Ethics question on Muzzle Brakes

[Hick]

I was out at the local range a few days ago and a group arrived and took the shooting bench next to me. Nice folks, very polite, but shooting very high power loads with a muzzle brake. I had a note paper on my bench with sight settings. Every time they fired the rifle the muzzle blast would blow the notes off my bench. It got me to wondering what the proper ethics are for using a muzzle brake at a range. I know I am exposed to lots of things at a range, but not sure I like breathing the muzzle gas of the guy next to me instead of it going down range-- or getting blown around by the blast. I was shooting cast loads (not too loud) but had to push the ear plugs in extra deep to put up with the blast of the guy next to me.

[dk17hmr]

If it's a public range you have to remember you are dealing with....... the public.

I give fair warning personally before touching off one of my loud guns when at the county range. I shoot in the desert more and more and stay away from the public range for several reasons but mainly because of people.

[Greg S]

If I am out shooting with friends in the woods or a public range, i give a coutesy of sitting as far away from others as I can or go off to the side if in the woods.

[sawinredneck]

Curious question, I have a 16" LR/SR-308 with a muzzle break and have been caught in the side blast, I wasn't prepared for that! Shooting it is mild compared to being beside it! What could I put on this rifle, as I'd still like to manage barrel rise, somewhat, without blasting others?
Yes, I'm serious, until standing beside it, I had no idea it really was that bad, I seriously get the OP's question!

[country gent]

I don't have any muzzle breaks but on my rifles with flash hiders or the louder sharper ones I also stay away from the group as much as possible as a courtesy. The BPCRs while loud is a duller boom and not as sharp a crack. What surprises me is when I'm set up away from others how often someone will come and set up beside me when shooting the more annoying ones. I have been around the breaks and they are worse to the sides than behind.

[Artful]

Ideally you would trade out your brake for your suppressor - depending upon the brake you have you can get a cover turning your brake into a psuedo flaming pig which shoves all the blast forward
https://sdtacticalarms.com/assets/images/thumbnails/img_20170309_135015544_thumbnail.jpg
https://sdtacticalarms.com/SDTA-pig-cover_p_72.html

But most brakes won't have the external threads to put on suppressor or cover. And if your sighting in taking off the brake will change the point of impact compared to having it on.

[NavyVet1959]

Curious question, I have a 16" LR/SR-308 with a muzzle break and have been caught in the side blast, I wasn't prepared for that! Shooting it is mild compared to being beside it! What could I put on this rifle, as I'd still like to manage barrel rise, somewhat, without blasting others?
Yes, I'm serious, until standing beside it, I had no idea it really was that bad, I seriously get the OP's question!

If the holes in the muzzle device are pointing sideways, they are doing nothing for barrel rise. Only the holes in the top affect muzzle rise. The ones in the side (if they are angled back towards you) can counteract recoil somewhat. If they are just pointing to the sides, they might reduce recoil a bit since the gas is directed out the sides where it would have no effect vs going out the barrel where it would contribute to recoil slightly.

If you put a muzzle break that only had opening in the top, you would probably reduce the impact upon people beside you while also decreasing your muzzle rise.

[sawinredneck]

If the holes in the muzzle device are pointing sideways, they are doing nothing for barrel rise. Only the holes in the top affect muzzle rise. The ones in the side (if they are angled back towards you) can counteract recoil somewhat. If they are just pointing to the sides, they might reduce recoil a bit since the gas is directed out the sides where it would have no effect vs going out the barrel where it would contribute to recoil slightly.

If you put a muzzle break that only had opening in the top, you would probably reduce the impact upon people beside you while also decreasing your muzzle rise.
Stupid question followed by another.
What if one were to put ports on the top, slightly angled back? A best of both worlds or nightmare?
I'm not where I can look at my brake right now, but it's a stock DPMS Sportical.
I could make the cover discussed, but I think I could buy a "muzzle guard" for less than my time and materials at the machine shop.

[NavyVet1959]

Stupid question followed by another.
What if one were to put ports on the top, slightly angled back? A best of both worlds or nightmare?
I'm not where I can look at my brake right now, but it's a stock DPMS Sportical.
I could make the cover discussed, but I think I could buy a "muzzle guard" for less than my time and materials at the machine shop.

I think that one just has a flash hider. You might want to check the true barrel length on it though. It's listed as "16 inches", but I don't know if that includes the flash hider. If it does, then the flash hider is going to be pinned and welded (or some other rather permanent attachment method). If the barrel itself is 16" without the flash hider, then you can take it off and do whatever you want with it.

But, it's just a .223, so I don't really see a need for controlling muzzle rise in such a light recoiling rifle.

[sawinredneck]

I think that one just has a flash hider. You might want to check the true barrel length on it though. It's listed as "16 inches", but I don't know if that includes the flash hider. If it does, then the flash hider is going to be pinned and welded (or some other rather permanent attachment method). If the barrel itself is 16" without the flash hider, then you can take it off and do whatever you want with it.

But, it's just a .223, so I don't really see a need for controlling muzzle rise in such a light recoiling rifle.

It's threaded, and there are TWO versions of the Sportical, .223 and .308, I've got the larger of the two, so yes, it does help.

[lightman]

To me, it seems kind of rude for a fellow with a brake to set up next to another shooter if there were other benches available. But, giving the fellow the benefit of the doubt, he may not realize how obnoxious a brake can be to those beside him. If it was a large enough range I would get up and move to another bench. If there is room, I'm not above asking him to move farther over provided that I see his brake before he gets all of his gear out and if there are other benches. Stuff like this makes me more appreciative of having a private place to shoot.

On another note, I have a new barrel for my 223 Varmint rifle that I have not installed yet. I am considering putting a brake on it whenever I have it chambered. I have thought about this "obnoxious" factor. My only reason for wanting a brake on a 223 is that it recoils just enough that I don't get to see the Prairie Dog explode in the scope picture! For you Guys that use a brake, is the POI shift consistent with and without the brake or does it change evertime you install and remove it.

[WILCO]

Common courtesy is in short supply these days. It behooves one to act or react accordingly.
Had that been me with my notes blowing in the wind, I would've simply moved on to another bench.
"Defensive Being" is what I call it. Always be prepared to react and adjust to others. Just like driving.

[CHeatermk3]

I put a brake on my 6mm AI varmint gun to help with seeing the hits but took it off in the field--every time the shot broke it felt like someone hit me in the face with a pillow--not conducive to seeing the hits. I tried everything could think of but it was just too much gun for the task--finally went away from the powder hogs and settled on smaller cartriges for anything under 300 yds on prarie dogs. 204 Ruger being my favorite...for larger critters/longer ranges out to 800 it's the 22 CHeetah III--a fast twist cheetah set up for heavy metal in 22 caliber.

No brake there either.

[popper]

My first experience with them was at a public range, some rifle cal 6" AR with a recoil reducing brake. I just moved away from the line thinking the guy would take a hint. Nope. Non-connected wood shooting bench would shake when he pulled the trigger. At least he was doing somewhat rapid fire so it didn't last long before he was out of ammo. At least the pistol bays have solid dividers that help a little.
Top ported brakes are readily available. I don't use one on my LR308 carbine, bounce isn't too bad. Can't imagine why some would use one hunting.

[Iowa Fox]

I'm so use to shooting at the match's were 100% of the line uses brakes with shooters 5 to 6 feet on each of you they don't bother me at all.

[9.3X62AL]

Muzzle brakes are way down the list of "Reasons Why I Do Most Of My Shooting In The Desert". Only one firearm in my safe has such a device, a Glock 22C that I have yet to fire. It will be interesting to see what effect (if any) it has on recoil, which in 40 Short & Weak is not exactly daunting to begin with.

[dk17hmr]

Muzzle brakes are way down the list of "Reasons Why I Do Most Of My Shooting In The Desert". Only once firearm in my safe has such a device, a Glock 22C that I have yet to fire. It will be interesting to see what effect (if any) it has on recoil, which in 40 Short & Weak is not exactly daunting to begin with.

I have a 32c in 357 sig. It's probably the flattest recoiling semi auto handgun I have. It is however very loud and has a blinding muzzle flash.

[Plate plinker]

What was this person shooting a AR?

[sawinredneck]

To me, it seems kind of rude for a fellow with a brake to set up next to another shooter if there were other benches available. But, giving the fellow the benefit of the doubt, he may not realize how obnoxious a brake can be to those beside him. If it was a large enough range I would get up and move to another bench. If there is room, I'm not above asking him to move farther over provided that I see his brake before he gets all of his gear out and if there are other benches. Stuff like this makes me more appreciative of having a private place to shoot.

On another note, I have a new barrel for my 223 Varmint rifle that I have not installed yet. I am considering putting a brake on it whenever I have it chambered. I have thought about this "obnoxious" factor. My only reason for wanting a brake on a 223 is that it recoils just enough that I don't get to see the Prairie Dog explode in the scope picture! For you Guys that use a brake, is the POI shift consistent with and without the brake or does it change overtime you install and remove it.

I fell into the ignorant category, had I not been standing right beside my nephew when he fired it off, I'd have never known how bad it really was, it's bad!
I guess I need to go on a hunt for some type of replacement now.

[quilbilly]

Now you know why I hate the things and I have two. You probably noticed the blast from my 338 WM at NCBS even though I tried to get some distance from others. I did notice some years back that the effect of the brake on that 338 really kicks in at about 1850-1900 fps so I try to keep my velocity just below that which helps a little and maybe is not so bad for others. Even at the lower velocity, you can't use it in the field without ear protection without experience real pain.

[Artful]

For you Guys that use a brake, is the POI shift consistent with and without the brake or does it change overtime you install and remove it.

In my guns the poi shift is consistent if your using the same gun, ammo and brake / suppressor
change any of that and it's going to have a new POI. For example if I shoot with a
muzzle brake and add a suppressor to the muzzle brake it will change the POI
Let's say you have two guns running the same muzzle brake and you move the suppressor
from one gun to the other - on one rifle it changes it 2" and the other 4". But it is repeatable.

[Down South]

I dislike muzzle brakes. I have several very high powered rifles, one of them custom. I hate the noise of rifles that have them. In my opinion, a muzzle brake doesn't help that much anyway.
My Browning Citori 725 Sporting 12 Ga came with muzzle brakes on both barrels. I wish it didn't have them but as far as I know it's not an option to not have them.

[KCSO]

Next time take a flinter and don't holler flintlock before you touch one off!

[MUSTANG]

Only have (1) rifle with a muzzle break, my AR-50 rifle (.50 BMG). Feels like shooting a 12 gauge or less; without it not sure I would shoot it. Blast to the sides is "IMMENSE". I always have spotters and spectators stand behind the shooter when we go to the range. I also try to shoot during the week if at a Club Range, always warn anyone in the area before we shoot given the massive gas blast on the sides where the break funnels the blast.

[Down South]

Only have (1) rifle with a muzzle break, my AR-50 rifle (.50 BMG). Feels like shooting a 12 gauge or less; without it not sure I would shoot it. Blast to the sides is "IMMENSE". I always have spotters and spectators stand behind the shooter when we go to the range. I also try to shoot during the week if at a Club Range, always warn anyone in the area before we shoot given the massive gas blast on the sides where the break funnels the blast.
My club doesn't allow 50 BMG's. They claim it tears up the berms too bad.
Anyway, I saw a funny YouTube Video sometime back of a guy shooting a 50 BMG off the tailgate of his truck. He was using the tailgate for a bench. His first shot "I assume" cratered the tail light and lens that was close to the muzzle.

[sawinredneck]

Well I'm looking and all I'm finding is a thread cover or $180 "flash hider", I'd like something that looks halfway decent to replace what's on it now.

[9.3X62AL]

I have a 32c in 357 sig. It's probably the flattest recoiling semi auto handgun I have. It is however very loud and has a blinding muzzle flash.

Awright, Doug. Duly noted. LTNS, Senor!

[lightman]

Artful, Thanks for the info. That makes sense and is about what I would have thought. Down South, there is a big difference with brakes. I have shot some that are like you describe in not making much difference and I have shot some that were very effective. I've even seen some that helped accuracy. I'm not sure how to tell the difference without shooting with one. Effective or not, they are all loud and obnoxious!

[Blanket]

never have had that problem since I shoot on my own range, but did you talk to the folks before you got your feelers hurt?

[MaryB]

I disagree, I use a muzzle brake on my 223 AR and it helps a lot with target follow up. I am typically shooting 200- 300 yards... so using a scope.


I think that one just has a flash hider. You might want to check the true barrel length on it though. It's listed as "16 inches", but I don't know if that includes the flash hider. If it does, then the flash hider is going to be pinned and welded (or some other rather permanent attachment method). If the barrel itself is 16" without the flash hider, then you can take it off and do whatever you want with it.

But, it's just a .223, so I don't really see a need for controlling muzzle rise in such a light recoiling rifle.

[David2011]

I think that one just has a flash hider. You might want to check the true barrel length on it though. It's listed as "16 inches", but I don't know if that includes the flash hider. If it does, then the flash hider is going to be pinned and welded (or some other rather permanent attachment method). If the barrel itself is 16" without the flash hider, then you can take it off and do whatever you want with it.

But, it's just a .223, so I don't really see a need for controlling muzzle rise in such a light recoiling rifle.


Muzzle brakes are way down the list of "Reasons Why I Do Most Of My Shooting In The Desert". Only one firearm in my safe has such a device, a Glock 22C that I have yet to fire. It will be interesting to see what effect (if any) it has on recoil, which in 40 Short & Weak is not exactly daunting to begin with.

In both cases it's not how hard the gun recoils, it's where it's pointing after the shot. A compensator allows for a faster follow up shot whether varmint hunting or competing. One varmint hunter I know had a JP recoil eliminator installed on his .22-250 so he could see his bullet strikes.

I went hunting with a friend last week that had a blast deflector on his AR. It was like a tube with a washer welded into the back end of it, about twice the diameter of the break. It did a good job of deflecting the blast forward but the comp was still effective.

[swheeler]

Be careful and wear eye protection when sitting next to the guy shooting with a muzzle brake. Years ago I was at local range when a couple guys show up with a rifle and a newly installed brake, first shot I got a sting on my neck, walked over to my pickup and looked in the mirror, blood dot. I loaded up and went home, wife took a very small spec of metal out of my skin with nail clippers, white metal IIRC so something left over from install. I guess the neck is better than an eye.

[tommag]

Our rifle clubs have blast shields made of 1/8" plywood. They are in 2x4 bases and are approximately 60 degrees with a 2" gap in the center.to put the bbl in.

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess my first thought would be can "I" move away from it. If not then id ask politely when he was going to be done so I could shoot without the distraction and maybe ask him politely what days he shoots so you can avoid it. As long as theres no rule against it at that range I guess he has the same right to shoot as I do. I think about 99 percent of people are going to try to work with you if you ask nicely. Some people who only shoot say a 22lr might have the same attitude if someone is shooting there 300 mag getting ready for hunting season or is shooting a 454 that day. Because you only shoot 22s doesn't really give you right to control what others consider fun to shoot. Back in the day I shot at a organized range. the rifle/handgun range was about a 100 yards from the trap and skeet range. Typical of a lot of gun clubs the trap and skeet shooters were kind of the snobs and thought they controlled the club. I was shooting a few handguns one day and 3 guys walked up to me and told me I had to quit shooting because it was bothering them and causing misses. Now I was there an hour before then showed up and they heard me shooting when they started. I told them that and they got snooty so I basically told them where to pack it and put away my 45 acps and 9s and pulled out the 475 and 500 and gave them something to wine about. they went stomping into the club house and complained to the president of the club. He came out and ask me about it and it told him what happened. He told the trap guys that if they didn't like it to pack up and come back another day.

[lightman]

Lloyd, that would be my approach too. When I made my first post, I think I failed to mention that my first attempt at communication would have been friendly and polite. It would have remained so as long as the other shooter tried to do the same. But arrogant snooty people can cause the Lineman in me to come out!

[reloader28]

I like them for certain things.
I put a muzzle brake on my 30-06 that is light weight for mountain hunting. It kicked fairly hard and since 99% of its shooting is on a bench, it now kicks about like a 243, but very loud. Made a huge difference.

[MaryB]

Even on my AR the recoil reduction helps my carpal tunnel/rotator cuff issues, I need to order a brake for my shortened type 53(7.62x54r Chinese Mosin) because it beats the heck out of my shoulder. 10 shots and I am done...

[Someudername]

I make muzzle brakes, and have them on just about every rifle I own, and I've never had a complaint from any other shooter at the range. First off, they don't, nor can they, amplify the sound, merely redirect it. My brakes not only reduce recoil, they kill muzzle lift, because that's how I designed them, with the ports venting up and back, at 30 and 80 degrees. Inside, there are expansion chambers for the gas, before venting, something I have not seen on any other brake, and only one baffle, at the front. The exception to this, is on my .300 win mag, which I machined a second baffle at the center. Frankly, I can't hear any difference in sound levels.

[Down South]

I make muzzle brakes, and have them on just about every rifle I own, and I've never had a complaint from any other shooter at the range. First off, they don't, nor can they, amplify the sound, merely redirect it. My brakes not only reduce recoil, they kill muzzle lift, because that's how I designed them, with the ports venting up and back, at 30 and 80 degrees. Inside, there are expansion chambers for the gas, before venting, something I have not seen on any other brake, and only one baffle, at the front. The exception to this, is on my .300 win mag, which I machined a second baffle at the center. Frankly, I can't hear any difference in sound levels.
You are correct that they redirect the sound, to those off to the side, or try shooting one out of a tin roof box stand. an AR 15 with the flash hider/muzzle brake with such a small cartridge is louder than a 300 Mag without a muzzle brake off the bench to me.
Barrel lift may be an issue to some. Most of my shots are hunting other than testing loads. If I don't make my first shot true on a deer, a second shot is about as useless as a screen door on a submarine.

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4iSpvU9420

Although I doubt he's using correct equipment and methodology it shows there is
a difference between brake designs.

[mtnman31]

Not trying to drift too far off topic, but, this article compares different muzzle devices. It's well written and pretty detailed. It shows how drastically a quality design can change a brake's effectiveness.
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/08/21/muzzle-brake-summary-of-field-test-results/

[garym1a2]

In 3gun and multigun shooting muzzle brakes are used a lot. I tend to use ear plugs and electronic muffs on top. Back when I shot high power matches where the line was all M1s, M1As and bolt guns in 308 and 30-06 I thought the sound was much worse than the comp ARs. Nowdays most of my ARs use flash suppressors. My 14.5 AR uses a pinned flash suppersor to make 16.1 Inches. My brother has a 10.5inch AR in 5.56 and a muzzlebrake. It is very loud. But the muzzle brake in made to go with his suppersor and works well to make it quiter. Muffs are still need.

At my range I tend to not shoot near the loud guns and when I shoot loud guns I will try to stay away from people shooting quit guns.

[lightload]

Anybody remember the old Lyman Cutts Compesators once popular with shotgun shooters many decades ago? They too had side vents making them deafening to be near. I once shot a Thompson that had a Cutts with top vents on the barrel. They were standard on certain early models.

[Lloyd Smale]

kind of the

"lineman in me" that fueled my reaction that day! Guess too as lineman were kind of use to loud and arrogant people and not taking lip from them as a lot of the guys we work for are that way.
Lloyd, that would be my approach too. When I made my first post, I think I failed to mention that my first attempt at communication would have been friendly and polite. It would have remained so as long as the other shooter tried to do the same. But arrogant snooty people can cause the Lineman in me to come out!

[opos]

For some years I shot a Ruger Blackhawk in 30 carbine caliber..Indoors it was very loud and threw a muzzle flash that was nuts...I was very careful when I shot it to try and get away from folks but if not...I'd often shoot something else till they left or advise them I was about to unleash a blast and fire that might take them by surprise...after the first few shots...most asked if they could shoot it and I'd usually say yes (depending on the person)..sold it some years back..kind of wish I had it back.

[15meter]

As brakes become more common, people are beginning to understand how annoying they can be. Ten years ago I would have said that he was not aware of how much they disturbed those around him. Today, I suspect he just didn't care.

We had one young guy with a break on a 243 that would lift your hat when he touched it off when you were shooting on the bench next to him. Took a little explaining to get him to move away.

And a joking offer to bring out a strip of sheet metal and a couple of hose clamps if he didn't.