New Unique VS New Universal With Data

[guicksylver]

If you have questions about these powders here's some data for you..
http://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/new-unique-vs-new-universal-with-data.2674/

[35remington]

In contrast to his findings, both powders are quite position sensitive to pistol cartridges and airspace. Universal horrendously so.

[jmort]

I don't know about Universal, but Unique is not position sensitive

[guicksylver]

"In contrast to his findings, both powders are quite position sensitive to pistol cartridges and airspace. Universal horrendously so."

If your ready, I am going to be doing the same testing with both powders in 44 mag and 45 Colt or if you prefer any other caliber except 40....:-)

[Bzcraig]

I don't know about Universal, but Unique is not position sensitive

My experience as well.

[onegunred]

When you say NEW Universal do you mean the stuff made in Canada as opposed to the Australian made stuff ?

[Larry Gibson]

I've no real experience with Universal but I've been using Unique for 40+ years in rifle cartridges.

The test example would lead us to believe, whether he states it or not, that Unique is not "position sensitive". In his example with 13.9 gr of Unique under the 180 +/- gr cast bullet in the 30-06 the psi is 25k + which is well within where the psi range that Unique ignites and burns efficiently. Thus his load is relatively not position sensitive. However, if he lowers the charge of Unique to the classic 10 - 12 gr he would find that it is position sensitive. Additionally if he lowers the powder charge of Unique under a 150 - 170 gr cast bullet to keep the velocity 1400 - 1600 fps he will also find it to be position sensitive. Now if he really wants to see position sensitivity of Unique under his 180 gr cast bullet he can lower the velocity to a sub-sonic level........

To assume, based on the very limited test conducted, Unique is not position sensitive would be foolish at best.

Larry Gibson

[jmort]

As a general matter, Unique is not position sensitive.
That it can be in certain circumstances does not change that characteristic.

[jmort]

This is a sane discussion of the issue:


"Much has been written and discussed about the sensitivity of powder to its position in the case upon ignition. There are multiples of theories and opinions on this subject. I have done a little testing and have formed an opinion based on test results, not theory.

Executive summary:

"It depends."

Testing protocol:

I wanted a large case so there would be lots of room for the powder to move around.
Since this is mostly an issue with reduced loads and cast bullets I chose a cast bullet and a powder that some say is not very sensitive to position.

The largest case I have that would be suitable for this test was the .38-55 Winchester.

The Rifle was a Winchester 1885 Hi-Wall.

The rifle was mounted on sandbags front and rear.
The first screen was 12 feet from the muzzle.

For powder back, the base of the cartridge case was tapped lightly on the bench three times. The muzzle was elevated approximately 30 degrees and the cartridge inserted. The muzzle was then lowered to horizontal and the shot fired.

For powder forward, the tip of the bullet was tapped lightly on the bench three times. The muzzle was declined approximately 30 degrees and the cartridge inserted. The muzzle was then raised to horizontal and the shot fired.

For powder center, the cartridge case was held horizontal and shaken back and forth very gently. Then it was laid on the bench top and rolled two revolutions. The muzzle was set horizontal on the bags and cartridge inserted.

Each chronograph test was a string of ten shots shot through the screens at a target for group. Exactly the same as if the intent was accuracy testing.

The ten shots were fired five at bulls eye one followed by five more at bulls eye two. The entire process averaged about 20 minutes per 10 shot string.

Test 1

The Load:

.38-55.
Winchester Brass.
Lee 379-250 RF
Alloy ACWW
Sized .377
CCI 200 LR Primer
Unique 9.0 grains ( Weighed )
OAL 2.54"
Temperature 78 degrees
Chronograph PACT

This case holds 27 to 28 grains of Unique to the mouth and 20 to 21 to the base of the seated bullet.

This load was not chosen at random. It is my favorite plinking load with this cartridge



Results of Unique position sensitivity test:

Date 3/23/2011
Powder
Position High
Velocity Low
Velocity Average
of 10 Average
Deviation Standard
Deviation Extreme
Spread 5 shot group
100 Yd.
Forward 1227 1208 1214 5.4 8.0 19 1.04, 2.39
Center 1214 1195 1202 5.4 8.0 19 1.65, 1.15
Back 1237 1196 1209 11.7 17 41 1.38, 1.24










Note that the difference in average velocity of the three strings is only 12 fps.
That is LESS than the extreme spread in any of the three 10 shot strings.
Also note that the largest extreme spread occurred with the powder back.

My conclusion is that, in this test, Unique shows no detectable sensitivity to where it is positioned in the case.
Test 2

The Load:

.38-55.
Starline Brass.
Lee 379-250 RF
Alloy ACWW
Sized .377
CCI 200 LR Primer
A-2015 23.0 grains ( Weighed )
OAL 2.54"
Temperature 70 degrees
Chronograph PACT

This case holds 47 to 48 grains of 2015 to the mouth and 27.9 to the base of the seated bullet.

Results of A-2015 position sensitivity test

Date 12-10-2011

Temperature 70 Degrees


Powder
Position High
Velocity Low
Velocity Average
of 10 Average
Deviation Standard
Deviation Extreme
Spread 5 shot group
100 Yd.
Forward 1385 1261 1345 33 44 125 1.13, 2.21
Center 1375 1267 1306 34 48 108 2.13, 3.25
Back 1447 1353 1408 27 37 94 1.88, 2.25











In this test, powder back shows a little less extreme spread, a little less deviation, and a little more velocity.
I would say it shows a little sensitivity to powder position but not enough to affect accuracy or point of impact. All 30 of the above shots if combined into a single group would have hit in a 4" circle.

This is not a very accurate load. I have fired around 100 of them and the above groups are representative.


Test 3

.38 Special

Case capacity:
Bulls Eye Powder
Full 16.6gr
To base of 359477 11.3
To base of 148 gr WC crimp groove 8.6 (Lee C 358-148-WC )

Winchester Brass
C 358-148-WC
3.2 gr Bullseye thrown not weighed. - Hornady LNL AP (52% load density )
Sized .358
Alloy ACWW
CCI No. 500 Small Pistol Primers
OAL 1.26 ( to crimp groove )



These were not purpose loaded rounds. I loaded them a couple of months before as a batch of 300 "Plinkers".

Powder forward.

The cartridge was held vertical with the bullet down.
Tapped six times on the bench top.
The revolver was held muzzle down and the cartridge placed in the indexed cylinder.
The muzzle was rapped on the bench three times.
The muzzle was carefully raised to horizontal and fired.

Powder back.

The cartridge was held vertical with the bullet up.
Tapped six times on the bench top.
The revolver was held muzzle up and the cartridge placed in the indexed cylinder.
The butt was rapped on the bench three times.
The muzzle was carefully lowered to horizontal and fired.

Date 12-08-2014
Temperature 55 Degrees


Powder
Position High
Velocity Low
Velocity Average
of 10 Average
Deviation Standard
Deviation Extreme
Spread 5 shot group
100 Yd.
Forward 916 876 899 11.2 14.7 40 Not Fired
Center Not Tested Not Fired
Back 917 894 908 8 9.4 23 Not Fired






Note that the difference in the 10 shot average velocity is 9 fps.
This is less than one standard deviation.

If there is any sensitivity to powder position here it would take at least 100 rounds of each to detect it."
http://reloadingtips.com/pages/powder-position.htm

[guicksylver]

And we have this..
http://i.imgur.com/J9mLS3e.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/CrjNcBc.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vsk3MVs.jpg

[guicksylver]

New Purple Universal

[guicksylver]

I'll be getting some data using Old and New Universal and Unique with plain base bullets at around 1100 fps in the 30-06..using about 9.3 grs

we know that won't work ..right?

http://i.imgur.com/lnjSNs4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FttYQRt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rRZebyw.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/dIk7nxj.jpg

[Larry Gibson]

These tests were all conducted with 10 shot strings. These are the kinds of loads that demonstrate Unique can be position sensitive.

Rifle was level on sand bags when cartridge was loaded. Bolt actions had round in magazine then bolt closed. TD had cartridge loaded with nose up then laid flat in action, slid forward and breach closed. After loading; for level the rifle was fired as loaded, for powder to the rear the muzzle was raised vertical to 60 degrees +/- then gently lowered to bags for firing and for powder to the front the rear of the rifle was raised son the barrel pointed down 60 +/- degrees then gently lowered back on the bags and fired. Chronographed with Oehler chronographs with start screen at 15'. The same aim point was used on each target (100 yards) and the vertical dispersion between center of the high and low groups is noted.

308 CBC (same capacity as the 300 Savage) with the RCBS 30-150-FN

308W with RCBS 30-150-FN over 11 gr Unique;
Level; 1481 fps
Down; 1427 fps
Up; 1501 fps.
1.4" vertical dispersion

308W with 313361 (105 gr GC'd SWC) over 11 gr Unique'
Level; 1755 fps
Down; 1684 fps
Up; 1792 fps
2.1" vertical dispersion

30-06 with 311316 (118 gr FP GC'd) over 5.4 gr Unique;
Level; 882 fps
Down; 791 fps
Up; 934 fps
2.75 vertical dispersion at 50 yards.

45-70 with Liberty commercial cast 319 gr RN with 15 gr Unique;
Level; 1347 fps
Down; 1278 fps
Up; 1375 fps
With a Dacron filler; 1368 fps.
4 - 6" vertical dispersion because center of the very large and bad "down" group was difficult to determine with any degree of surety. The group with the Dacron filler was 1/2 the size of the "up" group and 1/4 the size of the "level" group.

Those results demonstrate powder position sensitivity.

I can also post similar results as has been posted demonstrating Unique isn't position sensitive using medium to heavy bullets (311291 and 311299) in the 308 CBC, the .308W and the 30-06. The same can be done in the 45-70 with 405 gr cast bullets.

As I stated at the end of the earlier post; "To assume, based on the very limited test conducted, Unique is not position sensitive would be foolish at best." You can post all the example "proving" Unique is not position sensitive but the examples I have posted and discussed take the "not" out of "not position sensitive". Cast bullet loads in larger cases can indeed be position sensitive.

BTW; If you use Unique in the 38 SPL under 110 - 125 gr cast bullet loaded down to meet the minimum fps rule (400 fps) under SASS rules you will find it to be very position sensitive.

Yes it does indeed "depend".

Larry Gibson

[jmort]

How does the RPM theory fit in here???

[guicksylver]

Larry just wondering how far "off" your data would have been if you hadn't fired the last 5 rounds of each string...

" I can also post similar results as has been posted demonstrating Unique isn't position sensitive using medium to heavy bullets (311291 and 311299) in the 308 CBC, the .308W and the 30-06. The same can be done in the 45-70 with 405 gr cast bullets."

This statement tells me that everyone is correct..use smaller bullets and you will get sensitivity..use heavier ones and you don't or not to the same degree..so good news... match the bullet weight to the powders' behavior..embrace "all the data"

[guicksylver]

How does the RPM theory fit in here???..

Everyone gets wound up to the point they fly off the handle....:)

[Larry Gibson]

"This statement tells me that everyone is correct..use smaller bullets and you will get sensitivity..use heavier ones and you don't or not to the same degree..so good news... match the bullet weight to the powders' behavior..embrace "all the data" "

That's pretty much what I said. The OP on the other forum proved that Unique is not position sensitive with his load(s). Exactly what jmort did also.

All I said was there is ample evidence to demonstrate Unique can be position sensitive with other loads. So they're right, 35 Remington is right, I'm right, jmort is right, hell, everyone is right with the loads they use. I fail to see what the uproar is about either and especially think we should be able to disagree and make our case civilly with out snippy posts........:-?

Larry Gibson

[williamwaco]

Jmort +1.

About 4 years ago, I ran the same test with the 38-55. Minor details differ but the result was the same. The spread from lowest velocity to highest velocity among forward middle and back was less than the spread between highest and lowest velocity of either forward, middle, or back.

No comment on the 38 special, but in the 38-55, at charges from 8 to 12 grains, it shows no sensitivity in my testing.

[jmort]

"I fail to see what the uproar is about either and especially think we should be able to disagree and make our case civilly with out snippy posts........"

"To assume, based on the very limited test conducted, Unique is not position sensitive would be foolish at best."
Larry Gibson

Fools like me say Unique is not position sensitive as a general matter.

[jonp]

Thanks for the link to the testing. Up till now real world testing of new powders has been spotty. Neither new Universal or Unique appear position sensitive.

[35remington]

Unique is commonly used in largish pistol cases like 38 Special, 44 magnum and 45 Colt, much more so than rifle cartridges. In such common usage extreme spreads with position variation, both with standard and Plus P loads, exceed 100 fps. When velocities are only in the 800 fps range to begin with, 100 fps is notable.

Univeral is worse than that. As a general rule, it is much safer to say and presume that Unique will exhibit position sensitivity until you prove to yourself it does not.....but never assume your findings are universally true. Check and see.

If someone asked me if Unique can be position sensitive, the correct answer is "yes." I ain't guessing either.

If you think Unique and Universal are not position sensitive, apply the powders under common usages as I do and prepare to have your stance rightly revised to account for real life.