round ball barrel for T/C Hawken

[sghart3578]

Hello friends,

I have an older T/C Hawken 50 cal percussion rifle. It is stock so I'm pretty sure it has the 1:48" twist rate barrel.

I have fair luck with home cast maxi-ball bullets but I can't seem to get a patched round ball to perform well.

I would like to buy a drop in replacement barrel with a slower twist. Where can I find one? And what would you consider to be a fair price? I have looked on the internet and I am not having any luck.

Thanks for your time,


Steve in N CA

[Edward]

Place a want to buy on swap and sell here as there are slow twist barrels listed occasionally .Bob Hoyt can make it a slow twist bigger ball shooter .

[scattershot]

I have a Green Mountain drop in replacement barrel on mine. It's 32", as opposed to the stock 28"er original, and it gives the rifle a great balance. .54 caliber, round ball twist, but offhand I can't remember the exact twist rate.

I'm not sure they even offer these anymore, but I can recommend these if you can find one.

As for your original 1:48 barrel, try lowering the powder charge a bit and using a bigger ball and a thinner patch.

Good luck!

[bubba.50]

I think the 50 & 54 caliber Green Mountain drop-ins were 1 in 70 twist.

yer options for "drop-in" are pretty much limited to findin' one of the GM's either used on one of the auction sites or luckin' into one N-O-S in a shop somewhere. or findin' one of the even more elusive roundball twist barrels from the T/C custom shop.

but as stated above, you could have yer barrel bored/re-rifled to a larger cal & rifled for RB's.

another option, there are several places that can make you up a barrel to your specs but most if not all of them would need yer existin' breechplug.

[sghart3578]

Thanks for the help guys, I appreciate it.

I will place an ad for sure.

I will experiment with the ball size and patch thickness also.

I have owned this rifle for a long time and I am just now getting around to learning how to shoot it.

I have to admit that I can see the attraction.

Yesterday I went to the range with my youngest son. He went through 100 rounds of .308 in his PTR and 50 rounds of ammo through his Mosin. Plus a box or two of 9mm and 45 ACP.

I was at the other end of the table. Once I developed a rhythm it was very relaxing. Except for not being able to hit anything.

[OverMax]

If you haven't bought a drop-in G/M Rd Ball Only barrel by now? Those who have a used one some fellers are asking a price higher then what they sold for new. Consider having one made by a competent barrel smith. There are a number of good B/P barrel smiths around. Just have to pick one out of the many and pull the trigger (ordering.)

I agree without knowing just what is what in your'e shooting. Most fellers I've helped seem to believe "the bigger the charge the tighter a barrels grouping" Its just the reverse when targeting B/P shooters on paper. Lighter charges create a identical arc time after time. Those times are few. But you'll know when such a sweet spot in accuracy presents itself.

[Gray Fox]

It might just be cheaper to find a good used Lyman Great Plains rifle in .50 with its one in 66" twist. Back before I started wearing trifocals I shot my GPR in .54 percussion in a local muzzle loader shoot with patched .530 RB and 60 grains of the dreaded Pyrodex RS power. I split the ball on the ax blade breaking two clay birds and on the next shot cut a playing card edgewise. This was all witnessed and proper, and I haven't shot quite that well since. I can still shoot cloverleafs at 50yards with that load if I work at it a bit. If I couldn't kill a southern whitetail with that load it would have to be my fault. I have a .54 TC Hawken, but like the balance of the GPR better. If I can find either a .50 or .54 flintlock for a reasonable price I'm going to scarf it up right quick! GF

[725]

So many good options. Locate that drop in and you will have two barrels. Give it to Bob Hoyt and he can either reline it in a slow twist .50 or rebore it to a slow twist .54, .58, or even a .60. I suspect that it would be cheaper to have Hoyt do the work than locate a serviceable Green Mountain. Really just have to see what the market has. He just finished a .54 1/60 for my T/C Impact, and years ago he did a slow twist .60 on my T/C Pa. hunter. Love 'em both. Best to talk directly to him and flesh it out. Just before he did my last one, he did a friend's Impact in a fast twist .54 for use with saboted conicals. He knows his stuff and is easy to talk to. 717-642-6696

[sghart3578]

After looking at the going prices for some barrels I am kicking around the idea of buying a Lyman Great Plains just for RB.

But I will keep looking.

[DIRT Farmer]

There are several options for barrels. There are standard breech plugs to fit the assortment of barrels out there. Try Tip Curtis or Pecatona river, both advertised in Muzzle Blasts. I have several barrels built up including a set of 42 inch barrels one in 40 and another in 50. they work well in chunk matches. I am considering having a 56 or 60 inch barrel made up for my "custom high dollar " target gun. {T-C Hawkins as apposed to my cheaper target gun, T-C Renagade}

[45workhorse]

Just a thought, what does the crown of the barrel look like and have you tried different patching material and thickness? You made mention of different patch thickness, have you gone up or down in ball size, .495, or even,.500. Just few thoughts. Good luck!
I am sorry for you also, you can't just have one muzzle loading rifle when the lights go out, they seem to reproduce!!!

[triggerhappy243]

Hello friends,

I have an older T/C Hawken 50 cal percussion rifle. It is stock so I'm pretty sure it has the 1:48" twist rate barrel.

I have fair luck with home cast maxi-ball bullets but I can't seem to get a patched round ball to perform well.

I would like to buy a drop in replacement barrel with a slower twist. Where can I find one? And what would you consider to be a fair price? I have looked on the internet and I am not having any luck.

Thanks for your time,


Steve in N CA

can you tell me what the condition of the bore is, and can you post a picture of your front sight? I may be able to give some advice.

[waarp8nt]

Michael Eder from flintlocks inc over Indianapolis way had a few in the white Green Mountain round ball twist drop in barrels at the last show. Might be worth giving him a call if anyone is looking.

[T Herder]

Sghart3578, if you’re in the South Bay or San Jose area send me a PM and we’ll try and setup a get together. My guess is with some patience and perseverance we could get it to shoot round ball. I’ve given away more muzzleloader bullets, patches, powder, etc. that my guns just don’t like. No point in keeping it if my guns won’t shoot it.

Here’s an example from my bone stock Renegade 50 caliber. I was checking load and sighting prior to hunting season. I was on the 50 yd. range due to no openings on the 100 yd. The boys were on the 100 yd. I walked over to them and asked if I could just confirm my load and sights, they said OK.
Specifics: Bore fouled from 12 shots with no wiping or cleaning. Load was 100 grains by volume 777 FFG, 0.495 round ball, 0.010 patch, two shots @ 100 yards, a half hour between shots, barrel cold. OK, I’m done. Best regards, Butch
198938

[sghart3578]

Butch,

That is a very generous offer, thank you. If I lived closer I would take you up on it. I live north of Sacramento.

That is some fine shooting for sure.

You are right, I am giving up too soon.

I sat down this morning with a pot of coffee and started working out a detailed plan of action. I just finished casting up 100 round balls from a Lee mold. They are .490" with pure lead. I have some Speer .490" round balls and some Hornady .495" round balls.

I have some pre-lubed T/C patches that are .015". I also have some dry and some pre-lubed pillow ticking that are .018". I have some different patch lubes including bore butter, Hoppe's #9 with BP lube added, some homemade Crisco/beeswax and one or two others.

When I finish my written plan I will have worked out combinations of ball size, patch size, patch lube, etc.

I plan on starting at 40 gr of Pyrodex RS with each ball/patch combo. I will then work up in 5 gr increments and document the results. I plan on swabbing between each shot with a wet patch followed by a dry patch.

After this if I can't get it to shoot then I will put it back in my safe where it has been for years and go back to my Marlin 1893.

Thanks to every one for their help and suggestions.


Steve in N CA

[triggerhappy243]

if you were to ask me................ and I know you did not, I believe starting at 40 gr. would be a waste of time. I would start at 60 gr. 3 shots with each combo. at 50 yards. start with one of the lubes and do the whole range with that particular combo. one group per sheet of paper. I do not wet patch between shots, you are adding moisture........... and adding a complication. when you see a group pucker up, then you have found something to experiment out to 100 yards.

[Gray Fox]

I have a Lyman flinter .50 with a 1:48 that does well with Hornady .490 RB and the prelubed TC pillow ticking patches for .50 & 54 balls. It might do even better with a better fitting patch, GF

[sghart3578]

To triggerhappy243:

Please chime in, I welcome everyone's suggestions and ideas.

I decided to start at 40 gr after reading a test by Sam Fadala. He was testing a 50 cal T/C Hawken, same gun as mine. He started at 40 gr (of FFFg) and worked up. His chrono reading for a round ball with 40 gr was a little over 1300 fps at the muzzle.

That would be fine for me if the accuracy is there. I am just punching paper and hitting clangers.

As far as wet patches between shots I ring out as much moisture as I can then follow with two dry patches. Doing this really makes loading shot after shot much easier. If you think it is unnecessary then I will dry swabbing with just a dry patch and see how that works.

In muzzleloader circles there seems to be two camps on this subject. Some guys say "I don't clean between shots and I can shoot all day and still hit the bull at 500 yards after 200 shots, etc. etc. etc." Maybe so.

Other guys swear by the swabbing method.

I am still new to this so it is another variable for me to work out. All I know is that if I don't clean between shots then after 8 or 9 rounds it is very hard to seat a load. With swabbing between shots the effort seems to stay the same.

And I shot 40 or 50 rounds at my last session.

[triggerhappy243]

I do swab between every shot, I just do not use a wet patch. But if a wet patch between shots wrings out some more accuracy, then yea go for it. I thought you were doing this for a hunting application.

[triggerhappy243]

............................. and if your groups turn out better than mine, I like BBQ sauce with my crow wings.

[sghart3578]

I will try both ways.

I had not planned on hunting with blackpowder but California does have some muzzleloader only special draws. Who knows?

[jjarrell]

Call The Gun Works in Oregon. Joe Williams will make a drop in up to 35" not including the breech plug, to whatever twist you want. And when I say drop in I mean all you have to do is put the barrel wedge and ram rod in and shoot. He doesn't need your breech plug. Only your stock so he can fit the barrel. I had him make a round ball barrel for me about 2 years ago. A 36"(with breech plug), .54 caliber with 1:79" twist. He finished in about 30 days. Cost was $350 in the white, and I couldn't ask for a better made barrel.

[45workhorse]

............................. and if your groups turn out better than mine, I like BBQ sauce with my crow wings.



Doesn't everybody.....:drinks:

[sghart3578]

Update!

After looking around at my options I bought a 54 cal T/C barrel from a member here. It has the factory 1:66" twist and is marked "round ball twist-1:66". I put it in a T/C Renegade stock that I had.

At first I was hesitant about changing calibers because all of my stuff is .50 but I bought a new Lee RB mold and went to town.

I shot it today for the first time. I had about thirty minutes on my way home from work. I loaded 70 gr of GOEX FFg with a .018" pillow ticking spit patch and a .530" ball.

All three shots into a 2" orange stick on dot at 25 yards.

I was very happy. Next week my son and I are going to ring it out at 50, 75 and 100 yards but I have a feeling that it is going to work good.


Steve in N CA

[Tom W.]

That's good to hear. I use a .444 Marlin case for a powder measure and blue jeans pocket drill for patches with my TC Hawken, although it is a .45 cal. I can put three round balls into a Skoal can at 75 yards. Or at least I could before my ailment.....oh, I use Pyrodex P. I wonder if it is still being made?

[triggerhappy243]

that's good to hear. I use a .444 marlin case for a powder measure and blue jeans pocket drill for patches with my tc hawken, although it is a .45 cal. I can put three round balls into a skoal can at 75 yards. Or at least i could before my ailment























.....oh, i use pyrodex p. I wonder if it is still being made?

it is.

[jcwit]

To the OP, you need to look at "Track of the Wolf".

Google it!

[duckey]

I have a TC Grey Hawk with 1:48 twist that shoots maxis and RB very well out to 50 yards with real black and Pyrodez. It will shoot out to 100 but I mainly shoot at 50. Curious as to what dia RB and thickness of patch you are using etc?

[Eddie Southgate]

I never had any issue with the factory TC barrel shooting round balls . Could be because I have avoided trying to hot rod it with 80 or 100 grain charges . When my TC was new and I was in my twenty's I shot with a club that shot 50 yd offhand , 100 yd cross sticks and a 200 yd gong ( 6" x 3' steel strip ) and .015 ticking pushed along by 55 - 65 grains of Dupont FFg gave wonderful accuracy at all three ranges . I use the 65 grain charge for Deer hunting and have never needed more . I tried Minnies and Maxies in the .50 and a .54 and liked them so much I gave both molds away to a fellow in the club I didn't like much .

Eddie

[bedbugbilly]

Steve - I'm no expert on T/C by any means but I have learned a lot in regards to availability of parts, etc. in regards to a Seneca project I am trying to make a drop in barrel for as a drop in in a different caliber.

My understanding is that the GM drop in barrels are no longer available. If I remember correctly, the Hawken has a 15/16" barrel on it? Here is a link to GM but their 50 cal 15/16 are shown as unavailable.

IF you could locate a GM 50 cal barrel blank, you might consider finding a spare breech plug for it and having the barrel made up. The larger size T/C breech plugs seem to be more readily available - some listed on flabay once in a while. But, you'd have to consider all the costs involved. Barrel, breech plug, wedge tenor installed, underrib and thimbles and sights - it would add up fairly quickly.

As suggested, you might place an ad in the WTS/WTS section and see if anything shows up.
Another avenue to check to check with one of the barrel makers and see what they could do to make one in the twist you want.

Before spending a lot of $$$ on a different barrel though, try working with different patch thicknesses. I'm assuming you are probably using a .490 ball? Over the years, I've had different RB rifles that were finicky on what they shot well. Typically you'd use a .490 but I've know some 50s that shot better with a bit smaller ball and a thicker patch and some that shot better with .495 and a thinner patch. It takes time to figure it all out but every rifle is different. You might spend big dollars on a new barrel only to find out that it doesn't shoot any better than the old one. I just bought a new Lee 2 city mold for a 50 cal - .490 but it drops them at .489 - not unheard of. I have one 45 caliber that because of a tight bore (Numeric barrel), instead of a 440 RB I had to go to a .437 - still wasn't a good match and when I went to .435 and thicker patch, it shot well.

Good luck to you - you'll get it figured out.

[pietro]

Once I developed a rhythm it was very relaxing.

Except for not being able to hit anything.




There seems to be a lot of that going around........ ;)


.

[Good Cheer]

Just a couple of things for philosophizing and ponderation...

If you pour over the black powder loading, ballistics and trajectory tables the magic bore size for the most whoopee-doo in round ball performance is somewhere between .50 and .54. It's that density of lead versus surface area and volume thing. The deer just don't care but it's a fun factoid to argue over around the fire.

My .52 bore flinter started life as a TC .50 (TC grooves really are shallow).

[Boogieman]

Re boring to 52 cal. with a 1in 66 or slower twist would probably be the cheapest route. a 1 in 48 twist will shoot RB quite well but will have a much narrower range of accurate loads. TC barrels are shallow grooved a larger ball with a tight patch usually gives best groups

[Good Cheer]

The round ball molds are kinda scarce but I found a .515 diameter.

[reivertom]

I have heard of a lot of folks shooting .490 cal RBs in the TC 48/1 barrels with good results. If you dial down your powder to about 75 grains and use the tightest patch you can load without flattening the ball. Also make sure you use dead soft pure lead. Then shoot and shoot, adjusting your powder as you go. For deer hunting at RB distances, you don't need a "hot load". Also try different powder size granulation if you can, such as 3f instead of 2f. The old tried and true formula for RB is a powder charge 2/5ths the weight of the ball. This will give you around 1700 fps. The gains as you go up from there are harder to achieve and the "Law of diminishing Returns" kicks in. In other words, after a while, more powder equals fewer and fewer gains and eventually wasted powder. In a tighter twist like 1/48 faster usually means less accurate with a patched RB because it can strip though the lands and grooves. The only way to find the formula for your rifle is to spend enough time making smoke.

[Buttonbuck]

I like the shooting methods of Dutch Schoultz an old guy whom I believe passed recently however published a great tutorial on accuracy with a tc muzzleloader. Using the dry patch system that you use a base of Ballistol and water as a semi dry shooting and clean between shots patch.

[Buttonbuck]

http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

[Buttonbuck]

Can you hunt with lead round balls in California? I had heard that green mountains military contract is up this year and may go back to making barrels. There is getz and coleron I will also vouch for Bob Hoyt.

[Buttonbuck]

Can you shoot lead round balls California?

[Maven]

All, The reports of Dutch Schoultz's death have been greatly exaggerated!:) Although quite elderly and suffering from macular degeneration, I'm pleased to say he's alive and well and posting on the Traditional ML Forum.

[hockeynick39]

Haven't shot my T/C Hawken in a few years. I started out using 90 grains Goex ffg, a Hornady .490 RB, and a lubed .010 pillow ticking patch. Shot fine for a bit, swabbed after every shot or cleaned out after a days hunting. Ran out of the Goex so I turned to Hodgdon 777 ffg and tried the same. Accuracy sucked, bad!!!!!! So........ talked to a buddy that was from PA and he said reduce the charge and try a dry patch over the powder charge and send the RB down wrapped in a lubed patch. Final load is 70 gr 777 ffg and a double patched .490 RB.

Target at 100 yds off sand bags:

http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/mypictures420.jpg