44 Russian weirdness.....help

[cowboy junky]

I'm playing with some 44 Russian loads for CAS and I am puzzled. I have used Clays in my 44 spl and really like the load. The starting load for the Russian in the Lee data is 3.7 grains for a 165 grain RNFP for 977 FPS which is pretty hot for cowboy.

I started with 3.1 grains of Clays and a 160 RNFP and I'm getting unburned powder and erratic results. So much unburned powder is coming out the chrono is giving false readings. I tried a harder crimp but still the same results.

I guess I could try more powder but I'm looking for around 600 FPS and I would think that should be close if 3.7 is 977 FPS. What is really puzzling is I can use 3.9 grs of Clays in the longer spl case with a 160 to 180 gr RNFP with great results......so I'm lost.

Any help, please.......

[35remington]

So much unburned powder is coming out the chrono is giving false readings."

That's a bit hard to believe. If the bullet's being propelled out the barrel the powder is probably being burned in some fashion. Powder don't fly through the air too well, so if the start screen is 15 or so feet from the muzzle you should be good to go.

Is there some reason you wouldn't want to start with the minimum listed load and go from there? I realize the super recoil of 3.7 grains Clays may nearly tear your arm off, but it's best to start with a known and work from there. Your loading density is probably exceptionally low, especially with the super light bullets you are using that don't take up much case space.

In your case, I'd work with what is consistent. Recognize that many CAS loads fly in the face of good handloading procedures and common sense when it comes to interior ballistics. If it isn't producing, time to haul out the Trailboss. It was supposedly designed with mousefart loads in mind.

[cowboy junky]

Thanks.......I guess.:confused:

[35remington]

You still seem to be confused, so let's look at why your load may be less than optimal, and relate this back to questionable CAS backed practice that allows super light loads.

The powder level you're using is about that appropriate for a .38 Special using a hollowbase wadcutter of nearly the same weight you're using for your bullet in a much larger caliber. The hollowbase wadcutter in .38 takes up considerable case space; your shorty bullet does not. Therefore, you have much greater airspace and much lower loading density. When your bullet moves, it increases the volume of the combustion chamber dramatically. The .38? Much less so.

As soon as your bullet moves, pressure radically drops. This demands a larger charge of fast powder to keep pressure at a reasonable level and in the range of the combustion demands of the powder.

However, you're loading a smaller than recommended charge of powder. Pressure is low already. The bullet opens the combustion volume too soon, keeping pressures low, and poor burning results. Along with poor ballistic consistency, something your CAS condoned practice does not take into account.

Assuming everything else is in order, if you keep banging your head against a wall all it's going to do is hurt. In this case, if the ammunition is proven to be well assembled otherwise and it's just the load that's lacking, change the load until results are as you intended. You may find that good ballistic consistency results in a load that is more powerful than you want.

In this event, you have a choice to make. Get another powder and try again, or live with the extra velocity. Since CAS seems to be more about winning and risking blooper loads than firing a bullet that may actually have anything to do with power, your choice seems to be made for you.

Which is to try something else if Clays doesn't work out.

[WildmanJack]

Cowboy Junky. Listen to Remington35. I have been using Clays as my only powder due to the fact that I have like 6 pounds of it! I switched to Trail Boss and got much better consistency with my rounds. Better accuracy and not a whole hell of a lot of difference in recoil. Now mind you that I'm shooting .45 Colt and to be honest I have never seen a Russian 44. Go buy a pound can of Trail Boss and try it.. I realize that it's not as clean burning as Clays, but it takes up a whole hell of a lot more room in the case so it solves one very important problem. The fact that using Clays in such a small amount, a double charge is not easily spotted, I know your are probably as careful as everyone else on this board about loading , but , it happens and the last thing you want is a double load of Clays in your cowboy gun..
Hang in there and keep your powder dry..
Jack

[missionary5155]

Hello Cowboy Junky I have been loading 44 russian for 16 years and have only used Unique amd #5 for my loads... so I cannot help you with the Clays.... BUT I can say Unique and #5 have NEVER given any trouble under any situation... Unique will ignite and expell 44 russian bullet (195 gr is my preference as that was a REAL bullet) as low as 4 grains... have not tried less ???

[cowboy junky]

Rem35
I really hate to be the new guy on the site that asks for advice and tries to bite the hand that feeds him…..but you are obviously trying to use me as an example to beat up on CAS shooters for some reason. I really understand that safety is paramount with any shooting sport but there is nothing unsafe about my loads. The loads I have been since 1998 are very reliable and I have had no issues with them at all. No squibs, safety issues, blooper loads, etc. Sure, I see guys push the limit and while these are light loads they are consistent, reliable and safe which brings me back to the question I asked and the confusion. I’m sorry you feel so strongly against the way I choose to shoot and if talking down to me helps you get your word out that’s ok but you really didn’t answer the question.

I totally understand everything ya’ll are saying and that’s exactly why I am so puzzled. Let me try to explain it better. If I take a 44spl case and put 3.9 grains of Clays and a 160 grain RNFP in it things work fine. No issues at all. I have shot the loads in winter summer and fall with great results. Since the Russian case is smaller than the special case by quite a bit the case has much more powder proportionally than the special (about twice as much) but it isn’t as reliable. Since the power, primer and caliber are the same that’s what I don’t understand.

To get the Russian as reliable as the spl load it actually has about the same powder in it but of course then it exceeds the recoil and velocity of the spl load…….which brings me to post this question.

WildmanJack,
I have used Trail boss in the past and while it did fill the case more I had primers backing out and it was very dirty compared to Clays so I switched back to Clays. Maybe Clays is faster burning and stops the primers from backing out but I haven’t seen Trail Boss on the burn charts yet.

So, I’m still confused.

[Heavy lead]

What gun and what is it chambered for? Is it a Russian chamber? Or are you shooting the Russian in the longer 44 Special? This may be part of the problem if it is a longer chamber. Also bullet diameter, throat dimension, too light of a bullet pull, too light of a crimp all could be a problem. Let us know all the details. Somebody will figure it out. Even if it's by committee!

[Heavy lead]

How hard are the boolits. If they're too hard, could be part of problem too.

[35remington]

No disrespect to you is intended; my disdain is for loading to levels where the powder is near to not producing proper ballistic results, with pressures that are way too low. Dangerous loads are only a short step, or mismatched gun, away. It's just that when loading CAS extra light, you may not develop the velocities you should to work properly. Despite what the manuals say. This is a hazard with any borderline very light load. Flirting with absolute minimums may be as hazardous as flirting with maximums. Doesn't seem very safe to me.

Which is why I suggested loading heavier at the 3.7 grain level, then decreasing. You should be able to chronograph the heavier load, and as you decrease, if things go to hell, you'll know where the problem lies. Pretty simple. So I did indeed answer the question by suggesting a straightforward test that isolates the powder as a variable, and if you want to know what a problem is, you eliminate one possibility at a time. It sounds like it may not be what you want to hear, but it's an undeniably effective way to address the problem.

Since you've been loading awhile, it should be pretty obvious to you whether bullet pull is poor, as it's easily tested and the most likely contributor to problems. Likely you are assembling these loads with the same equipment used for the .44 Special you mentioned.

One other thing - try positioning the powder near the primer and firing a shot, then try with powder near the bullet. See if ignition is affected. If it is, it's another sign that loading density and low pressure is a problem. It's gotta be really low to affect a fast powder, and sometimes anomalies may occur that are hard to pinpoint.

Something bothers me about Hodgdon's data compared to your results. Compare Trailboss - they give the minimum of 3.3 grains or so for about 750 fps and only about 7600 psi. Then look at that for Clays - 3.0 grains gives about the same velocity, and about the same pressure. This implies that 600 fps loads would generate really, really, low pressure of the sort you may be seeing - likely well below where the powder was intended to work correctly, and this may indeed be true for you in actual practice. This sounds like it is what is happening with you, so have you verified your velocity in any way? (Try backing up - flake powder isn't very aerodynamic and the bullet should easily outrun it to the chronograph). I must say I wouldn't be thrilled about it either, but at some point you've gotta see where you're at, speedwise, to answer your mystery.

I recommend you do this, however possible over your chronograph, and your question will be answered in all likelihood.

Now, something is up - perhaps that data is off, perhaps it just doesn't go that fast in your gun. Hodgdon did mention that cold weather is a problem with light loads, and guns with generous tolerances may produce lower velocities than they should. If your gun has loose cylinder throats the bullet has little start resistance, and the bullet may kick out of its case before the pressure gets high enough to burn properly.

So what you should be getting may not be what you're actually getting. Keep in mind even Hodgdon doesn't recommend loads producing less than 7600 psi and 750 fps - and a 600 fps load will produce substantially less pressure than that - so Hodgon not only recommends a minimum load, but a minimum velocity. If you're getting a lot less velocity than Hodgdon recommends, they don't recommend what you're doing, irrespective of what the actual powder charge may be.

If all else is proper about the load, you may have answered the most relevant question - whether only 600 fps is practical in your gun with Clays with a light 160 grain bullet. It may not be. No great loss, as there are many other bullets and powders that can serve.

Get that chrono going somehow. If it's 600 fps with a 160, Hodgdon will tell you pressure is really low, even if everything else about the gun and load is correct. Ask them if they recommend that. Nothing like getting it from the source.

[cowboy junky]

Thanks everyone. I don't mind doing the leg work but I just didn't know where to start. Lots of great stuff here that should help me get going. I am shooting the Russians in Ruger OM Vaqueros pistols /44 Mag.......which may be a concern after reading some of the replies. I use the same bullets (which I cast from wheel weights), federal 150 primers, and clays. The crimp is a roll over crimp and I started light and have gone to a heavy and it didn't seem to help as much as I thought it would. Unless it's still not enough??? I’m only using the Calys because I have it and it worked so well in the light special loads for me but I’m not concerned about switching if it helps.

I started CAS with my hunting pistols since I was all ready had them and now (10 years later) I'm still committed to that caliber since me and my wife have all or guns and reloading equipment in that caliber. I would love to switch to 38 like most others have but I don't have the 6,000 -10,000 dollars to make that happen. Especially when our guns are cut, engraved etc so they are not really a good resale item.

My wife is small and has never shot a gun until she met me a few years ago and while the 44 spl loads have worked fine for me I'm trying to work up a lighter load for her mainly. Nothing unsafe just trying to get her more comfortable and less muzzle flip for quicker sight acquisition. The 44 Russian "seemed" to be the answer for that but I don't know if it was now.........I will get more data after I get a chance to shoot though the chrono .......thanks again everyone.

[Bass Ackward]

I totally understand everything ya’ll are saying and that’s exactly why I am so puzzled. Let me try to explain it better. If I take a 44spl case and put 3.9 grains of Clays and a 160 grain RNFP in it things work fine. No issues at all. I have shot the loads in winter summer and fall with great results. Since the Russian case is smaller than the special case by quite a bit the case has much more powder proportionally than the special (about twice as much) but it isn’t as reliable. Since the power, primer and caliber are the same that’s what I don’t understand.



Think angles.

Fire comes out of the flash hole has a venturi effect. In other words it's fan shaped. I would think that it's the same size holes in both cases. So the longer case should have some powder exposed to the initial flame if gravity is working properly.

But in the shorter case, more powder is likely hiding in the dead space below the flame that must bounce back off the base of the bullet. If it does. Sounds strange, but you may need a hotter or longer burning primer. OR a bulkier powder that requires a higher filling charge to get your powder into the flame.

Since primers are always in the center, with short cases, the larger the caliber (diameter of the case), the more deadspace volume. Ever wonder about an advantage to rim fires?

[35remington]

Another anomaly I've noticed...you claim 3.9 grains in the .44 Special is being loaded with good results, but are using 3.1 grains in the Russian.

Eight tenths difference. Hodgdon goes down to 3.6 grains Clays in the Spl, 3.0 grains in the Russian. Six tenths difference.

Once source I have gives the case capacity of the Russian at 27.3 grains, the Special at 33.2, or about 22% more case capacity in the Special. You're loading 26 percent more powder in the Special. Which means the loading density in the Special, given equal bullet seating depth, is higher than in the Russian.

Whatever you're doing in the Russian doesn't result in "proportionately twice" the powder amount in relation to the case volume. In actuality, you have the about the same or less loading density (proportionately less). Assuming similar seating depth.

Maybe part of your testing should also include reducing your Special charge a bit and see if things go downhill as well. It's always informative to know how close to the edge you may be skating.

Perhaps both are borderline, but for slight differences in loading density the Special is on the good side of consistent results.

I find it difficult to believe you'd miss any of the other obvious stuff in handloading, so I am curious to see what varying the charge will do for you. Presumably you are using good brass. It's difficult to get really good bullet pull with a short bearing surface 160 in .44 caliber, so low intertia is exacerbated by going hand in hand with low bullet pull. A kind of double whammy.

For a conventional flake powder, Clays is actually quite bulky. Not as much as Trail boss, but few other standard powders exceed it for bulkiness. It's in the range of Red Dot and 700X, which are quite fluffy for their weight as well.

[azrednek]

Just a guess or a shot in the dark (no pun intended)!! As previously mentioned neck tension may be the problem. A relative of my X-wife had an old Colt Lightning in 44 Russian. He was reloading with an old Lee Loader and using Unique he measured with the spoon in the kit. Boolets loaded with the Lee kit were so loose they could be twisted loose by hand and even with the mild recoil they would jump forward out of the case. Usually by the third shot in a fully loaded cylinder the small powder charge just didn't properly ignite and left allot of unburned powder residue. His powder and primers were at least 10 years or more old and likely contributed to the problem. It was also very difficult to get a decent crimp with the Lee kit.

After I trimmed and re-sized all his brass in my 44 Special die and trashed many of the old worn out balloon head cases. He assembled the ammo with the Lee kit switching to a new and fresh can of Bullseye, the problem went away. Even though he couldn't get a tight crimp with the Lee kit, with properly re-sized brass the boolits stayed in the cases and didn't come loose from the recoil.

[Swagerman]

CBJ, I've found the lite .44 caliber bullets like 165 grains are nothing to worry about as to pressure in modern firearms...even when loaded up to 900 to 1,000 fps velocity.

Recoil is lite as well with these smaller bullets.

Here is an example of 180 grain Hoch mould bullet swaged to .432 diameter which is a special feeding for my Taurus oversize cylinder throats of .434 diameter which is a .44 special revolver.

I also have and use a lot of 163 to 165 grain bullets, and load them up to around 900 to 1,000 fps.

Jim

Note: The center section of this target is shot with .45 Colt loads, can't remember the powder or grains, this is a target that was previously shot at...then later shot with .44 special loads.


http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/PC150014Hoch180grainX1.jpg

[EDK]

I'm using several Original Size VAQUEROS/BISLEY VAQUEROS for Cowboy Action Shooting. 200 grain Lyman 427666 or Group Buy 200 grain 44 full wadcutters mostly; some 250 grainers of various types. I tried the 165 grain 44 SLIMS, but they just didn't work very well for me.

It would be a lot less trouble to use 44 magnum brass so you could get a good roll or taper crimp on your loads. Even 44 special brass would probably be an improvement. The boolit jump to the throat from a short casing isn't helping accuracy either.

Powder selection is a vast area. I've used TITEGROUP, UNIQUE and 231 with good results so far...a can of HERCO is the next experiment...it worked well for me in the past.

Not to slam anyone, but getting too carried away with "lite loads" for cowboy shooting creates too many problems for me. I try for 900+ feet per second on my 357 and 44 reloads...shoots flat, but not "magnum level" recoil.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[Swagerman]

I have to agree, the lite bullets, especially those below 160 grain shoot extremely low and require a higher POA to hit desired POI.

================================================== =======

Here are some .44 Russian Hodgdon loads right from their talbles...

160-165 GR. HP38 4.5 gr. = 878 fps 8,300 CUP / Maximum load: 5.2 gr. = 1,002 fps velocity 10,400 CUP

Titegroup 4.0 gr. = 884 fps velocity 6,100 CUP / Maximum 5.3 gr. = 1,076 fps velocity 12,000 CUP

Clays 3.0 gr. = 776 fps velocity 7,300 CUP / Maximum 4.0 gr. = 977 fps velocity 11,100 CUP

================================================== ========

The British .455 cartridge used a 265 grain bullet to good effect, it had an extremely short brass case. Velocities were in the 600 fps range and shot well.

What the .455 can do, I would think the .44 Russian could duplicate that load range.

Now here is some flat shooten 265 grain bullets that dropped that weight from a Lyman #429244 GC mould. These slugs require a 6:00 hold which is a good one.

However, they aren't any power house reloads, but fun to shoot...so should make a good cowboy load if that's your thing.

Jim


Now here are some hefty 245 grain punchers at a little over 1,000 fps velocity...after finding the POA started working my way up the ladder to the center bullseye...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/245grain429235622X.jpg

Then we have some good 265 grain bullet work at 20 yards...very hard to see 2-1/2" circles.


http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/PC200018Addtext265GrA716Xtextadded2.jpg


The above shot with the model 441.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/Taurus3inchbarrel44spl-1.jpg


Bullets used...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/PC230023bullets674X.jpg

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks everyone. I don't mind doing the leg work but I just didn't know where to start. Lots of great stuff here that should help me get going. I am shooting the Russians in Ruger OM Vaqueros pistols /44 Mag.......which may be a concern after reading some of the replies. I use the same bullets (which I cast from wheel weights), federal 150 primers, and clays. The crimp is a roll over crimp and I started light and have gone to a heavy and it didn't seem to help as much as I thought it would. Unless it's still not enough??? I’m only using the Calys because I have it and it worked so well in the light special loads for me but I’m not concerned about switching if it helps.

I started CAS with my hunting pistols since I was all ready had them and now (10 years later) I'm still committed to that caliber since me and my wife have all or guns and reloading equipment in that caliber. I would love to switch to 38 like most others have but I don't have the 6,000 -10,000 dollars to make that happen. Especially when our guns are cut, engraved etc so they are not really a good resale item.

My wife is small and has never shot a gun until she met me a few years ago and while the 44 spl loads have worked fine for me I'm trying to work up a lighter load for her mainly. Nothing unsafe just trying to get her more comfortable and less muzzle flip for quicker sight acquisition. The 44 Russian "seemed" to be the answer for that but I don't know if it was now.........I will get more data after I get a chance to shoot though the chrono .......thanks again everyone.

Howdy Cowboy Junkie. You've hit a kindred spirit in me, as I shoot 44 Russians exclusively for CAS, and I love the round. Got an open top and an 1866, and am waiting for someone to come out with an early-style #3 for my second pistol. (Right now, I use a EMF SAA in 44 Spl. for the second pistol.)

I noticed a couple things about your load right off. The combination of small powder charge, light boolit, and short-case in long chamber are not conducive to good ignition and combustion. My smokeless load is 4.4grs of W231 (very similar in speed to your Clays) with a 210gr RNFP big-lube boolit. Note that my load of powder is heavier, my boolit is heavier, and the chambers of all of my guns are shorter than yours.

My load, depending on whose reloading manual or article you read, is anywhere from below recommended-starting-load to 0.1gr above max. The important thing for me is that it shoots accurately, to point of aim, and is not hot/dangerous in my guns (regardless of the wide variety of loading data out there). I think what you need to do is up your load to 3.7grs, and possibly up your boolit to 180 or even 200grs. You will get better ignition and burn of the powder, and the problems you are describing will go away.

There comes a point of diminishing returns to down-loading cartridges, and even though your loads are "safe," they aren't performing up to snuff. Light charges of quick-burning powders, like your load, need some resistence to burn well. The crimp is a place to start, but I'll bet money you're going to need a heavier boolit.

The funny thing is, that back in the old days, westerners were using the 44 Henry with a 215gr boolit & 26-28grs BP for ~1150-1250fps from a carbine, and nowadays, many a CAS shooter looks upon a load like that as a magnum... [smilie=1: My goal in shooting the 44 Russian is to duplicate the old 44 Henry load. It's still relatively light, compared to our modern cartridges, but it represents what was "heavy enough" on the real old-west frontier... And, it avoids the problems that are often run into when developing the ultra-light loads.