1891 argentine mausers

[Frank46]

I hae a couple actions that I would like to use for projects. Mostly the receivers and trigger guard sections. Specifically I'm talking about the 1891 argentine mauser.
#1 what could be used to get into the nooks and crannies caused by pitting along the wood line. And once that section has been taken care of, what abrasive could be used to impart a matte finnish to the metal prior to blueing
#2 what abrasive could be used on such things like pitted and rusty butt plates, barrel bands, barrel rings where they cover the bbl and wood handguards are held in place. I realize that maybe not one media is a do all thing and that other types of blasting media have to be used. So any suggestions, comments would be welcome.

And before I forget, where to go to have someone fit a mannlicher-schoenaur type bolt handle on a 1891 argie bolt. I don't weld and I myself would prefer that the bolt handle be tig welded having seen that type of welding done on cars,motor cycles ect.

Regards,Frank

[Antietamgw]

Frank,
Best way I've found to clean up pitting on something that will be reblued is to hit it with the bead blaster. You can tape off area you don't want touched. Finish with paper to 320 by hand and you have a nice finish. If you want a dead matte finish, fine glas beads are what I use. TiG is the way to go but there is still heat involved. A gunsmith that has done these and uses heat stop paste as well as a heat sink threaded for the Mauser bolt is the way to go. I don't know of any 'smiths to refer as I've always done my own work. Good luck with your project! There is one like it hanging on my future projects wall with a barrel chambered for .225 Win. Not sure I want one in 225 but it will be interesting to see what the lug seats look like when I pull the barrel. I'm a real sucker for carbines and the right '91 bubba carbine in the original chambering would suit me just fine!

[Frank46]

Antieamgw, Hope I got your handle right. One of the reasons i asked about different blasting media is that I have seen a few blasting jobs that were done. Unfortunately
whoever did the work didn't get all the rust out of the pitting. And eventually it grew back and messed up what otherwise was a nice job. Seen this done with both blued and parked finishes. One was a nice K38 which developed a nice skin cancer of rust.
I have a small blasting cabinet but before I bought any blasting media I'd check with the folks over here as to what was needed. My first rifle was a argentine 1891 mauser and always liked the slender stock and magazine. But felt a mannlicher schoenaur bolt handle would add a touch of class. I know I've never seen one on an argie. A couple mausers like the 1888 and one 98 mauser is all I have seen. Thanks for the info. Frank

[Antietamgw]

The media I used (beads) was bought probably 5 or 6 years ago and was used in the autobody industry. It is very fine and white/grey in color. I believe it breaks down over time to a finer grit. I probably run too much air pressure as my blasting booth is not a high dollar commercial deal - it uses suction for pickup from a sump I made up. This seems to require a little more air to pull a vacuum on the media feed line (bournelli effect or some such thing, I liken it to opening the window on your truck a little going down the road). I run about 80 lbs, I hear most run less. I don't know about others but I have never, ever had a problem with cleaning clear to the bottom of the pits. In my limited experience , with my setup, if I experienced that I would guess that I just didn't spend any time blasting the pitted area. I usually concentrate on the problem areas or hard to reach areas first, then blast the rest. Takes me 20 to 30 minutes with my setup doing barreled action and small parts. Some guys spend maybe 5 minutes. Maybe they have a better setup. I would if I did it for a living. The beads I use leave a very light matte finish. I can polish it out with 320 paper. I hear there are alot of different medias out there now and will probably have to research when I need to replace my media. I think if you see piiting under a bead blasted finish it is probably an operator error rather than a process error. This assumes that you keep the surface clean or use Brownells "Hold" or some other method of making sure the metal is absolutely clean before it goes to the precleaning tank. I saw a lightly chopped '91 Argentine on another forum a few weeks back. Price wasn't bad at all but the guy never responded to a couple questions I had about it. Maybe I'll go see if it's still around. They would look sharp with a spoon handle, wouldn't they?

[KCSO]

Frank
PM Me I don't do commercial work anymore but if you need something.

As to bead blasting I would go with glass beads and that should do just what you want. Otherwise dip and muratic acid to remove rust from the pits and then hand polish to 330 grit and RUST BLUE. You can do an excellent job at home if you take your time.

[Frank46]

Antietamgw, When I get this show on the road will probably get a fine grit bead meadia. I've see a few rifles that had this treatment and when blued has an almost matte finish which I think tends to hold protective oils ( I wipe down my toys with breakfree) better than just a smooth surface. And in my limited experience the way the receiver rings were scrubbed with respect to removing the argentine crest differs
sometimes greatly. Some are hardly noticeable while others look like they were done
during siesta time. Still trying to find that steel lyman 57 sight I put away for this project, put it away so good that months later still looking. Darned CRS.
KCSO, thanks for the info. Think I still have about a half gallon of muriatic acid around here. Use it for the pool. Only thing I have to polish stuff with is a homemade rig I threw together with a 3/4 hp motor from an ancient table saw but has lasted about 20 years. One thing about projects. When you get burned out on one, go to the next and then come back to number one. Sometimes you notice that the first one isn't too your liking and after the second go-around it looks way better. Thanks guys, Frank

[Antietamgw]

One thing I've found is that a fine bead blast covers no mistakes - pits will show but not quite as bad. Poor prep will show too. I usually hand polish well with 220 and a light polish with 320before I bead blast. The longer I do this the less I use my polishing setup and the more I polish with paper. It should look good enough that you hate to blue it. A fine bead blast looks pretty classy if you don't skimp on the prep.

[Frank46]

Antietamgw, I must be a sucker for used and abused rifles. But since retiring have found myself doing a lot of hand work on these and other rifles I own. Maybe I'm a frustrated mechanic or something like that. But it keeps my mind and hands busy and out of trouble. Of course being short of money might have something to do with it. Frank

[Frank46]

Gents, will be doing both the action, trigger guard, magazine and its internals, buttplate, and screws, of course the bbl and the frong sight. Looking for a ramp front sight that has to be driven on and held in place with a set screw. The front band has already been slotted to both have the ramp not right on top front of the bbl. I should be able to remove a little wood in the front forestock to allow the use of a barrel band type front sight. Deciding as to wether or not blue the bolt body, cocking piece and schroud after blasting. Or polish all those parts. Found myself out in the garage with the buffing machine and trying it out on one of the bolts. Been out of pratice so just took my time. Came out pretty good. But think I'd need two felt wheels, one hard and one soft. I have an origional 1891 stock in nice condition and refinishing it poses no problems. Would like something with a little red in it on the stock. So any suggestions what to use to get a little red in the finish. And trying to decide wether or not to leave the military sling swivels found on these rifles or go with some other type sling swivels. Most likely will stick with the military sling swivels. After blasting and blueing they should look pretty. This won't be an overnight project as I have a couple already in the works. And if anyone has a cherry 1891 argie bbl let me know.
Bore condition as nice as posssible and outside the same. with or without the origional sights is fine by me. Probably turn it into a mannlicicher schoenaur style with full length stock. With the argie's slender stock should look pretty neat. Thanks so far about the tips. Frank

[Antietamgw]

You know, CRS ain't so bad. You get to see everything in a new light everytime you look at it. I'm not sure what to add to give the red tinge, guess it depends on the stain or finish used. I've used Angelius Shoe Dye (don't laugh now, it's great stuff, saw it years ago in a post by a stockmaker that worked with some pretty fancy stuff). Got it at a shoe store. It can be mixed to the shade you like (get light, dark and red). I tried some on a cracked Turk stock that had some figure - wow! I can't afford wood like that and seeing that pretty piece of wood broken up like it was would bring tears to your eyes. Looked great even without finish and brought out every little color and variation in the grain. Personally, I like to blue the shroud, safety and bolt handle, polishing the body. Blued extractor looks good too but it doesn't stay pretty that long.

I have a little project going that I work on when I feel like it. It started as a '93 Mauser short rifle stock that had figure and color that always appealed to me. The finish on it now doesn't do much for it but up close you can see light and dark streaks and some fiddleback. It's hung on the project wall for years and I don't even remember where it came from. Guess I figured someday a close matching handguard might pop up and I'd put myself together a little '93 short rifle. One day I was bored with whatever I was working on and saw the stock again in a bit different light. I blew the dust off some parts boxes and found a barreled action I'd remembered and bottom metal with a hinged floorplate. I also discovered a new Rem 700 takeoff barrel in 7MM Mag. CRS is great!
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h232/Antietamgw/93%20Sporter/93Sporter012.jpg
It didn't take too long to find that the Rem 700 barrel would work out after eliminating the existing chamber up to the neck. I'd done this before but wasn't sure how it would work out with the existing barrel inletting. I hate "glass lines". A few slivers of wood in the barrel channel and inletted for the new barrel should result in a nice fit without any 'glass showing.
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h232/Antietamgw/93%20Sporter/93Sporter020.jpg
I'm a sucker for carbines, especially mannlichers, and figured I could recycle all these parts that had never met before. I kind of envisioned a basic military style carbine with some extra doodads. I found a barrel band from a Rolling Block that had been reblued ala Roy Weatherby that, with a little work, became a middle band and will get some more mods for a sling swivel. A Turk front band would work for a nosecap but looked a little stubby. I wanted all the barrel length I could get but finding a piece of wood to match what I had wasn't likely so splicing the forend wouldn't work too well. I spied a nosecap from a VZ24 and found that, if careful, it could be made to fit and look right. It's just a little big but if positioned properly, some welding and a little quality time with a file or mill, I believe it will look like it belongs when done. Some metal will need to be built up and some will need to be removed and reshaped. I figure it will look like a military mannlicher ought to (to me, anyway) once the bayo attachment of cut off. For now, it's a handy handle when it goes in the vise or mill. I'll end up with a 19 1/2" barrel which is acceptable. 21" would have been perfect.
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h232/Antietamgw/93%20Sporter/93Sporter018.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h232/Antietamgw/93%20Sporter/93Sporter015.jpg
It will be iron sighted with a Lyman 57 from another box and a new front ramp similiar to original but a little longer to handle a 3/8" dovetail or maybe even reworking a NECG or Ruger ramp. I like those easily changeable front sight inserts. I want to be able to go to a Lyman 17A without pounding sights in and out. If I go with a dovetail ramp I figure to add a set screw, like the '03 Spfd. to make it easy to change the sight insert. Also figured to set it up for a IER Leupold 2X but haven't decided on a base yet. I usually use modified bases for T/C Contenders for this but Weaver style just doesn't look right here and the Leupold doesn't give any leeway in ring spacing. I want it detachable as well though fancy levers and such arn't necessary. I'm thinking to make and fit a 6" long base, like a quarter rib, that will be no higher than the front receiver ring. It would butt up to the front receiver ring. I'm thinking a dovetail for something like a Tikka ring would work. Sako would be great but limits where you can mount the rings as does the Ruger ring. Lots of other little mods and additions are in mind as well. I think this will make a very handy little rifle for the field or range. Glad I wrote this down - may forget what I had in mind and now I have something to refer to! BTW, I may be off-line for about a week but look forward to hearing some more about your '91. Is it antique? I figure to have a blueing session about September.

[Frank46]

Antietamgw, Thats a right nice little carbine and that stock turned out nice. Basically what I'm looking for but with a slightly longer barrel. Now all you have to do is stick a
mannliches schoenaur type bolt handle on it to be perfect. yep darned CRS, one of these days I'll be looking for something and will stumble upon that 57 sight I so carefully put away. Actually I have a couple 91's with nice bbls and stocks. The one I was thinking of resurecting has a rusty and I mean you'd need a tetnaus shot after seeing it. But except for the pitting at the stock line the metal is in nice shape and all matching. I'll probably chuck the bbl in the lathe and turn off the ring on the bbl where it meets the receiver and take off the bbl. Have most if not all the origional metal and the front band has already been cut for a ramp front sight. Since I don't hunt anymore, will set it up as a cast boolit rifle. If I ever find that rear sight. Have a model 12 martini in 22rf that I got some weeks back. Got lucky at the last gun show
and found a no name buttplate and have fitted it to the buttstock. Some more work
making up a stock forend screw bushing for the forend and will try it out and see how it shoots. Was thinking of using stainless steel that I have in the garage. 91's
have slender lines and always liked them. I have a extra front band from a vz24 for your carbine if you need one. Should clean up nice with a little work. Frank

[Antietamgw]

Frank,
Thanks for the offer of the nosecap - I've got a few extra as well. Did you find the Lyman 57 yet? I'd sure like to see that '91 when you get it going. Saw a post about a '91 rebarreled to 35 Rem. That would be a dandy too, though I like the Argentine cartridge just as it is. I have a '91 carbine but with the issue sights I can't shoot it as well as the 1909 carbines. Those are right rifles and I don't want to change anything on them. I've had an itch to do some more on my '93 but haven't been able to find the time the last few weeks due to farm, work and an unexpected trip. I'd like to get it bedded and shoot it a little, maybe hunt with it this fall.

[Frank46]

Antietamgw, Nope haven't found it as yet. Beginning to resemble Indiana Jones quest for the lost sight. Have bought a few 1891 bubba's basically for the parts. Got one last month at a local gun show. Thats what I guess keeps me going with these sort of projects. idle hands and all that. Bought an el cheapo workmate and will be fitting a laminated piece of two 3/4" thick plywood 24"x24" so's I can mount a small metal working vise and a small woodworking vise to help me out. Too darn hot to be messing around in the garage this time of the year. Frank

[Antietamgw]

Have you seen this vise?

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Parrot-Vise-/H3302

It looks like the old Versa-Vise I've been using since about 1970. Bought it as a kid when I went to work in my neighbors gun shop. It is a dandy, can be flipped over to work vertically or horizontally. Extra bases are easy to make, I've got them scattered on different benches. If you don't have the vise yet, you might consider this.

[Frank46]

Antietamgw, checked out your reference. Looks to be what I'm looking for. Searched home depot and lowes. Lowes had a small woodworking vise on display but none in stock. Hate wasteing gas on the fruitless searches. Thanks for the heads up. Frank

[Pavogrande]

I have a 91 that has been somewhat poorly treated by a previous owner. It was cut off, barrel and stock, barrel drilled for scope mount (into the bore) receiver drilled, drill skated. and bolt handle heated and bent down. Still --- What would be a good caliber to rebuild it as? 250/3000? 7.62x39? or sell for parts? Since it is all there, so to speak, I guess it can be sold C&R?

[Frank46]

300 savage?, 35 remington?,7x57 mauser just to name a few. Shame that bbl got perforated good shooters just as they are. How bad did the drill bit chew up the receiver?. All is not lost. Maybe a adams&bennet heavy bbl for the 110 savage series of rifles could be cut back and rechambered for 300 savage. Hopefully someone more
knowledgeable than myself could chime in and give some more info. Frank

[Antietamgw]

I have a 91 that has been somewhat poorly treated by a previous owner.

Shame to see some of the work done in the past. I guess some feel inexpensive rifles warrant inadequate work. I can't claim to know '91 Mausers well (or anything else for that matter). If it were mine, I'd look hard at the bolt first, being concerned that the heat used to bend the bolt got the bolt head warm enough to draw the temper. I'd also look at where the front receiver ring was drilled and tapped. I've seen some Mausers D&T'd so that the scope mount screw was into the top lug seat, leaving a half-moon cutout in the lug seat. 'Smith that did one said it didn't matter, the ejector slot was there anyway... I like the original chamber just fine and they feed well also. Having to buy a reamer would be a hold up for me. They can be rented but if I'm going to spend 1/3 the cost of new to use it once(for now anyway), I'd rather just buy the tool. If receiver and bolt were good, I think 35 Rem or any of the others mentioned would be good. 7.62X39 would be borderline in my mind. I believe it is loaded to fairly stout pressure. Seems like a good capacity case for cast though. Even in the original chambering, I wouldn't push these or any of the small rings very hard. To save money I like to use new take-off barrels if you can find what you want at a reasonable price. Sometimes they are more trouble than they are worth. Douglas or Shilen are not all that expensive if the budget allows. Adams and Bennett are available unthreaded and unchambered in most calibers. I haven't checked the shank length and such for the '91 but the thread size would be the same as small ring spanish, swedish, etc. Brownells sold a Shaw barrel threaded for small ring Mausers in 35 Rem and other calibers. That just means you could probably screw the barrel on, not that you wouldn't need a lathe to properly fit and set headspace. These are fun projects if you have the right tools and some spare time.

[Pavogrande]

thanks for the thoughts on the 91 --- I guess there are quite a few choices in calibers - I am rather partial to 22 and 25 nowadays though 7x57 may be a simple retrofit. I do have an 03a3 barrel and a .222 from a 722. --- The receiver holes are not drilled through the ring or the rear bridge, but are not in line --or tapped -- looks like bubba was going to use an old style one piece mount that would cover the loading slot -- maybe I will get ambitious and tap the holes and fill them ------ or not -

[joatmon]

7x57! now that sounds interesting. I'll have to be on the lookout for a rough one!
Wonder if they have made antique statice yet?

[Antietamgw]

thanks for the thoughts on the 91 --- I guess there are quite a few choices in calibers - I am rather partial to 22 and 25 nowadays though 7x57 may be a simple retrofit. I do have an 03a3 barrel and a .222 from a 722. --- The receiver holes are not drilled through the ring or the rear bridge, but are not in line --or tapped -- looks like bubba was going to use an old style one piece mount that would cover the loading slot -- maybe I will get ambitious and tap the holes and fill them ------ or not -

I have a '91 parts gun hanging on the future project wall now, chambered for .225 Win I believe. If you like that chambering, let me know and I'll take a look at it. I'd sell it as I'm not going out of my way to build anymore .22's. They are a pain to cast and handle for me.

[Pavogrande]

aunti g - thanks for the offer -- but - I have so many projects in the box now i would need to live another 20 years to finish them -- at my age that is not a likely prospect -- In fact I should really get rid of a lot of these "fun" things and concentrate on one or two. But, which two???? So many fun things so little time -----

[wildwood]

I am new to you rforum but have a huge interest in anything Mauser, especially the '91. I used to have this beautiful little mannlicher stocked '91 in 7.65x54. I suffered from temporary insanity and traded it for a new .22 a few years ago, and was regretting that decision before I even left the gun show. My brother recently gave my son another '91 that has been butchered, we would like to either build another custom, or restore it to it's original state, any thoughts about this and where to get parts would be great.

[Frank46]

wildwood, try springfield sporters for '91 argie parts. Check gunbroker's listings for complete or sportered rifles. Might just find a bubba'd rifle for parts. Frank

[leadman]

I haven't bought anything from SARCO in a long time, but did buy a new old stock 1891 Argentine barrel from them about 8 years ago. Had this installed by Gary Reeder in Flagstaff. He didn't really want to mess with it but since I've had him do several other things he relented. I really wanted to keep this rifle and I had pretty much shot out the barrel.
After I got it back the first three rounds at 100 yards grouped 1/2".
I have taken javelina, jacks, coyotes, deer, elk, crows, praire dogs, etc.
I have much more modern rifles, but when I pick this up and aim at something, I know when I pull the trigger where the bullet will go. Hard to figure since I'm a lefty.

I also have what I have been told is a school rifle. Varnished stock, chromed metal bands, number on the stock. Not messed with at all, but bore is well frosted, still shoots pretty good.

[Gerry N.]

7x57! now that sounds interesting. I'll have to be on the lookout for a rough one!
Wonder if they have made antique statice yet?

BATFE or whatever alphabet segments they go by these days had a short fit of sanity a few years back and deterimined that all M1889 and 1891 Mausers would be given Antique Status as the factory records had been destroyed in WWII so none could be dated by serial # any longer and as they all were of an obsolete design and limited numbers, what the hell, just call 'em antiques and be done with it.

Keep in mind that these things have two lugs only and are not massively strong so cartridges and loads must be kept in the 40,000 psi range and lower.

Good cartridges are 7x57mm, 6.5x57mm, 250-3000, .257 Roberts. All will function with no modifications. Brownell's used to sell short chambered barrels threaded for the small ring Mauser actions. 7.62x39 would be another if you want to deal with the nightmare that is bolt face and extractor.

Gerry N.

[Char-Gar]

Everybody has their idea on what a proper finish on the metal should be prior to a blue job. Here is my notion that suits my tastes.

1. Polish the action with 220 grit emery cloth to get out any small pits.
2. Deeper pits can be taken out with a file.
3. Really deep pits should just be left alone. No sense screwing up the lines of a rifle to take out pot hole pits.
4. Cross polish with 320 grit emery cloth to get out all scratches from the 220
5. Final polish with 500 grit emery cloth.
6. Brush the metal with a very fine wire wheel (.002 or .004 wires). This will blend the scratches give a soft luster to the metal, much like satin. It won't be highly reflective, but not dull military like either.

Oiling the metal or the wheel will make it even softer. But I think it looks "cloudy" and prefer to do it dry.

Das what I like. I have done a hand mirror polish down to 1200 grit and then Crocus, but that takes allot of time and isn't as attractive as a brushed 400/500 finish.

[Frank46]

Chargar, on a few barreled actions there is some pitting at the stock line pretty sure that pitting could be belended and cleaned up some what by a fine wire wheel. Right now my garage is a mess and a full cleanup is dictated if I ever want to find anything. Thanks all for your suggestions. Frank