45 Colt- Old School -ish

[Ken in Iowa]

Thanks to a recent thread on using Evaporust to clean old moulds, I now have an Ideal 454190.

I'm wanting to try a Binary mix, 20 or 40-1 and use Lee liquid Alox. I have a .454 Lee push through sizer to try as well as as- cast.

If this works well in my mentoree's long barrel Colt clone, I'll let him have the completed project. He keeps saying he wants to move west or north and be independent. I would be pleased to help him outfit his reloading needs.

Oh, this is a smokeless powder project, 700x, Unique for warmer loads, with Red Dot and Trail Boss for milder loads.

Thoughts?

BTW, I'll cast as many boolits with 1-2-97 for my own use too. Hopefully they will make a good 100-200 yard load with Unique in my Rossi '92

[M-Tecs]

I have had very good results with the 454190 and 8 grains of Unique.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

The 454190 is the ideal boolit for the 45colt in my opinion. 8.0gr of Unique or a case full of 2fg Goex is a good load that has proved accurate in every 45colt handgun I own. I don't own a 45colt rifle/carbine, so I won't comment on the ability (or lack there of) to accurately shoot at 200yards.

Light smokeless loads burn really dirty in the 45 Colt. You may even notice blow back (or is it blow bye?) if you load light in that Rossi. If I want less recoil I shoot lighter 200 or 230gr boolits. Your mileage may vary.

One final note, please do yourself a favor and get a steel sizer die. The carbide ones are slick, but the steel ones size the cases properly and generally produce more accurate ammo.


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[DougGuy]

I found 8.0gr Unique a little mild under the 454190. I like 9.0gr HS-6 a lot.

One factor could be the Uberti Old West model I use the 454190 in has rather generous throats, .4565" to be exact, and I size .456" for it. The chambers would be a little generous as well so it starts off with more case volume, and upon firing it gets even more volume than a cylinder with tighter specs.. The gun really likes 9.0gr HS-6.

[Char-Gar]

Under that bullet for factory level loads, I favor 6.2 - 6.5 grains of Bullseye. Over 1,000 loads per 1 lbs can of powder with excellent accuracy. This was the factory load for many, many years.

[Larry Gibson]

Under that bullet for factory level loads, I favor 6.2 - 6.5 grains of Bullseye. Over 1,000 loads per 1 lbs can of powder with excellent accuracy. This was the factory load for many, many years.

+1 on Char's load, especially if the cases are sized in carbide dies. The sharper time pressure curve (not to be confused with higher pressure) will expand the over sized cases and negate a lot of blow back. With Unique under that bullet I had to use loads that were to high pressure to not get blowback in my Rossi M92.

Also concur with 2ndAmmendmentNut; get the steel sizer as the 45 Colt actually is a tapered case. Yes lubing cases to size and then cleaning the lube off is considered a PITA by most these days but the correctly sized cases seal the chambers much more effectively. Redding makes a 2 ring carbide die that works well also but it is a bit spendy. I was NSing with a backed out carbide die but after a couple firings the cartridges wouldn't chamber in my SAAs so I had to FL size. A few years back I ran across an excellent used set of dies with a steel sizer/deprimer at a ridiculous low price. Now I lube, size, deprime, clean the lube off (in Thumbler w/sawdust), clean the primer pockets and inspect the cases......sounds like a lot but it really isn't. Then I load the cases on my Dillon SDB with the sizer removed and that part goes very quickly.

Larry Gibson

[Outpost75]

Another vote for Bullseye and 1:30 alloy.

I have used this in a Colt New Service M1909 for over 50 years. It also shoots well in my modern Rugers.

The same basic parameters work in all of the .45s and .455s.

In the .455 Mk1 with 0.87" case load 3.5 grains of Bullseye with original Webley Service bullet, or any of the modern Webley bullets from Accurate, 45-240H1, 46-262H, 46-290H. Reduce 10% or 0.3 grain for the shorter Hornady Mk.2 case. OK to use the full 3.5 grain charge in the Fiocchi Mk2 case with small primer using the 45-240H1 bullet only. For the heavier bullets continue the 10% charge reduction.

In the .45 Schofield load 4.5 grains of Bullseye with 255-260-grain bullet similar to Saeco #955, and 5 grains with 230-grain Saeco #954 or RCBS 43-230CM.

In the .45 Colt load 6.0-6.5 grains with 255-260 grain bullets and 6.5 to 7.2 with the 230-240s. From pressure tests which Larry has done for me, the 7.2 grain charge is safe with the long-nosed Accurate 45-262H bullets when seated out to fit the Ruger cylinder, but I do not recommend doing so for Colts or clones with the #454190 or similar bullets which must be seated deeply to stay with the length of a shorter cylinder.

A useful link with Larry's pressure data for the Accurate Bullets is:
https://castbulletassoc.org/forum/thread/ed-harris-45-cal-cast-bullets-45-colt/

[Char-Gar]

I just want to add an AMEN to the use of steel sizing dies for the 45 Colt for all the above mentioned reasons. Last month, I bought a NIB 1962 vintage set of RCBS 45 Colt dies. I paid a total of $20.00 to my door. I don't need them having several other steel sizers, but I wan't going to let them go begging for a buyer.

[Texas by God]

I love to learn things. Thanks guys for the steel die tip!

[guicksylver]

My vote... steel dies and the 454190 over 7.5 grains of Unique or Universal...at least out of my 7.5", OM Ruger Black Hawk..

[straphanger]

My $.02, absolutely on steel dies. I picked up a used set on ebay a few years back. Much better than carbide for all the reasons noted above. I shoot 454190 in an 1899 Colt single action (re-barreled and re-cylindered long ago from a .41 by a former owner) and several Colt NS revolvers behind 6.9 of 231. My mold casts about .455 which is great for the older Colts and their larger throats. Many also recommend Red Dot for this caliber, but I haven't tried it yet.

[Ken in Iowa]

Another great set of responses from the resident 45 Colt experts! Thanks guys!

For my personal use, I popped for the Redding dual-ring sizing die. I am most happy with it. The old steel die that I had did not play well with others. It is now spending the rest of it's steel life in prison until it returns to iron. :p

It sounds like I'll go with 30-1 for my binary mix and tumble with Alox, working out the details as it goes.

One last question for the Bullseye advocates, would Red Dot have a similar time/pressure curve to aid in case expansion?

[CraigOK]

One final note, please do yourself a favor and get a steel sizer die. The carbide ones are slick, but the steel ones size the cases properly and generally produce more accurate ammo. I've never heard this before. Is there a reason steel works better?

[Char-Gar]

I've never heard this before. Is there a reason steel works better?

Accurate revolver ammo introduced the bullet into the cylinder throat straight. In order to be straight, the case needs to be a good fit in the cylinder and not lay in the bottom of the charge hole thanks to gravity. The problem is compounded by the very generous size charge holes in most revolvers.

Unless you have one of the high dollar duel ring carbide dies, carbide rings size the case straight, producing a round that is pretty loose in the charge hole. Steel dies produce a slightly tapered sized case that is larger in diameter for a better fit in the charge hole.

Several times over the years, myself and others have posted case measurements with steel dies and carbide dies. There is a difference.

The 38 Special is another round that benefits from steel sizing dies, if you are after high end accuracy.

For many reloaders and shooters it is not worth the extra effort to lubricate cases for a steel die. For some it is well worth the effort.

[M-Tecs]

One of the reasons the 45 Colt gets a bad wrap for accuracy is the 45 Colt came out long before standardization of case and chamber specs. The case and the chamber on the 45 Colt don't match up as well as some of the other cases. The chamber is tapered. Steel dies tend to match the chamber better.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?236521-45-Colt-case-taper

[bedbugbilly]

I started out with a "hodge podge" of loading dies for the 45 Colt. I'd have to pull them out but I think I had a RCBS steel sizing die (without the de-priming stem as I de-prime all brass with universal de-priming die), a Lyman A-A expanding die and a CH seating die - and an unknown taper crimp die. Then I had a chance to pick up a set of Lyman A-A dies on the cheap - new and never used and then a Lyman carbide sizing die.

I only have on 45 Colt - Uperti 7 12" Cattleman. I tried a number of different boolits but have always gone back to my 454-190 Ideal mold. I have gotten my best results with that boolit over 6.0 gr to 6.5 gr of Red Dot.

My chambers seem to be quite generous on my Uberti so I learned early to only neck size my 45 Colt brass (mostly using Starline but some mixed head stamp range brass as well). I full length size it the first time and after firing, just neck size it to seating depth or just a tad beyond. At this point, the only time I use the carbide sizing die is on the first sizing of new brass or new to me range brass. Might be a different story if I had more than one 45 Colt. YMMV

I'll also add that with my old taper crimp die, I did experience one "boolit jump" when firing that locked up the cylinder - when I first started shooting the Uberti. I now roll crimp everything as I now have another Lyman A-A seating die - I seat and roll crimp in two separate operations. I load a fair amount of 38 Colt Short/Long/Special as well as 9mm and I have to say that even with "old dies" and mixed-dies, I find the 45 Colt to be the most fun and one of the easiest cartridges to load. Lots of fun with my Lyman 310 tongs/dies as well!

[Sakoluvr]

I know a lot of folks put down Redding's dual ring sizer because of cost, but when I started out reloading for the .45 Colt, that is what I bought right out of the gate. I have never regretted that purchase and don't even remember what my set of Redding dies cost anymore.

[Char-Gar]

I know a lot of folks put down Redding's dual ring sizer because of cost, but when I started out reloading for the .45 Colt, that is what I bought right out of the gate. I have never regretted that purchase and don't even remember what my set of Redding dies cost anymore.

Yes, when I look around my shop and see the amount of money I have tied up in reloading gear, I get all shaky inside. I calm down when I remember it came out in drips and dabs over many years. The purchase pain is long since gone.

I bought my first 45 Colt dies in 1962, they were C-H and they cost $8.25. I only had 100 Western cases and loaded them with 453423/8.5/Unique. The gun was a very good Colt New Service.

[USSR]

Ah, yes, the 452-423 bullet. I recently bought the fine MP hollowpoint version of this mould, and it creates beautiful 220 grain hollowpoints that work in both my 25-5 and Gold Cup. Talk about versatility.

Don

[Char-Gar]

Ah, yes, the 452-423 bullet. I recently bought the fine MP hollowpoint version of this mould, and it creates beautiful 220 grain hollowpoints that work in both my 25-5 and Gold Cup. Talk about versatility.

Don

Some years back, Buckshot hollow pointed my old Ideal SC 452423. It is a dandy. Currently I am playing with some 200 grain HPs cast by Matts in my Colt 45 Automatics. They are just 220 RNs bullets cast soft. They will expand when pushed by 7 grains of Unique in the 45 ACP case.

[Larry Gibson]

Some years back I had a nice M25 45 AR/ACP. I cast some GC'd 452490s out of 40-1, HP'd them to the drive band with the Forster 1/8" HP tool and then enhanced the HP with a Michael's tapered drill used for the rear sling swivel stud. As I recall they ran around 225 gr. Loaded them over 7.5 Unique which pushed them 1050 fps out of the 6 1/2" barrel. I put down a couple injured elk and deer with them as an LEO in NE Oregon. Never recovered a bullet but they were one shot effective. One old cow was in real bad shape and I could get about 10 yards from her. I put the bullet right under her ear and it left a gaping hole out the other side. The OSP gamie thought I was using a 44 magnum!

Larry Gibson

[Wally]

I have an RCBS steel & carbide sizer die in the .45 Colt. The steel sizer is better for reasons mentioned, however one can use the carbide sizer die if you adjust it to size 0.3~0.4" of the case neck and adjust the decapper rod. You then do not have to lube the cases. My Ruger BHK has cylinder chamber with a very noticeable taper at the rear of the cylinder, so the modified sizing hack works very nicely. Some revolvers may not be suitable.



+1 on Char's load, especially if the cases are sized in carbide dies. The sharper time pressure curve (not to be confused with higher pressure) will expand the over sized cases and negate a lot of blow back. With Unique under that bullet I had to use loads that were to high pressure to not get blowback in my Rossi M92.

Also concur with 2ndAmmendmentNut; get the steel sizer as the 45 Colt actually is a tapered case. Yes lubing cases to size and then cleaning the lube off is considered a PITA by most these days but the correctly sized cases seal the chambers much more effectively. Redding makes a 2 ring carbide die that works well also but it is a bit spendy. I was NSing with a backed out carbide die but after a couple firings the cartridges wouldn't chamber in my SAAs so I had to FL size. A few years back I ran across an excellent used set of dies with a steel sizer/deprimer at a ridiculous low price. Now I lube, size, deprime, clean the lube off (in Thumbler w/sawdust), clean the primer pockets and inspect the cases......sounds like a lot but it really isn't. Then I load the cases on my Dillon SDB with the sizer removed and that part goes very quickly.

Larry Gibson

[Ed_Shot]

Red Dot/Promo 6.0 gr. does everything I want with 200~250 gr. in my Blackhawk.

[waco]

I must say I do learn something new every single day here. Thanks for the good info.