Crazy talkin' going on in the head, ".38-40, you should!!"

[ANick57]

I can't think of a single sane reason to do so, but I got a bit of an itch.

Everything I've read says the .38-40 is a little PITA to get just right for a levergun, and if you get it right for that, it won't want to play nice in a wheel gun.

So, I keep throwing cold water at that squeaky little voice in my head. Nothing like cold, hard experiences of others to quench an itch!! Right???

There is something about that oddball thing that gets my goat. Don't know if it is the funny neck down, the circumstances that make a ".38" really .401, or the question of why it showed up at all, being so close in size to the actual size of the .44-40!!

It makes no sense at all and I guess that just jacks up the curiosity enough to make me listen to that darned voice.

It's just nuts. Right?!

[bouncer50]

38-40 and 44-40 were blackpowder at one time in the past over a 100 years ago. The 44-40 was 44 caliber and 40 grains of BP. The 38-40 is just a neck down 44-40 and the 38-40 is 38 grains of BP and a 40 caliber bullet. I have pistol in 38-40 and 44.40 but no rifles.

[oldhenry]

This thread stirred up some memories. I was fortunate enough in '60 to buy a '73 Winchester in .38-40 (aka 38WCF). It is a complete rifle.....no missing parts (dust cover and all). Amazingly it has a perfect shiny bore. It is the rifle model with 24" octagon bbl..
Factory ammo functioned perfectly. The factory round had a crimp below the boolit & a light crimp over the ogive. Ammo was expensive & I began casting to allow me to shoot it. My equipment was basic.............hand ladled from a Lyman cast iron pot with the Lyman cast iron aperture around the pot to direct the heat toward the pot. I had 2 single cavity "Ideal" molds that I tried to locate to respond to the thread. I found one: a #40143 (172 gr. rounded FP.....no crimp groove). The other was a SWC around 180 gr. with a crimp groove.
Here are the problems that I had:
1. The #40143 would function OK with 1 in the bbl. & 1 in the magazine. More than 1 in the magazine was iffy. The magazine spring pushed the bullets back into the case.
2. The other mold (also an "Ideal".....I think it was a #40188) solved the problem with #1, but the SWC lip caused another feeding problem. From a full magazine I'd shake the rifle when the round came out of the magazine to direct it into the chamber.
3. The .38-40 case is very weak. Anything but a light crimp would collapse the shoulder.

I've often wished for a .38-40 revolver (Ruger had a limited edition convertible .38-40/10mm once, but I was into H.P. shooting then). That SWC bullet would work fine in a revolver.

While searching for the other mold I found 100 Winchester cases in the original sealed box. With the molds available today I could get that '73 shooting.

I look forward to your experiment into this cartridge.

Henry

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Today I cast the .38-40 using Lyman's 401043. My .38-40 is about the most accurate Colt's SAA currently in the herd. The Lee "Factory Crimp Die" places the best crimp, my dies are Buffalo Arms Co., and they work great as does the Starline brass. 9.0 gr. of Unique clocks 1,000 fps. Boolits sized as .401".

Yes you have to lube to size in a steel sizer die but this is a minor task to construct ammo for a great cartridge. I've shot an 8" group at 100 yards two hand hold off hand with my 3rd gen 7 1/2" nickel Colt's with a black powder frame. Haven't compared this .38-40 to my most accurate.44 Special at 100 yards from a rest yet.

Mr. Eddie Janis, proprietor of Peacemaker Specialist said he's seen those .38-40 Colt's 3rd gens deliver unbelievable accuracy.

The .38-40 shouldn't work, but it does. The base of the boolit seats below the neck, and when fired the shoulder is fire formed well ahead of where the sizer dies forms the shoulder. Nonetheless the .38-40 is extremely accurate. It's the frontier .40 S&W but has a lot more class and delivers equal ballistics at almost half the pressure.

[oldhenry]

I always thought that the 1st. number indicated the caliber & the number after the dash indicated the BP charge (as in 44-40 & 32-20). I thought the .38-40 was a misnomer and there is some evidence to that theory: on the bottom of the brass carrier of my '73 Winchester is engraved "38WCF". It is @ the very back of my gun safe & would take some effort to retrieve: but if anyone is interested, I'd dig it out & send a photo (it'd be my 1st photo posting on this forum).
Henry

[Outpost75]

FWIW, the modern .40 S&W duplicates the same bullet diameter, payload and velocity of the .38-40 blackpowder load. We have come full circle.

[ANick57]

I always thought that the 1st. number indicated the caliber & the number after the dash indicated the BP charge (as in 44-40 & 32-20). I thought the .38-40 was a misnomer and there is some evidence to that theory: on the bottom of the brass carrier of my '73 Winchester is engraved "38WCF". It is @ the very back of my gun safe & would take some effort to retrieve: but if anyone is interested, I'd dig it out & send a photo (it'd be my 1st photo posting on this forum).
Henry

Henry, if you'd care to pull it out into the light of day and grace us with an image, I'd be honored to gaze upon it. I'll even try not to drool.. more than usual. :)

.. also Jack, Bouncer, Outpost, yup. There is enough of a, "Hmm. What's this?", about the danged thing to drag one in. I'd read somewhere, some tie into the .38-40 and heeled bullets, which only sounds good for a short moment. #1, it's based off the .44-40 (.428 bullet dia); #2, heeled bullets were served notice with the .44 Russian cartridge; so.. it's being added to existing product. You'd think it would follow along neatly in the pre-existing format. Wouldn't you? Makes you wonder if they had intended to roll it up as a .38 initially. The greater separation between the .44 and the .32 would make sense. Or maybe it was that marketing looked at the progression of .32, .38 and .44 as a beauty of organization so Grail-like as to defy anything to do with reality?

Come to think of it though, a heeled bullet could do wonders for solving push issues on the crimp in a tube magazine. Not too sure what that would do for accuracy.

Matching up case profiles among wheel gun, rifle and dies would be a good thing, eh?

[bouncer50]

The only heel bullet still around is the 22 s,l,and long rifle. Funny part the 22 is very accurate. Other heel-bullets designs so-so accurate. The reason the 38-40 44-40 45 Colt are still around they were never a heel bullet. Heel bullets when of with the horse and buggy era.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

ANick57, I sent you a PM

[9.3X62AL]

Bullet designs like the Lyman #311008, #401043, and #427098--for the 32/20, 38/40, and 44/40 WCF calibers respectively--were designed without a crimp groove because the bullet base was meant to sit on a column of compressed black powder, and in that manner be proof against bullets telescoping. The package was crimped--around the bullet ogive, to keep the package wrapped and to resist bullet creep-out when fired in revolvers.

Someone on this site--"W30WCF" if I recall correctly--has substituted Alliant's Reloder-7 in these calibers for the black powder very safely, having bullets sit on a 100%-density powder column and crimped in the old-school fashion.

In my 32/20 and 44/40 revolvers and rifles, these load regimens have yielded blackpowder era velocities and long brass life. While on the subject of brass cases......go Starline and save yourself a BUNCH of hassle. W-W and R-P brass in these calibers is almost useless, and will tweak and bend if stared at intently.

[HATCH]

38-40 and 44-40 were blackpowder at one time in the past over a 100 years ago. The 44-40 was 44 caliber and 40 grains of BP. The 38-40 is just a neck down 44-40 and the 38-40 is 38 grains of BP and a 40 caliber bullet. I have pistol in 38-40 and 44.40 but no rifles.

Your close.

Both the 44/40 and the 38/40 use the same amount of black powder. 40 grains.

I loaded 44/40 and 38/40 using new starline brass, cast boolits, and unique powder.
I worked up the loads using factory ammo and a chronograph.

Believe it or not, both rounds use the exact same amount of unique

[9.3X62AL]

There is not a whole lot of difference between the 38/40 and 44/40 calibers as far as performance downrange goes. I am a frequent user of these hyphenated short Winchester rifle/revolver rounds, and tooling up for the 38/40 didn't seem like it offered much that the 44/40 didn't already accomplish.

[oldhenry]

First of all I need to make a correction. The "38 W.C.F." stamp is on the top of the bbl. next to the receiver. The inscription on the bottom of the brass follower is ".38 Cal" which thickens the plot. Did Winchester intentionally deceive the public, or was there that much confusion between the people building the rifle & those selling the rifle?

Anyway, I hope the photos follow.

The last photo is of the bottom tang of the receiver under the lever...........some original blueing remains. The remainder of the finish is mainly patina.

Henry


__________________________________________________ ___________
A real sports involves either gasoline or gun powder.............anything else is
just a game.

[ANick57]

There is not a whole lot of difference between the 38/40 and 44/40 calibers as far as performance downrange goes. I am a frequent user of these hyphenated short Winchester rifle/revolver rounds, and tooling up for the 38/40 didn't seem like it offered much that the 44/40 didn't already accomplish.

I don't have either of those, so tool up is near same. Except the .38-40 specific fiddly bits can be a little bit of a challenge. I have heard in a multiple of places that the .38-40 can be very accurate. I don't know how is stacks up against the big brother or the .45 LC regarding accuraccy :

[9.3X62AL]

The '73 Winchester I use in 44/40 WCF is a 19" carbine, and with its favored bullet (SAECO #446) it will stay at or just outside 3" at 100 yards with OEM open irons. Not bad for a 120 year old carbine that saw A LOT of service as a ranch & farm gun. It has undoubtedly taken more deer than all the rifles I've ever owned in total, and has at least 2 black bears to its credit as well. A bear gets no quarter after stealing a fresh-baked pie from a window sill at my family's old mountain ranch. Grandma saw to that right promptly.

The 44/40 revolver is a late 2012 Uberti Cattleman x 4-3/4", and with that same SAECO #446 loading (25.0 grains of RL-7) it stays inside 2" at 25 yards and the bullets hit where the sights look. Velocity in the Pasta Colta is about 850-875 FPS; in the carbine 1200-1225 FPS is the rate.

[tinstarfirearms]

ANick57,
I am very new to the .38-40 game and only when I won an auction for a Colt SAA Bisley from 1912. I have been strictly a straight walled, carbide sizer die sort of reloader for 25 years but this one is fun. I have only loaded and fired roughly 60 rounds in the past month I have owned it. I am loading a 180g bullet over 5.4g of Trail Boss for just under 700fps. I am using the same ten Starline cases in sort of an endurance test but with this mild of a load, they may last forever. I am focusing more on learning the point of impact for this gun more than anything else as it hits roughly 3-5" low with my normal "bullseye" hold.

Andrew

[oldhenry]

ANick57,
This last photo was made today with the aid of my wife operating the LED light @ different angles to get the best effect. Believe it or not, the problem was the bore was too bright (a good problem to have).

Either the original owner cleaned it meticulously after shooting, or it is a late manufacture & smokeless powder only loads were used.

BTW, I paid $50.00 for the gun in '60..........@ the time I was making $45.00/wk.

Henry

[Silver Jack Hammer]

199308

[Speedo66]

Neither cartridge makes sense as to proper caliber. The .44-40 is actually .42, and the .38-40 is actually .40. Only some long gone Winchester employee might have the reason why. Along with why they produced rifles with such close calibers and performance.

I don't know whether Colt or Winchester produced their products first in 1873, the SAA or the Winchester Model 1873, but no doubt Winchester wanted their name on their cartridge, thus the WCF (Winchester Central Fire, referring to the primer), after the caliber.

I use a mild load of 5.5g of TrailBoss over a 180 flat nosed lead bollit by Missouri Bullets in my original .38-40 '73, so mild I think it just makes it out of the barrel. With the heavy 24" octagonal barrel, recoil is barely felt. But it does keep the old girl working, and puts holes in paper. I'm OK with that.

[prsman23]

Do it. I double dog dare you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ANick57]

Do it. I double dog dare you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ha! I see how ya talk folks off the edge! "Jump!!!!", (hey... it's off the edge...)

[clum553946]

ANick57,
This last photo was made today with the aid of my wife operating the LED light @ different angles to get the best effect. Believe it or not, the problem was the bore was too bright (a good problem to have).

Either the original owner cleaned it meticulously after shooting, or it is a late manufacture & smokeless powder only loads were used.

BTW, I paid $50.00 for the gun in '60..........@ the time I was making $45.00/wk.

Henry

That's one very nice rifle! I have one, but not as nice as yours. Thank you for taking the time to show it to us!

[kywoodwrkr]

ANick57,
I think I know how you feel-well almost.
I bought a Ruger cylinder chambered in 38-40, probably 10 years ago.
Bought brass soon there after.
Then realized 38-40 .401-3", 41Mag Ruger BH was .410. Ooops.
Now have cylinder, brass, Green river barrel blank, BH components except bare frame.
I'm getting closer-I hope.
I just won't give it up though!
I'll pick up a BH frame one of these days, make a 10mm cylinder and be up and running----
probably in another life time, but running.

[bob208]

the second winchester rifle i ever bought was a 92 in .38-40. i use the 401403 bullet in it. crimped tight just at the curve of the bullet nose. no problems with it feeding or pushing back in the case. used it for years shot a deer and a lot of ground hogs with it. still have it.

a few months ago i picked up a uberti saa 7 1/2 barrel in .38-40. got home and took 5 of my loads out at 10 yds. off hand kept all 5 on a playing card and called it good. i wan to get it out and shoot it more. ground hogs seam to be in great supply this year.

[2AALLTHEWAY]

Henry, that's a beautiful rifle! Thanks for posting. My only encounter with a 38-40 was in a l.g.s. some 15 or so years ago when a younger guy walks in with an old SAA. I was at the counter and overheard him tell the shopkeeper he inherited it from his grandfather recently. The hammer wouldn't cock and he was wanting it fixed and to know the value of it. It had rusted up quite a bit as well. Sadly this....idiot had taken it upon himself to sand off the rust with what appeared to be emery cloth! I wanted to be sick.

[oldhenry]

2AALLTHEWAY, I like the story about your one & only brush with the .38-40 caliber. I have a longer story about acquiring the '73 that I hope will not bore everyone.

I was very young, working an entry level job, married (to a wonderful woman) and had a year old son. Finances were slim (not good for a gun nut). I walked into a local Firestone store that also had Texaco pumps, sold guns, fishing tackle and what we called "dry goods" in those days. Leaning against a corner near the proprietor's desk was the '73 (not in the gun dept.). I asked if it was for sale (it was) & the price. The price had not been established, but the proprietor would call a local collector (wealthy & owned a local textile mill) to get an idea.
I figured then that I'd never see that '73 again.......that collector (we'll call him Mr. X) would snap that puppy up for his collection.
I dropped by a few days later & the '73 was still leaning against the corner. The proprietor says Mr. X says it's worth $50.00 (was Mr. X planning to stop by later & buy it or was he turned off by the .38-40 caliber?).
Next hurdle........I didn't have the $50.00. Bless his heart (a southern expression) that proprietor sold it to me on credit through the Firestone credit plan (6 payments of $9.00).
I guess Firestone thought the '73 was a set of tires.
It was a very good deal for me, but the best deal of my life was marrying that wonderful woman mentioned above...........59 years this September.
Henry

[2AALLTHEWAY]

I like your story better, it has a happy ending:)

[9.3X62AL]

Oldhenry--that story made my day. Thank you!

Drat this thread content, otherwise. My pragmatic mind says that the 40 S&W pistols that have multiplied in the dark within my gunsafe give the same ballistics as a Colt 1873 S/A in 38/40.......and the 10mm pistols dupe in a sidearm what the '73 Winchester carbine in 38/40 provides downrange. Doesn't matter--leverguns and S/A wheelguns are my kryptonite. And Cimarron Arms shows their Uberti-made examples of same in their online catalog. Starline makes the brass. RCBS and others make the dies.

Drat you enablers, anyway.

[onceabull]

If enabling is the order of the day,let it be known that I have a spare Buckeye Blackhawk with both(10 mm & 38/40 cylinders.) As the writer just above can testify,like all my goods,it's VALUE priced...!!!:roll: onceabull

[9.3X62AL]

You are such a BIG help, Onceabull.

Check for PM.

[2AALLTHEWAY]

Our hobby (obsession) is about more than pure ballistics. If it weren't we wouldn't have much more than a few rifle or handgun calibers. I'd go crazy!
The only downside to the 38-40 is the thickness of the brass. You could just chalk that up to the price of admission. I'm certainly not going to be the one to "talk you down".

[9.3X62AL]

Full agreement. I already refill 32/20 and 44/40 ammo, so adding 38/40 is like shaving hair from an elephant. In both of those calibers, the Starline brass seems to be of stronger construction than W-W or R-P brass, though not significantly thicker as best I can tell. Perhaps their 38/40 is of similar strength.

[oldhenry]

9.3X62AL,
When you get that Buckeye .38-40/10mm, at least post a photo...........it's the least you can do for the masses.

Henry

P.S. If you change your mind, I'd like a chance.

[35 Whelen]

I had heard all the horror stories regarding the loading of 38-40 and 44-40 cartridges, but I stumbled upon a Uberti '66 Sporting Rifle in 44-40 and couldn't resist. I cast and load for it same as all my straight wall cartridges. Only difference is I smear a little bit of Unique case lube on about every 3rd or 4th case as I size them. Everything is SOP. There is definitely a slight difference in fired cases from my Colt's vs. the Winchesters, but it makes absolutely no difference when loading and firing. After they're re-sized, it's immaterial.
The only thing I can figure about the people who said these were hard to load for is either they never actually tried it or they're ham-handed and don't know how to adjust a seating die. Much ado about nothing. But, I digress...

Anyhow, by sheer luck and timing I happened across a local ad for a 1890 production '73 Winchester 38-40 and wound up buying it. Then another identical 1886 production came along, then an '88 production. Next a 5 1/2" 1902 production Bisley, then a 4 3/4" lettered 1903 Bisley and finally a 1902 production SA...all in 38-40.

I've very good fortune in the accuracy department and all the rifles and revolver seem not in the least picky about loads. Initially I bought and RCBS 40-180 mould that casts a 192 gr. RNFP, followed by an Ideal 40143. Now a little eye candy to push those on the fence on over the edge.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Colts/38-40%20bullets-3_zps0wbshmpm.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Colts/38-40%20bullets-3_zps0wbshmpm.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Auctions/25%20yds.-1_zpsm7j5f2gr.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Auctions/25%20yds.-1_zpsm7j5f2gr.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Colts/15%20yds%20offhand_zpsznash7n3.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Colts/15%20yds%20offhand_zpsznash7n3.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Colts/Reduced_zpsclsapkf0.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Colts/Reduced_zpsclsapkf0.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/20160301_152631_zpsnoeq99jc.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/20160301_152631_zpsnoeq99jc.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Herco_zpsg5fcpll0.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Herco_zpsg5fcpll0.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds%20labeled_zpsz07tvqaw.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds%20labeled_zpsz07tvqaw.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Unique_zpsgzg7jjnt.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Unique_zpsgzg7jjnt.jpg.html)

And if that's not bad enough, the damned cartridge works well in the field!

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Gobbler_zpschqunhns.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/Gobbler_zpschqunhns.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/3%20point_zpswtji6qwy.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/3%20point_zpswtji6qwy.jpg.html)

So as one can tell, I LOVE the 38-40 cartridge and am on the lookout for more Winchesters and Colts chambered thusly!

35W

[2AALLTHEWAY]

35 Whelen, thanks for posting those great pics. You've just made some jealous hearts out here! :mrgreen: I've always wondered about the tales of reloading those rounds and honestly bought into it I guess. I load for three different bottleneck rounds with no real difficulty. However I did ham-up a 357Sig case with a maladjusted seating/crimp die and the brass for it is much thicker than the WCF line.
You are one lucky man. I wish you success on more great finds!:drinks:

[9.3X62AL]

35W--

Drat your enabling hide, anyway.

Have you ever had any issues with cases "setting back" in the revolvers after firing and tying up rotation? Colt tried making up some 25/20 WCF revolvers c. WWI or thereabouts, and reported problems with setback. What say you regarding the 38/40 interface?

[rintinglen]

In reloading those old WCF cartridges the Lee Factory Crimp die is your friend. I shoot and load a lot of 32-20 for my Browning 53 and my two revolvers, and until I went to the GCD, I'd lose 1 or two cases every time I loaded. Using the RCBS die to seat the boolit and then crimping in a final stage put an end to that problem. I shoot a lot less 44-40, only have one gun in that caliber, but the FCD works fine there too.

I have only owned one 38-40 revolver, it was a Colt New Service that had been rode hard and put away wet. This was back in the bad old days when internet sales were in the future, and mail order was illegal save for FFL holders. Ammo was costly, hard to find, and didn't shoot all that well, so I sold that one with no regrets.

[Harry O]

35W--

Have you ever had any issues with cases "setting back" in the revolvers after firing and tying up rotation? Colt tried making up some 25/20 WCF revolvers c. WWI or thereabouts, and reported problems with setback. What say you regarding the 38/40 interface?

I have been using the 38-40 for about 20 years now and never had any problem with setback of any kind. I started out with 44-40's, but because of the problems with modern production tolerances (or lack thereof), I switched to 38-40. They worked perfect from the beginning. I'll never go back.

Setback is real, but it is cartridge specific. I once owned a S&W in .22 Jet many years ago. That was a problem. I ended up downloading the cartridge and wiping down the chambers with carbon tetrachloride before I went shooting. That took care of the setback, but it wasn't much more powerful (and not as accurate as) a .22 Magnum. The 38-40 does not have that problem.

[bob208]

nope no set back problems.

[onceabull]

All this stuff re: 38/40's got me outside in this 101 d F. sxxx, to check out bullet supply sit..Not good with the current Fav. revolver bullet... But, Jon @ Western Bullet is still showing the RCBS 40-200 FN as in stock..Now,as most here know 'in stock" with Jon nowadays seems to mean anywhere from 30 -120 days from pay to receipt.. Perhaps my multiple repeat customer status (goes back to B4 I found some of you gents at "shooters") will help out.. Used to go on up the Bitterroot valley from suburban Darby and pick up my order when I was hunting in that vicinity...Jon used to list a Lyman SWC bullet for the 38/40s that I liked a lot, but those moulds I've seen at gunshows were unpriced,and the help would hit you with "If you have to ask, you can't afford it""..Onceabull

[9.3X62AL]

To hell with those predators at gun shows. See NOE, Accurate Molds, or Mountain Molds to feed a 38/40 with if needed.

The Lee 175 grain TC design can be pressed into service in some cases. My copy of this tool casts at .402" in 92/6/2 alloy, which I size to .401" for the 40 S&W and 10mm. Treat these like blackpowder rounds--seat them atop a 100%-density charge of RL-7 with their taper just a few tics below the case mouth edge--turn in a nice roll crimp--and good to go, levergun or rollerpistol of any vintage.

Many thanks to those above for the experiences & info regarding case setback.

[onceabull]

I think Fathertime has me slipping a click or three..Page 3 of a 38/40 Thread and I hadn't talked up my latest acq. This one is a David Clements custom job on an Abilene revolver that came out of the orig.plant @ Riverhead ,N.Y. Far as I know neither Abilene,or the post split firms ( Seville & El Dorado)offered any 38/40 guns...Now this one ,even "value priced" moves you up into 4 digit territory, but given what Mr.Clements gets for his work,it would pay you bigbux to shop here !!!..I only wish I could have afforded the other two reworked sixguns that the seller was offering at the same time...Oncabull