OK, let's talk about this copper thing (again, for the gazillionth time)

[aephilli822]

Hopefully this isn't too sore a subject and this thread won't go bad.....
I read everything I can find (and a lot was learned from quotes showing info from some of the deleted posts on the above sticky thread) on this and tried it.
Man, this stuff is TOUGH!! :shock:

Ended up with what I think is about this =

Tin % Antimony % Arsenic % Copper % Silver % Lead %
3.11% 2.88% 0.08% 0.13% 0.08% 93.7%

Wanted more Cu but the 5th 1/8 oz strand of wire didn't dissolve much so I stopped at about 1/2 oz instead of a full oz which would have gotten me to .23 Cu.
LBT 460 530 and Lee 457 405 F dropped into a 5 gallon bucket of water.
Only 2nd time casting, first time with alloy instead of pure lead.
Got lots of only one hole getting filled, one partial, learning how to use the Lyman and Lee ladles, how to prop the handles of the molds so the body stays flat on the saw blade on the hotplate, and other various assorted learning curve issues.
Of those that did get dropped into the bucket most had one or more serious issues. (rounded heels and bands, flashing, TONS of wrinkles, etc)
The LBT mold really drops 'em easy, the Lee not too bad, but those LONG 530s were real bad about wrinkles/voids.
I was casting ~ 650 -700* F (hard to maintain on propane burner) and no idea what the mold temp was. (gonna try my laser remote thermometer next time)
I didn't want to "cook out" my additives/alloying metals so was trying to keep temps down. (pretty sure low temps caused wrinkles)
I'm hoping I can get the defects issue worked out, but my real problem is that, of the few usable boolits I got from the 530s, I'm having a real problem (read: huge amount of force needed on the handle of the Rock Chucker) nose sizing from .460" to .450" so as to load them in my 458 Win Mag and still have room for some powder. By the time I get that big nose far enough back to chamber, 60 grs of 3031 ain't gonna fit and the cartridge looks like a 45-70 with only a little of the boolit sticking out of the case.
Like I said before, these things are TOUGH! Set one of the culls on the concrete and whaled away with a 3LB ball peen about 8-12 wacks and it only mushroomed the nose a little.
My plan is to get another nose bushing from NOE and taper & polish it out to about .455 so as to size in steps, and then will try air cooling, sizing, and then heat treating after sized.

Sorry about long winded post, just trying to anticipate and answer as many questions as I could up front.

ANY questions, advice, cautions, flames, or dire warnings of imminent doom by hideously painful burning death are welcomed....:drinks:

[Markopolo]

Why not get a simple and totally effective lee basic bottom pour pot? Your issues of temp control and so on will just pretty much vanish..... you will be much happier for it in the long run... :drinks:

[aephilli822]

Why not get a simple and totally effective lee basic bottom pour pot? Your issues of temp control and so on will just pretty much vanish..... you will be much happier for it in the long run... :drinks:

:kidding: yep, this free lead is getting more expensive all the time

serious answer is , that is getting closer to the top of the list.

[Dusty Bannister]

You may find it easier to just cast and let the bullets roll out of the mold onto a soft towel during this learning period. That way if you have a cull, it can go immediately back into the pot without risk of steam explosion. This will increase the rate of casting, help heat up the mold, and some of the problems will go away. You may find that quenching after heat treating is not necessary and it will make working the bullets a lot easier.

Keeping it simple might be a good thing at this point in the learning experience.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

ahhh, this brings back the memories of when I first started casting. Yes I was trying to cast with a camp stove and stainless steel soup pot and ladle, after a smelting session (I was unsuccessful). I also tried to micro-manage all the little details like you are with the copper. It all was so overwhelming.

My suggestion is also to keep it simple. A lee bottom pour pot and some COWW alloy. I'd say to just drop them on a towel instead of water drop (water quench) and size them right away, they'll size lots easier, but then let your boolits age for a couple weeks before loading/shooting. Keep your loads down to 25Kpsi or less with that alloy. Then once you have had some success, you'll be ready to tackle more of the small details (harder alloy/higher pressure loads).

[williamwaco]

I don't mean this unkindly - but MAN! This may be the worst case of overthinking the process I have ever seen. Casting bullets is like riding a bicycle. No amount of reading will make you proficient. Get a pot and some scrap lead and start casting. Don't worry about the alloy mix. Don't worry about the temperature. If it makes a sprue puddle that takes a few seconds to harden it is hot enough. If the surface of the pot starts turning pretty colors, it is too hot.

I do recommend an electric pot to seriously simplify the process but remember, millions of shooters cast billions of bullets that killed millions of game animals before electricity was discovered.

Have fun. Cast bullets. Shoot'em up. Repeat. After you have cast 40 or 50 thousand and know how, then worry about alloys and temperature.

This is supposed to be fun.

[OS OK]

Ended up with what I think is about this =

Tin % Antimony % Arsenic % Copper % Silver % Lead %
3.11% 2.88% 0.08% 0.13% 0.08% 93.7%


If you don't mind my asking...what are you trying to accomplish with this blend and or load?

Like I said before, these things are TOUGH! Set one of the culls on the concrete and whaled away with a 3LB ball peen about 8-12 wacks and it only mushroomed the nose a little.

Have you taken a BHN measurement off this stuff...how hard are they?

[Markopolo]

Ok... let me help you here by the numbers my friend...

Step 1 go over to swap and sell forum... insert the following new thread....

"New caster looking to acquire a used bottom pour pot... please help me out here as this is suppose to be fun"

Step 2... pay a reduced price for a used pot, and wait for it to arrive... while waiting, start at the stickies page and start reading about casting... just the basics... don't get bogged down in thresholds, rpm's, just basic cast boolit stuff....

Step 3... pot arrival day... grab the new to you pot... find a place with no risk of moisture or rain, throw some of that lead you been playing with into the pot, plug it in, set it to temp 7, wait for lead to become well melted, dip the end of the mold only directly into the lead, count to 45, take the mold out and start casting boolits... drop them into a towel, and don't stop casting to look at the boolits until you have cast at least 50 boolits on a towel... then take a look at your boolits.. you will be pleased.... I am sure... :drinks:

[dondiego]

Hopefully this isn't too sore a subject and this thread won't go bad.....
I read everything I can find (and a lot was learned from quotes showing info from some of the deleted posts on the above sticky thread) on this and tried it.
Man, this stuff is TOUGH!! :shock:

Ended up with what I think is about this =

Tin % Antimony % Arsenic % Copper % Silver % Lead %
3.11% 2.88% 0.08% 0.13% 0.08% 93.7%

Wanted more Cu but the 5th 1/8 oz strand of wire didn't dissolve much so I stopped at about 1/2 oz instead of a full oz which would have gotten me to .23 Cu.
LBT 460 530 and Lee 457 405 F dropped into a 5 gallon bucket of water.
Only 2nd time casting, first time with alloy instead of pure lead.
Got lots of only one hole getting filled, one partial, learning how to use the Lyman and Lee ladles, how to prop the handles of the molds so the body stays flat on the saw blade on the hotplate, and other various assorted learning curve issues.
Of those that did get dropped into the bucket most had one or more serious issues. (rounded heels and bands, flashing, TONS of wrinkles, etc)
The LBT mold really drops 'em easy, the Lee not too bad, but those LONG 530s were real bad about wrinkles/voids.
I was casting ~ 650 -700* F (hard to maintain on propane burner) and no idea what the mold temp was. (gonna try my laser remote thermometer next time)
I didn't want to "cook out" my additives/alloying metals so was trying to keep temps down. (pretty sure low temps caused wrinkles)
I'm hoping I can get the defects issue worked out, but my real problem is that, of the few usable boolits I got from the 530s, I'm having a real problem (read: huge amount of force needed on the handle of the Rock Chucker) nose sizing from .460" to .450" so as to load them in my 458 Win Mag and still have room for some powder. By the time I get that big nose far enough back to chamber, 60 grs of 3031 ain't gonna fit and the cartridge looks like a 45-70 with only a little of the boolit sticking out of the case.
Like I said before, these things are TOUGH! Set one of the culls on the concrete and whaled away with a 3LB ball peen about 8-12 wacks and it only mushroomed the nose a little.
My plan is to get another nose bushing from NOE and taper & polish it out to about .455 so as to size in steps, and then will try air cooling, sizing, and then heat treating after sized.

Sorry about long winded post, just trying to anticipate and answer as many questions as I could up front.

ANY questions, advice, cautions, flames, or dire warnings of imminent doom by hideously painful burning death are welcomed....:drinks:

Are you really trying to size them from 0.460 to 0.450 for a .458 Mag?

[Cowboy_Dan]

Are you really trying to size them from 0.460 to 0.450 for a .458 Mag?

That's what I thought at first, but rereading that portion makes me think he is sizing the noses down so that he can seat them out further. Either way, I suggest sizing down that much be done in stages, probably 460 to 455 to 450.

[aephilli822]

...

Keeping it simple might be a good thing at this point in the learning experience.
that's putting it politely, when I go back and read my original post, I think "doing everything wrong, then act all surprised when it don't work?" :shock:

[aephilli822]

I don't mean this unkindly - but MAN! This may be the worst case of overthinking the process I have ever seen. Casting bullets is like riding a bicycle. No amount of reading will make you proficient. Get a pot and some scrap lead and start casting. Don't worry about the alloy mix. Don't worry about the temperature. If it makes a sprue puddle that takes a few seconds to harden it is hot enough. If the surface of the pot starts turning pretty colors, it is too hot.

I do recommend an electric pot to seriously simplify the process but remember, millions of shooters cast billions of bullets that killed millions of game animals before electricity was discovered.

Have fun. Cast bullets. Shoot'em up. Repeat. After you have cast 40 or 50 thousand and know how, then worry about alloys and temperature.

This is supposed to be fun.

Hey I'm not totally useless, I can always serve as a bad example.

[aephilli822]

Ended up with what I think is about this =

Tin % Antimony % Arsenic % Copper % Silver % Lead %
3.11% 2.88% 0.08% 0.13% 0.08% 93.7%


If you don't mind my asking...what are you trying to accomplish with this blend and or load?


tough boolits, and the problem part came in when I tried to "do too much at first"




Like I said before, these things are TOUGH! Set one of the culls on the concrete and whaled away with a 3LB ball peen about 8-12 wacks and it only mushroomed the nose a little.

Have you taken a BHN measurement off this stuff...how hard are they?

no measuring tool (yet)
how hard? does the phrase "woodpecker lips" bring anything to mind?

[popper]

Way too much tin. will try air cooling, sizing, and then heat treating after sized. Don't WD from the mould and size the same day. Use some water on them when sizing - keeps them from galling in the die. I don't do the Cu wire thing but you need to use a solder iron and tin the wire first IIRC.

[aephilli822]

and Honestly guys, I'm not trying to be a smart aleck with my replies, just going back and reading my post in context, I see where it is almost a list of how not to do things, and have to laugh at myself
I really do appreciate the replies in the spirit in which they were given :drinks:

[aephilli822]

Way too much tin.
I was going for a "balanced alloy (I seem to remember someone once saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing")


will try air cooling, sizing, and then heat treating after sized. Don't WD from the mould and size the same day.
NOW you tell me... LOL



Use some water on them when sizing - keeps them from galling in the die. I don't do the Cu wire thing but you need to use a solder iron and tin the wire first IIRC.

I was using 1 coat of BLL before sizing. They weren't galling, the nose size bushing was just shearing off a ring..... but by golly it was the right size afterwards!

[Grmps]

If anyone tells you are useless for asking a question they should be tarred and feathered and they don’t belong on this site!
If you are unsure of the alloy temp when casting, I would suggest 700 – 750 instead of 650 – 700. If you use your laser remote thermometer you will need to float a piece of dark metal on the lead and shoot that, the reflection off the lead will give you bad readings
This will give you some help with alloying http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?105952-Lead-alloy-calculators&p=2883499&viewfull=1#post2883499
This is a good pot to start with for $76 to your door https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001MYESWE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1YCI0I3EACE4G&psc=1 not to step on any toes, but the cost of a used pot plus the shipping cost may be a little less but you are getting a used pot. With a bottom pour pot, you are always getting clean lead from the bottom of the melt and won’t have to deal with keeping the top of the lead clean.
Mixed Alloy Tin % Antimony % Arsenic % Copper % Silver % Lead % Weight Est. Hardness
3.11% 2.88% 0.13% 0.08% 0.00% 93.8% 1.0 12.2

I would guess your hardness calculations are a bit off; from what you describe you are well over 20BHN
You water quench with .13% arsenic and apr 3%tin 3% antimony it’s going to get real hard fast. Arsenic supercharges water quench hardening
Exactly what are you alloying to get this mix?
Where are you getting your alloy from?
Read about fluxing, this will clean and help the alloys incorporate into the mix, common fluxes are pine sawdust
I usually flux several times when smelting/mixing the alloy, before casting and at least once during casting to keep things evenly distributed
When you ask a question, please be as thorough as possible in the description, it will make it much easier for someone to give you an accurate answer

[williamwaco]

We're really not being mean. We want you to have fun and make good bullets. At one time or another we have all screwed something up but over thinking it.

[country gent]

I ladle cast over a propane heat source and have found a couple little tricks for maintaining heat level. 1) a burner only as big as you need with a second small valve to regulate heat. 2) as big a pot as is feasible. ( I used a weed burner with 2 valves 1 on off one adjusting temp and 130lb pot) the added mass of the bigger pot makes maintaining heat levels easier. As to heat level try working up to around 750* this may help some also. Pre heat mould and may a short dip in the pot to bring up to temp. If lead sticks to it may not be hot enough yet. Between pours let the ladle sit filled in the pot to maintain its temp also. When starting make several "pours thru the ladle back into the pot even to get it hot. I wouldn't recommend the water drop to start with as stated above it easier to deal with culls and see whats going on. Over pour the mould so there is run off back into the pot. Pour a full ladle into the mould sprue hole letting excess run back into pot. This helps keep the sprue plate hot and up to temp allowing for off gassing and full base fill out. Use the lyman ladle and if possible open the spout up to .205 dia or so. Cadence makes a big difference also so When casting cast when sorting sort don't try to combine the 2. Your alloy with the copper and tin added may require a fast cadence to keep everything up to temp also. As to sizing I'm not sure what your sizing the whole bullet or just the nose.

[aephilli822]

If anyone tells you are useless for asking a question they should be tarred and feathered and they don’t belong on this site!
I'm the only one who said the word "useless". I always use that saying when making fun of my mistakes.


If you are unsure of the alloy temp when casting, I would suggest 700 – 750 instead of 650 – 700. If you use your laser remote thermometer you will need to float a piece of dark metal on the lead and shoot that, the reflection off the lead will give you bad readings
This will give you some help with alloying http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?105952-Lead-alloy-calculators&p=2883499&viewfull=1#post2883499
This is a good pot to start with for $76 to your door https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001MYESWE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1YCI0I3EACE4G&psc=1 not to step on any toes, but the cost of a used pot plus the shipping cost may be a little less but you are getting a used pot. With a bottom pour pot, you are always getting clean lead from the bottom of the melt and won’t have to deal with keeping the top of the lead clean.
Mixed Alloy Tin % Antimony % Arsenic % Copper % Silver % Lead % Weight Est. Hardness
3.11% 2.88% 0.13% 0.08% 0.00% 93.8% 1.0 12.2

I would guess your hardness calculations are a bit off; from what you describe you are well over 20BHN
You water quench with .13% arsenic and apr 3%tin 3% antimony it’s going to get real hard fast. Arsenic supercharges water quench hardening
Exactly what are you alloying to get this mix?
Where are you getting your alloy from?


Yes, I think the temp was low causing the wrinkles (scaredy cat new caster not wanting to burn out alloy ingredients)
The calculator said 12.2 Est Hardness but does say in the notes that copper and silver make harder
This is what the calculator came up with

Tin % Antimony % Arsenic % Copper % Silver % Lead %
3.11% 2.88% 0.08% 0.13% 0.08% 93.7%

2 lbs of magnum (6% antimony) shot
2.5 lbs of Rotometals Super Hard (30% antimony)
25 lbs pure lead
.25 lb of 90.10% 4.20% 0.00% 3.60% 0.00% 1.1%
(from this ad http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?290608-VS-Pewter-TIN-Ingots-for-bullet-castin)
half an ounce of copper wire (.031 lbs) I had an ounce that I had cut into 8 parts and 4 dissolved, the 5th didn't dissolve much
.75 lb of 96.7% tin / 3.3% silver (solder bought a year ago)




Read about fluxing, this will clean and help the alloys incorporate into the mix, common fluxes are pine sawdust
I usually flux several times when smelting/mixing the alloy, before casting and at least once during casting to keep things evenly distributed
When you ask a question, please be as thorough as possible in the description, it will make it much easier for someone to give you an accurate answer

The casting pot is near the top of the list for next purchase.
I was using a bunch of paste soldering flux to get the copper tinned and dissolved.
Used several ~ 3/4 inch balls of paraffin as flux during casting

[aephilli822]

We're really not being mean. We want you to have fun and make good bullets. At one time or another we have all screwed something up but over thinking it.

I know. (and even if someone does intend to be mean I'm still gonna take it as just telling the truth while trying to help)[smilie=1:

[aephilli822]

I ladle cast over a propane heat source and have found a couple little tricks for maintaining heat level. 1) a burner only as big as you need with a second small valve to regulate heat. 2) as big a pot as is feasible. ( I used a weed burner with 2 valves 1 on off one adjusting temp and 130lb pot) the added mass of the bigger pot makes maintaining heat levels easier. As to heat level try working up to around 750* this may help some also. Pre heat mould and may a short dip in the pot to bring up to temp. If lead sticks to it may not be hot enough yet.
thanks, good info



Between pours let the ladle sit filled in the pot to maintain its temp also. When starting make several "pours thru the ladle back into the pot even to get it hot.
Hey finally a couple things i did right! [smilie=w:


I wouldn't recommend the water drop to start with as stated above it easier to deal with culls and see whats going on. Over pour the mould so there is run off back into the pot. Pour a full ladle into the mould sprue hole letting excess run back into pot. This helps keep the sprue plate hot and up to temp allowing for off gassing and full base fill out. Use the lyman ladle and if possible open the spout up to .205 dia or so. Cadence makes a big difference also so When casting cast when sorting sort don't try to combine the 2. Your alloy with the copper and tin added may require a fast cadence to keep everything up to temp also. As to sizing I'm not sure what your sizing the whole bullet or just the nose.
All this is going on the list for next time (when I melt all the wrinkles and see how hard they are not quenched)
Just sizing the nose. Softer alloy, no quench, different mold, recut throat (barrel's, not mine :veryconfu) are all possibles that may be explored.

[aephilli822]

I'm thinking (do you smell smoke?) next time I wanna dissolve some copper, I'm gonna do it into a couple pounds each of just the tin ingot and solder first. This time I did everything but the pure together to get enough in the pot to work with and then started with the copper.

[OS OK]

You can get copper in the blend by using pewter...would that get you where you want?

[aephilli822]

You can get copper in the blend by using pewter...would that get you where you want?

That's one of the things I'm using, pewter ingots from swap&sell here on the forum, but without the extra copper, only comes out to .03%

[PBaholic]

When you first start casting, buy the lead already the way you want it. Smelting takes some time to learn, and is beyond the typical garage mechanics initial skill level. I kinda do my own smelting, in that I mix known alloys together to get a specific mix, but adding something like CU is beyond my ability. The pros don't simply melt CU into an existing alloy. They use other "solvents" to get it into a mix. The solvents are typically salts used for the express purpose of getting a metal to combine into an alloy.

Do you really need that hard of an alloy? A lot of people think they need BHN 16 alloy, as that is what other boolit manufactures are supplying. These boolit makers often use hard lead so that the product doesn't get damaged in shipping, not because you require a hard alloy.

I would start simpler, and just get some wheels weights. Melt them into something, like a muffin tin to get a useable cake. When you go to pour, get your alloy up to 700 degrees. Dip your molds in the lead to heat them up for a few minutes. Then start pouring. Dump your newly made boolits on towels, and learn the process of making proper boolits, even if they are the wrong hardness for what you need. This is a skill on itself, that takes time to understand. Your lead needs to be at a specific temp, as do your molds to get goot results. Also, your pouring technique needs to be honed.

Again, do you really need that hard of a boolit? Hard boolits can cause leading.

Early on, I needed a reliable way to determine the hardness of my alloys. I chose a technique that Brinell himself used for determining the hardness of alloys. He derived a calculation based on pressing a ball bearing into the material to determine its hardness.

199212

I still use this technique, and it allows me to reliably measure Brinell Hardness to +/- 0.5 BHN. I can get better results by using a larger diameter point.

So far I'm into my 20th+ year in boolit making, and just discovering how alloys really mix, and what their hardness levels are over time. I was an engineer before retiring, and have read a lot on metalurgy, and discovered it's much more difficult than I could possibly understand.

[rockrat]

I have used lots of alloy just about what you have indicated, as far as composition. Yes, it is hard, try water quenching from the mold, you will see just what hard is!!!
I use the stuff up to about 2600 fps in a 357max without any problems and have no doubt you could do the same in an '06 with the correct twist barrel, without any problems. You could cut your alloy with WW's , about 1 part ww to two parts your alloy and still have a fairly tough alloy.
Oh, I have a bottom pour RCBS and run it at 720 degrees. At 700 degrees, the spout will tend to freeze up at times and I will have wrinkles

[aephilli822]

When you first start casting, buy the lead already the way you want it. Smelting takes some time to learn, and is beyond the typical garage mechanics initial skill level. I kinda do my own smelting, in that I mix known alloys together to get a specific mix, but adding something like CU is beyond my ability. The pros don't simply melt CU into an existing alloy. They use other "solvents" to get it into a mix. The solvents are typically salts used for the express purpose of getting a metal to combine into an alloy.

Do you really need that hard of an alloy? A lot of people think they need BHN 16 alloy, as that is what other boolit manufactures are supplying. These boolit makers often use hard lead so that the product doesn't get damaged in shipping, not because you require a hard alloy.

I would start simpler, and just get some wheels weights. Melt them into something, like a muffin tin to get a useable cake. When you go to pour, get your alloy up to 700 degrees. Dip your molds in the lead to heat them up for a few minutes. Then start pouring. Dump your newly made boolits on towels, and learn the process of making proper boolits, even if they are the wrong hardness for what you need. This is a skill on itself, that takes time to understand. Your lead needs to be at a specific temp, as do your molds to get goot results. Also, your pouring technique needs to be honed.

Again, do you really need that hard of a boolit? Hard boolits can cause leading.

Early on, I needed a reliable way to determine the hardness of my alloys. I chose a technique that Brinell himself used for determining the hardness of alloys. He derived a calculation based on pressing a ball bearing into the material to determine its hardness.

199212

I still use this technique, and it allows me to reliably measure Brinell Hardness to +/- 0.5 BHN. I can get better results by using a larger diameter point.

So far I'm into my 20th+ year in boolit making, and just discovering how alloys really mix, and what their hardness levels are over time. I was an engineer before retiring, and have read a lot on metalurgy, and discovered it's much more difficult than I could possibly understand.

great info, thanks
i'll check these for hardness this weekend, just out of curiosity
No, probably don't "need" that hard, but why be reasonable? :lol:

[aephilli822]

I have used lots of alloy just about what you have indicated, as far as composition. Yes, it is hard, try water quenching from the mold, you will see just what hard is!!!
that's what I did, the really dumb part was when I thought I'd size them afterward


I use the stuff up to about 2600 fps in a 357max without any problems and have no doubt you could do the same in an '06 with the correct twist barrel, without any problems. You could cut your alloy with WW's , about 1 part ww to two parts your alloy and still have a fairly tough alloy.
Oh, I have a bottom pour RCBS and run it at 720 degrees. At 700 degrees, the spout will tend to freeze up at times and I will have wrinkles

thanks

[aephilli822]

so, does air cooling then heat treating them later make them "less hard" than quenching straight outta the mold?

[Dusty Bannister]

No, quenching by heat treating in an oven and then quenching is a more consistent method.

http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

[aephilli822]

excellent
another reason that it would be best to melt them down and start over

Dusty, I can't thank you enough for your help and patience

[aephilli822]

great info, thanks
i'll check these for hardness this weekend, just out of curiosity
...
just noticed that scale only goes to 16, so may check after recasting, 'cause right now they are way harder than that

[PBaholic]

so, does air cooling then heat treating them later make them "less hard" than quenching straight outta the mold?

Nope. The last heat treating will set the hardness. That's why I no longer water drop. When I PC, I have to heat them to 400 degrees for 20 minutes, and they lose any heat treating.

[PBaholic]

just noticed that scale only goes to 16, so may check after recasting, 'cause right now they are way harder than that

That's just the scale I used. If the diameter is smaller, it's just harder:

0.100 = BHN 17.2
0.090 = BHN 21.4
0.080 = BHN 27.2

It gets too difficult to measure accurately when it gets really small, but you can just increase the diameter of the point, as this will increase your indent diameter as well.

[aephilli822]

Nope. The last heat treating will set the hardness. That's why I no longer water drop. When I PC, I have to heat them to 400 degrees for 20 minutes, and they lose any heat treating.

great, thanks
so if any look usable, i'll heat 'em and let 'em air cool

[aephilli822]

That's just the scale I used. If the diameter is smaller, it's just harder:

0.100 = BHN 17.2
0.090 = BHN 21.4
0.080 = BHN 27.2

It gets too difficult to measure accurately when it gets really small, but you can just increase the diameter of the point, as this will increase your indent diameter as well.

thanks, for the extra (excellent) info
i'll see what i can find out

[Oklahoma Rebel]

so if you are PC'ing at 400 degrees, can you not just quench them afterwards? 400-440 is what I HT at.

[popper]

If you h.t. 2% cu you get high 30 BHN. That is hard.

[Grmps]

so if you are PC'ing at 400 degrees, can you not just quench them afterwards? 400-440 is what I HT at.

You can WQ and get some benefit, but to get full benefits they need to be heated longer than standard bake time

[aephilli822]

well, as far as the size, I found that a throat reamer will be cheaper than another couple size bushings, and it will work on the H&R too
the wrinkles will still hafta be recast, and i'll do 'em hotter next time then HT instead of quench from the mold

[OS OK]

That's one of the things I'm using, pewter ingots from swap&sell here on the forum, but without the extra copper, only comes out to .03%

I realize the percentage is low but I can cite an example...

I was blending a 10 lb. batch of pure ? Pb (it was reclaimed sheathing the roofers use) for the old style Keith HP's and testing them in a water column.
My first blend was to add only 1% Sn for fill-out and end up with about 8.5 BHN Pb.
When I reached for my RotoMetals Sn slugs I remembered buying Pewter from a member here...so, I carefully measured the Pewter out to do that Sn percentage. End result was that they didn't open up and the BHN was 9 or 9.4, can't remember exactly.

I emptied the pot into little ingots and put that blend to the side.

Next, I did the same blend using the Sn slugs and the BHN was 8 or 8.2, don't remember the exact numbers but these opened very nicely. After looking at Bumpos calculator and trying to cipher the difference I noticed the small percentage of Cu. and figured that the Cu must have made that slight difference.

I haven't used Cu before this so...this is my only experience with it. It left me thinking that a little Cu goes a long way.

[popper]

Next time you make a batch, leave out the pewter, not needed unless you need the tin for fillout. I cast 30 cal rifle and don't use any tin. Run the mould ~ 400F, alloy ~ 725. When you start getting good fillout, sharp bases, no wrinkles, you will be an 'expert' caster.
The solubility curves for Cu/Pb show that @725F, you can get 0.17% Cu in Pb. Add Sb and it drops to 0.15%. Sn drops to 0.08%, add As and it drops to 0.04%. So tin your wire, dissolve in Pb, then add the other stuff. As temp decreases, so does solubility. This does NOT mean you can't get high % of Cu in Pb, but that your method will work better done a specific way.

[mold maker]

Don't get hung up on BHN. It's more of a marketing ploy than something a new caster should overly worry about.
I fell for the same jargon and now have 3 seldom used hardness testers.
Get good at casting with WWs and enjoy shooting them.
Most new casters read too much info, from folks that don't know, what they don't know. It's like the magic of firing a 44 Mag SRH with 300 gr boolits at 1550 fps. It hurts the shooter lots worse than the added killing power.
Accuracy is much more important. All the added whizbang is a waste. After all, there is only one degree of dead.

[PBaholic]

so if you are PC'ing at 400 degrees, can you not just quench them afterwards? 400-440 is what I HT at.

I'm not sure how the PC would take to being water cooled.

Anyways, I don't really need hardness when I PC. The PC acts as a jacket, and lube. I get nice obturation, and can find no trace of PC in my guns. I run my powder at max load and even do +P.

I love PCing, and won't go back.

[popper]

PC works fine dropped from the oven into ice water. Use if you need it.

[aephilli822]

Next time you make a batch, leave out the pewter, not needed unless you need the tin for fillout. I cast 30 cal rifle and don't use any tin. Run the mould ~ 400F, alloy ~ 725. When you start getting good fillout, sharp bases, no wrinkles, you will be an 'expert' caster.
The solubility curves for Cu/Pb show that @725F, you can get 0.17% Cu in Pb. Add Sb and it drops to 0.15%. Sn drops to 0.08%, add As and it drops to 0.04%. So tin your wire, dissolve in Pb, then add the other stuff. As temp decreases, so does solubility. This does NOT mean you can't get high % of Cu in Pb, but that your method will work better done a specific way.
honestly not trying to be contrary here, but i thought the Sn was what allowed the Cu to alloy with the Pb?
i thought (and that is what got me in trouble in the first place, remember) that tinning (coating with Sn) is how the Cu is able to dissolve into the Pb.
saturating (Sn) babbitt with Cu and then alloy the babbitt with Pb?
now i'm more confused.

[aephilli822]

199483
just to make it more confusing lines 25 and 45 show quite a bit of difference in hardness of the alloys

tin 96% + silver 4% = Brinell 15
tin 96.7% + silver 3.3% = Brinell 37

:holysheep

[popper]

Silver is a good hardener but I don't know where you get your hardness data, I don't use the cal. for BHN. Silver is expensive. BHN is not linear with additives, Cu works up to 6%, Zn to ~ 2%.
My point about the method of adding wire to the melt is that when dissolving the tinned wire, Sb will reduce the capability of dissolving so adding Sb later should work better. The wire welder technique is known in electronics, pass current through tin soldered copper and the tin migrates into the copper.
I've been playing with a Pb/Zn/Cu alloy lately to get the hardness(Zn)/toughness(Cu). Results good so far.
I played with the wire method, looked at the price of Sn/Cu and Sn/Ag solder and decided that cuso4 was much cheaper and easier.

[OS OK]

Silver is a good hardener but I don't know where you get your hardness data, I don't use the cal. for BHN. Silver is expensive. BHN is not linear with additives, Cu works up to 6%, Zn to ~ 2%.
My point about the method of adding wire to the melt is that when dissolving the tinned wire, Sb will reduce the capability of dissolving so adding Sb later should work better. The wire welder technique is known in electronics, pass current through tin soldered copper and the tin migrates into the copper.
I've been playing with a Pb/Zn/Cu alloy lately to get the hardness(Zn)/toughness(Cu). Results good so far.

What are your 'target goals' regarding this Cu.? Hardness, blends of Pb & ?, velocities....You are putting a lot of work into this.

[aephilli822]

Silver is a good hardener but I don't know where you get your hardness data, I don't use the cal. for BHN. Silver is expensive. BHN is not linear with additives, Cu works up to 6%, Zn to ~ 2%.
My point about the method of adding wire to the melt is that when dissolving the tinned wire, Sb will reduce the capability of dissolving so adding Sb later should work better. The wire welder technique is known in electronics, pass current through tin soldered copper and the tin migrates into the copper.
I've been playing with a Pb/Zn/Cu alloy lately to get the hardness(Zn)/toughness(Cu). Results good so far.
I played with the wire method, looked at the price of Sn/Cu and Sn/Ag solder and decided that cuso4 was much cheaper and easier.

I'm trying to do it this way because I have the silver bearing lead free solder, pewter ingot, pure lead, magnum shot, and some stranded copper wire on hand.
and I have terrible upper respiratory sensitivity issues and don't want to try the "sinus clearing" effects of the heated copper sulfate mentioned earlier, just yet.

[aephilli822]

What are your 'target goals' regarding this Cu.? Hardness, blends of Pb & ?, velocities....You are putting a lot of work into this.
it's a hobby (overthinking things, that is) so I'm just playing and trying to make 530 gr 458 win mag boolits
:redneck:

[OS OK]

Are you getting the test done that actually reveal the contents of your blends after the Cu. is blended in?

[aephilli822]

Are you getting the test done that actually reveal the contents of your blends after the Cu. is blended in?
no, not gonna go that far
just using SWAG by using what I do know and running in calculator
if they come out "hit it with a big hammer and it don't break" hard/tough, I'm good :smile:

[PBaholic]

199483
just to make it more confusing
tin 96% + silver 4% = Brinell 15
tin 96.7% + silver 3.3% = Brinell 37


Yah, this isn't an exact science. I've been trying to pin down Pb/Sn Alloys and Pb/Linotype Alloys, but it is difficult.

It depends on when you measure the hardness, and how accurate your measurement is. Not many of us have XRF guns, and lab grade hardness testers (I don't either). There is a VERY interesting study conducted on this site for hardness using different methods, and the outcome was erratic at best. They were using a multitude of low end commercial products popular in boolit making.

My own studies have concluded there is considerable variability.

[OS OK]

Yah, this isn't an exact science. I've been trying to pin down Pb/Sn Alloys and Pb/Linotype Alloys, but it is difficult.

It depends on when you measure the hardness, and how accurate your measurement is. Not many of us have XRF guns, and lab grade hardness testers (I don't either). There is a VERY interesting study conducted on this site for hardness using different methods, and the outcome was erratic at best. They were using a multitude of low end commercial products popular in boolit making.

My own studies have concluded there is considerable variability.
I am not familiar with the testing done on this site, & would like a link to it if you know it...but...
This article . . . http://www.lasc.us/Shay-BHN-Tester-Experiment.htm . . . from The Los Angeles Handgun - Rifle - Air Pistol Silhouette Club seems to report exactly the opposite of what you are citing here...in fact, the cheapest of the BHN testers was the overall best performer. Hummm?

*The Lee tester appeared to produce the most readings that were both consistent and closest to the actual laboratory results. Although individually other testers came in with slightly smaller standard deviations and numbers that came in closer to calibrated equipment, the Lee appeared to have the best combination between the two areas.

[dbosman]

Just a comment on making big bullets. Some keep a Lee bottom pour just for big bullets. They drill the spout larger to allow more metal to flow.

[aephilli822]

Just a comment on making big bullets. Some keep a Lee bottom pour just for big bullets. They drill the spout larger to allow more metal to flow.

I was having better luck with the smaller 400 gr Lee mold
next time I may treat the LBT 530 gr as a single cavity (until I can get a bottom pour)

[popper]

What are your 'target goals' regarding this Cu.? Hardness, blends of Pb & ?, velocities....You are putting a lot of work into this.
HV rifle with accuracy and good hunting (terminal) performance. HV performance with PB boolits. Cheap alloy blends. Etc. Plus as an old retires phart, I like to tinker.

[PBaholic]

I am not familiar with the testing done on this site, & would like a link to it if you know it

I'll see if I can find it. It was perhaps a year or so ago, I forget which forum. It was not a scientific test, just some lead samples were sent to a few different guys. Someone had access to a commercial hardness tester.

I was interesting, as the results were all over the map.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

BNE is the one that does the tests, all he asks of you is 1lb of lead per sample you send. I have 4 I still need to send him, but you know how it is, as soon as I remember to send them something comes up to distract me and then I forget again!:killingpc