Switching powders..........

[Knarley]

I have been using GOEX for years, but now , time for a change.
Graf & Sons vs Old Eynsford wich is the better way to go?

Thanks,
Knarley

[sharpsguy]

Graf and Sons is less expensive, Old Eynsford has more velocity and softer fouling.

[rfd]

swiss.

[Knarley]

So the "Old E' would shoot flatter and cleaner.
Loading for 45-70, and later a Shilo 38-55.

[Don McDowell]

Olde Eynsford is a much better powder than the regular Goex. OE should be treated much like Swiss,Schuetzen(grafs) in that the 1 1/2 f is about the same powder kernel size as 2f Goex. 2f OE is similar in kernel size to 3f Goex.

[Knarley]

So how does it compare to G&S?

[rfd]

oh, a .45-70 ... swiss 1-1/2f - there's a winning reason most of the top shooters use it.

[Baja_Traveler]

Swiss has always been my first choice, but a few of us have been using OE for several years now, and I have not seen any difference in my BPCR Silhouette scores. At nearly half the price, it is a winner in my opinion...

[Don McDowell]

So how does it compare to G&S?
OE will give a bit more velocity and much easier to deal with fouling.

[freedom475]

I have been using GOEX for years, but now , time for a change.
Graf & Sons vs Old Eynsford wich is the better way to go?

Thanks,
Knarley

Old E is the way to go.

There is no comparison really...I have used 3 cases of Graf's and it is just Schutzen powder relabeled with Grafs label. The Grafs is fine powder for it's cost for my flintlock, but it NO way compares to Olde E 1 1/2f for BPCR

Olde E is American! And it's cheaper than Swiss.. And it easily shoots as well as Swiss!!

Goex and Hodgdon sent 2 American employees to the Quigley this year and they shook my hand to thank me for support. I didn't see Swiss there???

Most of the the folks that preach Swiss have not given OE a chance because it works!.

But most everyone that shoots in the heat is learning that OE will hydrate way better than Swiss and is easily as accurate! And it is usually a little faster.

Don't believe all the hype about "top" shooters either...those folks will out-shoot most of us, even if they use smokeless or nitrated horse cr@p ,it's not their powder choice that makes them win. :Fire:

[Don McDowell]

T

Most of the the folks that preach Swiss have not given it a chance because it works.

But most everyone that shoots in the heat is learning that OE will hydrate way better than Swiss and is easily as accurate!.

Don't believe all the hype about "top" shooters either...those folks will out-shoot most even if they use smokeless or nitrated horse cr@p ,it's not their powder choice that makes them win. :mrgreen:

Well said.

[Knarley]

Well then, Old E it is. I know I'll never be shooting at you guys's level, but I sure appreciate the help.
Knarley

[Boz330]

I'm not a top shooter but I switched from Swiss to OE because of price and haven't noticed any down side on my scores. In fact they have probably improved because of more trigger time for the same money. Of course I am using more lead but I haven't exhausted my supply of free lead yet so I'm still ahead of the game.

Bob

[Bent Ramrod]

I would say it depends on your level of expertise in loading.

If you have managed to get decent results with regular GOEX, your techniques ought to transfer easily to the Olde Eynsford, with better results on the target.

I had some fairly promising groups with Schuetzen (when it was Schuetzen), but when OE 1-1/2 came along, I quit the research on the other powders. It took 3 gr more OE 1-1/2 to get the same elevations as with Swiss 1-1/2 at 600 yards, and then the groups were the same. Pricewise, I was still way, way ahead.

Swiss is ideal for those getting started. It doesn't necessarily need compression, so an optimum load is achieved pretty quickly. If you have yet to see your first 3 MOA 5-shot group, loading with Swiss will tell you if your gun is accurate or not. But with OE $10 a pound cheaper than Swiss, there is a powerful incentive to switch over, if it is possible. I've done so with 1-1/2Fg and grease groove boolits, and am working on 1Fg with paper patch.

And you're probably shooting at my level already. I'm still trying to get into AA Class. But it isn't the gun or load holding me back.

[kokomokid]

You could save a lot of money by using Kik or Skirmish.

[Don McDowell]

I I've done so with 1-1/2Fg and grease groove boolits, and am working on 1Fg with paper patch.

.

I you stick with 1 1/2 with the patched and just add 2 more grains of powder over your grease groove load you'll likely find it easier than going with the 1f.

[freedom475]

You could save a lot of money by using Kik or Skirmish.

KIK is good stuff...but it's not made in American, I don't think it is made at all any more. The fouling is really dry and hard. You have to work at it to get it to shoot well. I had to "sock" the powder to remove some of the flour and send a lot of lead down range.

Here's a group that really shows its' capability at 300 yards with proper fouling control and load work. :holysheep

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113645&d=1408132737

[Don McDowell]

KIK was a good powder in some cartridges. It was a lot like the old Goex Cartridge. But as it is no longer available, working up a load with it now would be an excercise in trigger time, unless a person has a case of it laying in the powder magazine..

[country gent]

Ive been using Olde Ensford in most of my BPCR guns . I tried Swiss and still have some here. The Olde Ensford just seems to work for me. The swiss gave good accuracy and a little harder fouling also seemed like more fouling but that's kind of subjective. The olde Ensford seems to shoot very well with very good extreme spreads and Standard deviations. ( my one load gave 3.2 SD with olde ensford). If you can do it by mixed case of graffs and olde ensford in 1F, 11/2F and 2F. work and see what the rifkes like and then buy the full case of that.

[beltfed]

FWIW,
Pricing at Powder Inc
KIK 1.5, 1F $14.90 (until gone- its discontinued)
Goex $18.10
Schuetzen $17.55
O.E. $19.55
Swiss $24.15
All, case lot pricing with shipping/hazmat
At a 70 gr load, the Swiss is .2415 per shot, the OE is .1955 per shot.
The Swiss is about 20% more per shot than is OE.
A savings to use OE, but not humongous difference.
I would not change from Swiss to OE just to save 5c per shot.
I suggest, simply shoot what works best in your gun.
beltfed/arnie

[beltfed]

Oh, and I would indeed pay the 19.55 for OE over the regular Goex and Schuetzen pricing
if it works that well.
Will probably eventually try the OE in comparison to the Swiss 1.5 I have been using.
Too bad the KIK went out. I had found that the KIK 2F shot Very Closely with the Swiss 1.5-
velocity and accuracy.
beltfed/arnie

[Don McDowell]

If you liked what KIK did for you, you're really going to like Olde E

[John Boy]

KIK was a good powder in some cartridges. It was a lot like the old Goex Cartridge. But as it is no longer availableDon, Jerry at Powder Inc still has the remaining 2009 lot of KIK that was shipped in 2010. It's $14.40, case lot price

Yes, in addition I like Olde E because they did a better job polishing this grade of powder and they juiced the grades up by adding 40 and 60 mesh grains to yield a higher velocity.
Charcoal is the 'Engine' for original gunpowder. There are only 3 brands on the market that make their charcoal with Alder Buckthron branches, the best wood with the highest amount of glucose harvested in the Spring... Swiss, KIK and Schuetzen (aka Graf's powder). Goex is still using maple wood charcoal from a commercial producer

Mesh size comparison between Swiss & Olde E 1.5g & FFFg grades:
Swiss 1.5 (250.205)
12 mesh – 0.27% retained
14 mesh – 5.24% retained
20 mesh - 92.59% retained
30 mesh - 0.10% retained
Through - 0.72%

Olde E' 1.5Fg:
20 mesh - 98.163% Hold
30 mesh - 0.612% Hold
40 mesh - 0.000%
50 mesh - 1.224% Hold
60 mesh - Trace
80 mesh - Trace Passed


Swiss FFFg (270.409
20 mesh - Trace
30 mesh - 87.2% Hold
40 mesh - 12.8% Hold
50 mesh - Trace

Olde E FFFg:
10 mesh - Zero
20 mesh - 8.07% Hold
30 mesh - 44.72% Hold
40 mesh - 32.29% Hold
50 mesh - 13.66% Hold
60 mesh - 1.24% Hold
80 mesh - Trace passed

[Big Mak]

Graf and Sons is less expensive, Old Eynsford has more velocity and softer fouling.

I've not tried Swiss but I agree with the Old Eynsford assessment. I need to chrono some Goex vs OE one of these days.

[jonp]

In my 43 Spanish I did find O.E. easier to clean than Goex but not enough to worry me any. Never shot either over a chrono as I'm not really interested in that.

At the price KIK is listed at Powder Inc I'd buy that. Last Goex I bought at Bass Pro the guy asked me what I wanted it for. I looked at him kinda oddly and told him an Argentine 43 Spanish BP. He was just making sure I wanted it for something other than a bomb.

If I were you, and I'm not, I'd buy the components from a fireworks company and make my own at home. I started doing that and the results are not bad and the price is outstanding.

[byrd45900]

A few of my friends are going to Old E after years of shooting Swiss.

[beltfed]

unfortunately, Jerry has only KIK 1f and 1 1/2 left. I had found that the KIK 2F
performed Very closely to Swiss 1.5.when I used the same WEIGHT, not same volume.
But the KIK 1 1/2 was not nearly as good, and I have no use for 1F.
Too bad, I would have bought some more KIK 2F -if he had it.
beltfed/arnie

[Lead pot]

Just recently I ordered two cases of 1.5 Swiss to give it another try for the matches and I put a lot of ladder loads down range with different primers and bullets and to this day I have not found a load that works as good as the 2F OE does in the .45-90 I been using since last summer for the matches. My load for the .45-90 using the same PP bullets I use 84 gr of 1.5 swiss and the OE I use 83 gr of 2F. Those are the best accuracy loads I have worked up using both powders and the point of impact is identical at the 500 mtr and the 1000 yard line with the same sight setting.
This is not saying that I won't quit trying to find a load using Swiss that works as well for me then the OE does.
I do shoot to win matches and I will use the best load I can develop to get the job done.

[Old-Win]

I'll use Arnie's example. If I travel to Lodi and shoot a match I pay about $80 in gasoline another $80 for two nights for a room if I share with somebody, $50 entry fees, two nights at the lake for fish dinner and cocktails. So what does that come to? For a nickel a shot more and I fire 100 shots it cost me $5 extra if I'm shooting Swiss. Quit worrying about price and shoot the powder that works best for you. Life is too short to drink cheap beer.

[Chill Wills]

I'll use Arnie's example. If I travel to Lodi and shoot a match I pay about $80 in gasoline another $80 for two nights for a room if I share with somebody, $50 entry fees, two nights at the lake for fish dinner and cocktails. So what does that come to? For a nickel a shot more and I fire 100 shots it cost me $5 extra if I'm shooting Swiss. Quit worrying about price and shoot the powder that works best for you. Life is too short to drink cheap beer.

Yup, That is the example I use when I try to explain to someone the foolishness of trying to save a penny or two.
I just got back from the NRA nationals. I talk to a lot of friends there. After 18 years there I know most everyone competing.
Not one person I have talked to that has tried to improve his load accuracy by switching from Swiss to Olde Eynsford or any other powder for that mater, has made the change. They come back to Swiss.

It could be that I have not talked to everyone. It could be that someone who has placed high or won the nationals is keeping this a secret, but so far as I know, anyone who shoots well did it with Swiss.
I have a case of Olde Eynsford here and have been testing it for about 18 months and had four sample cans before that. That is a lot of test loads. I have yet to load something that could not be bettered by Swiss in its place.

Here's to hoping! I would LOVE to find a way to make stellar accurate ammo using an American made powder!

[rfd]

... I have a case of Olde Eynsford here and have been testing it for about 18 months and had four sample cans before that. That is a lot of test loads. I have yet to load something that could not be bettered by Swiss in its place.

Here's to hoping! I would LOVE to find a way to make stellar accurate ammo using an American made powder!

+1 ................

[Don McDowell]

The folks that have been shooting Swiss for years and doing well with it have no substantive reason to try anything else. Once you find something that works you stick with it. That's why the majority of those same shooters wouldn't touch a paper patch bullet with some one else pecker...
But at the same time, I'm reminded of when Express came out, I asked one of the big time guys why he was shooting Swiss instead of Express when Express was showing some good results, his reply back was that he had tried Express, it actually shot better slightly better groups than Swiss, but because he didn't like the people at Goex he wasn't going to use it. I hear the same thing from no small number of folks now. They don't like Hogdon's in any way shape or form and so they're not going to try any of the Eynsford..I also know a shooter that does well, but reports his loads as being Swiss, but is shooting OE..
Bottom line it all comes back to what Wes said several posts back, the folks that are winning matches consistently could do so with nitrated horse pucky, so long as they have their regular spotter, things have a nasty habit of getting out of control on the score board sometimes without the same ol spotter shooter team...

[Lead pot]

:) I think using Swiss or OE is like this little fellers blankey :) 199977 I know it is for me because I haven't found a load using swiss I feel comfortable with, and it is not the cost difference between the two and I'm still working on it.

[Don McDowell]

Well Swiss has been around along time, it has a well deserved reputation. OE hasn't been around all that long, but in the last few years, it has been showing well by the few folks that have taken time to run it. 2015 it won the Quigley, looking at the top 10 finishers at the Q this year, I know there were at least 2 of them and most likely 4 shooting OE( keeping in mind this is the largest single shot rifle match in the world ). A shooter running OE this year has set a new 600 yd national record and won a handful of fairly big silhouette matches..
It's a taste great/less filling thing.

[Boz330]

I have run across several shooters that have tried OE and gone back to Swiss, not because it is better but because they had a load that shot well and their time is limited for testing. Also when they go overseas Swiss is what is available.
I have to admit that I have taken the easy path before just because of time or in some cases frustration trying to work up a new load. I found a load for my Gibbs rifle with Kik that shoots very well. I use OE in my cartridge rifles but haven't tried to work up a load for the Gibbs because I still have some Kik left and I'm lazy.

Bob

[Hahndorf1874]

G,day
Interesting subject,here in Australia Swiss is touted as best practice,I have never used it because of the cost here in AU ,You can be quoted $150au a kilo for it,I use Wano P with some success,others use Wano PP.Have any of you guys tried it?Is it available in the states?price wise about $80au a kilo.

Cheers Mal in au.

[Don McDowell]

Bob I think you hit the nail square on the head. Folks that have gone thru the covooky dance and found a load aren't likely to take the time away and work up a new load with another powder.

Mal I've had some good results with the Wano (it's branded as Schuetzen here) 2f in the 45-70, 65 gr with a .030 fiber wad and a 530 gr grease groove bullet. It seemed to work best at zero compression.

[Gunlaker]

I've shot some quite nice targets at 200m with Schuetzen FFg, but dropped the experimenting because my .45-2.4 lost nearly 100 fps compared to Swiss 1.5, and the velocity variation was off the charts crazy.

I like OE quite a bit. I shoot a little more Swiss 1.5, but use OE 1.5 in my .40-65. That rifle shoots extremely well so I have zero concern about that particular lot being inferior to Swiss. At the Wyoming state midrange match the rifle kept pace with Rick Moritz until some serious user error on the last 600 yard target. Kenny's results also show the powder is good.

With that said I use Swiss in my Borchardt so far. In each rifle I shoot whichever powder is working best for me. When shooting for practice cost can be a valid concern, but not for match shooting. I drive between 1000 to 1500 miles each way to the BPTR matches, at 11-12 mpg and a few nights of KOA fees, the cost of powder could be twice as high as Swiss 1.5 and it wouldn't make much difference.

Chris.

[Boz330]

G,day
Interesting subject,here in Australia Swiss is touted as best practice,I have never used it because of the cost here in AU ,You can be quoted $150au a kilo for it,I use Wano P with some success,others use Wano PP.Have any of you guys tried it?Is it available in the states?price wise about $80au a kilo.

Cheers Mal in au.

Holy Moly, I'm not sure what the conversion rate to US dollars would be but that is some serious money to shoot BP. The long range muzzle loading match is coming up down there in September and the teams have to get there powder in the country since you can't take it with you on airplanes. Of course compared to the cost of getting there that is peanuts. And I thought that the cost of reloading was high when I lived in South Africa.

Bob

[byrd45900]

I like Swiss,but a good many of my shooting friends are trying Old E.Try some loads with both and let your rifle tell you.

[country gent]

Not sure about Australia but. A friend went to Africa with a big flintlock to hunt ( He took a cap buffalo with a homemade 20MM flint lock) He couldn't fly with loose powder so he bought it there. He said a 1 lb can of goex 1F was $95.00 and a half days time in paper work and run around. And He did take a nice cape with it. This would have been late 90s or very early 2000

[Chill Wills]

The folks that have been shooting Swiss for years and doing well with it have no substantive reason to try anything else. Once you find something that works you stick with it. That's why the majority of those same shooters wouldn't touch a paper patch bullet with some one else pecker...
But at the same time, I'm reminded of when Express came out, I asked one of the big time guys why he was shooting Swiss instead of Express when Express was showing some good results, his reply back was that he had tried Express, it actually shot better slightly better groups than Swiss, but because he didn't like the people at Goex he wasn't going to use it. I hear the same thing from no small number of folks now. They don't like Hogdon's in any way shape or form and so they're not going to try any of the Eynsford..I also know a shooter that does well, but reports his loads as being Swiss, but is shooting OE..
Bottom line it all comes back to what Wes said several posts back, the folks that are winning matches consistently could do so with nitrated horse pucky, so long as they have their regular spotter, things have a nasty habit of getting out of control on the score board sometimes without the same ol spotter shooter team...

I sure wish that everyone that shot in master class thought like you. :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:
Are you going to shoot the 30th anniversary match with us? Should be a good one - we can camp.

[Don McDowell]

I sure wish that everyone that shot in master class thought like you. :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:
Are you going to shoot the 30th anniversary match with us? Should be a good one - we can camp.I am 2/3 planning on it. Would like to see how far into the berm the 4090 will plant chickens[emoji3]

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