. The old Hercules 2400 dates back to the early 1990s. The actual dates are recorded on the cans, but I don't feel like running down to the basement.

The load was a moderately heavy .44 special load of 17.5 grains. The bullet was the RCBS 250 KT. I fired the load 3 times: twice with air cooled bullets and once with heat treated bullets. The gun was a 4" Mountain Revolver.

The new 2400 clocked 987 fps with an SD of 14 fps.
The old 2400 clocked 1008 fps with an SD of 30 fps.

With the HT bullet:

The old 2400 clocked 986 fps with an SD of 30 fps.

From my perspective, the difference is inconsequential. With this medium pressure load (around 25 ksi as reported in Handloader) the burning rates would appear to be identical based on the velocities obtained.

FWIW

[Mack Heath]

Allow me to give you another data point for 2400.

From my old Lyman Pistol & Revolver manual from 1978, there is a load for the .357 with the 357429 bullet in .357 cases. When crimped over the front edge of the front driving band the OAL Lyman got is 1.553". When loaded into .38 special cases and crimped into the crimp groove, the OAL I get is 1.545. The difference in length is not really significant.

The gun used was a 4" GP-100 which is as close to a pressure gun as one will find if Lyman's data are to be believed. If Lyman says they got XXX fps, then that is what I get with this gun. This is to the point that I almost don't need to chrono them any more.

Using 173 grain 357429 bullets seated into .38 special cases and crimped in the crimp groove, a 13.5 grain load of new 2400 gave me 1241 fps. Lyman got 1242 fps in their vented 4" pressure gun using the old 2400. And this is a high pressure load in the 40K CUP area.

If there is a difference in the burning rates of the two powders, I am not seeing it.

Again FWIW.

[fecmech]

I can't find the data but back about 10 years ago I chrono'd some 1970's 2400 against the current 2400 of the time and got no meaningful difference between the 2 powders in both the .357 and .44 mag. To me it does not make any sense for a company to increase the speed of a powder that's been around that long. With all the load data that's out there you would be asking for trouble. If anything were to be changed I would think they would go slower not faster.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Alliant seems to have carried on the legacy of Hercules in trying to stick pretty tightly to the specs on their cannister-grade powders. This is one of the reasons I really like Alliant, even though they're not marketing as heavily as the other powder companies... That being said, there are always little lot-to-lot variations.

[35remington]

In contrast, using a load promoted as safe with 22.0/2400 and a 240 grain jacketed bullet in .44 Magnum (Elmer's load was with a 250 grain cast bullet) gives very, very hard extraction in a well chambered Smith 629 and has too much velocity. This load, BTW, was considered proper back then with the 240 jacketed as well. Backing off a couple of grains gives velocities in line with what yesteryear said they should be with a heavier charge.

Point is, check for yourself, and don't assume what was written as safe with 2400 a generation ago is true today.

It may not be, or it may be, but work up from below and get out that chronograph.

[Harry O]

One thing that has not been said in this thread is "WHAT" .357 Magnum revolver this load is being used in. Is it a J-frame, K-frame, L-frame, or N-frame. I know for a fact that Elmer Keith wrote about his 13.5gr 2400 load with a 158gr hard-cast bullet, he was using an N-frame revolver. I strongly suspect that when Skeeter Skelton wrote about the same 13.5gr load, he was probably using N-frames, since L-frames did not exist except for the last few years of his life.

I strongly doubt that that load would damage a J-frame, but it would probably shoot it loose in short time. I have read many times about K-frames shooting loose if used exclusively with heavy .357 Magnum loads. The L-frame was supposed to correct that problem. Whether or not it did, I have not read anything about.

Start with the revolver being used, then figure out the load.

[crowbeaner]

kooz; I think I have some of the old Skeeter loads left, but I'll have to look for them. If and when I find them among the missing, I'll measure the cartridge face to groove and post it. Sorry it took so long to reply but I didn't run through all the other posts until today. IIRC the bullet in those cartridges is either the 358156 or the RCBS 38-162-SWC. I'll check the load slip.

[NoDakJak]

I used the 11 grains of 358429 for more than thirty years with no apparent ill effects in "J", "K", and "N" frame S&W's. I probably stayed out of trouble with the Chief Specials because most of the powder was burnt outside the two inch barrel. The eight foot ball of flame after dark was truly awesome. That load produced 1042 fps from my six inch "Colt 357".
That load is one of the most accurate that I have ever seen. Amazing out of the Chiefs Special although the recoil is fugged in it.
I am not as adventuresome now and have dropped the load to 10 grains out of "K" frames and four grains of Unique in the "J"frames. Neil

[kooz]

kooz; I think I have some of the old Skeeter loads left, but I'll have to look for them. If and when I find them among the missing, I'll measure the cartridge face to groove and post it. Sorry it took so long to reply but I didn't run through all the other posts until today. IIRC the bullet in those cartridges is either the 358156 or the RCBS 38-162-SWC. I'll check the load slip.

Thanks

[kooz]

[QUOTE=Harry O;374005]One thing that has not been said in this thread is "WHAT" .357 Magnum revolver this load is being used in.

I will be shooting these loads out of an OM Blackhawk and will probably run some thru my .357 SP101.

[kooz]

Got out to the range this morning and tried a couple loads with the LEE 158gr flat point and Winchester .38 cases.

10.5 gr/2400 was not very accurate(hand size groups @ 50ft)

11.1gr/2400 groups tightened to 1"

12gr/2400 groups still tight snappy recoil for a 38

13gr/2400 groups still tight and recoil same as factory .357 loads

[Larry Gibson]

Other than typical lot to lot variation I've not seen any difference between the old Hercules 2400 and the newer Alliant. Alliant says they have not changed the formula. I believe them. My chronograph results over the last 30 years show the new 2400 is consistant to the old 2400. While I have not pressure tested 2400 in a .357 yet I have in 30-30 with cast bullets. I used up the very last of my old Hercules 2400 in a direct comparison with new Alliant 2400. Using 16 gr of each 2400 under a 311291 with the same cases, case sizing, primers, lube, bullet sizing, alloy, etc. the pressure of the old 2400 averaged 200 psi (M43) higher than the new Alliant 2400 given a 10 shot string of each. Test rifle is a TC Contender carbine with 21" barrel. In other words there is no appreciable difference.

As mentioned by a couple others, in the .38 special case the 10.5 gr load of 2400 under a 150 gr 358477 generally leaves quite a bit of unburned powder. This can cause functioning problems with DA revolvers. This load was considered safe for medium and large frame .38 Special revolvers in several manuals. I shot quite a few of these in a M10 and M15 until I got tired of the cylinders jaming.

However, for use in .357 revolvers I switched to the 358156 cast pretty soft over 13.5 gr of 2400 in .38 Special cases with the bullet crimped in the lower crimp groove. Velocity was 1250 - 1325 fps out of 4, 6 and 7 1/2" barrels. Accuracy was excellent. With the bullet seated out the round was readily identifyable as a .357 load. I shot thousands of these (I used up 4 boxes of Lyman GC + I don't know how many Hornady GCs with that load) and will probably shoot more of them.

Larry Gibson