Pondering Independence Day

[Thundarstick]

America won its independence from England via a bloody war, a rebellion against the ruling government.

On what grounds is a Christian justified in killing other than defence of life or country? Is all taking of human life murder? Do we currently enjoy a life bought by men who dammed their souls to eternal death? I'm quite sure there have been Christians on opposite firing lines trying their best to end one another's life. Is killing something that is just going to happen in this realm?

I'm sure this one don't belong in the chapel, but I'd like you to have scripture to back up your theories!

[Ickisrulz]

Excellent question to ponder. Personally had I lived back then I don't know I would have felt justified as a Christian to take up arms against an established government. But my knowledge of what actually occurred is limited so I cannot judge those living in that time.

The recommending of books has no end, but Norman Geisler touches on this very subject in Christian Ethics. This book is a pretty good resource to understand how and why Christians having different views on ethical issues.

We have things much different here in the USA today. The established government is actually the US Constitution. So the removal of leaders who violate the Constitution does not seem, to me, a violation of the Bible's general admonishment to obey the government. Although I don't advocate violence to do so.

[wv109323]

All killing is not murder. The OT Bible demanded capital punishment for several crimes. Many crimes that we overlook today and try to correct by imprisonment. Also I believe self defense is justified to protect one'e life.
David would not kill Saul,though Saul was in pursuit of David's life. But David had no problem in killing Goliath because he was threatening the Jews.
The American Revolution is a tough question. The original colonists came to America for freedom of religion. After the Declaration of Independence, the British were more the aggressors than the colonists. The British could have given America it's freedom without a fight but chose not to do so.
I have read that only 6-7% of colonists were active in the fight for America's freedom. Also a lot of the fanning the flames of Independence was the preachers in their sermons to the congregation.
Also during the Civil War there was Christian killing Christian, with both sides declaring they were right and just in their actions.

[Thundarstick]

Rom 13:1-7
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.
For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing.
Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.



This thread has had greater than 70 views and only 2 comments, with no scriptural connotations. It's my understanding that the OT laws would not need to be reiterated by Christ as he came to fulfill the law, not rewrite it.
I've asked these same questions on, about, rebellion against government in my own Bible studies at different churches.

The answer is always the same defining silence!

[Ickisrulz]

Rom 13:1-7
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.
For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing.
Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.



This thread has had greater than 70 views and only 2 comments, with no scriptural connotations. It's my understanding that the OT laws would not need to be reiterated by Christ as he came to fulfill the law, not rewrite it.
I've asked these same questions on, about, rebellion against government in my own Bible studies at different churches.

The answer is always the same defining silence!

I took the Romans reference to be implied in your question. If you read my post again with this in mind you will have my thoughts at least.

[Thundarstick]

Thank you Ickisrulz for your replies.

I guess another way to ask this is, why do so many Christians seem to glorify rebels, rebellion, and revolt? Is Satan not the father of rebellion and revolt? I truly have never understood this! Does the end justify the means? I've even heard other Christians say, "we need another civil war"! My reply is always, "do you even think about what your saying?".

I've just always found this perplexing as a Christian.

[jcwit]

Then I guess we should have just let Hitler have his way!

[Thundarstick]

Then I guess we should have just let Hitler have his way!

Please explain how this was rebellion? This was one nation declaring war on another, unless you do intend to show ends justifying means?

[Ickisrulz]

As I read this passage, there are two ideas:

1. Let every person be subject to the governing authorities.
2. for (i.e., because) he is God’s servant for your good

Once a ruler is no longer a benefit for those governed, the idea of a Christian's need to obey diminishes.

This passage highlights respect, revenue and taxes. So, at least from what I have been taught about the Revolutionary War, it raises some questions about Christian involvement.

This passages does not suggest we stop sharing the Gospel (the Apostles ignored prohibitions against this) or be passively led to slaughter by the government. It doesn't suggest one nation should allow another to do whatever they want (evil) either.

[Thundarstick]

Points will made, and we'll taken brother!

[jcwit]

Then I guess we should have just let Hitler have his way!

Please explain how this was rebellion? This was one nation declaring war on another, unless you do intend to show ends justifying means?

Of course the ends justified the means, unless you think the extermination of the Jews was a good thing.

[DCP]

America won its independence from England via a bloody war, a rebellion against the ruling government.

On what grounds is a Christian justified in killing other than defence of life or country? Is all taking of human life murder? Do we currently enjoy a life bought by men who dammed their souls to eternal death? I'm quite sure there have been Christians on opposite firing lines trying their best to end one another's life. Is killing something that is just going to happen in this realm?

I'm sure this one don't belong in the chapel, but I'd like you to have scripture to back up your theories!

All sins equal.

Mr. Graham has also been asked whether all sins are equal in God’s eyes. This was his answer:

It is always difficult and dangerous to attempt to list sins according to their degree of seriousness. In one sense, all sins are equal in that they all separate us from God. The Bible’s statement, “For the wages of sin is death …” (Romans 6:23), applies to all sin, whether in thought, word, or deed.

At the same time, it seems obvious that some sins are worse than others in both motivation and effects, and should be judged accordingly. Stealing a loaf of bread is vastly different than exterminating a million people. Sins may also differ at their root.

Theologians have sought for centuries to determine what the essence of sin is. Some have chosen sensuality, others selfishness, and still others pride or unbelief. In the Old Testament, God applied different penalties to different sins, suggesting variations in the seriousness of some sins. A thief paid restitution; an occult practitioner was cut off from Israel; one who committed adultery or a homosexual act or cursed his parents was put to death (see Exodus, chapter 22 and Leviticus, chapter 20).

In the New Testament Jesus said it would be more bearable on the day of judgment for Sodom than for Capernaum because of Capernaum’s unbelief and refusal to repent after witnessing His miracles (Matthew 11:23-24). The sins of Sodom were identified in Ezekiel 16:49-50 as arrogance, gluttony, indifference to the poor and needy, haughtiness, and “detestable things.”

When Jesus spoke of his second coming and judgment, he warned that among those deserving punishment some would “be beaten with many blows” and others “with few blows” (Luke 12:47-48). He also reserved His most fierce denunciations for the pride and unbelief of the religious leaders, not the sexually immoral (Matthew 23:13-36).

However, remember that whether our sins are relatively small or great, they will place us in hell apart from God’s grace. The good news is that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins and the sins of the whole world at the Cross. If we will repent and turn to Jesus in faith, our sins will be forgiven, and we will receive the gift of eternal life.