Interesting CCW conversations.

[sawinredneck]

Yes, that's plural, was an interesting night for sure!
We went to one of my wife's friends for a get together, done fairly regularly, and the guy I was conversing with has had a CCW for many years and used to run a search and rescue/cadaver dog, I could not do what he's done after tornadoes, so I'm not slighting the man!
But we are outside talking and he's telling me he won't carry an auto chambered because he's afraid someone will come grab his gun and he's shot. But he's fine cattying a revolver loaded? I told him he may as well carry a brick, he's got better odds, an unchambered gun is an empty gun imo!
So we get home and Mrs. Sawinredneck starts on me, "What was going on with the gun discussion outside?" So I tell her. She freaks out I'm carrying a loaded gun?
Now to clarify some things, I met Mrs. Sawinredneck in Dec '87, we wed in June '93, she "knows" me! '92-93 she funded half a Glock 19 for my Christmas present, and I knowingly illegally carried it for years to protect her.
She could not understand why you need to have a loaded gun to make a split second decision. Seriously, her words!
So I have a friend that wants to carry an unchambered auto, but is fine with a loaded revolver?
Then a wife that doesn't think I need to load any of them so I can give the bad guys a fighting chance?
This is verging on divorce grounds now!

[Spoonerism]

I've heard that if you carry condition 3 you have 2 empty chambers. One in the gun and the other between your ears.

[BUCKEYE BANDIT]

I like that ^^^^^^^^^
i've heard that if you carry condition 3 you have 2 empty chambers. One in the gun and the other between your ears.

[FISH4BUGS]

That defeats the whole purpose of carrying the gun.
I carry a S&W 3914 with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. Can't get safer than that. That is why I like SA/DA autos. First round like a revolver the rest on SA.
That fraction of a second that it takes to chamber a round could be the end.
I suppose you could make his argument but I would rather be ready than not.

[HATCH]

Its crazy if you ask me.
I have pretty much carried 95% of the time for the past 4 years.
Ever since a coworker threw a knife into my office (not gonna say AT ME but it landed 2 feet behind me), I carried.
I have a CWP and it was against company rules.
The thing about CWP is just that, its a CONCEALED weapons permit.
No one knew that I was carrying.

But I really don't know the point of carrying a pistol that isn't read to fire.

[bob208]

it is his choice. I just hope he survives his first encounter to realize the folly of his choice.

[Love Life]

People make their choices in life. They have to live with the consequences.


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[Tracy]

Here's a pertinent article: http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.com/2010/09/myths-of-israeli-method-of-carry-or-why.html

[GhostHawk]

I don't carry, but I don't go out much. We don't have a lot of problems up here in North Dakota. Next to my recliner are hidden 2 guns. A old CZ-52 that shoots 7.62x25 and in a small plastic case a Hipoint C9 9mm. Both are loaded, one in the chamber, mag in the pistol, on safe, ready to rock and roll.

Because if you need it, you need it YESTERDAY! Not tommorow.

You may not have time to rack that action. You may not to warn that bad guy that you are about to shoot him by racking that action. You may want to shoot "through" something soft and concealing like a shirt or pillow.

Why would you give any advantage up you do not need to.

I think it is going to take a very real physical demonstration to convince your wife.

So find her a rubber knife. Set rules for the game. Minimum distances. Then alternate between "role playing" loaded condition, vs unloaded. Get her to get into playing the attacker.

Let her see that in loaded condition you are going bang bang bang before she covers half the distance. Where in unloaded condition she can be slicing your throat before a bang.

Play it out, help her to understand. Carefully.

[Handloader109]

You need a blue gun for this, don't role play with real gun. It's one thing to dry fire, but don't point a real gun at another person! Even, even! When it is "unloaded". I do agree with working with her to understand timing....

[ofitg]

She could not understand why you need to have a loaded gun to make a split second decision. Seriously, her words!

Then a wife that doesn't think I need to load any of them so I can give the bad guys a fighting chance?
This is verging on divorce grounds now!

I believe they call that "Condition Fife" -

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/Condition%20Fife_zpsq68hdh4f.png (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/Condition%20Fife_zpsq68hdh4f.png.html)

[LUCKYDAWG13]

it is his choice. I just hope he survives his first encounter to realize the folly of his choice.

+1 just hope that he carry's a wheel gun then

[Bzcraig]

When I first got my CCW in CA many years ago my wife too was agast that I wanted to carry. Like you, my wife knew my love of guns and while we were dating, she knew I kept a gun with me (not carrying as I was working construction) and she saw me take it with me to investigate a rukus outside my hotel room (was working out of town, where she and I met). She and I get an allowance each month that we can spend as we please. Since she was opposed to the idea of carrying, I used my allowance and moved forward. Now, she gropes me when we go out to make sure I am carrying. The biggest hurdle for her to overcome was the idea someone could get the gun out of the holster from behind. So I had her try and take the gun from the holster while my only defense was to use foot work and no hands. That convinced her! Before the resident RSO chimes in, don't read into this what doesn't exist, this was all done safely with a cleared and made safe pistol.

[JBinMN]

Why don't you have her see this video & show her that even LEO know about the "21 ft. Rule". That may be all it takes to convince her about your situation.
;)

G'Luck!
:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y49rv3QBtkk

[Echo]

I've heard that if you carry condition 3 you have 2 empty chambers. One in the gun and the other between your ears.

Plus ONE!

[sawinredneck]

I cleared my 1911 and had her act like a draw and chamber at the same time. She actually did it rather quickly, but I'm not sure she got the slide all the way back and that wasn't under duress. I don't have a blue gun right now, so I didn't try charging, but I asked her if her life, or our sons, was in danger, do you want me to do all of that, or take care of the problem and have the element of surprise. She's still thinking about that one.

[William Yanda]

[QUOTE=Love Life;4082827]People make their choices in life. They have to live with the consequences.


Or not.

[dragon813gt]

People make their choices in life. They have to live with the consequences.
Ain't that the truth. If one wishes to carry w/ an unloaded gun so be it. I will continue to carry a striker fired w/ one in the chamber. Any other semis I carry have decockers and one is in the chamber as well.

[bedbugbilly]

I'm old and I've been shooting for over 50 years - and I always preferred a semi-auto (the few I have had as I have always leaned towards revolvers) with a safety on it. BUT . . . . a few years ago, I got a semi-auto 9mm - sold it and now have a 9mm Shield that I carry if I don't carry my normal Smith 36 snub. I'm licensed in AZ and in MI - not that that makes any difference.

I often hear of those who think it is dangerous to have one in the tube - and I guess that's a "personal decision" but it isn't for me. When I carry a semi-auto there is always one in the tube and the safety is "off". I use a holster that coves the trigger/guard entirely and is a retention holster. If someone tries to go for my carry weapon, then I consider that they are going to try and do me harm and I am going to fight like $#%#!

I have gotten my wife to shoot a few times but she is not interested in carrying - and that is her decision. But with the way things are getting, when we go someplace and I am carrying, she doesn't give me any heartache over it as I think she is beginning to realize that there are a lot of bad folks out there that can do you harm.

I worked ambulance as well as fire/rescue for many years and I saw more than my share of "bad things". I understood a long time ago about those who will gladly kill another for a few $$ for drugs or whatever as well as those who are out there who just want to do harem to others for no reason at all.

I have been shot at while on emergency runs and I fully realize that when a SD situation comes up, you never know how you will react as each time will be different - BUT - most situations happen in milliseconds and the last thing I (personally) want to worry about is #1 - having to rack a round into the chamber and #2 - hoping that I remember to sweep the safety off when drawing from the holster. I have no problems in carrying a fully loaded DA revolver and I have no problems carrying a semi-auto that is a striker fired DA only. Personally, I don't care for "hammer" semi-autos" but that's my hang up and I know a lot of folks like 'em and carry 'em - and I say more power to 'em! While others may disagree with me, I think that anyone who has gone through training for a CCW, CPL, etc. and is knowledgable about their weapon and safety is a complete fool to not carry with a round in the tube and ready to go - they might just as well not carry at all as they will not be able to react in a SD situation when milliseconds - not seconds - matter and will make the difference between life and death.

A short time ago, I had an acquaintance (who is pretty much as left as you can get) find out that I carry and they asked me why I would do such a thing. My answer was simple - first - I'm trained and it's my right to carry and second and most of all, I refuse to be a "victim" or have my wife be one.

Don't mean to get on a "soapbox", but in many cases, those who don't understand why people get training and carry or who an't understand why you would carry a gun with bullets in it let alone one in the chamber have never been exposed to real life situations where their life is in danger nor have they seen firsthand, the results of such situations. I cringe overtime I sit in the car in a parking lot waiting of my wife and I watch single women or senior citizens come out of the store - sit their purse on the hood of the car to look for their keys or those who are completely oblivious to their surroundings and what could happen to them. I'm not an "alarmist" - I'm a "realist" and with the experiences I have had in life, I sometimes ask myself why I leave the house without carrying at the times that I do.

To each their own and I respect that - but it's also a shame that some are so "penny wise but pound foolish" - but that's their decision to make.

[Hickok]

Rooster Cogburn,, "Well if it ain't loaded and cocked, it dont shoot!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncJ7zIXTiSo

[Bookworm]

Wait.
You've been married for 25 years, and your wife didn't know you carried a firearm ?

I don't understand how that is possible.

My wife knows to walk on a certain side of me, arm in arm, to not interfere with the draw.

[sawinredneck]

My wife knew fully well I carried a firearm, I guess she just always thought it was unloaded?

[nvbirdman]

I was at the range one time and there were three police officers there. One instructor and two trainees. They were using shotguns, one shotgun had extra shells in a buttstock carrier and the other one the officer had to carry the extra shells in his pocket. In an emergency situation will the officer stop to think about where his extra shells are, or will he grab for one or the other and think he is out of ammo?
In an emergency situation your whole focus is going to be on pulling the trigger, not racking the slide to chamber a round.

[sawinredneck]

I was at the range one time and there were three police officers there. One instructor and two trainees. They were using shotguns, one shotgun had extra shells in a buttstock carrier and the other one the officer had to carry the extra shells in his pocket. In an emergency situation will the officer stop to think about where his extra shells are, or will he grab for one or the other and think he is out of ammo?
In an emergency situation your whole focus is going to be on pulling the trigger, not racking the slide to chamber a round.
BINGO!! At least it should be, there's too many other things to worry/deal with in a stressful situation!

[Blanket]

I carry cocked and locked for the last 40 years

[rockrat]

One of my instructors, ex-marine, ex-leo, ex-gunsite Raven(IIRC) said he always carries with a loaded chamber (striker fired) or if he has a DA/SA semi will have one in the chamber, hammer down, safety on. However, that said, he didn't recommend a 1911 with one in the chamber and cocked and locked. So, I guess, depends on the gun.

Carry an unloaded gun??? Ask her if she carries an empty purse!

Edit--I believe he meant that for the beginner shooter, the not carrying cocked and locked

[sawinredneck]

Nice on the purse comment!
As for the 1911, I regularly carry my Delta Elite "cocked and locked". I'm not sure why someone would recommend against that?

[am44mag]

That defeats the whole purpose of carrying the gun.
I carry a S&W 3914 with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. Can't get safer than that. That is why I like SA/DA autos. First round like a revolver the rest on SA.
That fraction of a second that it takes to chamber a round could be the end.
I suppose you could make his argument but I would rather be ready than not.

I'm with you on that. I carry a SA/DA for that very reason.

[Hickok]

Nice on the purse comment!
As for the 1911, I regularly carry my Delta Elite "cocked and locked". I'm not sure why someone would recommend against that? When I carry my Kimber 1911, it is cocked and locked. "If it ain't loaded and cocked, it wont shoot!"

198482

[imashooter2]

There are issues in marriage that are subject for discussion, and others which are not.

[Bookworm]

There are issues in marriage that are subject for discussion, and others which are not.

Well said. Understated and succinct.

And, oh! so true.

[TexasGrunt]

My wife walks three steps behind me, like a proper Muslim wife. Irritates the carp out of me because we're not Muslim and I can't hear what she says back there, she'll drift off and then I can find her, she won't turn her phone on. I've told her many times that one of these days I'm just going to go out to the car and come home leaving her in the store.

I always carry cocked and locked. I carry a 1911 98% of the time. The other times it's a Sig P938, cocked and locked.

[Lloyd Smale]

just chewed my wife out this morning. I have a 43 glock in the truck she drives. I keep it in the center counsel. Went to take it out because my son in law is borrowing the truck and he doesn't have a ccw. She had the counsel locked! I told asked her what would happen if she or I needed that gun quick. Youd have to pull the keys out of the ignition, unlock the counsel and get the gun? Youd be long time dead before you got it out. If you have to lock it up or unload it you might as well leave it home and wear a good pair of running shoes.

[Land Owner]

On a sidebar note, be sure to take your "pocket protector" apart for a thorough cleaning in regular intervals to clear out all of the lint and dirt that accumulates there, which will inevitably and eventually "gum up" the works. Not doing this can and will create a could-have-been-avoided "Bad Day" situation.

[BK7saum]

One of my instructors, ex-marine, ex-leo, ex-gunsite Raven(IIRC) said he always carries with a loaded chamber (striker fired) or if he has a DA/SA semi will have one in the chamber, hammer down, safety on. However, that said, he didn't recommend a 1911 with one in the chamber and cocked and locked. So, I guess, depends on the gun.

Carry an unloaded gun??? Ask her if she carries an empty purse!

That argument about hammer down, but carry striker fired always irritates me. What kind of an instructor is he? Aside from a Glock where the striker spring is held in partial tension, the rest (or most) hold the striker spring at full tension, Absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in a cocked and locked hammer gun. Actually the cocked and locked usually have more safeties involved than most striker fired.

Sorry for the rant. Some people have no clue how a firearm operates.

[Kestrel4k]

Here's a pertinent article: http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.com/2010/09/myths-of-israeli-method-of-carry-or-why.html
Thank you for the link; that was interesting reading.

[TexasGrunt]

That argument about hammer down, but carry striker fired always irritates me. What kind of an instructor is he? Aside from a Glock where the striker spring is held in partial tension, the rest (or most) hold the striker spring at full tension, Absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in a cocked and locked hammer gun. Actually the cocked and locked usually have more safeties involved than most striker fired.

Sorry for the rant. Some people have no clue how a firearm operates.

I agree. I've had Glock people tell me their pistol is safer to carry than my 1911. That's funny because I don't think there's a self inflicted wound named after the 1911.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I have encountered guys that carry revolvers with an empty chamber on the first trigger pull. I figured this was some sort of corruption of the old west style of, "load one, skip one, load four."

I have also talked with guys that insist on carrying autos with empty chambers.

Personally I think if you can't carry a gun safely loaded you probably don't need to be carrying.




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[sawinredneck]

The old single actions, without a transfer bar, sure, I can understand not wanting to carry it with a round in that cylinder. But as soon as its cocked it's ready to go, no wasted time or movements needed. But I can't understand that with a semiauto.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

The old single actions, without a transfer bar, sure, I can understand not wanting to carry it with a round in that cylinder. But as soon as its cocked it's ready to go, no wasted time or movements needed. But I can't understand that with a semiauto.

No these were modern small frame double action revolvers. Loaded with only 4 rounds, first trigger pull would result in a "click."


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[DerekP Houston]

*shrug* when i first started carrying, having it loaded/condition 0 felt weird for awhile. I got over it. My CCW choices don't feature a safety so it's either loaded or not. Ruger LCP, LC9S pro, and M&P 40 (woo new holster!).

My car gun is loaded but safety on (condition 1). Bersa 380 thunder, so SA/DA just have to thumb the safety off. It's just a backup in case I forget my CCW or am going somewhere restricted.

[Walkingwolf]

I carry condition I don't give a damn. IOW I worry about myself, and leave others alone. Nothing worse is that guy who is always telling people how, and what they should do.

FTR I carry round in the chamber whether semi auto, or revolver. I just don't care much for progressives.

[Biggin]

In 20 years of being married to me , my wife has learned to ride her own motorcycle and she carries her own gun.

[Handloader109]

Duh

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[sawinredneck]

I carry condition I don't give a damn. IOW I worry about myself, and leave others alone. Nothing worse is that guy who is always telling people how, and what they should do.

FTR I carry round in the chamber whether semi auto, or revolver. I just don't care much for progressives.
This conversation wasn't a pissing match, and I didn't intend for this thread to be either.
I just found it odd he chose to carry that way and I found it even stranger my wife would think I carry an unloaded gun.
He explained his reasoning for doing what he did, I explained my reasoning for doing what I do. Everyone was civil, we are still friends and I'm still married. I just thought it was an interesting conversation and thought it might make a good conversation here. So far it has been, and I appreciate everyone's input and reasoning so far.

[Love Life]

Here is a story that I believe is relatable to the topic at hand:

Back in 2006 in a far away land, myself and the other team leader carried M4 rifles with M203 grenade launchers slung underneath (Colt, of course). The rule of law from the king (BN CO) was that the M203 was not to be loaded when stepping out on patrol, but only to be loaded if in contact and being used. Reckon he didn't trust us fellers with them.

Anywho, we had trained for hours, days, weeks, and months on the use of our weapons.

Fast forward to contact. There we were, larger than life. The situation gets bad. Prime targets for 40mm HEDP present themselves, and guess what? Myself and the other fireteam leader couldn't get our M203's loaded fast enough to take advantage of the situation. I mean, we got them loaded but the wasted seconds opening the breech, stuffing a 40mm in, closing the breech, and getting our wonderful sight picture in lost us the chance to put them to the best use to end the engagement faster.

After that we said "F' the king!" and loaded our M203's prior to stepping. We didn't lose any time/opportunities after that.

The thing to keep in mind is the amount of training we had. We were very well trained on putting the weapon system into use, but you can't stop time; and you can't stop the movement of another individual. With that said, when I carry a gun it is chambered and ready to roll.

[Sean357]

Active Self Protection on YouTube has a few videos of encounters where people didn't have a round chambered. They usually don't end happily. They forget to chamber a round, don't pull the slide all the way back and it jams, or it gives the baddy the time to shoot while they try to chamber a round. Or a horrible mix of all of the above. The videos are good object lessons on why to carry correctly.



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[Walkingwolf]

This conversation wasn't a pissing match, and I didn't intend for this thread to be either.
I just found it odd he chose to carry that way and I found it even stranger my wife would think I carry an unloaded gun.
He explained his reasoning for doing what he did, I explained my reasoning for doing what I do. Everyone was civil, we are still friends and I'm still married. I just thought it was an interesting conversation and thought it might make a good conversation here. So far it has been, and I appreciate everyone's input and reasoning so far.

You can find it odd, but it still is not your choice. Talk about your decisions, and why. Liberty is based on personal choice, and responsibility.

[popper]

IIRC, Sen. Cornyn wanted a bill to require an empty chamber when carrying. Then there is the 'bad' guy in KC that tried to rob a store, tried to rack the slide and got a jam. Youtube vid was really funny.

[blackthorn]

As long as it doesn't deteriorate into argument, conversations are good. One may learn something (or not). In the end we all make our own decisions.

[Tnfalconer]

I'll add a few things.

First it was common thirty years ago with the hammer on an empty cylinder. Even then that was a throw back to earlier times when accidental discharges were common when a revolver got knocked around and discharged, most of the time into the ground....so that's one.

Even as recently as five years ago, law enforcement in certain areas of the country are taught and required to carry their duty weapon without a chambered round. Now we all know the stores of this causing issues for officers involved in shootings.

So basically what I am trying to say is that there are still folks who are stuck in antiquated ways and think that it is the safest, best way to do it. Trying to change their mind is nearly pointless as it isn't based in facts. It's their "feelings" on the matter. I have and will always carry a 1911 cocked and locked. Period, end of discussion. I don't change my carry gun, I don't alternate, I don't try new things either. It's hard to improve on perfection. Now then, in the past when I had a law enforcement role to fill I took scrutiny for carrying this way. Never cared....

[Tnfalconer]

You can find it odd, but it still is not your choice. Talk about your decisions, and why. Liberty is based on personal choice, and responsibility.

To me personally as long as someone IS carrying a weapon, that's half the battle. If they choose to carry it on an empty chamber, I can see fault with it but I'm not sure I would make it a point of contention. It is what it is and people have to do what makes them comfortable.The decision to use a firearm to defend yourself doesn't come in minutes. It comes in milliseconds when you least expect it. That's not the time to be chambering a round....but I digress.

[KCSO]

However you carry it all falls back to practice practice practice. If you don't put in the trigger time you WILL lose. I use to demonstrate empty chamber 1911 draws to my classes and to a man I could draw and chamber a round before the recruits could draw and fire. Do I recommend an empty chamber, no, but there are times when it might be mandatory. However you carry practice till the skills are honed in.