The Truth about Glocks and Cast

[45nut]

So we can actually settle this debate and I can sticky a thread can someone[s] chime in with facts from personal experience[s] with their Glocks and cast.

Notice I asked for facts, not hearsay, not factory advisements, etc.
For the record, I do not own a Glock and have no dog in this fight.
No digging in other's experiences for sake of an argument are needed, please keep it civil. [smilie=1:

[GlockJockey]

My Glock 22 has 18k rounds and counting in the factory barrel. For the record, shooting minor power factor. 175g TC with Rooster Red over 3.0g WST at about 715 fps 1.135 OAL.

[45nut]

http://www.martinihenry.com/images2/enfieldmetford.jpg
The Metford is very similar to Gastons Poly rifling, and I never heard of Martini's blowing up because of cast. Would the Martini owners agree?

[Mumblypeg]

This is a good one (Not that the others aren't). I have put hundreds of rounds through a model 22 (not thousands) with no ill efect that I can see. I can't understand what all the fuss is about with shooting cast boolits in those barrels? I have found no lead build up but clean often as I do with all my firearms. No signs of excess pressure either. So why do they say not to shoot lead? I'll be watching...BTW my load is 5grs. of win 231 under a 180grn. TC. Shoots great.

[cbr]

I have had good luck with cast in a .40 model 23 and a 22 with factory barrel as long as I keep the loads light. If I try to push them at all I get some leading. I use a Lone Wolf barrel for my hotter loads now. Its easier on the brass too.

[mooman76]

I have shot about 400 rnds through my Glock 22 with no ill effects. No bad leading, maybe a little. It didn't shoot great, not bad but I was hoping for better. I believe the poly rifling makes for bigger bore needing a slightly bigger bullet to keep the leading down. I shoot mine as cast straight WW's some water dropped LLA for lube, mid range loads. I have also shot some heavier loads with a wolf barrel.

[lathesmith]

In the mid-'90's, I owned a Glock 19 that I put hundreds of low- to medium- pressure cast loads through. The gun shot as good when I traded it as it did when I first got it. I'm not making any claims or endorsements, just relating my personal experience.
lathesmith

[9.3X62AL]

Zero issues with several cast boolit designs in my Model 21 x 45 ACP. I've run #452460 past 1000 FPS without a trace of leading, sized both .454" and .452"--accuracy and performance was unaffected. Alloys were both WW and Taracorp, lube was Javelina.

If a bullet fits, it won't normally deposit lead.

[shotman]

ok you guys that have them what kind of groups do you get at 25yds AND try to be honest. I have shot 4 different guns and none will shoot with a colt or kimber and even a 220 sig will out shoot them rick

[missionary5155]

Poor fitting Boolits... How many loaders purchase brand X ...and load it without ever wondering about bore size ? Hey it´s cheap ... shoot it . I have DE-LEADED many old rifle barrels... then shot hundreds of PROPER FITTING BOOLITS (as most of you) and just needed to clean out powder residue. I have a Glock .40 and shot 2000+ of my home cast before I ever heard of this... I could not see or get any lead out of the barrel ?? So on I will go happily in my ignorance enjoying a fine tool with a GREAT home brewed product.

[AnthonyB]

I've posted before about my Glock 30 45 ACP and years of success using cast boolits. It may have fired some jacketed factory ammo when it was new, but has seen cast only for at least the last seven years. The RCBS 45-230 CM and six grains of Unique will do just about everything I need a handgun to do. Tony

[Ron]

My GLOCK 34 has had a couple of thou of my cast through it and never a sign of leading. I didn't like the possible case expansion problem so bought a Storm Lake bbl to give more case support. If you don't use hot loads you shouldn't have problems with a GLOCK 9mm., can't talk about other calibres. I find no difference in accurancy between the two bbls.

[yondering]

I had terrible leading with two different Glock 23's. One was pretty much new, the other gun was older with a lot of jacketed rounds through it. This was with commercial cast stuff though.

[mooman76]

My groups weren't that great, not bad but not as good as I hoped for. Probubly about 8" at 25y. That is offhand thought and I don't like to brag but I am a well above average shot with a pistol. That's with a compensated Glock 22 with 175g Lee TC and SWC bullets.

[ra_balke]

LEAD BULLETS IN THE GLOCK.

I spoke to the factory rep, he said in no way should you shoot lead bullets in the glock pistol !
He told me that lead slowly builds up in the barrel, and eventually you build pressures to the point where the barrel explodes.




My gunsmith buddy had a glock in his shop, bbl had burst, the guy was shooting lead bullets.


I was in a local sport store, there was a guy in there talking about a burst bbl in his glock,, how the pressures of the load kept building, and building, and how he thought a lot of bad powder was to blame. I asked him were you shooting lead bullets,,, he said yes. Lead bullets were all he shot.

If you shoot lead bullets in the Glock buy a replacement bbl with traditional rifling. That is what the factory rep told me.

[Cayoot]

I have a glock 34 and was wanting to try shooting lead in it. More specifically, I would like to try SWCs. However, the only moulds I have for SWCs are .358s (for my .38/.357s). Do you guys think it would be too dangerous to shoot .358s in a 9 mm tube? Maybe I should just see about getting a .356 sizer?

About building pressures due to accumulation of lead...what about just running a Lewis Lead Remover through it now and then?

What do you guys think?

[MakeMineA10mm]

Wow, Ken, you know how to stir up a hornet's nest.

First off, I'll say that I agree with you in principle, because I've read about the Metford rifling. Also, I recall that back in the really old days, there were square-bore guns (don't know if I'd call them rifles, since I don't think there was a twist, but still...). To cause even more trust in lead and Glocks, I can add my own experience with my first Glock. It was a 9mm G-17, and I purposely meant to test it's reliability and durability. I shot between 5000 and 6000 rounds of cast lead reloads (122gr LRN & 4.5-4.7grs of W231 in military cases, so it was pretty hot) without ANY cleaning over a period of about 8 months. There was never a pressure excursion or other problem with any of these loads.

On the other hand, I've been a member (and moderator) over at GlockTalk for about 10 years. There is a fellow member/moderator over there whom I respect greatly. He is a failure analysis engineer for a large firm and has examined ~35 blown-up Glocks under contract to determine the truth (whether that helped or hurt the clients). He also used his personal Glock 45 set up in a test with pressure-measuring equipment mounted to the factory barrel. He fired a fairly light lead-bullet load and was able to measure pressure increasing with EVERY round fired after a two to three dozen rounds were fired. He stopped the test before he intended to, because the pressure readings got dangerously high and he didn't want to blow up his personal pistol...

Then, you have the problem of Glock's TOP-SECRET-LEVEL silence on problems with ka-BOOMing Glocks. (I'm no Glock-hater, either. I'm a certified Glock Armorer; I've met, talked with, and supported the VP of Glock in charge of the US operation and several other Glock employees and functions; and I have an extensive collection of Glocks - over 25 at last count.) Nevertheless, Glock's abject silence is not helping this issue. They'd be so much better off to just come out with any analysis or information they have about this issue and put it to rest...



All that said, I believe the following:

Polygonal rifling is different than conventional and MAY cause a problem with leading FOR DIFFERENT REASONS THAN WHAT WE TRADITIONAL BULLET CASTERS ARE USED TO LOOKING AT/THINKING ABOUT. (Therefore, the things we usually work on to avoid leading may be counter-productive in poly-rifling.) This can then be compounded by the fact that polygonal rifling seals better than conventional, and therefore, when the leading DOES occur, it gets worse faster. Also, as opposed to the Metford system, powders have vastly changed since the 1800s, not to mention the composition of the lead bullets, style of priming, metallurgy of the cases and barrels, etc... So, I'm not convinced it is a terrific comparison.

[45nut]

To mention the hammer forged barrels and notoriously short or non existent throats of the Gaston wonder vs the nice long throats of the Martini rifles with Metford rifling and no lead issues would invite more debate right Mic?

Not that I am poking the swarm with a stick. lol

[Geraldo]

I shot a few hundred commercially cast bullets through a G21 before I got the word that it was a bad idea. Nothing bad happened, but I don't recall them producing better groups than jacketed bullets. Given that the cost of aftermarket barrels isn't all that great, the smart play is probably to use such a barrel for use with CBs.

Glock KBs, as well as NYPD and LAPD issues, are to my knowledge unrelated to bullets.

[Slogg76]

A friend of mine has shot thousands of rounds of cast bullets through his 40 caliber Glock that he originally purchased back when we were in college (around 1998 I think). Although I tried and tried to get him to purchase a replacement barrel with standard rifling he insisted the factory barrel is just fine. It still shoots as good as when he bought it, but I still would not recomend shooting cast in a factory Glock barrel.
As far as accuracy, his Glock shot just as well with cast as it did with jacketed bullets: Around 2" to 3" groups at 25 yards. I've shot many Glocks and they were all very accurate. The Glock 20 I owned was probably the most accurate handgun I ever shot at 50 yards. That is as long as I shot it off a rest. Off-hand I can not shoot Glocks well because they tend to rise in my hand and shift all over the place as I shoot. They are great guns, they just don't fit my hands well.

[Lloyd Smale]

I load for a buddy who has a 10mm glock. He has shot thouands of my cast handloads through it and claims they outshoot jacketed in his gun by a bunch. I keep the pressures on the safe side and use hard alloys.

[S.R.Custom]

To mention the hammer forged barrels and notoriously short or non existent throats of the Gaston wonder vs the nice long throats of the Martini rifles with Metford rifling and no lead issues would invite more debate...

And therein lies the nut of my experience...

Years ago I had a romance with the 10mm, and had a pair of 10s with polygonal rifling-- a Glock 20 and a Springfield Omega. The Omega never showed sign of leading, and I never had an experience with excessive pressures.

The Glock never had a leading problem either, but it did have an annoying tendency to show pressure signs. What I observed was this-- The Glock did not have a leade worth mentioning. As a result, lead would build up behind the chamber ledge, presumably because the lack of a leade was causing the chember ledge to shave lead off the bullet. SWCs were particularly problematic in this respect. A partial solution to this was to use brands of brass that were thicker at the case mouth. But that caused other problems with failures to go fully into battery because the seated bullet --sized .001-.002" over "groove" diameter, or .404" sized diameter)-- caused an excessive finished diameter of the loaded round, and as a result, would sometimes not chamber fully.

As the Omega did not have such problems, I sold the Glock, and the Omega went on to a stellar career at my weekly pin matches. With no difficulties whatsoever...

I've since experienced the same problem I had with the Glock in a couple of 1911 45s with conventional rifling. So my conclusion is this-- the problem with Glocks & cast bullets has nothing to do with polygonal rifling, and everything to do with how they cut --or don't cut-- chamber throats.

[MakeMineA10mm]

To mention the hammer forged barrels and notoriously short or non existent throats of the Gaston wonder vs the nice long throats of the Martini rifles with Metford rifling and no lead issues would invite more debate right Mic?

Not that I am poking the swarm with a stick. lol

Yes... :mrgreen: And, then there's Sir Joseph Whitworth... He's the guy who paved the way for the Metford, and invented polygonal rifling. There's a great article on him and those developments in Rifle #205, and they're subtitle is outstanding: "The Man Who Invented Accuracy!"


And therein lies the nut of my experience...

Years ago I had a romance with the 10mm, and had a pair of 10s with polygonal rifling-- a Glock 20 and a Springfield Omega. The Omega never showed sign of leading, and I never had an experience with excessive pressures.

The Glock never had a leading problem either, but it did have an annoying tendency to show pressure signs. What I observed was this-- The Glock did not have a leade worth mentioning. As a result, lead would build up behind the chamber ledge, presumably because the lack of a leade was causing the chember ledge to shave lead off the bullet. SWCs were particularly problematic in this respect. A partial solution to this was to use brands of brass that were thicker at the case mouth. But that caused other problems with failures to go fully into battery because the seated bullet --sized .001-.002" over "groove" diameter, or .404" sized diameter)-- caused an excessive finished diameter of the loaded round, and as a result, would sometimes not chamber fully.

As the Omega did not have such problems, I sold the Glock, and the Omega went on to a stellar career at my weekly pin matches. With no difficulties whatsoever...

I've since experienced the same problem I had with the Glock in a couple of 1911 45s with conventional rifling. So my conclusion is this-- the problem with Glocks & cast bullets has nothing to do with polygonal rifling, and everything to do with how they cut --or don't cut-- chamber throats.

SuperMag, you don't mention what your pressure signs were, and I'm not discounting the abrupt throating in the Glock chamber, but keep in mind that Glocks have really sloppy chambers to encourage reliability in feeding. Those loose chambers often prevent the 10mm from getting to it's full potential in the Glock.




Since the 10mm is featuring so prominently in this discussion, I'll throw in to the mix an even more interesting twist (please pardon the pun). What about other strange rifling patterns causing problems with lead bullets, such as the rifling in the original 10mm, the Bren Ten? It had semi-custom barrels with Obermeyer "R5" rifling. This is more like conventional rifling than polygonal, but the edges of the lands were tapered at an angle so as to improve the seal through less deformation of the bullet and eliminating the deep corners of the grooves where, theoretically, the bullets do not fill in, even if they are obturating... [smilie=1:

[45nut]

Mic, my experience with the Glock 19 I bought about 1985 or so was vastly opposite of the sloppy chamber you speak of, indeed it was very tightly chambered and often would refuse reloaded ammo that my TA-90 ,a CZ-75 clone would eat with relish and mustard and onions.

The Glock simply put was not a gun I had any faith in unless and if I only fed it factory ammo.
I on the other hand was not rich enough to feed that gun, nor any other a diet of only factory ammo, often buying it only for the brass when I stumbled upon a buy or for the Massad Ayoob approved carry mode I bought into at the time.
I simply could not afford to keep the 19 so it went down the road, the TA-90 followed not long after by the way when the extractor broke and a replacement was nigh impossible to get. I lost faith in it.

The Glock also had a tendency for me to point high, it took a great deal of thought and worked against instinct to get center mass hits.

But, the reason it went down the road was purely me being frugal and interested in reloading ammo for my gun that would feed and fire, the chamber of that Glock simply would not accept freely and that drove me from it. I was not interested in a gun that demanded factory ammo when I knew there were designs out there that were much more user friendly.

Sloppy chambered was certainly not a apt description of that gun.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Hiya Ken. We may be arguing over semantics, or this may be a case of "there's no perfect gun manufacturer."


When I say they generally have a sloppy chamber, that accounts to the back end of the chamber, say from where the end of the neck is back to the case head, ESPECIALLY over the feed ramp, but also around the entire circumference of the rear end of the chamber. This is what causes "smiley faces" on cases due to high-end pressure, or even blow-outs from over-pressure rounds. (See pics below.) And, this is what prevents Glock 10mms from being loaded to their full potential with the factory barrel. Fully-supported or more-supported aftermarket barrels can allow the Glock to shoot the same hot ammo as any other 10mm pistol.

Near the front of the case, certainly somewhere around where the bullet is being held onto, the chamber does tighten up. This partially accounts for the good accuracy of the Glock. Once the slide is in-battery, the front end of the loaded round is aligned pretty straight with the bore, thanks to the front end of the chamber and the positioning of the breachface in the slide.

So, the question always comes down to what part of the chamber was causing the problem?

I've had one particular pistol (Walther P88C) that has such a short and abrupt throat that it won't feed any factory ammo at all, and will only feed the nose-profile of the Saeco #115 (123gr Pointed RN) cast bullet. In other words, it was the abrupt (or even absense of) the leade that prevented any kind of bullet that was too wide out front of the case mouth from letting the slide close. (I've thought hard many times about opening it up, but the damn thing shoots so good that I'm scared of ruining it's accuracy - It will outshoot any other pistol I own and many rifles...)


I truly hated Glocks when they first arrived in the US. They were ugly, square, unrefined-looking (compared to my beloved 1911s with beautiful sculpted curves on the backstrap, on the bottom of the slide, the trigger guard, and the top profile of the slide...) and worst of all CHEAP! I begrugingly started to look at them after Miami PD threw them out of helicopters, drove over them with trucks, soaked them in buckets of saltwater for days, and other abuses, and they dang things not only kept working, but shot accurately.

I did my own testing of that first Glock 9mm I talked about previously. I acquired it in a trade from a police buddy who needed a Beretta. (I had an extra...) He had just gone through the academy with it as well as some other firearms classes and it had at least fired 4000 rounds in the previous 6 months to my owning it. I then put it through 5500+ rounds of lead-bullet reloads (mostly - there was probably 100-150 jacketed loads fired during this period) without any cleaning and with intermittent "tests" (such as throwing it against the railroad tie backstop at the range from the 25 yard line, and then function-firing it with a whole magazine). After 8 months of my torture and a total of around 10,000 rounds through it in 14 months, I was convinced.

Since then, I've trusted and depended on Glocks for the last 16 years on duty, and I've had very limited problems with them. BUT, Glock is no more perfect than any other gun company. I'm not a mindless Glock-robot. Matter of fact, I've gotten that new HK-45, and when I get it rolling like Iwant (LEM trigger and a proper holster), I'm going to switch to HK for my duty pistol. Glock will certainly have a lemon go through now and then. Sometimes they have a whole series of lemons when they find out some tolerence or specification is off. They have had several recalls, which they won't call recalls. But, the good news is they stand behind their product, even if they have a touchy ego about criticism. Still, a one-off problem chamber, or a whole series of problem chambers that weren't caught in QC, could explain what problem you had with your G-19. Overall, though, Glocks DO have loose chambers.

My chief complaint is that we can't get a definitive answer on WHY some Glocks/poly-rifled guns have problems with lead and some don't. Over on GlockTalk, one of the discussions centered around whether the barrel had been "broke-in" (a.k.a. the internal surface texture had been "smoothed-out" by shooting a few thousand jacketed rounds, before firing lead). This theory interests me, because it would explain my experience.

[schreibwy]

Years ago I had a p9s with a polygon barrel and it shot cast bullets well. There is an article about cast bullets through a polygon barrel in an old Wolfe Publication, "Bullet Making Annual: Special Edition."

My own Glock 36 has spit close to a 1000 cast bullets. Leading is present but it doesn't effect the accuracy much. I was told by a Glock amourer that Glocks can fire while slightly out of battery. The company things that lube fowling will exaccerbate the problem and lead to a situation where a case rupture can occur, so warn against cast bullet use.

I clean the pistol often to eliminate this problem, and when I an using Lee Liquid Alox Lubed bullets I wipe the loaded ammo and clean off the excess lube.

PS - it shoots great with as cast bullets.

[Four Fingers of Death]

We had a number of Glock Kbs in the 40 Cal at work. The Department's armourer is a friend of mine and he felt that leading was not a problem as they once had a Kb on the first magazine fired through one of the guns. he felt that the pistol could fire while it was slightly out of battery. This combined with what he called a 'generous' chamber that wasn't very well supported and reloaded brass all combined in a negative manner occasionally. I don't know why they didn't spring for aftermarket Bbls for range use with reloads. It was hard to figure though. His personal gun had a few hundred rounds (reloads with commercial cast bullets) fired through it every day for many years. He never cleaned it much, only when the powder residue was approaching stalagmite/stalagtite stage, yet never had a problem (with that particular gun).

My experience is limited to 9mms in Glocks and they are apparently fine as there is plenty of support. I liked my Glock 26 better than the Beretta 92FS that replaced it, but not as much as my 1911 38 Super. I have been considering replacing the 92FS with one of those sexy looking frog green Army dude GeeLoks, but most of my shooting is cowboy and bullseye these days, so my desire is tempered somewhat.

[trickyasafox]

I shoot a fair bit of lead in my g23- not nearly as much as you guys though. I get a decent amount of leading, but I'm using factory cast that really I don't think are a good fit for my gun

[9.3X62AL]

Good discussion all around, here.

I share MM10's view that Glock does the shooting community no favors with their "state secret" stance on cast boolit/reloaded ammo question. I own exactly one (1) Glock pistol, and another example of that make is not a likely acquisition due to the maker's kabuki theater approach to owner/operator safety information. A few years back, I was permanently pyzzed off by a factory rep's arrogance and conduct when asked direct questions about the kB issue on 40 S&W pistols. I wasn't the only one unimpressed by the company's attitude--the bean counters balked on a sale of ~2500 units that was practically a "done deal" until the shotcallers were exposed to Mr. Gaston Personality.

Are boolits a good idea in a stock Glock barrel? I don't know, really--the 45 ACP seems OK so far, and it has an octagonal form as opposed to the other calibers' hexagonal form. An aftermarket barrel would likely be a good idea, but a more likely scenario would be an initial purchase of a pistol/revolver/rifle that was lead-friendly to begin with.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I suppose when the Glocks came out there wasn't any immediate rivals, but now there are lots of god guns available as options to the Glocks. There is something about the big boxy gun though that gets you in.

[Redleg99]

A couple of years ago 9.3X62AL wrote a great thread detailing his experiences with cast boolits in his Glock 21.

For those who are interested, here it is:
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=11562

[9.3X62AL]

Thanks for moving that forward, Redleg--hope it helps someone out.

I'm still blasting away with that Glock from time to time, kinda big for CCW but it rides in a UM-84 Bianchi flap holster as my truck gun much of the time. There is maybe 3500 rounds through it now, nearly all castings, and it just runs like a new computer for me. Zero leading. EVER.

If I were to own a Glock 9mm, 40 Short & Weak, or 10mm--I would likely go the route of an aftermarket barrel, because all three of those calibers are decidedly less lead-friendly than the 45 ACP, regardless of platform or bore form.

Glock isn't the only make in these calibers that can benefit from an after-market barrel, either--that 1-10" or 4 turns/meter rifling pitch in many 9mm and 40 S&W barrels is twice as fast as what is needed to stabilize the squatty bullets fired in these calibers. Both closer tolerances in chamber dimensions and the slowed twist rate can yield positive results in these calibers. My CZ-75B in 40 S&W has a 1-16" pitch, and is by some margin the most accurate 40 S&W I've ever fired--cast or jacketed.

[largecaliberman]

I have a glock 34 and have used cast boolits and shot THOUSANDS of rounds. Like any firearm when shooting cast, you have to check now and then for leading. The type of boolit I shoot is straight linotype, using a Lee 125g TC and lubbed with Jakes Ceresin and loaded with 4.9 of Bullseye. Jakes Ceresin puts out a little more of smoke but I would rather deal with the smoke than the lead. I usually check my barrel every 100 rounds and found that leading is very very minimal.

[AnthonyB]

This isn't really a lead in Glock update, but a Glock failure update. My new G30SF broke the locking block during the second range session today. The load was Lee custom 45BDCM over six grains Unique, and the offending round clocked 775fps over the chronograph. I don't think lead had anything to do with the probelm; the barrel wiped clean with one patch of ER. I think this was a poor casting taht failed in the first 500 rounds. I'll call Glock tomorrow to ask about a replacement locking block and pin. Tony

[ddeaton]

I am shooting lead in both 45 and 9mm in my Glocks. I have aftermarket barrels in both. Seems to me that a $100 is cheap insurance.

[cowboy]

Howdy- Have multiple Glocks ( 1911's, too ). Have read of severe and rapid escalation of measured pressures in Glocks firing lead bullets, without visible "leading" as observable in conventionally rifled barrels. It was noted that IF the barrel was kept clean, their probably would not be a kb story to tell. Heat treatment ( or possilbly lack of same) of Glock barrels was mentioned.
Not being highly ( or even moderately) curious in this, I have stuck to jacketed stuff in my Glocks, but.....
Who's aftermarket barrels do you (who have changed them out) like? Know there are at least several to choose from, and cost varies accordingly.
Thanks!

LOTS of related info on The Gun Zone website, though the navigation takes some getting used to, at least for a dinosaur like me.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Hi Cowboy. First off, I'd take EVERYTHING one reads about Glocks, and especially kaBOOMs, at The Gun Zone with a HUGE grain of salt. The guy that invented the term "kaBOOM" runs that site. He's not what I would call an objective source of information.

Glocks barrels, slides, and large/major/non-stamped other metal parts are treated with what Glock calls "tennifer." This is called Melonite in the US and is a heat-treating process that creates a super-hard surface with a softer center, thereby giving all the resilience that one could want in metal. (Kind-of like the samurai-sword: it's surface is hard to resist abrasion and other damage, but it's core is softer to prevent the overall product from being brittle.) The factory reps sharpen class members pocket knives during the Armorer's Course with the broad, flat surface of the top of the slide. (Put a fairly nice edge on mine... :mrgreen: )

As far as aftermarket barrels, the two high-end ones are Bar-Sto and Jarvis. Great barrels in terms of quality and accuracy. Both will hand-fit the barrel if you send them the gun. Prices are pretty high, around $200.

You can go all the way down to $75-80 bbls, but I don't know if I'd trust my life to them... Rather stick with the factory barrel and clean it once in awhile...

KKM and Lone Wolf have the middle-of-the-road barrels. Around $100, decent quality (but not as good as Jarvis or Bar-Sto), and they're almost always a drop-in fit. These are what most people choose, I believe.

BTW, Glock factory prices for new barrels is around $135, depending on model.

I've also written some articles on Glocks and cast boolits and kaBOOMs, as well as having "opposing position" papers posted by my friend markCO (from GlockTalk). These can be found here: (kaBOOMs) http://www.glockfaq.com/reloading.htm#kb and here: (lead boolits) http://www.glockfaq.com/reloading.htm#lead

[cowboy]

Howdy-
Geez whiz, an owner of no fewer than 5 Glocks comments on what he's read, and gets the equivalent of chewed out for not just saying, " never had trouble with mine" The reason I don't used cast in my Glocks is simple- I have too little trust in stuff not recommended by researchers OTHER THAN THE MAKER. If not even THEY can agree, DON'T DO IT.
As for the "guy who invented the kB" running that website, well, someone has to. It's not like he's a member of the Brady bunch.
Might buy a barrel of other than Glock manufacture for one of my 21's, if my 1911's both suddenly disappoint me accuracy-wise, though I don't see that happening. Now, IF it became a cast your own only world, then I'd need to reconsider, like yesterday, and at great expense.

[Silicon Wolverine]

i have a Gen3 G17 thats pushing 20,000 rounds. about 90% have been cast. the key to me is a bullet thats hard enough. of teh shelf commercial bullets ARE NOT hard enough to shoot out of a glock. I shoot either pure lino or hardball in mine with ZERO problems related to the bullets. i did have a run if cast loads in bad brass that left me with some bizzarely shaped cases and one ruptured case (simply reloaded and kept shooting, no damage at all). i currently run it and a G20 with cast both with no problems.

FWIW ive seen a couple glock KBooms (one in person and one aftermath) both were 40 cals using handloaded ammo. the biggest problem with the 40 is glock made it fit in the 9mm frame instead of deisgning a deidcated frame like they did with the 10mm guns. they shaved a bit here and a bit there to make it fit. Not a good idea in my book.

SW

[Willbird]

i have a Gen3 G17 thats pushing 20,000 rounds. about 90% have been cast. the key to me is a bullet thats hard enough. of teh shelf commercial bullets ARE NOT hard enough to shoot out of a glock. I shoot either pure lino or hardball in mine with ZERO problems related to the bullets. i did have a run if cast loads in bad brass that left me with some bizzarely shaped cases and one ruptured case (simply reloaded and kept shooting, no damage at all). i currently run it and a G20 with cast both with no problems.

FWIW ive seen a couple glock KBooms (one in person and one aftermath) both were 40 cals using handloaded ammo. the biggest problem with the 40 is glock made it fit in the 9mm frame instead of deisgning a deidcated frame like they did with the 10mm guns. they shaved a bit here and a bit there to make it fit. Not a good idea in my book.

SW


Honestly many of those off the shelf bullets are not suited to ANY high pressure high intensity pistol cartridge, their alloy is too soft, and their lube just plain sucks. Some I tried in 45 acp would lead a Clark 1911 bbl heavily if loaded with more than 4.0 of bullseye.

Bill

[GaryM]

Not a Glock but I have fired a few hundred cast boolits out of my CZ82 ((mm makarov w/polygonal barrel) and have had no leading to speak of.
I use liquid alox, and a hard cast 95gr bullet.

[Cayoot]

Also not a Glock, but my Kahr PM-45 uses the same rifling as a Glock. Kahr does NOT advise against using lead bullets.

I just finished the break-in of the gun as recommended in the manual. I fired 200 rounds, of which 150 were lead (WCWW) 225 RN from a SAECO mould of mine.

I fired all 200 rounds with out cleaning (after the initial cleaning). There is a small amount of leading in the barrel, but nothing to be alarmed about.

[Grapeshot]

Twenty years ago I purchased a new Glock in .40 S&W. I ran 180 gr cast LTC's thru it for a good year. Never had any trouble. Having been a soldier all my adult life I cleaned my glock after every shooting session.

Then I read an article in one of the gun magazines about lead build-up in Glock barrels when firing cast lead bullets. This article mentioned a 10,000 round torture test without cleaning the barrel before they ran into pressure problems due to lead build up in the barrel.

My question at the time was, "Who does not clean their barrel/gun before putting it up?"

It had always been drilled into my head that you clean your weapon as soon as posible after shooting.

I worked in an indoor range for about 15 years and only saw one glock that had a problem. Someone was shooting reloaded ammo and had a jacketed bullet lodge in the barrel and fired another round on top of it. Left a ring and bulge in the barrel that trevented the slide from coming back far enough to pick up the next round in the mag.

I sold cases of lead .40 S&W ammo to Glock shooters during that time span and none of them ever had a problem with accuracy or functioning using lead bullets.

[klcarroll]

My question at the time was, "Who does not clean their barrel/gun before putting it up?"

Absolutely right!!!! .....Never let the sun set on a dirty gun!!!!!!

Kent

[MakeMineA10mm]

Howdy-
Geez whiz, an owner of no fewer than 5 Glocks comments on what he's read, and gets the equivalent of chewed out for not just saying, " never had trouble with mine" The reason I don't used cast in my Glocks is simple- I have too little trust in stuff not recommended by researchers OTHER THAN THE MAKER. If not even THEY can agree, DON'T DO IT.
As for the "guy who invented the kB" running that website, well, someone has to. It's not like he's a member of the Brady bunch.
Might buy a barrel of other than Glock manufacture for one of my 21's, if my 1911's both suddenly disappoint me accuracy-wise, though I don't see that happening. Now, IF it became a cast your own only world, then I'd need to reconsider, like yesterday, and at great expense.

Hi cowboy. I hope you don't think I was chewing you out (but it looks like you do, since mine was the only post after yours...). All I said was watch out for the guy that runs the Gun Zone, and then went into answering your questions. I certainly don't mind you having an opinion, any more or less than anyone else (including me). As an objective investigator of this issue, I figured you, or others following along, should be aware of that website-author's bias. That's all.

My experiences do disagree with the anti-lead camp, but I'm open-minded and eager to listen and learn, if it's quality information that is scientific. The info at the Gun Zone is a lot like the Marshal and Sanow "study" of ballistics. A survey of events is actually just a series of anecdotes and without the scientific method sorting out things one variable at a time, it doesn't meet my criteria of proof. If someone can show me absolute proof that lead is bad in poly-rifling, I'd accept it and go with jacketed 100% of the time. Absent that, my personal experience (again not scientifically valid) is that lead is safe...


For the general discussion:

One of the interesting things about lead-bulleted ammo, is that the vast majority of it is handloaded. I know that a significant amount of catastrophic failures in pistols are connected to handloading mistakes or hot-rodding (vs. any issue about what material the bullet is made from). Wonder if there's a correlation here?

We all know that with conventionally-rifled barrels there is variations in quality of finish between rough and smooth barrels. I wonder if there is some variation of "rough-bore" vs. "smooth-bore" in the hammer-forging process of the Glock barrels? (With the rougher ones having serious problems with leading while the smooth ones do not?)


.

[revolver junkie]

i had a glock 17 and i have to say that except for my own ignorance in not paying attention to a squib load the factory barrel was just fine an actualy held up quite well until that squib bulged the barrel i cant say that about any of the replacement barrels execpt for the wilson combat.

one note is that it did seem to not group very well and hitting anything past 25 yards was iffy. but the wilson combat barrel shot much tighter. although i didn't play around with diffent powder or bullets

[azcoyhunter]

I own a Glock 30, I shoot cast for it all the time, no problems noted.

I might have shot 1000 all told through it, and very little leading, I use LLA, and shoot as cast from the Lee 200 TL mould.

I have now graduated up to a Ruger Alaskan, but SWMBO uses it now....

I am happy with cast in a Glock, a lot cheaper, and i get the home made feeling.....

[snuffy]

I posted this on TFL, edited it to put here after a copy and paste. I'll follow this with another post with the results.

I'm sick and tired of HEARING the hogwash about no lead in factory glock barrels. Also as a kind of SHTF readiness, I just bought a 6 cav lee mold for a 175 grain lead boolit. It's the lee 175 TC. I cast 3-400 Sunday. they're "drying" the lee liquid allox right now. later today, I loaded some using WW 231. I'm going to keep a critical eye on lead build-up inside the barrel. My glock M-22 is at least 10 Y.O. and has thousands of jacketed and plated bullets through it.

I did a hardness test using the lee tester. 12.5 BHN! That's fine for this application. If they lead too much, I'll cast them from a harder alloy.

It's all about doing hard cast boolits for glocks. AND most importantly keeping an eye open for leading as it occurs, or doesn't occur. Then being darn careful with regular cleaning.

They will be shot unsized,(they're running .402-.403). IF they can be loaded that big and still pass my cartridge case gauge. Otherwise, I'll get a lee sizer for .400.

[snuffy]

Just got home from the range! It was raining, windy and 36 degrees, so my shooting was INDOORS, BRRRR! My club has a 10 position 50 ft HEATED indoor range. I sat down, using a rest to shoot from.

Now for the results; First load was 4.8 WW-231. I thoroughly cleaned the barrel before leaving home. I shot 5, then took a look down the tube. Normal fouling. The group was only okay, nothing to crow about! Couldn't keep them all in the black of a 50 ft. NRA slow fire target. Next came the 17 I had left of the 4.8 charge, they went into a group of around 5". My glock will keep all shots inside the 3" bull with plated or jacketed ammo.

Then came the 5.0 load, it went into a 2.5 inch group,(5 shots). Fired shells showed no sign of pressure. Another look down the BBL. showed no signs of lead build up, EXCEPT a little just in front of the chamber.

Now for the 5.4 load, with 2 flyers THAT WERE KEYHOLED, over 7"! Now the leading had progressed half way down the barrel.

Next the top load of 5.7. Over 8" with two flyers were classic, complete, keyholes! Now the barrel is leaded all the way to the muzzle. Not heavily leaded, but a light smear all along the thrust side of the rifling band. Also, one empty shell showed a slight guppy belly just ahead of the extractor groove. I now have 5 shells to pull apart.

What did I learn? 1, the alloy I used is way too soft. A link on this thread was to another thread where someone said the BHN should be around 18 for lead in glocks. Okay I can do that! 2, ww-231 is too fast for this lead boolit. I want case life from my reloads, the top load showed high pressure, I would have to retire too many cases. 3, if I would have continued to shoot all but the first 2 loads, I would have enough lead build up to cause higher pressures. All of this can and will be solved with a harder,(18 BHN), alloy.

[rbuck351]

I have used three glocks with lead. A 21 that will shoot any amount of 452 boolits of most any hardness without leading. The two 22s I used leaded so badly using wcww at .401 that in less than one magazine full the boolits were hitting sideways at 10 yds. I don't know why and as the 22s weren't mine I didn't bother to find out.

[snuffy]

I mixed up a harder alloy. I thought it would be hard enough. Uh-huh, add this one to the best laid plans of mice and men! The original alloy consists of lino 3# to 17# of nearly pure lead,(it contains perhaps 1% tin). The new mix was 14# lino to 4# of the nearly pure counterweight metal. Cast last night, this morning they test at 14.5 BHN.

I gave them a bath in LLA, then tried something new. I put them in the oven @ 170 degrees. An hour later they were dry! Well, as dry as LLA ever gets!:roll: I'll load some more at the same levels a the last test groups.

I'm going to try to water drop some of those to see if I can up the BHN some.?

[snuffy]

I loaded some last night to try today at the 5.0 ww-231 level, and a few at 5.7. The 5.0 load grouped better than the first bunch. No leading at all! Then I shot the 5.7 loads, this time no keyholes but the group was 3x the 5.0 group. Also the hotter load shows some leading, same as before.

Okay, I have a decent load for plinking. Once the weather turns to spring, the range road opens up, I'll go do a torture test. I'm going to load 2 -3 hundred of these, shoot 50 at a time while checking the barrel for lead build up. Won't be for a couple of weeks, but I'll report back on this thread when it's done.

Oh, I water dropped some more I cast last night. Cold as the water comes from the tap. NO DIFFERENCE! Compared to air cooled, same alloy. Do I need to add some shot to get some arsenic in the alloy?

[StarMetal]

If you let those bullets age they'll get much much harder. You're shooting them too soon. I know how that is am I'm anxious to shoot right away too.

Joe

[snuffy]

If you cant use real bullets in a Glock, can you use it as a water pistol? Should work, all the water pistols I ever saw were plastic.

Your sarcasm is noted, since you didn't have a smiley to make me think you were saying that with humor. If you don't want/like a glock, then don't buy one!:mad:


If you let those bullets age they'll get much much harder. You're shooting them too soon. I know how that is am I'm anxious to shoot right away too.

Joe, I know they will age harden. In fact I'm counting on it. Since it will be a couple weeks before I can torture test these,(muddy season closes the range road until it dries), they will have a chance to harden. I'll load a couple hundred, then do a box, then check the barrel.

[Roundball]

I have generally not fired lead bullets in my Glocks. However, looks like we are in a survival mode so some some experiments were done. My G21 ran well on the 200 gr. lead SWC's-Lyman 452460. There was some leading. Glocks, HK's Sig's and a S&W were in this mini test. The S&W 4566 was to worst. The Glock 30 would not run with these loads-FTF. The HK's and Sig did best. The G21 cleaned up quickly and appears to be usable with lead bullets as a last resort. Accuracy was much better with jacket bullets in the G21. Basically, none of these guns were designed with lead bullets in mind. I have been told on good authority that shooting lead bullets in a Glock is risky business. The day may be coming when we may have no other option.

[Jeff.L]

Maybe 5 had ayears ago glock 23 in 40 cal. back of case blow out . Blew the Mag out of the gun and to pieces. broke the extractor. Had powder burns on my hands Scared the living Hoo out of me... Very lucky I did not get hurt. :-o

[sleeper1428]

I've had my Glock 20 for 20+ years and have put virtually thousands of rounds of lead through the stock barrel without a single problem, including leading. Same holds true for my Glock 22 which I've had for over 15 years and have shot virtually only lead through during that time. I clean after every 200 rounds or at the end of each session, whichever comes first, my boolits are cast with an alloy of my own making that is very close to Taracorp's Magnum Alloy (2/6/92) and tests at about 14 BHN, sized .401 and lubed with the NRA formula 50/50 which I get from White Label Lubes.

Having said this, I recently purchased Lone Wolf barrels for both of my Glocks, expecting that the tighter cut chambers and broach cut barrels would make a noticeable difference in accuracy. While these new barrels are definitely tighter in chamber dimensions and do a much better job of supporting the full cartridge case, I really haven't noticed any increased accuracy but that may just be due to my 71 y.o. eyesight causing the problem.

Anyway, my conclusion is that the problems that some Glock owners have had in using lead in their factory barrels may well be due to lack of a proper cleaning schedule and/or 'pushing the envelope' when it comes to loads. With extremely high pressure loads you will indeed 'Glock' your brass which will eventually weaken that portion of the case, especially if successive reloads continue to put undue stress on the 'Glocked' case areas. If this practice is continued long enough, it's only asking for a 'Kaboom' to happen!!

sleeper1428

[StarMetal]

Maybe 5 had ayears ago glock 23 in 40 cal. back of case blow out . Blew the Mag out of the gun and to pieces. broke the extractor. Had powder burns on my hands Scared the living Hoo out of me... Very lucky I did not get hurt. :-o

Jeff,

How did you get powder burns on both hands? Did the Glock's grip crack?

Joe

[Lloyd Smale]

[QUOTE=snuffy;530565]Your sarcasm is noted, since you didn't have a smiley to make me think you were saying that with humor. If you don't want/like a glock, then don't buy one!:mad:


Sound advise that ill surely take :)

[Jeff.L]

Jeff,

How did you get powder burns on both hands? Did the Glock's grip crack?

Joe

Joe
had powder blow out around trigger gard and mag relese button..
Grips did not crack ... Jeff

[StarMetal]

Joe
had powder blow out around trigger gard and mag relese button..
Grips did not crack ... Jeff

That explains it, glad you didn't get hurt and the grips didn't crack.

Joe

[Legion489]

At my gun club I have seen at least three Glocks blow up. TOTAL destroyed the guns! I was standing behind one shooter scoring him when his Glock blew up. Can it be done? Sure? SHOULD it be done? That is another question I can't answer for you.

[sundog]

3X, huh? Any injuries? Stout guns should help contain mishaps. I've seen a few oddities with 1911s, including one of my own, and no injuries.

[redneckdan]

I've seen a glock in .45 ACP blow up. Shooter was using a Dillon 550, was having trouble with it not operating correctly. Ended up with some heavily charged loads. Whether the glock or the dillon is the problem I can't be sure. I can say that they come apart in a heckuva hurry.

[Marlin Hunter]

I had a Glock 17, but it got stolen. I do not remember it having polygonal rifling. I think it had the standard square rifling. I got a letter from Glock about a year after it was stolen stating that there was a safety problem with the trigger. Some police officers were shooting themselves in the foot while holstering their Glocks. [I hope the guy who stole my Glock shot himself in the foot.] I never shot lead out of it because jacketed bullets were only a few pennies more than lead and it wasn't worth it. I sized a .358 125 gr semi-jacketed hollowpoint down to fit in the Glock 17 and had no problems. I only shot lead bullets out of my 357 or 22LR.

[exile]

I have a Jarvis barrel for my Glock 17 and a Storm Lake barrel for my Glock 26. I am a real Glock fan so I don't want to take a chance with leading. Never shot lead through any of my factory Glock barrels yet. Chamber support seems fine on factory Glock barrels in 9 mm. and .357 Sig, but my 40 S & W cases come out with a pronounced bulge near the case head, so I think that would be another reason not to use a factory barrel in .40 S & W. Just my 2 cents worth.

exile

[snuffy]

'bout time I do a follow-up to my post #52.

I haven't had time to do a lot of shooting this year. But I did shoot a bunch of the a fore mentioned 5.0 231 loads with the 14.5 BHN boolits. I haven't tested the hardness again, but I'd bet the BHN has gone up since they were cast.

Any way, I've shot around 200 rounds using only the cast 175 TC lee boolit at targets on the 25 yard range. All manner of shooting, slow aimed off-hand at a steel swinger target of mine, paper targets, and clay birds on a MTM target stand. I even put up a silhouette, played rattle battle, or bill drills, where you shoot as fast as you can safely.

RESULTS? I'd shoot a box of 50, pull the barrel to take a look-see at the sky. Minimal leading! While I did have a cleaning kit along, I didn't bother to run a patch through the barrel. The leading/fouling DID NOT INCREASE, just stayed about the same. After the range session, I cleaned first with a solvent soaked patch. There was almost no metallic lead on that first patch, that after more than 200 lead boolits through it. The bore was then shiny and appeared to be clean. I'm wondering if what I thought was leading was just residual lube smeared on the bore.

I'm satisfied with this load, I have a thousand cast up, and 500 loaded. I'm still gonna keep an eye on the leading scenario, never can be to diligent.

[Sonoma2k2]

i own the G32 .357sig and have shot a few hundred rounds of commerical cast from hunter's supply. I used 7.8gr of unique. the pistol handled well and functioned without any cause for alarm.

i have thought about getting another barrel for it just for shooting cast, and also another barrel for my g19. i love my glocks and want to take care of them the best i can and if i need substitute barrels then i'll just do it and keep on keeping on.

[Roundball]

The rifling form in Martini BP rifles was that of Henry not Medford. Due to the temporary lack of j.......d bullets experiments were done with lead bullet using Lyman 452374 and Lyman 401043 molds. The latter included regular RN bullets and wonderfully converted HP mold by Erik. The .40’s were shot in a G27, SIG229 and HK USPc. No lead. The .45 bullets were fired in two HK's. No lead. These bullets were also fired in a G36, G30 and G21 with no lead. These bullets were from WW alloy using 50:50 Lube and Unique powder-still searching for loads. The accuracy, at the worst, was usable. It is still a work in progress. This experiment is in its early stages having only fired two hundred and fifty rounds in the past several weeks. Back in the day when problems were first attributed to cast bullets those guns were wrecked as if there was a double charge of a fast powder.

[Vstrom]

I own a Glock 35 I replaced the barrel with a Lone Wolf barrel, it shoots as well as the Glock barrel with cast boolits. I have put many hundreds of rounds trough both barrels. The reason I changed was the uncertainty every time I pulled the trigger. I’m not really as enamored with the Glock any more; I like my Springfield XDM .40 better and may trade the Glock in for a .45 of some type.

[50 Caliber]

We have 2 Glocks, 1 is a highly modified G20 10mm with KKM barrel and 4 port comp, I do shoot lead bullets and read all the posts at other forums and decided when I wanted to make the G20 10mm into a deer hunting gun I would forgo any BS and order the KKM barrel and comp. Have had "0" issues with leading with this barrel. But as others have said here, the key to reduceing or eliminating leading in any fire arm is slugging your barrel and sizeing bullets accordingly. Along with makeing your aloy the right hardness as well. That is time consumeing though, but a very nessecary evil in order to make the correctly sized bullets shoot very well.
My Wife also has a G22 in 40 S&W with a Wolff barrel and she shoots my home cast bullets with "0" issues as well.
Thats my 2 bits on that subject.

[johnlaw484]

Why would anyone even want a Glock???

[50 Caliber]

Why would anyone even want a Glock???

I said the same thing along time ago. Then some one put a Glock 22 40 S&W in my hand and I shot it. Now we own a few and I wont part with them.:mrgreen:

[Old Caster]

It is quite possible that lead has nothing to do with KB's at all other than it is easier to push a lead bullet back in the case if proper crimping or sizing is not followed. If a Glock has a tendency to push the bullet back into the case while chambering and still going to battery and the load is hot, abnormal pressures will cause drastic problems especially since .40's are marginal anyway. A good half or more Kb's probably happen from double charges because people blow up all kinds of guns all of the time and it is never their fault plus people love to run with disaster stories.

[9.3X62AL]

Having re-Glocked myself recently with a 40 S&W caliber Model 23, I've run it a few times since bringing it home 9 days ago, and 2/3 of the 300 rounds I've fired have been castings, through a Storm Lake after-market barrel. The second sequence with castings left a bit of leading in the bore, this in the SL barrel. It is brand-new, so is largely unseasoned with oils/solvents and has yet to have any jacketed bullets run through it. I generally run 100-300 j-words through any barrel before trying castings, and should have done so. I'll correct that oversight before any more castings get run down that tube. A bit of Chore Boy on a played-out bore brush with Hoppe's removed all the deposits easily.

I may give the OEM barrel a try with the castings as well. I ran 100 j-words through it already, and it had some shooting with the redcoats prior to my purchase, based on the now-cleaned copper sheen inside the bore at time of purchase. Both barrels are VERY smoothly-finished internally, as-found.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Like I said earlier, I'm sure the Kbs have nothing to do with leading. We had a new gun at work Kb on the first mag. I think it has more to do with the 40+cals lack of support in the chamber area which results in swelling of fired cases at the base, which occasionally prevents the gun returning to battery and the Glocks ability to fire when slightlyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy out of battery. Thats what we found at work (when I was there, which I'm not now :D :D :D :D).

[zardoz]

I've been considering a Glock, in the 10mm flavor for a while now. Just wish there were more of a selection in that arena.

Does this exhibit the same unsupported cartridge base area, as the 40 S&W?

Would like to shoot some cast from one as well if I go that route. I see Lone Wolf has the aftermarket barrel for that as well.

[TriggerHappyAndy]

I cast Lee 120gr TC bullets for a friend who has a glock 17. Last year he put about 6000 rounds through it. It never fails. We shoot IPSC and 25 meter precision. He has shot lots of 49:s but not any 50:s yet. With his glock and my cast boolits he is the third best shooter at the club. Not bad considering that many of the others has sig neuhausen and similar precision pistols.

[slickrock]

ok you guys that have them what kind of groups do you get at 25yds AND try to be honest. I have shot 4 different guns and none will shoot with a colt or kimber and even a 220 sig will out shoot them rick


new user here but old hand with glocks, and I don't like them either, but now you're talking two different things.

will a cast work in a glock? yepper. never had a problem and no one i know has ever had a problem,

but shotman, now you're throwing in accuracy. well, for my life, I carry a glock 21. period, accuracy doesn't mean jack when the gun wont go bang, FTE, FTF, these things are unheard of in glocks, if the magazine is not full of wet clay, it will feed and fire everytime.

everytime.

Minute of bad guy accuracy . with cast boolits.

if you like carrying a gun and wearing something that makes folks say, oh, wow, can I see that. that's one thing, if your life depends on it, and that's a stretch for 99.9% fo the people in the USA, but if your life truly depends on it, you'll find those folks carrying a glock.

and , as I say I don't like them, not one bit but it goes bang every time. Every time.

[MakeMineA10mm]

I've been considering a Glock, in the 10mm flavor for a while now. Just wish there were more of a selection in that arena.

Does this exhibit the same unsupported cartridge base area, as the 40 S&W?

Would like to shoot some cast from one as well if I go that route. I see Lone Wolf has the aftermarket barrel for that as well.

Yep. All factory Glock barrels, including the ones in the guns "designed" for competition (G-34 & G-35) have chambers which are rather loose at the back end and tight at the front end. Glock does this because it makes the guns feed reliably (thanks to the generous-sized rear end) while still shooting accurately (the tight throat and front part of the chamber). The Glock was designed for police and military, who fire factory ammo almost exclusively, and where reliability is paramount. They apply this philosophy to all of their models.

If you want to maximize the 10mm in the Glock, you need to get a "fully-supported" (not really, but they're a LOT better than factory), aftermarket barrel, and considering those circumstances, you might as well get the traditional rifling, so cast boolits are not an issue.

For extensive information and research on using/loading 10mms, especially Glocks, go to the following two subforums at GlockTalk. (I'm one of the mods at the 10mm Reloading forum there.)

http://glocktalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=38

http://glocktalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=67

The more I think about it, the more logic tells me there's something else at work in the lead=bad in polygonal rifling. I've been thinking about my Glock factory barrels, and they polygonal rifling actually makes for a REALLY smooth interior surface of the barrel. Combine that with the Tennifer (Melonite) finish which surface hardens the steel to up to a milimeter or so in depth, and I can't help but imagine there's something else going on...

[MakeMineA10mm]

ok you guys that have them what kind of groups do you get at 25yds AND try to be honest. I have shot 4 different guns and none will shoot with a colt or kimber and even a 220 sig will out shoot them rick

shot,
I regularly shoot High Master during qualifications with my dept. Scores are 492 or higher (out of 500) on a 50-rd. course with the IL. PTI target. (10-ring is a little smaller than a 3x5 index card.) Of the 50 shots 12 of them are fired from the 25 yard line. To be honest I miss as much at 15 as I do at 25. (Lack of focus on my part, I need to do better...)

Another anecdote - My best friend from High School and my shooting mentor's son who was into guns (imagine how we became friends?) was one of two people whom I respected as a shot good enough to regularly beat me. He has moved away, but came back a few years ago and we went to the range. He had just acquired a nice S&W 745 and I had my Glock 21. (Both 45ACPs.) We went to the back-yard range and started shooting, and it became apparent I was out-shooting him pretty regularly. (We were shooting the same ammo.) We traded guns, and both of us could shoot the Glock 21 better than the 745. I will admit that although all Glocks are pretty accurate, there is something about the 45s that they seem to naturally shoot more accurately. They are the only Glocks with OCTAGONAL rather than HEXAGONAL rifling, so it may be the form of the rifling...

All that said, I'll admit that I ALWAYS shoot revolvers better than autos. Regardless of brand or caliber. (My qualification scores when we carried revolvers was anywhere between 495 & 500 - on average 5-10 points higher than when I shoot any auto.)

Also, I do have some autos that will out-shoot my Glocks, but not by much. My most-accurate auto (and the only one that matches the accuracy of the revolvers) is my Walther P88C. It regularly chews a hole a little larger than a silver dollar at 25 yards with a couple mags of 9mm. My Glocks don't match that, but neither do any of the Kimbers or Colts or Sigs I've got or shot.

Before Glocks existed, I was a 1911 man. (Back then, there were no Kimbers -other than rifles- or any other custom-from-factory 1911s. You shot a Colt or Springfield Armory, and they were pretty much like the commercial or military models that had been made since the 1920s... To get anything like a Kimber you had to pay $2000 to a custom 'smith and turn over your Colt and wait 12 months. Therefore, all of my 1911s are and were military or commercial models without the bells and whistles.) When I started toying with the Glock (and other non-1911 autos) I couldn't shoot them anywhere near as well as a 1911. When I finally decided the Glock had some great qualities and would be what I would switch to when our department went to autos, I started shooting it as religiously as my 1911s and revolvers. It was only after near-daily shooting and dry-firing for 6 months that I adapted to the Glock's trigger pull and started shooting it well. One other thing I changed was the sights. Big, blocky, plastic sights do not work well for me. (They were designed to be quick-pick-up combat sights, but I prefer something with more precision.) I changed them out to a set of Novaks, and that picked up about 15 points on my qualification score.

Glocks are VERY inherently accurate, but they're trigger has a unique feel that DEMANDS getting used to and adapting to, or it's very difficult to shoot them well. But, given the commitment to time and practice, they can be shot as well as any other pistol out to 100-150 yards.

[Four Fingers of Death]

My tiny Glock 26 shot wayyyyyyyyyyyy better than the full size Beretta 92FS that replaced it after the Government confiscated the Glock, don't make sense, but thats the way it was.

I have been seriously thinking about getting back into Glocks, especially since those neato green and sand coloured ones came out :D

[MakeMineA10mm]

Hey Mick! Mic here! ;)

Yeah I forgot to mention above that, the other Glock that shoots accurately waaaaaaay out of proportion to what it SHOULD be capable of, is the G-26. It's my #1 carry piece when I'm in plain clothes or off-duty. I carry a 15-rd G-19 magazine for a reload to the 11-rd mag I keep in it. (A 10-rd mag with a Pierce +1 finger-groove baseplate extension.) 27 rounds in a very compact pistol is not bad at all, and combined with the accuracy and some decent ammo, it's giving up virtually nothing to a larger alternative.

You should definitely think about one. I love their simplicity, reliability, and durability.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I prefer my 5 shot .44 Special Charter Arms Bulldog. It is light, small, reliable and effiecient. With a soft lead HP boolit over 5.5 gr of Unique I trust it with my life as it is my carry gun. With a pair of speedloaders in my right pocket and that revolver on my belt I do not feel undergunned.

As far as having only 5 shots.....I have been in 5 gunfights during the 20 years I carried a gun for the NYCPD and only during one gunfight did I have to shoot more than three shots. That one was a barricaded BG situation and I fired over 40 rounds over a 10 minute period of time until enuf troops arrived to quell the situation.

During my day most cops never carried more than 12 extra rounds on their belts. I carried 4 speedloaders with 6 rounds apiece and a leather magazine case for a double column 9 mm. I had a plastic strip inside the case that covered the front, bottom and rear and I placed another 18 rounds of .38 Spl's over the strip. When I needed to get to the round I would pull up the ends of the strip a mite and take out how many rounds I wanted. It was effiecient, cheap and below the radar.

I also carried a NY Reload on my left ankle. I never had to use it but it was nice to have.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Years of inconvienience carrying all that ammo paid back in one situation. People used to laugh at me when I was at work, hardly anyone carried spare rounds, When I was escorting prisoners I always carried two speedeloaders (my boss wouldn't let me carry any more and I only managed to get him to approve speedloaders as I bull%$itted him about being disabled by being short one finger and having troube. I also carried a 6 round dump pouch (he never said anything about dump pouches :D) on my duty belt and a 50 round box of ammo, along with tools and a small stout cleaning rod (for clearing squibs) in my small pack under the seat.

When I was the security manager/deputy warden of jails, I used to have guns everywhere and gas and gasmasks laid on. The moment I had a problem, I would issue everything and then get on the phone to HQ, requesting a re-sup of gas and ammo (we were 120miles from HQ). I always said, I'd rather have the gear and not need it than have not the gear and need it. As it turned out I never needed it, but there would have been a helluva fireworks show if my negotiating skills didn't carry the day.

I've just picked up a 1911 Norinco, which is surprisingly accurate and another friend who was going to customise his 1911 but didn't gave me a supply of King's (I think) beavertail, trigger, mag funnel, etc, etc. I might get a Glock as well and do a comparo between the three (92FS) and end up with the customised 1911 and the one I prefer out of the 92FS/Glock for military shooting.

[.243 okie]

I'm rather new to this forum but would like to say that the information presented here makes sense. I'm about to start making my own for Glock model 23 .40 cal w/ Wolf barrel because of leading issue with poly rifling. Thanks!

[NickSS]

I have a glock 17 for a number of years and all the ammo I have put through it is cast and sized to 357 as that size shot better than smaller diameter bullets. I have put a couple hundred winchester white box ammo through it but probably 4 or 5 thousand cast ones. I do not get leading but I do clean my gun every time I shoot it. I find that my cast loads shoot as well as the pistol shoots FMJ winchester ammo

[DCM]

I bought a Glock 10mm about 1991 and bought some Federal lead ammo to test fire it with. Well I sure didn't like what I could not see after 50 Rds. of that, just one gooey mess!

I believe it was primarily an ammo problem, but don't really know as I never shot anything other than jacketed out of it after cleaning that mess out.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I bought a Glock 10mm about 1991 and bought some Federal lead ammo to test fire it with. Well I sure didn't like what I could not see after 50 Rds. of that, just one gooey mess!

I believe it was primarily an ammo problem, but don't really know as I never shot anything other than jacketed out of it after cleaning that mess out.


We are only allowed to use our handguns at teh range (apart from a few security guards, etc) and most ranges only allow lead, sooooo most of the Glock usage in Australia is with lead boolits. They forgot to tell us what a problem lead boolits were and we never really noticed that there was a prob.

[DCM]

[QUOTE=Four Fingers of Death;1153165]We are only allowed to use our handguns at teh range (apart from a few security guards, etc) and most ranges only allow lead, sooooo most of the Glock usage in Australia is with lead boolits. They forgot to tell us what a problem lead boolits were and we never really noticed that there was a prob.[/QUOTE

As I said I think it was an issue with the ammo. shortly after I bought that stuff one could not find it anywhere. I think the problem was primarily with the alloy they used, but after the LONG cleaning session I wasn't going to chance it again.

Back then there was no talk of lead or jacketed bullet use issues in the Glocks. I just decided not to do that again.

[Doby45]

I bought a Glock 10mm about 1991 and bought some Federal lead ammo to test fire it with. Well I sure didn't like what I could not see after 50 Rds. of that, just one gooey mess!

10mm is a beast all to itself, much less lead in a poly barrel..

[40sandwfan]

Glad to see this. It's already encouraged me when it comes to shooting out of my glock 23! Thanks for all the great discussion.

[rogsir]

I ran 1000 lead bullets in my glock 22 before i heard of the lead in glock tale, got spooked and got 2 packs with frontier bullets (4000) will run out of them this spring, and i'm going for a mold, is the lee tc 6 banger a good bullet ?

[thegreatdane]

is the lee tc 6 banger a good bullet ?

Yep. It is.

[161]

Years ago I called Glock for another reason. I'm a armorer and asked if I could shoot lead in my Glock. After a few minutes of "Glock will not warranty a gun that has shot reloads". I asked If I can find a factory loaded 40 S&W with cast lead boolits can I shoot them in my gun. He said yes. I shot USPSA and shot 10s of 1000s of lead in my G24. 20,000 in one year. Most were the Lee 170 TL, had no problem with them. And that was back before they lowered the major power factor.
161

[Multigunner]

Honestly many of those off the shelf bullets are not suited to ANY high pressure high intensity pistol cartridge, their alloy is too soft, and their lube just plain sucks. Some I tried in 45 acp would lead a Clark 1911 bbl heavily if loaded with more than 4.0 of bullseye.

Bill
That makes sense. I used to handload for my 38 Revolvers using a store brand semi wadcutter of unknown origin, pre lubed and sized. These worked fine in every revolver I tried them in, but fact is I had no idea what the alloy was or what the lube was, they were dirt cheap and worked okay so I never gave it much thought.

The Polygonal bore may work just fine with a quality hard cast boolit, but be the accident waiting to happen that Glock figured it to be if the boolit were not of a good quality alloy or not properly lubed.

With the loose service chamber and unsupported head the cases won't take a whole lot of extra pressure.

[rogsir]

I slugged my g22 barrel today, and it seems to be so close to 402 that i say its 402, my question now is: do i need a 403 bullet or do the glock barrel sqeese out the bullet so that the 401 fits ? what do the experienced glock .40 guys use ? i had no leading with the 401 in 18 brinell. mut the max speed used was 960fps. looking for some tips, since i want this gun to run ipsc major factor.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I am coming to this discussion rather late but I feel I have some relavent points to make.

First: Glocks don't have what is traditionally known as Polygonal Rifling.

Polygonal Rifling is the Metford style discussed at the begining of this thread. It was developed by the British (probably a guy named Metford) specifically for large caliber rifles where leading was a problem due to heavy charges of Cordite. This type of rifling has no sharp edges to attract lead deposits. It is essentially a twisted smooth bore.

My first encounter with this type of rifling was in 1978 when the H&K PS9 pistols first came out. It had rifling that looked like a pentagon with radiuses instead of points for the corners. IE:Metford style

My comment to the owner of the gun shop was " oh this is new"

He then went to the back room and produced a beautiful Holland and Holland Double Rifle in .500NE worth $25K back then, and stuck the barrels up in my face. Low and behold it had the same style rifling as the PS9. It was made in 1902.

He said "in guns,,, nothing is new". :holysheep

Glock's have rifling that has definate lands and grooves, except the lands are radiused instead of having square edges. Glock calls this "polygonal". I and many others call it "mis named", and mis leading. This type of rifling does not grip soft lead bullets very well and if ran too fast can "strip the rifling" which leads to leading. It is optimized for jacketed bullets.

Glocks also lead because of several factors which have already been discussed above, and none of them have anything to do with the rifling's style. Undersized, Hard, and Bevel Based Bullets which don't bump up, and hot loads are the main reasons for this type of leading. This is true of any type of leading in guns using cast boolits, now isn't it?.

Glocks position on reloads is the same as all other manufacturers. Glocks are utilitarian tools, they are the Vaughn Claw Hammer of guns, and they are made to function perfectly with a variety of factory loaded ammo. They don't care if your reloads don't work, they tell you not to do it. That said, we all do, do it.

If your gun blows up from leading maybe you should have looked down the barrel a little sooner. I would think you would notice the recoil increasing from the lead buildup. Maybe a jacketed bullet in every magazine would help. They will remove all leading instantly.

But really, isn't paying attention to what you are doing, and understanding the risks probably going to keep you out of trouble more than anything else. And this is true of all kinds of things now isn't it?

I closing, my .02 on this subject is, that Glock barrels lead just as much as anyother kind of barrel and for the exact same reasons.

"nothing is new in guns"

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

rogsir: I'd run Xtreme plated bullets which won't mind being ran that fast or even faster. You're on the edge with cast boolits at that speed.

If you have no leading at .401 then the fit is good. But as you increase speed the pressure goes higher and the possibility of blowby increases. Blow by is the major cause of leading and as the speeds increase that is where the problem of leading starts.

You have to creep up the max speed for your situation. Or you can completely eliminate the problem by using gas checks or the easier way is to just buy Plated Bullets.

Randy

[Multigunner]

I am coming to this discussion rather late but I feel I have some relavent points to make.

First: Glocks don't have what is traditionally known as Polygonal Rifling.

Polygonal Rifling is the Metford style discussed at the begining of this thread. It was developed by the British (probably a guy named Metford) specifically for large caliber rifles where leading was a problem due to heavy charges of Cordite. This type of rifling has no sharp edges to attract lead deposits. It is essentially a twisted smooth bore.


Randy

Pretty much correct except Metford rifling predates Cordite or any other smokeless propellent.
The original .303 cartridge used a compressed cylinder of Black Powder, the shape of the cylinder allowed the powder to burn in much the same manner as a solid rocket motor only much faster, the cylinder stayed in the case of course. This gave a power curve similar to progressive burning smokeless powders.
When Cordite was developed they found the higher temperatures burned out the throats and eroded the bores of Metford style barrels very quickly. This resulted in development of the Enfield pattern rifling with equal width lands and grooves and deep grooves to help withstand erosion.
Remington uses a similar bore for its sniper rifles these days to allow longer accurate bore life.

[saint_iverson]

Hmm... I'm new to this thread, so forgive me if this is a tangent.

Isn't the problem with running cast through the Glock 22 not a matter of leading/explosion from the rifling, but a matter of running "reloads" through the pistol and voiding the warrantee?

In my friends Gen-1, his spent factory rounds all have extensive bulging in the base of the case due to the rounds base not being completely shrounded in the chamber. It is not a headspace issue, nor anything anomalous as this is/was expected from this particular Glock. Note that the Lee and other "Bulge buster" dies that resize the spent cases all have disclaimers on them saying that they do not guarantee brass spent from .40 Glocks due to this issue.

Perhaps with new brass this would not present as much of a problem, and I know that many members here are much more knowledgeable on the Glock flavor than I. I hope that this stirs the nest a little, but doesn'tdetract from the subject.

[thegreatdane]

Iverson, the reload/warranty issue is universal, and a gen 1 had a very unsupported chamber. As I understand it, the 40 was built directly on a 9 frame. The chamber was as result of making the new round fit.

Also, i'd like to report that I fired about 100 cast boolits tonight with zero leading and decent accuracy.

[Multigunner]

Since the lack of support at the casehead has been a long known problem with the 1911 and several other autoloaders designed to fire cartridges with much lower chamber pressures, I can't see why a manufacturer would copy this potential hazard in a fairly new design. Fairly new in that its about 1/3 as old as the classic autoloader designs.
They should have let history teach its lessons.

I can see how a generous chamber could be considered a plus if the pistol were being used in WW1 Flanders, but when the ammunition generates near magnum pressure levels a closely fitted chamber makes more sense. The loose tolerances of the Glock leaves little room for error should a cartridge have any defect in load or casing.
I've read of bullets becoming seated deeper in the case due to repeated loading and unloading of the same top round generating enough excess pressure to wreck the pistol.
Which brings up a point. Whatever handloads you assemble its wise to be sure the bullet is secure and unlikely to become jammed back into the case. Also any loaded round that seems to have become jammed up like that should be discarded or broken down at the first opportunity.
I've been told that some SuperVel 9mm Truncated cone bullet ammo had caused the same problem with Browning P-35, but with less dramatic results.
I used up a few boxes of SuperVel in my P-35 without any problems years ago, so it was likely a bad lot that didn't have enough neck tension.

[MO Fugga]

I have shot 230gr hardcast through my G20, and no problems. They say that the 230's keyhole often, but I never noticed.

[UnderDawgAl]

Been meaning to post the following for months now. My G19 RTF (late Gen 3) shoots extremely accurately with the Lee 358-105-SWC and 4.3 grains of HP-38. This is with the stock barrel.

I get some very minor leading at the breech end of the barrel, but nothing that a couple of passes of Chore Boy on a bronze brush won't quickly remove. With only a couple hundred rounds down the barrel so far, the leading might dissipate once the barrel gets broken in a little--which will take a long time because (1) I primarily shoot wheelguns at the range, and (2) my preferred semiauto for paper-punching is the BHP.[smilie=w:

[161]

I took 3 guys to the range last Friday. Two G22s one XD ran 900 rnds in each no malfunctions no degrade in accuracy very little leading. 15 rnds. of jacketed at the end of the day and cleaning was easy. Ammo was 180 2Alpha cast 5.2 gr. WSF WW mag. primer.

[thegreatdane]

Bump Bump to report a great success

I am convinced that it can be done with careful attention to boolit SIZE (first and foremost), pressure, lube, crimp etc.

I say: don't get your head wrapped around this mess. Do everything right, monitor each aspect of the loading process very carefully, and test in small batches. This is a problem that can be solved.

...although I didn't find the rather aggressive glock twist rate in .45 to be particularly accurate... Either way, it worked.

I've successfully fired several hundred rounds in the .45, .40, 10mm, and 9mm. They all had mirrored barrels with zero leading.

[Maximumbob54]

I have been casting using the Lee TL356-124-TC and I used thinned LLA with them. They are dropping at .356-.357 somewhere in between. They don't lead at all but I only shoot a few hundred then I'm into something else at the range. I go home and clean with Hoppes #9 which isn't known for superior lead cleaning and use a bronze brush a couple of times. Never had the first problem of pressure signs, leading, or lube build up. Just good times at the range with super cheap ammo through a second gen 17.

[jbird]

I have shot several hundred lead reloads through my 2nd Gen G17. The loads are nothing special, 158gr straight WW sized to .357 & going 879 fps from a Browning HP (my standard chrono 9mm pistol). I have never even needed a bore brush to clean the bore. I just got this Glock two years ago. It used to be a range rental gun for 14 or so years. So it has had a LOT of rounds & the bore is very smooth. That might contribute to the non-leading issue.

[Sapper771]

A few weeks ago, I shot 30 rounds of my cast reloads through my G17 with factory barrel. I ran a nylon brush through the barrel to wipe out the lube fouling. NO LEADING.

Lee 120gr TC, AC WW , sized to 0.358" , and lubed with BAC.

[mongo]

I put a storm lake barrel in my Glock23 and cast a bunch of Lee 175 TC. Lubed then with 45/45/10, Sized them .401, Tumble lubed again, Loaded them over 4.7 grains 231, Used a Lee factory crimp die, Fired 200 of them with no leading at all. Life is good.. LOL Tommy

[z4lunch]

Steve here... I too would like to share the little bit I have learned.
I fell into an as new Gen 3 Glock 22 months back, and after reading all the posts about cast boolits in factory barrels, i ordered a kkm 40-9mm conversion barrel right out of the gate> I ordered the conversion to 9mm rather than a .40 because I didn't have a .40 mold or dies. At that time. My G22 shoots very accurate with cast boolits in KKM .40-9mm conversion barrel. It likes the Lyman/Ideal 356402, sized to .356. I do use a 9mm mag.
That being said, I recently purchased a vintage Ideal 40143 mold, which was designed for the 38-40. I wanted to try out the factory .40 barrel, which allegedly had four rounds thru it. Anyway...the boolits drop out of the mold at .4035 plus plus, and when I slugged the bore I was shocked when the bore measured .4015...
I had to hand lube them and I tried them as cast. The pistol shot well, and I had no leading. I was shooting very light loads of BE and the boolits where a 15-1 mix.( I don't think they need to be that hard tho) I have a .403 sizer on order for my Star, from Chris Smith.
Steven

[HDS]

We'll see in a while how well this will work out I guess.

Got a 9mm mold coming for my G17 (mihec 147 gr BB), gonna see how it works out with the factory barrel but if I have to start using really high-BHN bullets I think I will move to the aftermarket barrel instead (IGB barrel from austria). A fully supported chamber is also a nice plus.

I don't have access to any wheel weights or stuff like that so antimony is hard to get, I like to mix it 50/50 with PB. Not sure if thats possible in a 9mm but I'm hoping.

[ilcop22]

I shoot WW boolits out of my XD 45 and it works just fine. Puts neat holes in paper.

[delt167502]

FOR info only. I decided to find if cast could or could not work in a glock. First I emailed glock if they had any response to to shooting lead and if they had any ideas. I recived no response at all.(c.s.) using diffrent molds and diff. bullet weight . sizing to .356 not good even a few tumblers at 30 ' .I then cast some diffrent molds,by beagling out the dia.then sized to .357.they seem to grip the lands and work ,at least in this bbl.(slugs out at .356) 1 group measured 3" for 16 rounds at 30 ft. off a rest. I have been casting ,starting in 1963 (mostly w.w.)so it isn't like I just started and are a expert allready.

[Bwana]

delt167502,
I suggest .358". Also, in my G19, the Lee 125gr 2R boolit won't shoot small groups. Kind of funny because the 102gr 1R and SAECO 122gr #377 shoot very well as does the no longer produced Lee 150gr 38 Super boolit.
So keep tinkering and you'll get there. Welcome to the club.

[Casper29]

So we can actually settle this debate and I can sticky a thread can someone[s] chime in with facts from personal experience[s] with their Glocks and cast.

Notice I asked for facts, not hearsay, not factory advisements, etc.
For the record, I do not own a Glock and have no dog in this fight.
No digging in other's experiences for sake of an argument are needed, please keep it civil. [smilie=1:

I have shot hundreds of cast for my 40 modle 27 4th generation and have not had any problems I keep the loads around 920 fps

[HDS]

delt167502,
I suggest .358". Also, in my G19, the Lee 125gr 2R boolit won't shoot small groups. Kind of funny because the 102gr 1R and SAECO 122gr #377 shoot very well as does the no longer produced Lee 150gr 38 Super boolit.
So keep tinkering and you'll get there. Welcome to the club.

Do you guys think it would be worth trying unsized bullets? I got a mihec 9mm 147gr mold and it drops them a .359", think that's good for a factory barrel?

[SuperBlackhawk]

I have had good luck with cast in a .40 model 23 and a 22 with factory barrel as long as I keep the loads light. If I try to push them at all I get some leading. I use a Lone Wolf barrel for my hotter loads now. Its easier on the brass too.

I also have a Glock with a Lone Wolf .40 barrel. I was thinking of trying some lead loads. Can cast bullets approach jacketed velocities and not lead?

[Moonie]

Do you guys think it would be worth trying unsized bullets? I got a mihec 9mm 147gr mold and it drops them a .359", think that's good for a factory barrel?

If they will fit the chamber loaded like that I would shoot them.

[garym1a2]

My Storm lake barrel in 9mm run clean with the Lee 120gr TC at about 1100 FPS. It takes that speed to run minor class. I use a very slow powder.
In 40 it does shoot very clean but I only load a 175gr TC to about 800 fps. I call it my 40 super wimpy load. Recoil is very low at slow speeds and follow-up shoots are fast.

Nice thing about a Glock 22 is that I have two Strom lake barrels for it, one in 9mm and the other in 40.
P.S.my factory 40 barrels leads very fast yet in the Glock 21SF the factory barrel shots clean.



I also have a Glock with a Lone Wolf .40 barrel. I was thinking of trying some lead loads. Can cast bullets approach jacketed velocities and not lead?

[FergusonTO35]

I love shooting boolits and I really like the Glock firing mechanism. I don't care for the rest of the gun, however. I chose a Ruger SR9c and am very happy with it. Its a well made, less costly alternative to the Glock. Mine loves boolits, whether I made 'em or they came from a cheapo commercial source.

[fish0123]

Just documenting my experience with my glock...

I have shot around 1000 rounds of Lee 230 grain LRN TL from my Glock 30 stock barrel with no leading. I tumble lube with 45/45/10 and use 5 grains of Universal Clays.

[yondering]

The Glock 45 ACP barrels do seem to work very well with cast. My 21SF shoots more accurately and with less tendency to lead than my 1911's, and I'm really not a Glock guy.

[thegreatdane]

The original thread starter:

So we can actually settle this debate and I can sticky a thread can someone[s] chime in with facts from personal experience[s] with their Glocks and cast.

Notice I asked for facts, not hearsay, not factory advisements, etc.
For the record, I do not own a Glock and have no dog in this fight.
No digging in other's experiences for sake of an argument are needed, please keep it civil. [smilie=1:

7 pages and 124 posts later, the topic still arrises. :coffeecom

[mr.jake]

Ive shot over 5,000 boolits from my 9MM glock WITH FACTORY BARREL in the last 8 or 10 months since i started casting/ reloading. Mines never blown up. I shoot from 300-500 per session and clean the barrel afterwards. I have trace amounts of leading with some loads but it cleans off effortlessly. I only tumble lube my boolits. I shoot the RD- tl 135@ .357, LEE 105 @ .358, LEE 125 @ .358 LEE tl 124 @ .356. I use AA#5 only ane keep most of the loads in the medium range but the 105's i shoot pretty hot. Ive even shot a couple LEE TL SWC 158 @ .358 in my 9mm. With proper fit and generous lube my glock with FACTORY barrel shoots just fine....

[ROGER4314]

TR Graham noted Glock expert and Glock Instructional Video maker has worked on every Glock that I've ever owned. He's also worked on other pistols for me but that's a secret. I've learned to trust what he says so I asked him the question about using cast bullets in Glocks. He replied that the factory didn't recommend it and he didn't either. That sealed the deal for me! I have priced aftermarket barrels with standard rifling and they're fairly cheap ($100-140). When I decide to shoot cast bullets in a Glock, that's the way I'll do it.

Flash

[garym1a2]

We ran over 650 45acps cast thru my 21sf this morning. Only one ftf for me after over 600 rounds dues to a wimpy grip. This is real dirty from lube but will clean easy. Glock 21SF's are a cast boolit shooting machine.

[EMC45]

We ran over 650 45acps cast thru my 21sf this morning. Only one ftf for me after over 600 rounds dues to a wimpy grip. This is real dirty from lube but will clean easy. Glock 21SF's are a cast boolit shooting machine.

So are the G36s.

[Catshooter]

So I'm giving the 9mm in a Glock a try. Been twenty years since I loaded any lead in a Glock, don't recall a thing I did before. :)

My boolit is a Lyman 356634, drops at .358 and 140 grains sized & lubed with LARs 2500. See the pic.

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo235/Catshooter45/001_zpsb6d1fcf7.jpg

The Glock factory barrel and my Lonewolf after market barrel are both .356 and a tiny bit, measured with a Starrett mic.

I have seated the boolit as deep as you see or it will hit the end of the throat/rifling. At first I sized them at .3572, the actual size my ".357" sizing die gives me. Loaded over five grains of HS-6 gave me some pretty good leading out of both barrels. Leading started just slightly passed the end of the chamber, all the way around the barrel and full length.

So without changing anything else, I found a sizer die that would give me .358, used that. Didn't change the leading at all. The load was up at the top, there was a pretty good impression of the breech face's rectangular firing pin hole in the primers. They are Winchester by the way.

So yesterday I dropped the powder to 4.5 grains. Greatly reduced the leading and the primers were rounded with the barest hint of the breech face in 'em. But they still lead.

Mmm. So next, I'm trying Universal Clays instead of the HS-6.

To be continued.


Cat

[jrplane]

I have shot over 5000 230 RN lead from my 21. I have little to no leading. Right now I have 800+ rounds in it without running a brush thought it.

I have a second 21 with a lone wolf barrel, it leads worse that the factory Glock barrel.

[Andrew Quigley]

I was shooting my cast bullets in my Glock 23 with the factory barrel but quit as it was leading the barrel something awful. Scrubbed the barrel a dozen times trying to get all the lead out, shot 40 rds thru it and the barrel was loaded with lead in one spot and 3/4's of the way down the barrel. Always in that same spot. Wanted a 9mm conversion barrel anyway for this gun so I swapped in a Lonewolf and banged away with my 9 mm castboolits. No leading. Gonna do a harder batch of boolits for my 40's and try them as it may be this batch as to soft for it. Will see.

[Aimstraight762]

I'd like to work up to your load. I'm using a 230 gr RN tumble lube pill on top of 4.5 grains unique. At 5.0 grains I had terrible leading in the throat. I was sizing to .451. I am using straight w/w lead to cast and quenching them. I guess the only other point I haven't stated is that this is out of a 1911 government. Any help would be great.

[Catshooter]

Aim,

Is your boolit, at .451, larger than the bore? With some of my 45s, I need to go at least .001 and preferable .0025 over bore size.

Also, your sizing to .451. Have you measured a sized boolit or is that just the number on the die? Sometimes they aren't as marked.

I've never needed to quench a boolit for the 45 Auto. I would bet a quarter your boolit is too small for your bore.

Welcome to the site.


Cat

[kaytod]

Here is the FWIW department.
Having always heard of the prohibition of lead bullets in blocks oops Glocks, I couldn't resist the urge to look into it as it smacks of the same stories regarding Marlin's micro groove barrels.
So, here is the story. My friend has an old Glock in 10mm and one weekend we decided to tackle this. First was to clean the barrel of all the fouling that was present from all the jacketed stuff over it's lifetime. The "valleys" of the barrel were blackend with carbon and jacket layers, I ceased from cleaning after an hour when only small streaks of goo were present in spots down the bore.
Slugging the barrel the "groove" dimension was .403.
The bullet used was one of my designs for the 38WCF, and yes it wears a copper diaper. It's cast diameter was .4035 on the band below the crimp groove. Alas I only have a .401 size die, so the bullets were only run into the Lyman lubersizer until the gas check was crimped on and the lube groove filled. Thus it left the crimp band at .4035. Nose diameter of the bullets were .398+
The bullets fed and functioned without incident.

Load was 11.0 of 2400 and the cast bullet of 205 gn weight.
http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx74/kaytod/Glock10mm.jpg


This is the bullet on the left. The middle bullet is a 230 gn and the far right jacketed is a Hornady 180 XTP
http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx74/kaytod/401-230FNGCJPG.jpg

I shot a 25 round group that was about 5" outside. Since I've never owned a Glock nor have shot one much, my initial take is, the group isn't all that bad considering the waterpistol trigger, coarse sights and raking ( arched mainspring shaped) grip. Having cut my teeth on a Colt 1911 Gold Cup, the Glock doesn't excite me much.

Muzzle showed a distinct "wetness" of lube star and the barrel showed very minute streaking in the grooves. I wonder if the streaking was due to the leftover gunk I left in the barrel, as it was in the same areas and distances. There was no evidence of leading at the chamber leade nor the first part of the barrel. All in all the bore condition was far FAR cleaner than the jacketed stuff.

I believe this gun would have benefited from a bullet that is .001 over groove, it it will chamber freely.
There is my take from the farm. Hope this helps

[Ironnewt]

ok you guys that have them what kind of groups do you get at 25yds AND try to be honest. I have shot 4 different guns and none will shoot with a colt or kimber and even a 220 sig will out shoot them rick

Even on my best day I can't keep my groups with my Glock (s) as tight as I can with a Colt 1911 or a S&W wheelgun. Glock's are service pistols with reasonable accuracy, not bullseye guns.

[Walt]

Catshooter, all of my 9mm Glocks seem to like 'em at .356.

[Catshooter]

Yea, with mine hardness seems to be more important that size as long as I'm at least .001 over.


Cat

[Any Cal.]

I was thinking about this thread, and realized I hadn't shot many cast in the factory barrel. Using water-dropped boolits in a 10mm w/ a LOT of Longshot, I got identical leading in the factory and aftermarket barrel, a little bit in the last inch of barrel. Using air-cooled with the same load, I got lots of leading in the stock AND aftermarket barrel. Will be shooting the stock barrel much more now, even with super hot cast loads.

[Catshooter]

Any Cal.,

Usually, not always but usually leading at the end of the bore indicates the lube isn't doing it's job or there isn't enough of it. Just in case you didn't know.


Cat

[HDS]

I tried .359 sized 147gr bullets in my factory barrel but got horrible leading, it was only tumble lubed though. Never had any success with that... I since got an aftermarket barrel and now I size to .356 and lube with felix lube + extra carnauba. Did 50 rounds last weekend and there was zero leading, shiny bore infact.

I should try these in the factory barrel as well to see if they work as well in that. Still the new barrel stays, it's threaded for a reason :)

[Walt]

If I were you, I would try the .356 147s in the factory barrel for sure.

[Catshooter]

Well I can now report sucess with my G19 and G37.

The boolits need to be both oversized by .001 to .0015 and water dropped wheel weights. I suspect that my WW is lacking in elements that it should have as it doesn't get to be more than about 12 BNH after water dropping.

But, it will then do the job and shoot accurately and without leading.

I'm a happy camper! :)


Cat

[taco650]

I loaded some store bought 147gr BBTC that were supposed to be "hard cast" (I think they were .356 diameter) for my gen 4 G17 a couple years back. Powder was Titegroup, around 5grs. I loaded them hotter and they keyholed at 25yds. Don't remember leading being a problem, just poor accuracy. Never bought anymore and switched to plated bullets. They were more accurate and cost the same. Now I've gotten into casting my own and got a G27 last fall. My only regret about buying it was I didn't get a mold at the same time. Now none are available anywhere! I will shoot lead in my Glock and I also will keep it clean. If you use your brain and take care of your stuff like you should, you won't have issues.

[Charlie U.]

...............the factory didn't recommend it and he didn't either. That sealed the deal for me! I have priced aftermarket barrels with standard rifling and they're fairly cheap ($100-140). When I decide to shoot cast bullets in a Glock, that's the way I'll do it.

Flash
I agree 100%.

Glock says no cast boolits in their barrels for a reason....why tempt fate?

[Walt]

I agree 100%.

Glock says no cast boolits in their barrels for a reason....why tempt fate?

If you haven't done it don't knock it. :)

[freebullet]

I like the Springfield xd better. More natural point of aim no leading very accurate for me.

[jmort]

That something can be done in contradiction to the manufacturer's specific warning does not make it a sound practice. Between, the manufacturer, Glock, and a post in a thread, I tend to stick with the more knowledgeable source. An aftermarket barrel makes sense.

[Charlie U.]

If you haven't done it don't knock it. :)

Maybe you misread me.....I didn't knock anyone or call anyone stupid.
I was simply agreeing with ROGER4314 in saying I will not do it.

If you and others choose to act in direct contradiction to manufacturers recommendations that is entirely your choice. Good luck with that.

[Walt]

Maybe you misread me.....I didn't knock anyone or call anyone stupid.
I was simply agreeing with ROGER4314 in saying I will not do it.

If you and others choose to act in direct contradiction to manufacturers recommendations that is entirely your choice. Good luck with that.

How many firearms do you reload for? I'm thinking maybe 10% of the current firearm manufacturers recommend reloading for their products. That's where I'm coming from. :)

[ACrowe25]

How many firearms do you reload for? I'm thinking maybe 10% of the current firearm manufacturers recommend reloading for their products. That's where I'm coming from. :)

Not one of my manuals say reloading is O.K. :lol:

As you can see I listen well...

[Charlie U.]

.......I'm thinking maybe 10% of the current firearm manufacturers recommend reloading for their products. That's where I'm coming from. :)
Touche'.........you make a sound point with that one.

[Walt]

Not one of my manuals say reloading is O.K. :lol

Exactly! You have some manufacturers that make competition guns and they expect handloads to be used. Bill Wilson used to name the loads he used, I assume his son is now OK with handloads in his guns. Nosler and Remington make reloading components so they should be good with the practice. Many firearm manuals say NOT to use reloaded ammo of any kind......"you spends your money and you takes your chances". :) If I had to buy a new barrel for any handgun to shoot my cast bullet handloads I wouldn't buy that gun, but that's just me......I have quite a few Glocks and no after market barrels.

[Andrew Quigley]

Have a question to the folks shooting their own cast boolits in their glock 40's and 45 acp. What do you size both of these too? I've had problems with my g23 leading pretty bad on 25 rds and sized to .401. Same lead mix in my 45 acp bullets that I sized to .451 and have shoot about 300 rds with no problems until today. Possible some of these may have measured .450. Anybody using .452 with good results?

[Walt]

For my 40 S&W Glocks (22, 23, 24, and 35) I load 3.5 Bullseye under a 175 SWC sized .401 and 3.8 Clays under a 200 SWC sized .452 for my 21. Some guns will not run these light loads 100% right out of the box (my Gen4 35 was balky when new).

[Catshooter]

I've shot cast from two calibers in Glocks: 9MM & 45 GAP. Both required one to two thousandth over bore and water dropping. Or they would lead excellently.

But others are getting no leading without hardening, so results vary.

As per usual, each firearm is a rule unto itself and your best results will come from listening to it.


Cat

[Andrew Quigley]

Well I had been shooting my g30 with no leading issues until at a IDPA match this past Sunday. Had bullets tumbling at 5yrds making jagged holes. All my bullets are run thru a Lee .451 sizer that I'd had no problems with but Monday night I got to suspecting it so I checked 90 bullets I had run thru the day before. All measured .450 and that's what my G30's barrel slugged out to. Looked into the die and it was crudded up with lead and lube, can't remember the last time I had cleaned it.
So now I about to load some .452's that I just cast to see how they will run thru my Glock, the sizer is freshly cleaned.
Oh, my .401 die was even worse!:rolleyes:

[HDS]

If I were you, I would try the .356 147s in the factory barrel for sure.

Well that's been tested and it was not much better. I did not expect it to at .356" which is for a match barrel. I should try it with some .359s but I would have to slather on the lube on an uncalibrated bullet by hand for that.

[Walt]

Well that's been tested and it was not much better. I did not expect it to at .356" which is for a match barrel. I should try it with some .359s but I would have to slather on the lube on an uncalibrated bullet by hand for that.

Most of my 9mm Glocks do well (fairly accurate and very little to zero leading) with a .356 147 FN and 3.5 Unique.

[outdoorfan]

How many of you are successfully shooting softer lead in your 9mm Glocks? By softer I mean 8-10 bhn. I don't have a Glock but am thinking about getting one. A 125-130 grain boolit at 900-950 fps sounds about right to me, and I would like to be able to do it with air-cooled 50/50 alloy, which for me runs 8-9 bhn.

[9.3X62AL]

In 45 ACP, both .452" and .454; shot very well in the Glock 21's OEM barrel. Alloy was 92/6/2, lube was Javelina 50/50, all boolit designs had conventional lube grooves. These boolits were Lymans #452374 and #452460, Lees 230 TC and 200 SWC. All boolits went into the hundreds with round count; there was no discernible leading present.

My theory--such as it is--the 45 ACP is a generally lead-friendly caliber anyway. 9mm--40 S&W--and 10mm are more hostile environments for cast bullets, being more akin to rifle conditions (high pressures, fast twists) than to handgun conditions. To date, I have "chickened out" from using lead boolits in Glock 9mm and 40 S&W barrels, and have opted for aftermarket barrels featuring conventional (and slower twist) rifling forms and fully-supported chamber designs. This is NOT a recommendation or advice--it is just my mode of operation that flows from an abundance of caution and laziness. I don't want to re-shoot and re-test my daughters' 9mm and 40 S&W Glocks as extensively as I did the G-21.

[outdoorfan]

Understand. What's the twist rate of the Glock 9mm, if anyone knows? I'm too lazy to check right now. LOL!

I read somewhere on here that the 9mm chamber isn't as unsupported as the 40 s&w chamber. Did I read that right?

[9.3X62AL]

Understand. What's the twist rate of the Glock 9mm, if anyone knows? I'm too lazy to check right now. LOL! (4 turns per meter, or 1-9.75")

I read somewhere on here that the 9mm chamber isn't as unsupported as the 40 s&w chamber. Did I read that right? (That is my understanding also)

Dunno if this will work......

[outdoorfan]

1-9.75" is FAST! I wonder what for? Most .357 magnums are 1-16 - 1-20 and they stabilize 180's just fine.

[Catshooter]

In my experience the 9mm is indeed tighter chambered than their older 40s. I have heard that the newer 40s have chambers that are tightened up somewhat, I don't know.


Cat

[Jailer]

How many of you are successfully shooting softer lead in your 9mm Glocks? By softer I mean 8-10 bhn. I don't have a Glock but am thinking about getting one. A 125-130 grain boolit at 900-950 fps sounds about right to me, and I would like to be able to do it with air-cooled 50/50 alloy, which for me runs 8-9 bhn.

I've had good success with the MP 125 HP mold air cooled and sized to .358 in my factory 26 barrel. Heavier boolits require a harder alloy to help reduce swaging due to case taper on the longer boolits. You'll have to figure out what works in your gun.



I read somewhere on here that the 9mm chamber isn't as unsupported as the 40 s&w chamber. Did I read that right?

I found the opposite to be true.


I have heard that the newer 40s have chambers that are tightened up somewhat, I don't know.


Cat

I haven't seen any difference in the gen 4 chambers compared to the gen 3's and that's from a pretty decent sample size (100+ of each type). They all leave a pretty good size smile on the brass.

[Catshooter]

Jailer,

That's good to know about the 40s chambers, thanks. I had just repeated what I had read and had no idea if it was true or not.


Cat

[outdoorfan]

I've had good success with the MP 125 HP mold air cooled and sized to .358 in my factory 26 barrel.

I have the same mold. What velocity and powder usage is that load of yours at?

[nessus]

Not a Glock but I have fired a few hundred cast boolits out of my CZ82 ((mm makarov w/polygonal barrel) and have had no leading to speak of.
I use liquid alox, and a hard cast 95gr bullet.

I have fired over a 1000 rounds of commercial cast lead out of my CZ82 with zero leading.

[Jailer]

I have the same mold. What velocity and powder usage is that load of yours at?

Not sure on velocity but they were loaded pretty tame with a 3.0gr load of titegroup.

[tfreeman1911]

i shot plenty of cast through my Glock 17 before I traded in for my Beretta 92. The accuracy was horrible, but it didn't really have any ill effects otherwise. I then got a KKM barrel, which has standard rifling, and it shot great. The only safety concern with Glocks is the 40S&W can really disagree with the unsupported chambers (my Lyman manual has that in bold print), but the chamber issue has supposedly been fixed on the gen4 models. If you're going to reload 40 in general, i would say invest the extra cash into a bulge buster and FCD. it adds time to your process but also it adds quality.
bottom line: from my experience, get an aftermarket barrel for the range to shoot lead out of a Glock and you won't degrade your accuracy.

[tfreeman1911]

I have fired over a 1000 rounds of commercial cast lead out of my CZ82 with zero leading.
i've also fired a few hundred rounds of cast thru my cz82 with no problems. accuracy was great too. I was using 3.3gr Red Dot under a 105gr LFP boolit. great article here http://www.reloadingroom.com/index_files/Makarov.htm

[larry4831]

I have a glock 20 and have fired more than 2000 rounds with cast and 9 grains of blue dot and have never had a leading problem and it shoots fine.

[ben lurkin]

I've a Glock Gen 3 model 23. I long since replaced the factory barrel. Shooting reloads and factory glock barrels are a bad combination to begin with. In addition, Glock doesn't recommend lead bullets in their barrels! The factory chambers are oversize so they will feed anything and everything thrown at them. This is good for a combat designed pistol. In addition, the cartridge head isn't fully supported. In a high pressure round like the 40, repeated working of the brass because of this and the sloppy chamber will eventually cause a blow-up.

79025

Do yourselves a favor and pony up for a good fully supported barrel with a tight(er) chamber.

79026

[snuffy]

I've a Glock Gen 3 model 23. I long since replaced the factory barrel. Shooting reloads and factory glock barrels are a bad combination to begin with. In addition, Glock doesn't recommend lead bullets in their barrels! The factory chambers are oversize so they will feed anything and everything thrown at them. This is good for a combat designed pistol. In addition, the cartridge head isn't fully supported. In a high pressure round like the 40, repeated working of the brass because of this and the sloppy chamber will eventually cause a blow-up.

79025

Do yourselves a favor and pony up for a good fully supported barrel with a tight(er) chamber.

79026

Ben, if you read the entire thread, you'll see that many of us routinely shoot lead in out glocks. The warnings glock puts in the destructions, is lawyer speak for their own protection. No firearms manufactures say it's okay yo use ANY reloaded ammo. Since there are almost no factory loaded lead ammo, then they're saying no lead reloads. Reloaded ammo voids all warranties!

Posting a picture of a blown up glock proves what???¿¿¿ An overload is an overload, no matter what bullet/boolit is used!

Also generation 3 and 4 glocks have more support in the chambers, the feed ramp is redesigned to give more support at the back-bottom of the chamber.

[Catshooter]

Snuffy,

Don't try and confuse him with facts. He know what he knows and that's all he needs to know.


Cat

[Walt]

Snuffy,

Don't try and confuse him with facts. He know what he knows and that's all he needs to know.


Cat

Well said.

[EMC45]

For 9MM I size to .358 in the G19. I tried .356 and the bullets would key hole and tumble. So bad that they were hitting the logs we were firing at and bouncing back at us.:shock: And there was leading. I recently just shot some cast Lee 120gr. TC out of my brother's G19 sized @.358 and they did fine with no leading. Used the Glock plastic brush to knock the carbon out of the barrel and it was shiny like new. For my G36 I size to .452. It eats up the Lee 230gr. TC like candy. The only problem I have is buildup of lube sometimes. No leading, no over pressure. Both 9 and 45 loads are real accurate too.

[hunter12]

I have shot thousands of rounds of lead through my gen 1 G17 and a few hundred through my G30 with no issues. That being said I will be switching to plated bullets for piece of mind

[robertbank]

Here is a picture of the case support for three versions of Glocks. The latest version supports the case as well as any gun I have seen.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a387/robertbank/Glock.jpg (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/robertbank/media/Glock.jpg.html)

[
Take Care

Bob

[Catshooter]

Very informative pic Robert. Nice.

Might be an interesting comparison to section an empty case in half and then slip it into the chambers.


Cat

[zubrato]

Just wondering, on average to what size do your 9mm glocks slug at? I've noticed my g19, and g26 both slugged at .357, while my Lee mold drops at .356-.358 (due to temperature differences I'm sure, will be investing in a lead thermometer soon)
The .358's bulge the cases and fail the plunk test, while the .356's have too little neck tension using the 38S&W expander...
So as a result, I havent been sizing my boolits, hoping to keep as much diameter as possible. I will be trying out my loads this weekend, and possibly investing in a Lone Wolf barrel, rather than beagling or leementing since I'm new and will probably screw something up..
Any tips or ideas for a noobie?

[43PU]

I'm shooting 50% WW and 50% 30:1 air cooled in my 17 (g4) and in my 21 (g) with a 10mm barrel and 400 Corbon with 0 leading I just put 700 rounds of the lee 200 swc through yesterday over 5.5 grn of unique with zero cleaning and zero leading

[h8dirt]

My G21 has a few thousand H&G 68's thru its Storm Lake barrel without a hitch using WST and VV N310. I clean it well after every 200 or so rounds. Never hard to clean and it shoots great (for a plastic gun).

[FergusonTO35]

I wonder how well the new Glock 42 .380 will do with boolits? My guess is pretty good since the .380 is a low pressure round.

[jakec]

ive been running cast in a g22. its all been once fired brass but none of it was fired in a glock. i havent reloaded any of the twice fired, once in a glock now, brass. yall think is this ok? i figure i just wont load it again. or maybe just wont load it again to run in a glock. ive only ran about 150 rounds of my reloads.

[FergusonTO35]

I think you'll be fine, with due caution of course. The .40 is a fairly high pressure round from the factory but your cast boolit ammo is likely alot lower. From what I understand the newer Glocks have better supported chambers than the old ones did. My 9mm brass seems to last forever when shooting boolits. Never had a case fail or grow in length appreciably. I only discard it when the mouth starts to split or it gets lost.

[robertbank]

ive been running cast in a g22. its all been once fired brass but none of it was fired in a glock. i havent reloaded any of the twice fired, once in a glock now, brass. yall think is this ok? i figure i just wont load it again. or maybe just wont load it again to run in a glock. ive only ran about 150 rounds of my reloads.

What generation of Glock do you own? From the Gen 3 on the Glock barrels support the case as well as any gun does. Clean your gun after every session and you should have nothing to concern yourself regarding using the brass.

Take Care

Bob

[Hunter]

I cast a few hundred bullets for my G20 with Lyman 401638, which is a 175gr truncated cone bullet. They were lubed with Lyman Alox and water quenched to a hardness of 19 Brinnell.
I sized them .401". Working up a load with IMR 800X after about 40 rounds through the Glock barrel I noticed leading. Using the same round and a Lonewolf barrel I shot a few hundred with almost zero leading.

I am not one to take chances when a Lonewolf barrel is inexpensive.

[Tom W.]

To ask another question....

I just traded for a Model 30 Gen 4. I have yet to have it delivered. The website says it has octagonal rifling. Which means what?
My hope is to shoot the same cast loads as I shoot from my Colt Government Model.

[Love Life]

It should be polygonal rifling. As long as your bullet is sized correctly and a adequate lube is used, you will be fine. Fire a magazine full, unload gun, and check for leading. No leading? Good. Keep shooting. Leading? Bad. Clean the barrel and hit the drawing board.

.452 is a size that shoots very nicely through the glocks.

[robertbank]

I've a Glock Gen 3 model 23. I long since replaced the factory barrel. Shooting reloads and factory glock barrels are a bad combination to begin with. In addition, Glock doesn't recommend lead bullets in their barrels! The factory chambers are oversize so they will feed anything and everything thrown at them. This is good for a combat designed pistol. In addition, the cartridge head isn't fully supported. In a high pressure round like the 40, repeated working of the brass because of this and the sloppy chamber will eventually cause a blow-up.

79025






Do yourselves a favor and pony up for a good fully supported barrel with a tight(er) chamber.

79026


Ben those are old pictures of old Glock barrels probably from Gen 1 or 2. Gen 3 and 4 barrels fully support the head case.

Here are pictures of the support given on three different generations of Glocks:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a387/robertbank/Glock.jpg (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/robertbank/media/Glock.jpg.html)

Bob

[Tom W.]

Thanks. That's what my .45 sizing die is. And I use the White Label CR lube for everything, with no leading in any of my rifles or handguns. But this is my first Glock, pretty much my first polymer pistol, with the exception of my 22/45.

[Love Life]

With that combo, you should be having some lead free fun. Just check your barrel after the 1st magazine or 2 shot through it to verify you are lead free.

[robertbank]

Tom just use some common sense. Glock manuals say don't use lead but so do others. If you do see leading stop and go to plated bullets. or buy an aftermarket barrel. If you find you don't like the Glock, sell it and buy a M&P. Much better ergonomics and you get standard rifling.

Take Care

Bob

[revwitha9]

Shot thousands of boolits through my G19. Never a kaboom. I'm a clean freak with my guns, so I always cleaned it after a day at the range. I never did completely resolve all leading issues before selling it to my brother. I'm really not a Glock fan.

[yondering]

Shot thousands of boolits through my G19. Never a kaboom. I'm a clean freak with my guns, so I always cleaned it after a day at the range. I never did completely resolve all leading issues before selling it to my brother. I'm really not a Glock fan.

Probably needed larger bullets. Did you ever slug the bore? My G19 has a .357" bore, and it's one of the newer gen4 models. I suspect many (or all of them?) have the European .357" bore size, rather than the .355" common in the US.

The Glock barrels like cast bullets a little larger too, I've found they work better at .002-.003" larger than bore, .001" wasn't quite enough. I size at .360" for my G19.

[revwitha9]

Probably needed larger bullets. Did you ever slug the bore? My G19 has a .357" bore, and it's one of the newer gen4 models. I suspect many (or all of them?) have the European .357" bore size, rather than the .355" common in the US.

The Glock barrels like cast bullets a little larger too, I've found they work better at .002-.003" larger than bore, .001" wasn't quite enough. I size at .360" for my G19.

Yondering, truth is I slugged my Gen. 3 at .355. Sized boolits from .356 to .358 with minimal results. I experimented with lube, loads, and even how I held my tongue when I shot; but never seemed to completely resolve the leading issue. In retrospect, I think my problem all along was the alloy hardness. I don't cast any pistol boolits harder than 10 bhn these days with no leading problems at all.. But then again, I don't have any polygonal barrels anymore either.

[yondering]

Yeah, the polygonal bores do need a bit harder alloy, 10 bhn is a little soft.

Or just powder coat the bullets, and shoot them soft or hard; that seems to cure any issues in Glock barrels. I've gone that direction myself, and don't intend to ever lube a bullet again.

[FergusonTO35]

Well, looks like I'm now wading through the lead boolits in Glock swamp too. Went to a shop yesterday to look around. They had a practically new Generation 4 Glock 19 under the glass. Asked to see it out of curiosity. Looks like the previous owner put a box of shells through it and then traded it back. No signs of wear whatsoever and the factory lube was still there, only some powder residue in the frame to suggest it had ever been fired. I asked how much, and he said $400.00 and would do a layaway on it. SOLD!!:drinks:

The 19 will be our home defense and range gun. The first thing it's going to get is a three dot style rear sight. I'll just shoot condoms and plated for awhile to get everything smoothed out. I'll probably end up getting a plain black finish aftermarket barrel for it for boolit use at some point. I also intend to get the useless finger grooves smoothed out and the backstrap reshaped a bit.

[Walstr]

Greetings;
Apologize in advance for appearance of invading this specific thread, but didn't find a better place? Happy to relocate as advised.

I'm prepping to reload commercial 9mm 120gr hardcast lead in a new Lone Wolf barrel.. What 3 best powders to consider? I have plenty of Unique, but what would fill the case more 'safely' re: volume? I'm sure Titegroup is faster/cleaner, but may permit multiple charges due to small volumes. I'm using Dillon 550B. Thanks much.

[robertbank]

231 will flow better out of your powder measure than Unique. For IDPA 4.1 gr of 231 under my 125gr boolits works very well. Double charging any powder in the 9MM case is pretty difficult to do and if you are just a little careful double charging should not be a worry. Universal Clays and HS 6 also work well in 9MM.

Take Care

Bob

[Love Life]

To be honest, I could care less about how much case volume the powder takes up. Whatever I have is what gets loaded. Your ultimate "Safety Failsafe" is between your ears.

That being said, HP38/W231 is my favorite 9mm powder.

[yondering]

231 will flow better out of your powder measure than Unique. For IDPA 4.1 gr of 231 under my 125gr boolits works very well. Double charging any powder in the 9MM case is pretty difficult to do and if you are just a little careful double charging should not be a worry. Universal Clays and HS 6 also work well in 9MM.

Take Care

Bob

+1 to these powders; I'll add that WSF is also a really good one that meters well like 231, and performs pretty similar to Unique (as does Universal Clays). Nothing at all wrong with Unique though.

[FergusonTO35]

SR4756 fills the case really well and meters great as does Accurate #5. Honestly, I would use whatever is available to you. Bullseye is my favorite but went extinct well more than a year ago.

[FergusonTO35]

For my soon to be mine Glock 19 I bought a Storm Lake barrel for it today. Anybody like these? Do they tend to work well?

[Tom W.]

I took my Mod 30 to the range Sunday and shot some ammo that I had stashed for my GM. Some of the brass looked like it was just short of case separation.:holysheep It was a about a 50/50 ratio. I did try some factory ammo that did not bulge. I suppose that the brass could have been rather old, or perhaps the load may have been a bit much for the little gun, but I doubt that. Not being used to the pistol, I was shooting a bit low and to the left. My bullet was a Lee 228 gr. rn lead with the CR lube, and no leading was apparent. I do have to say that I enjoy how easily the Glock field strips![smilie=w:

[Love Life]

For my soon to be mine Glock 19 I bought a Storm Lake barrel for it today. Anybody like these? Do they tend to work well?

Glock factory barrels are mirror smooth with a well cut throat and leade. I prefer them to after market barrels for many reasons.

A Glock barrel is like any other barrel. Feed it garbage and it will lead. Take the time to slug it and feed it the right size, alloy, and lube and you will be in hog heaven.

[FergusonTO35]

I agree with you, however I got a very good deal on the SL barrel and figured it would be useful to compare the performance of the two.

[yondering]

I took my Mod 30 to the range Sunday and shot some ammo that I had stashed for my GM. Some of the brass looked like it was just short of case separation.:holysheep It was a about a 50/50 ratio. I did try some factory ammo that did not bulge. I suppose that the brass could have been rather old, or perhaps the load may have been a bit much for the little gun, but I doubt that. Not being used to the pistol, I was shooting a bit low and to the left. My bullet was a Lee 228 gr. rn lead with the CR lube, and no leading was apparent. I do have to say that I enjoy how easily the Glock field strips![smilie=w:

Were you using standard 230gr FMJ load data with that bullet? That Lee 228 RN bullet is a really poor design, that requires deep seating and takes up a lot of case capacity. You must reduce your loads quite a bit for that bullet.

FWIW, that Glock 30 should handle most any flat nose or hollow point bullet out there, and should even handle full wadcutters if loaded right. You won't need a round nose for feeding in that one.

[dabsond]

I thought the concerns about Glocks were the partially unsupported chambers. This would make using any reloads questionable. Not just cast.

[robertbank]

I thought the concerns about Glocks were the partially unsupported chambers. This would make using any reloads questionable. Not just cast.

Glock barrels have been fully supported since the Gen 3's.

Take Care

Bob

[dragon813gt]

There are also pistols that have less support then the first two generation Glocks. Glock bulge is not just a Glock issue.

[Tom W.]

I do think that I'll find a better bullet. The 200 gr SWC that someone gave me loads and shoots very well in the GM, and I'm
going to try a few the next time I get to the range. I dunno if they are Lyman or RCBS bullets, but I'll probably end up with the RCBS mold.

Yondering, I did note the bullet seats really deep, and the lube grove ain't much at all. I'd maybe best shoot those up in my Ruger Blackhawk....

[yondering]

Sounds like you're on the right track Tom. I haven't used the RCBS version, but the Lee 200gr SWC is a really good bullet for these guns, IMO. It's best with the bevel base removed of course.

[mj2evans]

Two case failures in a gen 2 Glock 22 40cal and lead bullets. Second failure resulted in damage to extractor. Switched to plated bullets and never had another issue. These cases were not reloaded over and over, besides were same cases used with plated bullets. I would listen to Glock and not shoot lead in factory barrel but its up to you.

[Tom W.]

I'll find a different bullet. Can't see what good the pistol is if it won't shoot cast. I think Yonderling nailed it for me, most probably excessive pressure from the Lee RN bullet seated deeply.

[supersniper]

Glocks blowing up was not as a result of unsupported chambers.

It was a heat treat issue in the 40's and 45's.

They used the same heat treat processes for the thinner walled chambers as they did with the 9mm's. Made them brittle. Saw one split right in half. Glock would never admit to it though.

Think of the low-serial numbered 1903 Springfield issue.

[Love Life]

Two case failures in a gen 2 Glock 22 40cal and lead bullets. Second failure resulted in damage to extractor. Switched to plated bullets and never had another issue. These cases were not reloaded over and over, besides were same cases used with plated bullets. I would listen to Glock and not shoot lead in factory barrel but its up to you.

Was there any leading in your barrel?

[Catshooter]

Sorry, the title of this thread is The Truth About Glocks and Cast.

So, you know of this heat treat issue how? Seeing one split in half proves what? One what caliber? What load?


Cat

[yondering]

I'll find a different bullet. Can't see what good the pistol is if it won't shoot cast. I think Yonderling nailed it for me, most probably excessive pressure from the Lee RN bullet seated deeply.

Tom, a couple suggestions for different bullets - my favorites are the Mihec 452-200-HP, the Lee 200gr SWC (not the TL version), and a hollow pointed Lee 230 TC with the bevel base milled off. These three shoot really well in my Glock 45 factory barrel, and are the best of any designs I've tried.

[FergusonTO35]

I think the .40 cartridge is often loaded too hot from the factory. Couple that with the fact that many/most of these pistols are just adaptations of existing 9mm designs and a higher than average number are going to fail.

[Walt]

I would like to report that another great cast bullet shooting Glock is in my stable. I made my first trip to the range today with my new long slide G41 45. First, the gun ran like a top and put four different hardball loads into a 20 round 2 1/4" group at 50'. A load with a 235 grain H&G #34 and WST went into a 3" 10 shoot group but the star for me was a commercial 200 LSWC over 4.3 WST. First, 5 shots with the gun rested over my range bag formed a nice round 1 1/4" group. Shooting offhand, again at 50', the remaining 45 rounds of that load went into 2 7/8" with no signs of leading. I'm a happy camper :).

[Love Life]

I want a G41 REAL bad.

[Walt]

I want a G41 REAL bad.

I understand.........but you can't have mine :).

[Love Life]

Can I just borrow it for about 20 years?

[Walt]

Can I just borrow it for about 20 years?

I'm sorry, but no. There's another one at my buddies gun shop though.

[FergusonTO35]

Another good Glock report!

Finally got a chance to shoot the 19 today. From the first round I was shooting it as well as my Ruger SR9C. The adjustable sight is a good addition. I had to adjust it a fair amount over to the right to compensate for my usual habit of pulling my shots to the left. I'm still not used to the football goal post style rear sight. It's certainly minute of bad guy accurate but if I don't make the front dot sit right on the bottom of the goal post I shoot high by about two inches. I have the elevation all the way down too. Maybe more practice will cure that. As strange as it sounds the Glock 19 reminds me alot of the Ruger P95 I used to have. Both are "compact" but still wide as an aircraft carrier.

Function was 100% save for a couple of FTE's from the very mild ammo I was using, 4.6 grains of IMR 4756 with a 124 grain FMJ. I'm going to try a heavier charge next time, it seems that's what the pistol wants. I did try a handful of my standard lead bullet load, 3.5 grains Bullseye under a .357 lead truncated cone. Accuracy was at least as good as jacketed, function was perfect, and I observed no obvious leading. Upon cleaning the barrel seemed to have less fouling than is usually present in my other pistols. When the Storm Lake barrel shows up I will use it for high volume boolit shooting but it certainly seems that lead bullet use is ok in this paroticular factory barrel. The Glock and KCI mags both functioned the same, 100%. Very pleased with this pistol so far!

[Love Life]

Glock barrels are mirror smooth and the polygonal rifling is easy on the boolits. Yes, if you take 5 bhn boolits and fire them at full house 9mm, 45 acp, 40 s&w, and 10mm velocities then you will have mucho leading and possibly issues.

If, however, you use a quality boolit cast of good alloy with good lube then you will have magic. Additionally the polygonal rifling give a better seal which can prevent gas getting by the boolit and causing gas cutting on the boolit.

It's right there in front of our eyes and nobody utilizes it because some people had kabooms (I honestly attribute 99% of those stories to mouth breathers doing the wrong thing and blaming the gun).

I'm glad to hear of your success with your Glock and I'd love to hear a comparison report when you shoot your new barrel.

[yondering]

I think you nailed it, good post. Truth is, factory Glock barrels are much higher quality than most aftermarket barrels, but a lot of people are more willing to buy into the hysteria instead of figuring out how to make cast work in the stock barrel.

[Walt]

I think you nailed it, good post. Truth is, factory Glock barrels are higher quality than most aftermarket barrels, but a lot of people are more willing to buy into the hysteria instead of figuring out how to make cast work in the stock barrel.

After 20 years as a confirmed Glock looney I also think the current barrels are the best they have ever been. This is particularly true of the 9mms. Less effort is taken to find a great cast bullet load in the new guns compared to the 1st and 2nd generation. I currently have five 4th Gen guns and with the exception of the 31 (it may never see a lead bullet) they all have been very easy to work with.

[Love Life]

I think you nailed it, good post. Truth is, factory Glock barrels are much higher quality than most aftermarket barrels, but a lot of people are more willing to buy into the hysteria instead of figuring out how to make cast work in the stock barrel.

I never could bring myself to shell out the extra cheese for an aftermarket barrel. So I used the factory barrels with nary an issue. It wasn't until I started coating my boolits that I looked more closely at the whole barrel thing.

Fact is, polygonal rifling (I fired quite a few brands with polygonal rifling) is much easier on the boolit (as shown by recovered boolits) and accuracy is on par with the cut rifled barrels. Sights seem to make the biggest difference there.

Cut rifling, the edges of the rifling actually cut into the boolit itself. That's a condition that's ripe for failures and issues. I've still got more testing to do...

Sorry for the thread drift.

[FergusonTO35]

No apology needed, the additional experience is most helpful. I've always found that many, maybe most, commercial cast boolits for 9mm will lead in some or all guns regardless of the rifling. They tend to be the same size as j-words and use a hard, crayon like lube that doesn't coat the bore hardly at all. If you're just making mild target loads they are usually ok but push them fast and/or use a gun that is somewhat overbore and instant leading.

Come to think of it I haven't had any leading problems since I started pouring my own boolits. The worst I ever get is an occasional sliver dislodged by the cleaning brush.

[FergusonTO35]

Fired the 19 some more today at 20 feet. The pistol groups well but is hitting about 2" high at that distance. Is that common? I have the factory adjustable rear sight turned down to the lowest level and am aiming with the front dot sitting on the bottom of the goal post. The load today was 124 grain FMJ over 4.0 grains Accurate #2. Hopefully can try it with boolits again tomorrow.

[Love Life]

Fired the 19 some more today at 20 feet. The pistol groups well but is hitting about 2" high at that distance. Is that common? I have the factory adjustable rear sight turned down to the lowest level and am aiming with the front dot sitting on the bottom of the goal post. The load today was 124 grain FMJ over 4.0 grains Accurate #2. Hopefully can try it with boolits again tomorrow.

Still shooting the 124 gr FMJ? If so, and if it's safe to go up in powder charge, I'd give it some more juice.

[FergusonTO35]

I can, although this is the sort of load I normally shoot in 9mm. My usual do everything 9mm load is a 122 grain LTC over 3.5 grains bullseye and Remington primer for a chrono'd 985 fps. Do you think that the pistol would shoot POI with a stronger load? I suppose I could just get some of the plastic fixed sights and trim the notch to suit my needs.

[Walt]

I would shoot your 122 LTC and 3.5 Bullseye load (I like that load) using the sights as any other post and notch sight when shooting for accuracy. Most of my 9mm Glocks shoot about 2" high at 50' with the standard rear or the adjustable set low. The dot has use at in your face distances where precise point of impact means very little but speed is important, other wise I pay no attention to it.

[Love Life]

My full size Glocks hit POA at 25 yds, but things fluctuate a bit with shorter and longer distances.

20 ft is what...7 yds? Try sooting at 15 and 25 yds and see where the POI is.

[FergusonTO35]

Hmm, good idea. If the weather cooperates I should be able to try it again tonight with boolits.

[Love Life]

Did you get a chance to shoot? I think my favorite boolit for the 9mm was the RCBS 115 gr RN lubed with Speed Green. I then switched to the 124 gr GC boolit since I was shooting it in several 9mm pistols at the time.

[FergusonTO35]

I managed to put one mag through it last night before the rain came, 3.3 grains 700X with 122 grain LTC. Stretched the distance out to ten yards, the fading light would not permit anything greater. I managed to bullseye it a couple of times but also made some nice clusters high and to the left. On the plus side there was not a hint of leading in the bore of the factory barrel, if anything it looked somewhat cleaner than the FMJ loads did. The Storm Lake barrel hasn't showed up yet, should be any day now.

I went ahead and ordered some things I think will help the situation based on my experience with the Ruger SR9c. An extra power striker spring should help the mushy, stagey, trigger pull. The 6.1 mm rear sight should help bring the POI down some. I can trim the bottom of the notch until it is perfect for me. Also, the gen. 4 dual recoil spring is just plain overkill for the mild lead boolit loads I shoot. I ordered a factory gen. 3 recoil spring and adapter for same. Hopefully this stuff will get it shooting right!

[Love Life]

Use this target!! :kidding:

[FergusonTO35]

So that's been the problem all along!!

[jakec]

Use this target!! :kidding:

best target ever!!

[Love Life]

I always keep a couple in my range bag so when it's my turn to post targets I will post those up. The look on people's faces when they finally head downrange and look at their target is priceless!!

[9.3X62AL]

I always keep a couple in my range bag so when it's my turn to post targets I will post those up. The look on people's faces when they finally head downrange and look at their target is priceless!!

SO not right.......

[FergusonTO35]

...yet entirely appropriate.

[FergusonTO35]

The Storm Lake barrel showed up yesterday. It fits perfectly and seems very well made. Rounds drop into it just fine, however the throat seems a bit tight. In the Glock barrel you can drop a round into the chamber, then turn it upside down and it will fall right out. With the SL barrel you have to pluck the round out, the throat does seem to pinch the boolit slightly. Maybe running some FMJ through it will smooth it out a bit. I cleaned the Glock barrel before trying the SL barrel in the slide. Once again I was amazed at how little fouling came out of it, I had previously put 25 boolits through it. I can see why alot of folks prefer to stick with them exclusively!

[Love Life]

Glock chambers will have a looser tolerance due to their purpose in life. They are combat guns and designed that way. The looser chamber allows easy chambering during long shot strings (heavy fouling) and adverse conditions like mud, sand, etc. Mr. Glock designed a very well thought out pistol that excels at what it was designed for.

Additionally, the manufacture of the Glock barrels gives them an incredibly smooth interior finish along with a great throat/leade. I stick with Glock barrels because they are the bomb. The shoot well and clean easy. All it takes is finding the right boolit size/alloy/lube combo and you have magic.

[Walt]

I stick with Glock barrels because they are the bomb. The shoot well and clean easy. All it takes is finding the right boolit size/alloy/lube combo and you have magic.[/QUOTE]

This says it all.....too bad some folks won't put in the time to figure it out.