Denominational Issues

[wv109323]

As we all know there are several issues/subjects that well studied people of the Bible disagree upon. I don't want to discuss the issues themselves but why there is disagreement among believers?
Should not Bible believing Christians be very close in agreement on these topics? Do you believe that one side is right and the other side wrong?
Is it a tool of the Devil to keep Christians divided over issues?
Why are people so strong natured about their beliefs?
The Bible says we should study and be guided by the Holy Spirit,then why is there diverse opinion on subjects?

[jmort]

There is agreement on core issues of salvation as a general matter.
The rest is not critical to salvation and is where battles are pitched.

[Thundarstick]

Is it a tool of the Devil to keep Christians divided over issues?
Why are people so strong natured about their beliefs?
The Bible says we should study and be guided by the Holy Spirit,then why is there diverse opinion on subjects?

Deception a tool of Satan, really? What if I could convince you, you only have believe to be saved? What if I can convince you that (fill in the blank with your favorite sin) really isn't one, we just don't understand who the writer was speaking to, or what he really meant? What if I could convince you that no matter how you live, or what you do that Jesus loves you so much you could never fail away? What if I could convince you that you have to accept every sinful lifestyle under the sun because God has changed and that OT stuff don't count any more, that is all love love love and there's never going to be a punishment? What if I could convince you that only part of the Bible is true, and you'll have to read 40 denominational authors and figure out what is true or applies toady? Etc etc etc! There are Christian denominations that hold many of these ideas. That's why.

[StolzerandSons]

Have you ever heard of Mr. and Mrs. Flat living in Flatland?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvPHGYZRnvo
Denominations are born from our own perceptions. Or said another way, denominations are what someone(or group) thinks God revealed to them.

[jcwit]

It all started with Martin Luther!

[StolzerandSons]

It all started with Martin Luther!
Only for the Catholics. I bet if you ask an Independent Fundamental Baptist if he thinks his church is a reformation church you would get a different answer. I bet they would tell you that their church has always been there even before the reformation.

[Tom W.]

Yup, us IFB are hard headed. It's when we step back and take a breath and dig deeper we start to say " But what about this?" Been there, done that. The pastor is still a very good friend of mine, but I can no longer accept some of the beliefs. It's not so much the core beliefs, but some of the peripheral visions.

[Wayne Smith]

That and, when the leadership goes liberal either the ones who truly believe what the Bible says either take over (Southern Baptists recent history) or leave and found a new denomination, or sub denomination (Presbyterians have this habit). The organization needs to respond to official heresy some way.

[claude]

One huge issue with denominational division is that the majority of Christians let somebody else do their homework for them and rely on what a man says.

"let no man deceive you".... (and this includes ourselves)1Corinthians 3:18, Eph. 5:6, 2Thes 2:3, and 1 John 3:7

The most difficult individual for the Spirit to teach is he whose wine bottle is so full and so tight and so sere that a truth cannot enter, we must remain pliable, watered with that Spiritual water that lets the potter work the clay.

YMMV

[DCP]

It all started with Martin Luther!

Here is the History
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_den1.htm

[jmort]

"One huge issue with denominational division is that the majority of Christians let somebody else do their homework for them and rely on what a man says."

To claude, did God appoint you to teach, preach, pastor, etc??? It appears not, as you are advocating what the Bible specifically rejects.

Few, very few, are equipped to discern what is essential to The Faith. So while your post sounds sounds "deep", it is unrealistic. The post is an example of what is wrong with the church. And not Bibical as well. Sure; Study to show thyself approved, but keep your ears open. Do your part and move forward on with what you have been taught, with the Bible as your guide. Take what makes sense and reject the rest in light of the Bible.

Ephesians 4:11-16King James Version (KJV)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

[Thundarstick]

It appears not, as you are advocating what the Bible specifically rejects.

What's the OP advocating again, I saw all question marks.

But speaking the truth in love The problem here is there's a bunch of folks who arn't going to hear the truth in love, or any other way for that matter!

The real question is, what it take to be a follower of Christ? I think most of us can get real close to the same on that!

A new question. Do divisions actually bring more to Christ by diverse doctoring that isn't necessary for salvation, or do we really believe that they are necessary for ones salvation?

[jmort]

What I am stating, as a fact beyond dispute, if you believe in Bibilical guidance, is:


Ephesians 4:11-16King James Version (KJV)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

The idea that you just make it up as you go is a joke. Find a teacher, there are a lot of good ones, and measure what they teach against the Bible. My post is directed at the post from claude, just make it up for yourself. No, get some good teaching and press it against the Bible to make sure it is sound teaching. You are reiterating my point from post #2. Have you been called by God to teach us??? I have not.

[jcwit]

Only for the Catholics. I bet if you ask an Independent Fundamental Baptist if he thinks his church is a reformation church you would get a different answer. I bet they would tell you that their church has always been there even before the reformation.

Sorry guy, Martin started it all regardless of your beliefe. There were no IFB's prior to the reformation, it's where the break up all started, and is still going on!

You trying to tell us that all these denominationals exited prior to the reformation, Give me a break.

Prove it here with links to support your thinking!

[jcwit]

Here is the History
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_den1.htm

YUP! That's the way it went!

[claude]

What I am stating, as a fact beyond dispute, if you believe in Bibilical guidance, is:


"let no man deceive you".... (and this includes ourselves)1Corinthians 3:18, Eph. 5:6, 2Thes 2:3, and 1 John 3:7

I believe you pretty much proved my point.

[wv109323]

There were Baptist before the reformation. They were known as Anti-baptist because they did not believe that baptism and church membership was equal to salvation. The Catholic Church sprinkles you and you become a member of the church. That with following church doctrine gets you into heaven.
The Baptists were persecuted along with the Jews during the Inquisition. A good book on the subject is "The Trail of Blood".

[xdmalder]

The biggest reason is the concept of hell as an eternal place of damnation and torment. The fear of never seeing ones loved ones who have passed have most people blindly locked into a belief based solely on so my loved ones will not suffer. The concept of a hell for people is a idea from pagan religions. With the threat of hell, leaders of a religion have a huge amount of influence over their subjects.

Also the Catholic Church was one of the biggest first splits in Christian history. Before that there were many sects and denominations in Judeo history. It all starts with wanting control

Also the Father has called each and every one of us to be a teacher. It is our and ours alone responsibility to teach our children in the ways of Scripture.

By the way, there are many teachings and passages in Scripture that lend authority to universal salvation.

[William Yanda]

One teacher I heard described it as what happens when you "major on the minors". It's what happens when the focus is on a man, not the Savior.

[Ickisrulz]

What I am stating, as a fact beyond dispute, if you believe in Bibilical guidance, is:


Ephesians 4:11-16King James Version (KJV)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

The idea that you just make it up as you go is a joke. Find a teacher, there are a lot of good ones, and measure what they teach against the Bible. My post is directed at the post from claude, just make it up for yourself. No, get some good teaching and press it against the Bible to make sure it is sound teaching. You are reiterating my point from post #2. Have you been called by God to teach us??? I have not.

Unfortunately, many people end up stuck in dogma they learned as a child or young person and never progressed beyond this point. Everything they read in scripture is made to fit within their core of beliefs and there is very little room for them to learn. There is also the belief that the Holy Spirit will somehow reveal all the secrets the Bible holds without the need for real study in history, cultural situations, etc. So in reality, how many people seek out good teachers? How many people just seek out churches where the pastor tells them what they already know or want to hear? Not all churches even have a real pastor/teacher (more than likely a single office).

We are so fortunate today that the best scholarship that has ever existed on the Bible is available for purchase or obtaining a library card. There are also online college classes for those inclined. Today's Christian can learn so much more than what they receive in their local church.

[StolzerandSons]

Sorry guy, Martin started it all regardless of your beliefe. There were no IFB's prior to the reformation, it's where the break up all started, and is still going on!

You trying to tell us that all these denominationals exited prior to the reformation, Give me a break.

Prove it here with links to support your thinking!
This right here goes to the exact questions the OP was asking. You believe that the Catholic church has told you the only history of all the churches but as I said using IFBs as a single example but certainly not the only example, other churches don't accept or believe the Catholic version of church history. You responded in the exact way that creates the divisions found among Christians.

I am not IFB, I was just using them as an example to show that what you said is one of the ways we ended up with many denominations so I really don't have a cause to try to prove anything but since I know you won't let this go I will provide you with two references and you can research it for yourself or not as you see fit.

The Story of the Baptists in all Ages and Countries - Rev. Richard B. Cook D.D.
https://books.google.com/books?id=_YE3AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Trail of Blood by J.M. Carroll
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Books/trail_of_blood_jm_carroll.htm

BTW if it all started with Luther then would you please explain the Greek Orthodox(Eastern Orthodox) split that happened almost 500 years before Luther? Again this is just one example of a pre-Luther denomination, I can show you many others.

[DCP]

This right here goes to the exact questions the OP was asking. You believe that the Catholic church has told you the only history of all the churches but as I said using IFBs as a single example but certainly not the only example, other churches don't accept or believe the Catholic version of church history. You responded in the exact way that creates the divisions found among Christians.

I am not IFB, I was just using them as an example to show that what you said is one of the ways we ended up with many denominations so I really don't have a cause to try to prove anything but since I know you won't let this go I will provide you with two references and you can research it for yourself or not as you see fit.

The Story of the Baptists in all Ages and Countries - Rev. Richard B. Cook D.D.
https://books.google.com/books?id=_YE3AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Trail of Blood by J.M. Carroll
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Books/trail_of_blood_jm_carroll.htm

BTW if it all started with Luther then would you please explain the Greek Orthodox(Eastern Orthodox) split that happened almost 500 years before Luther? Again this is just one example of a pre-Luther denomination, I can show you many others.

Did you even read this

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_den1.htm


I believe the Greek Orthodox(Eastern Orthodox) is not considered Protestant

Last I am not Roman Catholic

[TRM]

Denomination theology. There won't be any baptist, Catholic ,Lutheran or any other denominations in heaven. If yout not washed in the blood your not going...

[jcwit]

Denomination theology. There won't be any baptist, Catholic ,Lutheran or any other denominations in heaven. If yout not washed in the blood your not going...

This is true!

[jcwit]

There were Baptist before the reformation. They were known as Anti-baptist because they did not believe that baptism and church membership was equal to salvation. The Catholic Church sprinkles you and you become a member of the church. That with following church doctrine gets you into heaven.
The Baptists were persecuted along with the Jews during the Inquisition. A good book on the subject is "The Trail of Blood".

Wrong!

Martin Luther started the reformation in 1517!

The Anti Baptist was started in 1525 by Felix Mantz!

Look it up easy to find, took me less that 30 seconds.

The teaching of the Catholic has nothing to do with the facts!

Little do you know what is required to become a member of the Catholic Church! Lot more than being sprinkled on ones head. Never have been Baptised in the Catholic Church, was Baptised in the Lutheran Church 74 years ago, I guess anyway, so says the records!

[StolzerandSons]

Did you even read this

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_den1.htm


I believe the Greek Orthodox(Eastern Orthodox) is not considered Protestant

Last I am not Roman Catholic
Perhaps you read the title of the thread wrong, we aren't discussing Protestant versus Catholic we are talking about different denominations, so yes Greek Orthodox(Eastern Orthodox) falls under the category of a denomination.

To answer your question yes I read it and it is grossly incomplete on church denominational history and proves nothing. First it says that the Catholic Church started circa 30 when that can't be historically proven. Even the historians that stretch it a bit only give a date of the early 300's and most documented sources say the mid 400's then it jumps to Lutherans in 1517...kind of leaves out some of the major points of history don't you think? I think there might have been a few people who believed differently before Luther or did the Inquisition start in 12th century France because the Catholic Church thought it would be a good idea to persecute everyone who already believed what they believed?

[Char-Gar]

Human nature is a tough nut to crack. The Jews in Jesus time were divided in theology and doctrine. The early Christian church also quickly divided in theology and doctrine. There was an attempt to codify into a common understanding the basic tenants of the Christian faith in the early Nicean creed.

Despite an attempt to have a common theology and doctrine and one church, human continue to divide and divide again over theology and doctrine. That is the nature of the human being.

If Christians of all stripes are to live in harmony with each other, as they are instructed to do, that requires a think and let think approach without judgment, condemnation or hostility. When judgment, condemnation and hostility emerges from difference, that dear friends is indeed the work of Satan.

Most likely, this thread will devolve into conflict, hissing and spitting at each other. Satan will enjoy following this thread.

[1johnlb]

As we all know there are several issues/subjects that well studied people of the Bible disagree upon. I don't want to discuss the issues themselves but why there is disagreement among believers?
Should not Bible believing Christians be very close in agreement on these topics? Do you believe that one side is right and the other side wrong?
Is it a tool of the Devil to keep Christians divided over issues?
Why are people so strong natured about their beliefs?
The Bible says we should study and be guided by the Holy Spirit,then why is there diverse opinion on subjects?

Why a difference? religion instead of a relationship

Religion is the search for God, polluted with leaven, always making up excuses why parts of scripture is flawed or doesn't happen today, because it doesn't happen in their building, calling everyone else that the scripture is fulfilled in sick or twisted. Religion gives you a 12 step program, to god and they never find Him. Jesus warned us of these people. Just because they have a belief doesn't mean they believe.

Relationship is based on having found Him or at least been found by Him. As the old song says, " He walks with me and He talks with me" . Even Jesus constantly seperated Himself from the crowds to relate and pray with the Father and IF Jesus is in you He still does.

If thechurch from your perspective doesn't look like New testament scripture, it maybe time to get a new perspective or at least allow the Holy Spirit to work through you to change it.

[popper]

The concept of a hell for people is a idea from pagan religions. Uh, where did that come from? Scripturally, it's the 'outer darkness' 'lake of fire' 'hades', etc. genesis alludes to the same, (sic) gonna get tossed out the second time too. The reference of the rich man and poor man does indicate some temporary 'holding place'. Also alluded in other scripture references. It's ana baptist, not anti. My understanding (yes, married a Catholic) that non-protestants (and some protestants) believe it is a spiritual 'protection blessing', not a believer's baptism. Luther's argument was against purgatory and payment to make it easier for the deceased. I was sprinkled, Believer's Baptism as a kid, immersed as an adult. None made me a member of any 'club'. Only accepting Jesus Christ as my Savior.

[bob33809]

I was Catholic for 60 years. Only last year did I find my true God, the one of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The different denominations are rules of men not Christ. All you need to to be received into the Kingdom of Heaven is to be born again. The Bible is what will give you the truth to reach Heaven. Jesus is the Light

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Thundarstick]

If Christians of all stripes are to live in harmony with each other, as they are instructed to do, that requires a think and let think approach without judgment, condemnation or hostility. When judgment, condemnation and hostility emerges from difference, that dear friends is indeed the work of Satan.

This! This! This!


I go where I go, worship were I do, and believe what I believe, because that is where the spirit leads me! This doesn't give me the rite to condemn anyone else. We're just not all in the same place at the same time.

[rl69]

man loves the law. It shows him how much better he is then his brother. Find which law you you like best and follow it. Then point out how much better you are then the ones who follow a diferent law. That what Christ taught right.

[Ickisrulz]

man loves the law. It shows him how much better he is then his brother. Find which law you you like best and follow it. Then point out how much better you are then the ones who follow a diferent law. That what Christ taught right.

When you say "law" I take it you mean rules to control behavior (impart guilt?) rather than basic doctrine?

Fortunately, I have never attended a church that was legalistic.

[Blackwater]

Human nature is a tough nut to crack. The Jews in Jesus time were divided in theology and doctrine. The early Christian church also quickly divided in theology and doctrine. There was an attempt to codify into a common understanding the basic tenants of the Christian faith in the early Nicean creed.

Despite an attempt to have a common theology and doctrine and one church, human continue to divide and divide again over theology and doctrine. That is the nature of the human being.

If Christians of all stripes are to live in harmony with each other, as they are instructed to do, that requires a think and let think approach without judgment, condemnation or hostility. When judgment, condemnation and hostility emerges from difference, that dear friends is indeed the work of Satan.

Most likely, this thread will devolve into conflict, hissing and spitting at each other. Satan will enjoy following this thread.

Amen, Char-Gar! It just seems our nature (not God's, but OURS!) to argue and separate ourselves. There may even be an element, great or small, in many, who want to think of themselves as the "elite" who have a TRUE understanding of our Lord.

But MHO is that Christ advised us to always be humble before Him and our fellow man as well, and being humble means we have to listen to our brothers and sisters, even if we think differently than they do. And it also, I think, means that we are to love them because they have faith. Not all realize when they're making even grievous mistakes in theology. But I suspect we all do. Even ME!!! But if we're simply humble enough to listen to our fellow believers, we may learn something to edify ourselves, and maybe ... just maybe .... find a way to edify them. But it requires listening ears on both sides, of course, and that's something we're not conditioned to do, and possibly, especially in these divisive times.

But any time we can bring ourselves to at least listen to others, with an intent to hear and perceive what they're saying, rather than to what we can make of it ..... well, then, I think we're doing the Lord's bidding to us, and probably, helping ourselves more than we'll ever help another. I hear lots of stuff that I either don't agree with or maybe don't understand fully. But I listen, nevertheless. How can I learn if I don't truly understand what a person means by what he's saying? And how can I help someone if I'm not SURE I know what he's meaning by his words? Very simply, I can't. And if we're to benefit from "studying to show thyself approved," as Christ admonished us to do, via discussion of differing perceptions, we MUST lend a real listening and discerning ear, and if we're not sure we understand, then it's incumbent upon us to ask questions until we DO understand what they mean by what they say.

Nothing is more common than we humans misunderstanding what others say. It's from this that we derive arguments so quickly and easily and consistently. We can come to understand each other, and even agree to disagree on some points, IF we simply use the advice Christ gave us to GAIN that understanding of each other. Arguing doesn't serve that end at all, and argument comes from OUR wills, and nature, and NOT from God's! I'd think this would be rather obvious.

We often, and maybe moreso now than ever, seem to prefer arguing to really understanding each other. Some of that may come, depending on the individual and the situation, from a feeling of inadequacy masquerading as "confidence" and "surety." That's certainly a common human trait! Some may come from simple impatience on our or others' parts. Arguments can come from many, many sources, but none of them really come from God. Christ himself taught us, or at least tried to, to seek truth. He did NOT encourage us to ASSUME that we already had it!

IMO, only the truly humble CAN really learn. A humble heart is, at least in my thinking and experience, the greatest source of edification and knowledge and wisdom that has ever existed. When we're humble, we're averse to simple argument, and don't get offended just because someone disagrees with us. This automatically makes it hard for us to become embroiled in a common argument, or from falling into one for our pleasure or to hide our uncertainties.

Theology is important, but being able to treat it with the proper respect, and acknowledge up front, that we'll all differ, is hard to do for us all. But it's always worthwhile .... pretty much like Christ said it'd be.

And FWIW, I believe that there's a whole lot of disagreement in theological principles in EVERY church that exists. Most have the simple good grace not to insist that everyone believe as they do. This is how good, successful churches grow and do the things that churches are supposed to do. I'm a Baptist, but there are certain tenets of traditional Baptist theology or practice that I am not terribly comfortable with, nor truly believe. But I'm humble enough to listen, and who knows? I may wind up changing my mind on some issue yet again, as I've done a number of times in the past, once God had prepared me to understand some tenet more fully.

We all change and learn as we go forward in life. But we have to LET that happen! I don't believe any of us will ever have the "Last Word" on any tenet that Christ tried so hard and so ably to teach us. It's we error prone "students" that have great trouble discerning His true meaning, sometimes, because we're so wrapped up in what we WANT it to mean. Only a pure heart can discern the Bible's true meaning. And who among us has an unblemished True Heart like Christ had? It certainly isn't ME!!! So how can I be anything BUT humble? What else could ever be appropriate for a poor sinner like me????

This is yet another of the many reasons I've long thought that humility (not mousiness, but true humility) was THE most prominent character trait of a real, mature Christian. I hate theological arguments, but sometimes, I just have to shrug, and realize that they may be necessary along the way to True Understanding. Maybe we have to EARN our understanding, and putting up with occasional arguments may be the price of admission to greater understanding???? If anyone has all the answers, let's hear them, because I certainly don't have them. But I'll be seeking them until I leave this earth, and I'll stay in a state of wonder and awe when I find some little something that hits me like a ton of bricks, when I've been prepared to receive it. Sure helps keep me humble!!!

[rl69]

I grew up in the Lutheran church. went threw the confermation classes,studied the bible,I received a good understanding of God. After I became man i started to search for my own way. I have found the biggest deference's in denominations is law. Not just " it's wrong for women to cut their hair" but " you have to be baptized to go to heaven"

In my search I have found Jesus Christ the reason for all of this. I'm not saying I have it all figured out but I know where I'm heading when he calls me home.

[jmort]

God has sent us teachers, like Paul. Why not listen to the teachers that God has sent us. I do not believe it is inherent that the Body of Christ be in dischord. Remember that Peter was convinced that non-Jews were sinners forever. Peter was led to change his opinion. Paul was sent to non-Jews. Once the dust settled, then neither Paul nor Peter were conflicted, but were of one accord. They knew and taught that there was but one Gospel and that changing it in any way was an abomination. There is but one Gospel, and we need to follow it. We should speak with one voice.

[Thundarstick]

Gal 2:11-12

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Is it because we, like Peter, fear the ridiculing of others?

[jmort]

This passage states that James feared for his life. Peter held false beliefs and God fixed that in short order by virtue of a dream.

[GhostHawk]

Man has had 2000 years to screw up religion. As usual he has done a dang fine job of it.

IMO legalistic views, splitting hairs, obsession with minor details all lead to fractures.

If you pick a bible, read what Jesus said, work on accepting him fully. All the rest of this is dross. It will all float to the top and be skimmed off on some day. Along with I suspect a lot of people who consider themselves christian but are really only trying for an hour on sunday. And maybe not that much then.

Proof I have none. Jesus loves us, this I know, the bible tells me it is so.
It is not our strength, or intelligence that will save us. It is his, and our belief in our Lord and his promises. Splitting hairs endlessly or debating the fine points seems to me to drive more people apart than it brings together.

If we are truly christian, we should understand our brothers well enough to forgive them before the need is there. If we can understand their confusion, pain, doubt, fear.
We can forgive them anything. And show them only love. Seems to me that is what Jesus was trying to say.

A wise man once told me "be prepared to forgive anyone you like at least 2 major faults. For if you are not willing to do so you will have no close friends"

I think it should be more than that. We should be willing to forgive a few for the Lord as well. Brother Blackwater I am going to pick on you here sir. Forgive me. Know that I love you.

But I don't love your run on wall of text posts. But I forgive them. And I read them anyway. I force myself to. How can I say I love you if I am not willing to hear you?


Same with denomination. It matters not to me if a person is Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Babtist, Morman, or Luthern. I have known people of all faiths who lived their life the very best they could. I have also seen some faiths break up familys and destroy homes. I have not a lot of faith in some of their members.

See my point? Done right, the other person never even knows. Because you forgive totally, with ever saying a word. If you want to call yourself a Christian.


I am pretty sure that I am not there yet. But I am trying Lord. I believe. To God be the glory.
But what do I know, I am just a self educated farm boy who stumbled into town and stayed.
I have made most of the mistakes in the book. Listen to your heart, it knows the way.

[Thundarstick]

Peter held false beliefs and God fixed that in short order

So they ALL didn't believe and teach the same thing until God fixed Peters thinking? IE someone gave up their thinking?

[Lloyd Smale]

I don't know if it was started with luther or not. the catholic church had some splitting within itself and some say it isn't so because there still considered catholics. Bottom line is the BIG split was with luther. Now it would be hard to argue with if all that happened was he split off and all the members of his church agreed with him and there was two churches. But that sure isn't the case. Every time someone wanted power or didn't like one of the rules of the luthern church or other protestant churches they made up there own rules and own interpretation of the bible. Also if you check into old Luther youll find that he was no better then the catholic priest that today are slammed for being pedophiles. He wasn't the holy man some want to make him out to be. Was there bishops and cardinals and even popes that were no better? Bet your life! Luther was just a man who craved attention and power. The catholic church saw through him and wouldn't give it to him so he found a way to get it himself. All that said some will think that I feel superior because I'm a catholic and that's far from the truth. theres good catholics and bad catholics just like theres good protestants and bad protestants. I have ALOT more respect for a GOOD protestant that does more then lip service then I do some hypocrite catholic that partys all Saturday night with his girlfriend and shows up to church sunday morning with his wife and children.

What I have the biggest problem with isn't the Baptist, lutherns, Methodists ect that are good church going people who try to lead a good life, its the hypocrite who comes on here trying to look all knowlegable about the bible or argues for his chosen profession but the only effort he puts in is over the internet. To lazy to even go to church on sunday. Or the guy who reads the bible and thinks hes got the correct interpretation that everyone before him for over 2000 years just couldn't see. So smart in fact that he thinks all the organized religions are wrong and uses that for any excuse to sleep in on sunday. I sure don't think going to church buys your way to heaven. Only being a Christian does that. But the fact that some don't have an hour a week to dedicate just to Jesus shows me that your surely not a Christian. I don't care if you spend 8 hours by yourself reading the bible every week because if your doing it all alone with no other opinions your just reading a book. Just like the hundreds of splits in the protestant faith you too will just twist it to fit what you want to believe. Now I'm sure I'm going to get some comments on this. Bring them on. But i don't want to get into any arguments here so I'm not going to even bother replying. I know nothing i said was wrong.
It all started with Martin Luther!

[Hogtamer]

Gentlemen, we are speaking of the bride of Christ. Would you talk of another man's wife with scorn and condemnation? Let your gentleness be known to all men, for the Lord is at hand. Whatever things are true, noble, just; whatever things are pure, lovely and of good report; if there is ANY virture, if there is ANYTHING praiseworthy, meditate on these things.

[1johnlb]

If a person has always been lost, does he know he is lost?

If a lost man guides another lost man, aren't they both still lost?

Saul was lost and was guided by lost men, only in his encounter on the road to Damascus did he realize he was lost. So I guess I have to just overlook some folks who haven't made it to the road to Damascus yet, but think they have.

God bless

[DCP]

One of the difference between roman catholics and Lutherans and Luther biggest problem was.
The roman catholics believed that you are saved only by good works.
Luther believed you were saved by GRACE

Another reason was and why the Baptists broke off was. The Body and Blood of Christ is present when taking Communion. Baptists believe it a symbol.

[Good Cheer]

My solution to dealing with the schism minded is to remind myself how ignorant we all are.
If that doesn't work I try to bite my tongue.
If that doesn't work I tell them how ignorant they are.
And that never works.

[Char-Gar]

My solution to dealing with the schism minded is to remind myself how ignorant we all are.
If that doesn't work I try to bite my tongue.
If that doesn't work I tell them how ignorant they are.
And that never works.

Now that is pure truth.

[Lloyd Smale]

could it be that luther didn't want to be bothered with good works??? Like i said it seems like the protestant faith branches off every time someone doesn't like what there doing to be considered wrong. I wonder too what Luthers opinion would have been of some protestant faiths embracing gay marriage and turning the other cheek when it comes to abortion. As to communion can any who claim the catholic beliefs are wrong show me scripture that states that Jesus didn't say anything but this is my body and this is my blood?? Did the bible say This symbolizes my body and blood???? Pretty much black and white as far as i see it but then again like i said if you want it to fit your agenda you can twist bible scripture to mean about anything that fits your needs. Its why as catholics we rely on our pope, cardinals, bishops and priests that are experts on it to decide what the true meaning is. Not a bunch of old bittys and self proclaimed experts at bible study Friday night.. Men who for 2000 years have dedicated there whole lives to studying the bible. I somehow have to believe that seeing that the catholic church was founded in the first century that they would have slightly better idea of what the bible means then a car salesman and a school teacher. this time i will bow out of it because ive probably offended some that consider themselves experts on scripture. Must have learned it somewhere between casting and sizing:coffee:
One of the difference between roman catholics and Lutherans and Luther biggest problem was.
The roman catholics believed that you are saved only by good works.
Luther believed you were saved by GRACE

Another reason was and why the Baptists broke off was. The Body and Blood of Christ is present when taking Communion. Baptists believe it a symbol.

[Ickisrulz]

could it be that luther didn't want to be bothered with good works??? Like i said it seems like the protestant faith branches off every time someone doesn't like what there doing to be considered wrong. I wonder too what Luthers opinion would have been of some protestant faiths embracing gay marriage and turning the other cheek when it comes to abortion. As to communion can any who claim the catholic beliefs are wrong show me scripture that states that Jesus didn't say anything but this is my body and this is my blood?? Did the bible say This symbolizes my body and blood???? Pretty much black and white as far as i see it but then again like i said if you want it to fit your agenda you can twist bible scripture to mean about anything that fits your needs. Its why as catholics we rely on our pope, cardinals, bishops and priests that are experts on it to decide what the true meaning is. Not a bunch of old bittys and self proclaimed experts at bible study Friday night.. Men who for 2000 years have dedicated there whole lives to studying the bible. I somehow have to believe that seeing that the catholic church was founded in the first century that they would have slightly better idea of what the bible means then a car salesman and a school teacher. this time i will bow out of it because ive probably offended some that consider themselves experts on scripture. Must have learned it somewhere between casting and sizing:coffee:

A quick scan of Luther's 95 theses shows that he clearly meant to work within the Roman Catholic Church and did not want to leave it.

http://www.luther.de/en/95thesen.html

[1johnlb]

Lloyd Smale
Its why as catholics we rely on our pope, cardinals, bishops and priests that are experts on it to decide what the true meaning is. Not a bunch of old bittys and self proclaimed experts at bible study Friday night.. Men who for 2000 years have dedicated there whole lives to studying the bible. I somehow have to believe that seeing that the catholic church was founded in the first century that they would have slightly better idea of what the bible means then a car salesman and a school teacher

This goes against everything that the New covenant was made for and scripture from old and new. Over and over again , " trust God not man". The very " black and white wording of the new covenant is that , " NO MAN shall teach his brother but they ALL SHALL KNOW ME. It's not my fault who you trust in, but then you might need to actually read the bible and pray to the Father to know this.

[Thundarstick]

Who are these prophecies warning against?

1Ti 4:1-4
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,

[DCP]

Why Christians Were Denied Access to Their Bible for 1,000 Years

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bernard-starr/why-christians-were-denied-access-to-their-bible-for-1000-years_b_3303545.html

The Church actually discouraged the populace from reading the Bible on their own — a policy that intensified through the Middle Ages and later, with the addition of a prohibition forbidding translation of the Bible into native languages.

Thats what the Roman Cathloic, Popes and ............... did to the common man!

[jcwit]

I don't know if it was started with luther or not. the catholic church had some splitting within itself and some say it isn't so because there still considered catholics. Bottom line is the BIG split was with luther. Now it would be hard to argue with if all that happened was he split off and all the members of his church agreed with him and there was two churches. But that sure isn't the case. Every time someone wanted power or didn't like one of the rules of the luthern church or other protestant churches they made up there own rules and own interpretation of the bible. Also if you check into old Luther youll find that he was no better then the catholic priest that today are slammed for being pedophiles. He wasn't the holy man some want to make him out to be. Was there bishops and cardinals and even popes that were no better? Bet your life! Luther was just a man who craved attention and power. The catholic church saw through him and wouldn't give it to him so he found a way to get it himself. All that said some will think that I feel superior because I'm a catholic and that's far from the truth. theres good catholics and bad catholics just like theres good protestants and bad protestants. I have ALOT more respect for a GOOD protestant that does more then lip service then I do some hypocrite catholic that partys all Saturday night with his girlfriend and shows up to church sunday morning with his wife and children.

What I have the biggest problem with isn't the Baptist, lutherns, Methodists ect that are good church going people who try to lead a good life, its the hypocrite who comes on here trying to look all knowlegable about the bible or argues for his chosen profession but the only effort he puts in is over the internet. To lazy to even go to church on sunday. Or the guy who reads the bible and thinks hes got the correct interpretation that everyone before him for over 2000 years just couldn't see. So smart in fact that he thinks all the organized religions are wrong and uses that for any excuse to sleep in on sunday. I sure don't think going to church buys your way to heaven. Only being a Christian does that. But the fact that some don't have an hour a week to dedicate just to Jesus shows me that your surely not a Christian. I don't care if you spend 8 hours by yourself reading the bible every week because if your doing it all alone with no other opinions your just reading a book. Just like the hundreds of splits in the protestant faith you too will just twist it to fit what you want to believe. Now I'm sure I'm going to get some comments on this. Bring them on. But i don't want to get into any arguments here so I'm not going to even bother replying. I know nothing i said was wrong.

Actually I pretty much agree with you Lloyd!

No argument from me.

[xdmalder]

could it be that luther didn't want to be bothered with good works??? Like i said it seems like the protestant faith branches off every time someone doesn't like what there doing to be considered wrong. I wonder too what Luthers opinion would have been of some protestant faiths embracing gay marriage and turning the other cheek when it comes to abortion. As to communion can any who claim the catholic beliefs are wrong show me scripture that states that Jesus didn't say anything but this is my body and this is my blood?? Did the bible say This symbolizes my body and blood???? Pretty much black and white as far as i see it but then again like i said if you want it to fit your agenda you can twist bible scripture to mean about anything that fits your needs. Its why as catholics we rely on our pope, cardinals, bishops and priests that are experts on it to decide what the true meaning is. Not a bunch of old bittys and self proclaimed experts at bible study Friday night.. Men who for 2000 years have dedicated there whole lives to studying the bible. I somehow have to believe that seeing that the catholic church was founded in the first century that they would have slightly better idea of what the bible means then a car salesman and a school teacher. this time i will bow out of it because ive probably offended some that consider themselves experts on scripture. Must have learned it somewhere between casting and sizing:coffee:

And quotes like this right here is the biggest reason for denominations.

[1johnlb]

And quotes like this right here is the biggest reason for denominations.

It might be the 2000 year old men that started the denominational splits. If not they may have heard from a old bitty who it was.

[Lloyd Smale]

they weren't. Fact is every bible was hand written then and most of them in latin so that average man couldn't afford one or read it if they could. That goes for protestants and Catholics and Jewish people. Why would the church even had to restrict reading it. You had to be a rich man to afford the privilege. [QUOTE=DCP;4094169]Why Christians Were Denied Access to Their Bible for 1,000 Years

[url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bernard

[Lloyd Smale]

This goes against everything that the New covenant was made for and scripture from old and new. Over and over again , " trust God not man". The very " black and white wording of the new covenant is that , " NO MAN shall teach his brother but they ALL SHALL KNOW ME. It's not my fault who you trust in, but then you might need to actually read the bible and pray to the Father to know this.

good example of twisting a scripture passage to fit an argument. Its exactly why I think to many spend to much time studying the bible and using it to justify there sins. Ive read the bible. I read the bible. It is a very complicated book that no one man can possibly know the true meaning of its scriptures. I think of it kind of like this. A man can read the owners manual for his new truck and even the service manual. Does that make him capable of understanding everything in it or translating those words into correct thought and practice? Reading the bible doesn't make you chirstian any more then reading that owners manual makes you a mechanic. You have to go out and practice what it teaches you. That's why I find it so silly that some think acts aren't nessisary. I can find hundreds of expamples right in the bible of things (acts) Jesus tells us we must do. Everything from keeping the Sabbath to the 10 commandments. In fact the most important thing the bible teaches is how we must ACT to get into heaven. If you don't believe ACTS help you become a good Christian why do you even bother reading the bible. That itself is an act. Keep thinking you have free reign to sin all you want and we will see how that plays out at the pearly gates.

[Lloyd Smale]

Still haven't seen anyone prove the catholic faith wrong in that the bible tells us that communion IS taking the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Not one passage that says its symbolic. That train of thought came from man not Jesus.

[Lloyd Smale]

This goes against everything that the New covenant was made for and scripture from old and new. Over and over again , " trust God not man". The very " black and white wording of the new covenant is that , " NO MAN shall teach his brother but they ALL SHALL KNOW ME. It's not my fault who you trust in, but then you might need to actually read the bible and pray to the Father to know this.

then why did Jesus tell his disciples to go out and teach the word of God?? Why did God give Moses the 10 commandments. Should the people have believed him? I sure don't think the catholic church is alone in teaching its people. In fact all organized religions do it. In the beginning there was NO BIBLE. Teaching was the only way to learn. IN fact the bible is the most important teaching tool that ever existed. So let me ask you this. By your post id have to believe that you don't feel the need for any church or bible study. You believe its against the bible to let some other man teach or help you understand it. You obviously think that you are capable of what no other man ever was capable of. That is totally understanding ever aspect of the bible. In fact that would be the ultimate vanity. Last I heard that's a sin.

[1johnlb]

good example of twisting a scripture passage to fit an argument. Its exactly why I think to many spend to much time studying the bible and using it to justify there sins. Ive read the bible. I read the bible. It is a very complicated book that no one man can possibly know the true meaning of its scriptures. I think of it kind of like this. A man can read the owners manual for his new truck and even the service manual. Does that make him capable of understanding everything in it or translating those words into correct thought and practice? Reading the bible doesn't make you chirstian any more then reading that owners manual makes you a mechanic. You have to go out and practice what it teaches you. That's why I find it so silly that some think acts aren't nessisary. I can find hundreds of expamples right in the bible of things (acts) Jesus tells us we must do. Everything from keeping the Sabbath to the 10 commandments. In fact the most important thing the bible teaches is how we must ACT to get into heaven. If you don't believe ACTS help you become a good Christian why do you even bother reading the bible. That itself is an act. Keep thinking you have free reign to sin all you want and we will see how that plays out at the pearly gates.
Just because you call it twisted with nothing to back it up, except you and your thoughts. I gave you sound doctrine from old and new testament in " black and white and you say I'm twisted. Now i understand why several verses later it says "and ready to vanish away" because you can't let go of the old and your new wine is spoiled.

[1johnlb]

then why did Jesus tell his disciples to go out and teach the word of God?? Why did God give Moses the 10 commandments. Should the people have believed him? I sure don't think the catholic church is alone in teaching its people. In fact all organized religions do it. In the beginning there was NO BIBLE. Teaching was the only way to learn. IN fact the bible is the most important teaching tool that ever existed. So let me ask you this. By your post id have to believe that you don't feel the need for any church or bible study. You believe its against the bible to let some other man teach or help you understand it. You obviously think that you are capable of what no other man ever was capable of. That is totally understanding ever aspect of the bible. In fact that would be the ultimate vanity. Last I heard that's a sin.

You say teach, the word is preach, big difference. There is 1 teacher, The Holy Spirit, that's the word of God.

[1johnlb]

Still haven't seen anyone prove the catholic faith wrong in that the bible tells us that communion IS taking the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Not one passage that says its symbolic. That train of thought came from man not Jesus.

What are you trying to say, explain yourself, we can't read your mind.Your words are muffled to a point at least I can't understand what your trying to say. Personally I'm not here to prove anyone right or wrong but to share truth as written not as interpreted by sects.

[Lloyd Smale]

ever wonder why preach and teach are close to the same word? because they are near the same word. do you not TEACH your children about GOD? Keep trying though its kind of entertaining.


1.Preach

prēch, v.i. to pronounce a public discourse on sacred subjects: to discourse earnestly: to give advice in an offensive or obtrusive manner.—v.t. to publish in religious discourses: to deliver, as a sermon: to teach publicly.—n. (coll.) a sermon.—ns. Preach′er, one who discourses publicly on religious matter: a minister or clergyman; Preach′ership.—v.i. Preach′ify, to preach tediously: to weary with lengthy advice.—ns. Preach′ing, the act of preaching: a public religious discourse: a sermon; Preach′ing-cross, a cross in an open place at which monks, &c., preached.—n.pl. Preach′ing-frī′ars, the Dominicans.—n. Preach′ment, a sermon, in contempt: a discourse affectedly solemn.—adj. Preach′y, given to tedious moralising.—Preach down, and up, to decry, or the opposite. [Fr. prêcher (It. predicare)—L. prædicāre, -ātum, to proclaim.]

[1johnlb]

Some men look into the mirror, using the light. Some look in the mirror in the darkness, and some just look at self-portraits painted from the imagination of what they want to be instead of reality.

[Lloyd Smale]

I'm not here saying the catholic way is the only way either. Just defending against blind unfounded predudices some have. Looks like you resort to personal attacks though. My words are not muffled. They are the truth. I cant make you open your eyes and see them though. I asked a simple question to the people here that say the Catholics have communion all wrong. Some of you like to quote the bible so I ask if you could even find a passage that you can twist as usual to prove me wrong. Show me one bible passage that says that when Jesus said that he did it symbolically. Are you saying that in that aspect the bible is wrong? It is man that made the determination in some faiths that it is symbolic, Jesus never said that. If you cant read and understand that then you might need some reading comprehension training. If you cant understand that simple question how can I take your comprehension of the bible seriously.
What are you trying to say, explain yourself, we can't read your mind.Your words are muffled to a point at least I can't understand what your trying to say. Personally I'm not here to prove anyone right or wrong but to share truth as written not as interpreted by sects.

[Lloyd Smale]

sounds just like one of the people who think they have it all figured out and MILLIONS of others are wrong. Must be nice to be so sure of yourself.
Some men look into the mirror, using the light. Some look in the mirror in the darkness, and some just look at self-portraits painted from the imagination of what they want to be instead of reality.

[Preacher Jim]

The problem as I see it you all are debating religion.
Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship with the living savior.
Religion is man made, man interpreted and only defined by what you been taught.
We should be more interested in how we can work together to spread Christianity not our denomination.
We are called to make disciples of Jesus not our church. Just a thought to see if what you are discussing is doing this or has it become a defensive debate of your choice to worship the savior.

[DCP]

The problem as I see it you all are debating religion.
Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship with the living savior.
Religion is man made, man interpreted and only defined by what you been taught.
We should be more interested in how we can work together to spread Christianity not our denomination.
We are called to make disciples of Jesus not our church. Just a thought to see if what you are discussing is doing this or has it become a defensive debate of your choice to worship the savior.

Amen!

[DCP]

sounds just like one of the people who think they have it all figured out and MILLIONS of others are wrong. Must be nice to be so sure of yourself.

This what I am sure of, you are doing the attacking. You actually compared Luther to a pedophile.

[1johnlb]

Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale
I asked a simple question to the people here that say the Catholics have communion all wrong. Some of you like to quote the bible so I ask if you could even find a passage that you can twist as usual to prove me wrong. Show me one bible passage that says that when Jesus said that he did it symbolically.


You still only vaguely stated your stance on the matter. Personally I've never said anybody takes communion wrong. Communion is personal and if one decides to take it a certain way that's between him and the Lord. But the best I can make out of your statement is that communion is not symbolic our at least Jesus did not say symbolic in the word. Is that correct?

If that's it, OK, you asked for it, remember don't get mad at me, you asked for it.

Luke 22:19-20


19 And He took bread, gave thanks and brokeit, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.


So, your saying the bread isn't a symbol of His body and the cup isn't a symbol of the New Covenant in His blood?

[DCP]

You still only vaguely stated your stance on the matter. Personally I've never said anybody takes communion wrong. Communion is personal and if one decides to take it a certain way that's between him and the Lord. But the best I can make out of your statement is that communion is not symbolic our at least Jesus did not say symbolic in the word. Is that correct?

If that's it, OK, you asked for it, remember don't get mad at me, you asked for it.

Luke 22:19-20


19 And He took bread, gave thanks and brokeit, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.


So, your saying the bread isn't a symbol of His body and the cup isn't a symbol of the New Covenant in His blood?

Yes he is and he would be correct

This is My body
in My blood, which is shed for you

[1johnlb]

Yes he is and he would be correct

This is My body
in My blood, which is shed for you


Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale
t. Not one passage that says its symbolic.


He's wrong according to his statement, "not one passage says it's symbolic". He's wrong, unless your just trying to be funny, because it's actually 2 passages.

[DCP]

He's wrong according to his statement, "not one passage says it's symbolic". He's wrong, unless your just trying to be funny, because it's actually 2 passages.

Where do you read its a Symbolic. These are Christ words.

This is My body

in My blood, which is shed for you

The new covenant is CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY
the covenant between God and the followers of Jesus Christ.

https://www.gotquestions.org/new-covenant.html

He is correct!

[Lloyd Smale]

The problem as I see it you all are debating religion.
Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship with the living savior.
Religion is man made, man interpreted and only defined by what you been taught.
We should be more interested in how we can work together to spread Christianity not our denomination.
We are called to make disciples of Jesus not our church. Just a thought to see if what you are discussing is doing this or has it become a defensive debate of your choice to worship the savior.

I agree but working together to spread Christianity and spreading Christianity could easily be considered works.

[Lloyd Smale]

No he said in plain words "THIS IS MY BODY DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME" He didn't say this represents my body. He didn't say its a cracker do it whenever the mood strikes. Its man who took the importance out of it. It was almost his dieing wish! It is MUCH more then a symbol!!
You still only vaguely stated your stance on the matter. Personally I've never said anybody takes communion wrong. Communion is personal and if one decides to take it a certain way that's between him and the Lord. But the best I can make out of your statement is that communion is not symbolic our at least Jesus did not say symbolic in the word. Is that correct?

If that's it, OK, you asked for it, remember don't get mad at me, you asked for it.

Luke 22:19-20


19 And He took bread, gave thanks and brokeit, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.


So, your saying the bread isn't a symbol of His body and the cup isn't a symbol of the New Covenant in His blood?

[Hogtamer]

Transubstantiation is the word for the belief of Catholics and Episcopalians that the bread and cup of the Eucharist are transformed into the actual body and blood of Christ. Protestants belief that they are symbols as Christ taught in such a manner; "I am the bread of life." "I am the door" being a couple of examples. He often taught in parables, word pictures if you will that conveyed the essence of the Kingdom of God. Great reverence, humility and thanksgiving are the only response for a believer, whatever your faith dictates.

[jmort]

As I stated in Post # 2

"There is agreement on core issues of salvation as a general matter.
The rest is not critical to salvation and is where battles are pitched"

Predestination, transubstantiation, tribulation and on and on.

The Apostles' Creed sums it up for me, and after that we can debate

Ecumenical version Edit

15th-century Flemish tapestry illustrating the first four articles of the Creed
The English Language Liturgical Consultation (ELLC) is an international ecumenical group whose primary purpose is to provide ecumenically accepted texts for those who use English in their liturgy. In 1988 it produced a translation of the Apostles' Creed, distinguished among other things by its avoidance of the word "his" in relation to God. The text is as follows:[22]

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

[DCP]

As I stated in Post # 2

"There is agreement on core issues of salvation as a general matter.
The rest is not critical to salvation and is where battles are pitched"

Predestination, transubstantiation, tribulation and on and on.

The Apostles' Creed sums it up for me, and after that we can debate

Ecumenical version Edit

15th-century Flemish tapestry illustrating the first four articles of the Creed
The English Language Liturgical Consultation (ELLC) is an international ecumenical group whose primary purpose is to provide ecumenically accepted texts for those who use English in their liturgy. In 1988 it produced a translation of the Apostles' Creed, distinguished among other things by its avoidance of the word "his" in relation to God. The text is as follows:[22]

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

Amen!

[1johnlb]

Transubstantiation is the word for the belief of Catholics and Episcopalians that the bread and cup of the Eucharist are transformed into the actual body and blood of Christ. Protestants belief that they are symbols as Christ taught in such a manner; "I am the bread of life." "I am the door" being a couple of examples. He often taught in parables, word pictures if you will that conveyed the essence of the Kingdom of God. Great reverence, humility and thanksgiving are the only response for a believer, whatever your faith dictates.

Thanks Hogtamer. Talk about straining a gnat but swallowing a camel

[DCP]

Thanks Hogtamer. Talk about straining a gnat but swallowing a camel

Wow, dont we have a Christian attitude with the wrong facts

I am a Protestant and was not taught it was a symbol. You have distorted Christ own word boys.
If you believe in the virgin birth
Christ rose from the dead and all the Miracle

Then you deny Christ own words
This is My body

in My blood, which is shed for you


I dont understand it totally, but I have faith and believe Christs own words

[jmort]

Respectfully disagree with you, and agree with Hogtamer.

[DCP]

Respectfully disagree with you, and agree with Hogtamer.

Thank you

They have disagreed on this for 100s of years we are not going to fix it.

[DCP]

Transubstantiation is the word for the belief of Catholics and Episcopalians that the bread and cup of the Eucharist are transformed into the actual body and blood of Christ. Protestants belief that they are symbols as Christ taught in such a manner; "I am the bread of life." "I am the door" being a couple of examples. He often taught in parables, word pictures if you will that conveyed the essence of the Kingdom of God. Great reverence, humility and thanksgiving are the only response for a believer, whatever your faith dictates.

Be careful on what you think you know

Lutherans are Protestants (in fact, the original Protestants); Lutheranism is a subcategory of Protestantism. There is no significant doctrinal difference that I'm aware of as a Lutheran from most mainline Protestant denominations, other than the emphasis on salvation by grace and not works.

Lutheranism traces its history all the way back to Martin Luther, the father of the Protestant Reformation. The beliefs of Lutheran Protestants stem from Martin Luther's rejection of central teaching of the Catholic Church

[rl69]

Lutherans believe (or did when I was young) that it is the body and blood of Christ. Not that it was transformed by a priest.

[1johnlb]

Wow, dont we have a Christian attitude with the wrong facts

I am a Protestant and was not taught it was a symbol. You have distorted Christ own word boys.
If you believe in the virgin birth
Christ rose from the dead and all the Miracle

Then you deny Christ own words
This is My body

in My blood, which is shed for you


I dont understand it totally, but I have faith and believe Christs own words

When you finish throwing stones, you'll just have to forgive me of my lack of religious indoctrination, because I've forgiven you of false judgment on me. You put words in my mouth. Tamatoes or Tamatoes, it's all the same to me. When I take communion the bread I eat and the cup I drink IS His body and blood at least in my mind. There's even more to communion than that, it's intimacy with Him, partaking of the word, written and rhema, but there's no need for me to go into that with you.

[1johnlb]

Is it possible that religious indoctrination has stopped the ears and hardened the hearts of them that study it to a point they have missed the whole reason God gave His Son, intimate relationship. I think so, and it shows.

[DCP]

Is it possible that religious indoctrination has stopped the ears and hardened the hearts of them that study it to a point they have missed the whole reason God gave His Son, intimate relationship. I think so, and it shows.

You keep throwing stones son- WHY

You have made 2 contradictory statements!

"He's wrong according to his statement, "not one passage says it's symbolic". He's wrong, unless your just trying to be funny, because it's actually 2 passages.

When I take communion the bread I eat and the cup I drink IS His body and blood at least in my mind. There's even more to communion than that, it's intimacy with Him, partaking of the word, written and rhema, but there's no need for me to go into that with you."

So which way do you believe?

[xdmalder]

So here's a question. What exactly was the Last Supper? Was it just a meal that he happened to discuss some hidden never before revealed information? Or was it something much bigger? I'll let everyone think on it for a while and I'll be back.

[Good Cheer]

Done with reminding myself how ignorant we all are and tired of tasting blood.
Guess I'll stop biting my tongue and just think about how this part of castboolits shouldn't be turned into Gehenna Mk.II.

Bright spot of my week... unpacking a box I found my big old KJV companion study bible and the equally big Strong's Concordance (pre-Nelson thank you very much). And the Greene's Interlinear four volume set and the Englishman's Hebrew Concordance.
I'm about like Jethro Bodine, "HOT DOG!" Already dove head first into a new study of the "third day" and three days.
And to top it all off I got a little batch of .393 x .87 long hollow bases cast, 15 of them patched, they're drying and will be ready to size .399" diameter and try out in the .40 bore Great Plains Rifle. Trying to come up with a light weight low inertia boolit that will seal off the rifling with a light charge.

Sweet dreams. G'nite yall.

[jcwit]

So here's a question. What exactly was the Last Supper? Was it just a meal that he happened to discuss some hidden never before revealed information? Or was it something much bigger? I'll let everyone think on it for a while and I'll be back.

I'm not sure, as I wasn't there!

If you were, then you tell us, otherwise it is just your words!

In other words, once again MANS words or your interpretation after many, many translations!

[jcwit]

Wow, dont we have a Christian attitude with the wrong facts

I am a Protestant and was not taught it was a symbol. You have distorted Christ own word boys.
If you believe in the virgin birth
Christ rose from the dead and all the Miracle

Then you deny Christ own words
This is My body

in My blood, which is shed for you


I dont understand it totally, but I have faith and believe Christs own words

Correct, we don't get to pick & choose as to which one to believe, all or none!

[xdmalder]

I'm not sure, as I wasn't there!

If you were, then you tell us, otherwise it is just your words!

In other words, once again MANS words or your interpretation after many, many translations!

Now there's some insight! You know this "Christian" thing didn't just spring up from nowhere. It has roots in Judism. You know because Jesus was a Jew.

[jcwit]

Now there's some insight! You know this "Christian" thing didn't just spring up from nowhere. It has roots in Judism. You know because Jesus was a Jew.

Well how bout that!

He was also the Son of God!

So does that make God a Jew?

[xdmalder]

So did he not have to follow the law just because he was the Son of God? And why are you preaching or trying to teach? I thought that was your priests job?

[jcwit]

So did he not have to follow the law just because he was the Son of God? And why are you preaching or trying to teach? I thought that was your priests job?

Me preach/teach? Heaven forbid, don't twist what I say into that. Just telling it as I see it, if you can't handle that, it's your problem, not mine.

BTW, yes my Priest teaches and does a very good job of it, you might try a Catholic service sometime, might open your eyes.

[xdmalder]

Me preach/teach? Heaven forbid, don't twist what I say into that. Just telling it as I see it, if you can't handle that, it's your problem, not mine.

BTW, yes my Priest teaches and does a very good job of it, you might try a Catholic service sometime, might open your eyes.

I know exactly what the Catholic Church. Try reading "Fossilized Customs". Maybe you'll open yours.

[Alabama358]

Me preach/teach? Heaven forbid, don't twist what I say into that. Just telling it as I see it, if you can't handle that, it's your problem, not mine.

BTW, yes my Priest teaches and does a very good job of it, you might try a Catholic service sometime, might open your eyes.


So how to you square it calling your priest father or the pope Holy Father when Jesus himself said...
Matthew 23:9 KJV
And call no man father upon the earth:for one is your father, which is in heaven

[Ickisrulz]

Put me down as a guy who believes the bread and wine are symbolic (like a "door" or "vine"). Communion was meant as a memorial rather than taking an actual part of Christ into your body as least if you go by Jesus' words.

"Do this in remembrance of me."

I'm sure I changed no minds.

[Thundarstick]

Who are these prophecies warning against?

1Ti 4:1-4
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,

I asked this back in post 50 and still haven't gotten an answer? What Christian religion forbids marriage, or what you eat?

[Lloyd Smale]

ill give that a second amen.
As I stated in Post # 2

"There is agreement on core issues of salvation as a general matter.
The rest is not critical to salvation and is where battles are pitched"

Predestination, transubstantiation, tribulation and on and on.

The Apostles' Creed sums it up for me, and after that we can debate

Ecumenical version Edit

15th-century Flemish tapestry illustrating the first four articles of the Creed
The English Language Liturgical Consultation (ELLC) is an international ecumenical group whose primary purpose is to provide ecumenically accepted texts for those who use English in their liturgy. In 1988 it produced a translation of the Apostles' Creed, distinguished among other things by its avoidance of the word "his" in relation to God. The text is as follows:[22]

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

[Lloyd Smale]

Who is lew White? Just a man that wrote a book to make some money. Why would I believe him over 2017 years of Christianity?
I know exactly what the Catholic Church. Try reading "Fossilized Customs". Maybe you'll open yours.

[Lloyd Smale]

Now there's some insight! You know this "Christian" thing didn't just spring up from nowhere. It has roots in Judism. You know because Jesus was a Jew.

Jesus was sent to earth to correct the mistakes that non believers and the Jewish people were making. He was not a Christian because Christianity didn't exist. The split between the Jewish people and Christians was a split by man. Some listened and believed what Jesus preached and became Christians. Some didn't and remained Jews. Just like when Christians split between catholic an protestant beliefs. It was a split orchestrated by man not Jesus. Jesus did not want to split away from his people (the jews) he wanted them to see what they were doing wrong and change. Those who did became Christians. I sure cant speak for Jesus but id bet he didn't want Christianity to split into a hundred different churches either. There lies our weakness. We split into so many different sects and fight so much over small issues that it leaves us weak when confronted by non Christians. Can you imagine the power we would have toward making earth a better place to live if we had a united front. We would out number the liberals that want to run this country. They wouldn't have a chance to control any part of it. While we argue over what communion means or what are works ect. they are destroying Christianity a little at a time and soon it will be only in the history books. While we get weaker and weaker muslims, atheists ect are getting stronger and stronger.

[jcwit]

I know exactly what the Catholic Church. Try reading "Fossilized Customs". Maybe you'll open yours.

You seem to be a troll just as MickyMack was.

[1johnlb]

You keep throwing stones son- WHY

You have made 2 contradictory statements!

"He's wrong according to his statement, "not one passage says it's symbolic". He's wrong, unless your just trying to be funny, because it's actually 2 passages.

When I take communion the bread I eat and the cup I drink IS His body and blood at least in my mind. There's even more to communion than that, it's intimacy with Him, partaking of the word, written and rhema, but there's no need for me to go into that with you."

So which way do you believe?

Contradictory? no, symbolic yes, is, as the body and blood in communion

Which do I believe? at least I believe and not just a belief

I played your game and I'm bored with it, tho I have been amazed at the foolishness of your indoctrination and leaven your sect is infected with.

[Good Cheer]

Deep Theological Discussion...

"Discussion" has way too many letters. For what you guys are doing it only needs four.
I'm not coming back.

[DCP]

Contradictory? no, symbolic yes, is, as the body and blood in communion

Which do I believe? at least I believe and not just a belief

I played your game and I'm bored with it, tho I have been amazed at the foolishness of your indoctrination and leaven your sect is infected with.

Son I will pray for you
Vaya con DIOS

[xdmalder]

Who is lew White? Just a man that wrote a book to make some money. Why would I believe him over 2017 years of Christianity?

So let me get this straight. We can't interpret Scripture because we are men. I can't listen to Lew White who is a biblical scholar because he is a man. But we can count on an exact interpretation from priests even though they are men? Even when there are disagreements between priests in a certain church. Yes totally makes sense!:confused:

[1johnlb]

Son I will pray for you
Vaya con DIOS

Please don't pray for me, it would be a waste of your time.

You say I'm confused and that your right. I say your confused and have proved yourself and those like you wrong. You draw lines and say, it's this way or that way, this side of the line or that side. I'm bound by no such line that you or those like draw, I am bound in Christ and He drew no such line. Sir it's you that needs the prayer not me.

God bless

[Preacher Jim]

This has become the thing I feared a debate not discussion.
As a Christian I am ashamed of the name calling and attacks on others and their belief.
I am about to lock this thread for shame of allowing it to go this far. I was pouring concrete and not paying attention when I should have been.
As the family of God I suggest some serious repenting and asking one another to forgive the bigoted comments made should be issued by many of you.
My only warning.

[DCP]

Please don't pray for me, it would be a waste of your time.

You say I'm confused and that your right. I say your confused and have proved yourself and those like you wrong. You draw lines and say, it's this way or that way, this side of the line or that side. I'm bound by no such line that you or those like draw, I am bound in Christ and He drew no such line. Sir it's you that needs the prayer not me.

God bless

Son

I will pray you even if you think you dont need any.
We all need prays as we are all sinners

Vaya con DIOS

[Preacher Jim]

Read my above post