Tightening Groups with a Primer Switch in Pistols

[TXCOONDOG]

It seems that I read a post a while back that switching from Winchester and CCI magnum primers to Federal primers would tighten up the groups in a .357 and 44 magnum pistols.

Is my memory correct or am I missing something ?

[Lloyd Smale]

just isn't magicaly so. Yes primers can make a difference. Some times a substantial difference but I would never say that feds are automatically the best. Every load will have a primer preference just like it does a powder type and charge sweetspot. Ive seen times when my best load had X primer and X powder at X level and changing just the powder charge by one grain made a different primer do best. What some may see is feds having an advantage in a gun with a light hammer spring. they do go off easier with a double action gun. For that reason when I load for ppc shooting which is a da sport I don't even bother with another primer. I just tune the powder charge to get my best accuracy with feds. I guess it all comes down to what your looking for. If rolling beer cans at 15 yards is your game then don't fool with different primers but if you want to squeeze the last bit of accuracy out of your gun (and load) then try a few different ones.

[Lloyd Smale]

just isn't magicaly so. Yes primers can make a difference. Some times a substantial difference but I would never say that feds are automatically the best. Every load will have a primer preference just like it does a powder type and charge sweetspot. Ive seen times when my best load had X primer and X powder at X level and changing just the powder charge by one grain made a different primer do best. What some may see is feds having an advantage in a gun with a light hammer spring. they do go off easier with a double action gun. For that reason when I load for ppc shooting which is a da sport I don't even bother with another primer. I just tune the powder charge to get my best accuracy with feds. I guess it all comes down to what your looking for. If rolling beer cans at 15 yards is your game then don't fool with different primers but if you want to squeeze the last bit of accuracy out of your gun (and load) then try a few different ones. If I was loading ball poweders in a good single action sixgun in 44 mag the first one id try is a cci 350. I think some who claim standard primers work better for that job just don't own a chronograph. Ive seen swings as high as 300 fps using standard primers in the 44 and heavy 45 colts and don't even bother in something bigger. If your using 2400 to load your mags THEN id try both mag and standard because 2400 is much easier to ignite then 110/296 or aa9 or even hs6.

[TXCOONDOG]

just isn't magicaly so. Yes primers can make a difference. Some times a substantial difference but I would never say that feds are automatically the best. Every load will have a primer preference just like it does a powder type and charge sweetspot. Ive seen times when my best load had X primer and X powder at X level and changing just the powder charge by one grain made a different primer do best. What some may see is feds having an advantage in a gun with a light hammer spring. they do go off easier with a double action gun. For that reason when I load for ppc shooting which is a da sport I don't even bother with another primer. I just tune the powder charge to get my best accuracy with feds. I guess it all comes down to what your looking for. If rolling beer cans at 15 yards is your game then don't fool with different primers but if you want to squeeze the last bit of accuracy out of your gun (and load) then try a few different ones. If I was loading ball poweders in a good single action sixgun in 44 mag the first one id try is a cci 350. I think some who claim standard primers work better for that job just don't own a chronograph. Ive seen swings as high as 300 fps using standard primers in the 44 and heavy 45 colts and don't even bother in something bigger. If your using 2400 to load your mags THEN id try both mag and standard because 2400 is much easier to ignite then 110/296 or aa9 or even hs6.

Been my experience with rifles but just getting into pistol loadings heavily and realize I have to do my part! I'm looking for the best accuracy and consistency at 50 yards and beyond. I've been using Win and CCI (almost out and looking to try others) and depending on powder, charge, crimp, etc accuracy is so so in my revolvers (work done by DougGuy) . However, in my 10mm it doesn't matter as it can out shoot me with almost anything......yep firearms are like women and what one likes the other may or may not.

[tazman]

Been my experience with rifles but just getting into pistol loadings heavily and realize I have to do my part! I'm looking for the best accuracy and consistency at 50 yards and beyond. I've been using Win and CCI (almost out and looking to try others) and depending on powder, charge, crimp, etc accuracy is so so in my revolvers (work done by DougGuy) . However, in my 10mm it doesn't matter as it can out shoot me with almost anything......yep firearms are like women and what one likes the other may or may not.

What I found was very similar to what you just said. I also found that such experimentation became expensive in both money and time. Usually the results were moot because any significant accuracy increases depended more on my ability to shoot than the accuracy of the gun.
My abilities change day to day but have generally been improving. The guns will still shoot better than I do. I have had this amply demonstrated by numerous people who are better shots than I am when they used my weapons.

[lotech]

Ten or more years ago, I shot a bunch of groups comparing all the available primers, magnum and standard, using 2400 powder and an H&G #51 SWC, 160 grains wheelweight alloy. Loads were fired in a 6" Python from a benchrest at 25 yards. There was a difference in accuracy, but it wasn't much. I'd have to look up the data, but I got the smallest groups with a magnum primer (don't remember which one). Difference wasn't enough to make me switch from what I usually use, a CCI standard small pistol primer.

In retrospect, doing such testing at fifty yards would be more meaningful.

[tazman]

Ten or more years ago, I shot a bunch of groups comparing all the available primers, magnum and standard, using 2400 powder and an H&G #51 SWC, 160 grains wheelweight alloy. Loads were fired in a 6" Python from a benchrest at 25 yards. There was a difference in accuracy, but it wasn't much. I'd have to look up the data, but I got the smallest groups with a magnum primer (don't remember which one). Difference wasn't enough to make me switch from what I usually use, a CCI standard small pistol primer.

In retrospect, doing such testing at fifty yards would be more meaningful.

I have found that concept to be true in rifles as well as handguns. While one distance may be good for general testing, longer distances display the differences much better, or at least , make them more obvious.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I ran a PPC course at a gun club for a little more than 10 years. I tried many load options for .38 Spcl with 148 gr. WC boolets. The results that worked best FOR ME were Lyman cast 148 gr. button nosed WC cast from 50/50 lead, either Win. 231 or HP-38 powder with 3.3 gr., and Fed sp primers. My 7mm Rem. Mag. antelope/mule deer rifle load favors Fed. Mag. rifle primers and H-4831 powder loads. The thing about loads that Lloyd pointed out is that about all firearms may prefer a certain list of load componets to perform best with.Robert

[Drm50]

Speaking on primer issue only and much experience with S&W revolvers the primers make a big
difference. Revolvers set up for target usually have tuned triggers and springs. The Fed & Win
primers seemed to be the softest and gave uniform ignition under target main springs. The harder
primers caused groups to open up noticeably. It is a result of un uniform ignition. For example I
have seen K38s with worked main springs that were butter smooth, but sometimes didn't have
sufficient hammer fall to fire certain makes of primers.

[tdoyka]

i've worked with rifles before, but i never did revolver. its what most of the guys said, if your gun go boom and your target/deer falls over, don't bother with the primers.

[Lloyd Smale]

yes sir. changing primers might not know 2 inchs off the group size of your K frame but might cut a 1/4 inch off the group size. Yes shooting is a combo of load accuracy and your skill level but at any skill level a guy is going to shoot a handgun better if its capable of one inch 25 yard groups then you will with one that shoots a 2 inch group. 1/4 in means nothing if your rolling beer cans at 10 yards but if your shooting competitive, something like ppc, it does. How many times have you got credit for a 10 ring shot that was right on the 9/10 line. A quarter inch might put 4 or 5 shots in a round in the lower scoring ring. Don't know about any of you but most of the ppc matches ive won and shot were won by one point and 2 or 3 at most. Same with shooting pins or silhouette. Look at silhouette for example a 1/4 inch difference in 25 yards could mean 2 or 3 inches at 200 yards. I look at it this way for handgun loading. I'm not a perfect shot. Especially as I get older. So I need all the help I can get to hit what I'm aiming at and I'm not going to start with a handicap out of the box with a load that could be better. As to wasting components, that doesn't even make sense to me. Your shooting. Your honing your trigger skills, your improving the accuracy of your gun. Wheres the waste in that. We cast bullets so we can shoot more. If your shooting 20 rounds to check your gun out and saving the rest to go hunting you might as well not even waste the money it cost to get started casting. A few boxes of jacketed bullets or factory ammo would make much more sense. I actually know a few guys with that attitude. They will spend hours on the bench with there hunting rifle tuning it to perfection and then just throw together a box of ammo for there sixguns and if they hit the dirt back stop that's good enough for them. Just doesn't make sense to me. [QUOTE=Hardcast416taylor;4089241]I ran a PPC course at a gun club for a little more than 10 years. I tried many load options for .38 Spcl with 148 gr. WC boolets. The results that worked best FOR ME were Lyman cast 148 gr. button nosed WC cast from 50/50 lead, either Win. 231 or HP

[TXCOONDOG]

Since my 10mm shot well under an inch at 25 yds, got me to thinking that maybe my roll crimp is the issue.

Played around with my .357 loads. I have a load (158gr SWC at 1300fps) with a heavy crimp that shoots 1.50" groups at 25yds off the bench so I tried the same load with different crimps. Long story short, with a light roll crimp, it came in under an inch and verified with 4 out of 5 groupings. I also made a point to leave a dumby round in as I shot all five groupings and the boolit didn't shift in the case.

Now time to try her out at 50, 75, etc.

Thanks All.

PS: I'm a member of a 700 member gun club and shoot many times a week. Trigger control (freehand) has been an issue for me so I started dry firing (double action) twice a day and I have improved considerably.

Even though I'm a hunter, I make it a point to practice as I beat myself up when I shoot poorly or inconsistent.

I use to shoot at 15yds and on occassions 25yards. I sometimes hunt or scout with a pistol and after missing a few hogs at 75yards....I now practice at 50 and beyond.

I have become addicted to pistol shooting, not sure why....maybe the challenge or since of accomplishment.

[TXCOONDOG]

I forgot to mention that I'm going to have to work with my Redhawk 5.5". Since my largest caliber pistol has been the 10mm and .357. I quickly realized that shooting 300grains at magnum velocities is more of recoil beast than I expected and hard on my hands!

[FergusonTO35]

I find that Federal primers and Bullseye powder are nearly always the most accurate combo in any pistol cartridge. Not necessarily the fastest, but nearly always the most consistent velocity which really helps the accuracy.

[Blackwater]

Whether or not a primer change can and will make a difference is one of those questions there simply is no pat answer for. It might or it might not, and the ONLY way to tell is to test them and see. One buddy of mine shot a .45 LC a lot, and ususally used Unique and WLP primers. His gun shot very well with this load. Then he went to load up a few, and he was out of Unique. So he looked at what he had, and found some Red Dot. He looked up a likely load (6.5 gr.) with his bullet, and loaded up a few, then went outside to his porch where he tried them out. Lo and behold, they shot all 6 into less than 1" at 25 yds! Even better than his old Unique load had shot! He'd also found he was out of primers and had chosen some CCI LP's for these laods, and when he got more WW primers, found the CCI's made enough of a difference that he shot that load (Red Dot) with the CCI's. But his Unique load was best with WLP's. You just have to try loads to see what works best. There's no way of divining it via sacrificing chickens on the full moon, or any of that type stuff. Only testing will give you a REAL answer.

Each company has its own proprietary priming mix that they put in their primers, and these mixes can vary significantly. Some include finely powdered metals so that the priming flame shoots tiny glowing bits of metal into the powder, and some rely exclusively on hot gasses to ignite the powder charge. And each powder will respond to a certain powder charge, contained in a certain shaped case, in a very individualized way. So with all the calibers and case shapes, etc., it's easy to see why there's no pat answer to the accuracy question without good testing on paper. When it comes to accuracy, ALWAYS let your GUN show you what it likes. This means you need to do a lot of shooting to test many loads. You can thank me for all that extra shooting later. ;^)

[tazman]

I had one instance where a primer made a significant difference in pistol accuracy.
I was using a ball type powder in 9mm. The powder wasn't designed for 9mm but it was what I could get my hands on at the time(powder shortage years). I worked up a load using standard primers and was getting good results and good velocity.
Because I couldn't find any standard primers, I purchased some magnum primers and tried those with the same powder lead combination. Suddenly the accuracy level improved by about 25 percent.
Only thing changed was the primer.
I ran the load through a chronograph both before and after the primer change. The velocity only changed about 20fps. That is nearly insignificant. What did happen was the extreme spreads shrunk drastically. Apparently I was getting more consistent ignition.
I tried that primer switch with other powder/boolit combinations and it didn't make any noticeable difference for me. Just in that one situation.