12 Gauge Subsonic Loads ?

[wildphilhickup]

Looking for some info on reloading 12 gauge hulls - subsonic. Not for trap or skeet, but for hunting / self defense.

Are there any good sources out there? Only able to find trap / skeet load info.

What hull?

What powder?

Best weight of shot to use? ( 1 ounce - 1 1/2 ounce)

Wads?

THANKS!

[GhostHawk]

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/953268336/federal-top-gun-low-recoil-subsonic-ammunition-12-gauge-2-3-4-1-1-8-oz-7-1-2-shot

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=78722

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/6/19/subsonic-shotshells/

Google is your friend.

[cpileri]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?289902-Help-locating-light-subsonic-12-ga-loads&p=3405738&viewfull=1#post3405738

[cpileri]

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Brochure-Subsonic-Loads/productinfo/00BSUB/

[cpileri]

http://www.metrogun.com/handloads.html

[RMc]

Alliant has a number of 1100 fps 7/8 and 1 ounce twelve gauge loads with Alliant Extra-Lite powder.

Remember all powder company velocity data is from 30 inch industry test barrels. From shorter defensive shotgun barrels the loads will be slower.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?type=2&powderid=28&gauge=12

[wildphilhickup]

Just what I am looking for.

12 Gauge
Case: Wichester AA compression formed (Should be the same in the new Winchester case)
Primer: Win209 or Fiocchi 616
Wad: WAA12 (1-1/8th wad)
Powder: ADI AS30N/Hodgdons Clays
Shot: 1-1/4oz Lead Shot

11 grains = 851 fps @ 5970 psi
12 grains = 910 fps @ 6915 psi
13 grains = 944 fps @ 8610 psi
14 grains = 985 fps @ 9840 psi

[RMc]

Just what I am looking for.

12 Gauge
Case: Wichester AA compression formed (Should be the same in the new Winchester case)
Primer: Win209 or Fiocchi 616
Wad: WAA12 (1-1/8th wad)
Powder: ADI AS30N/Hodgdons Clays
Shot: 1-1/4oz Lead Shot

11 grains = 851 fps @ 5970 psi
12 grains = 910 fps @ 6915 psi
13 grains = 944 fps @ 8610 psi
14 grains = 985 fps @ 9840 psi

Did you source this data through ADI (Austrailia) ?

[Geezer in NH]

Thread of links :violin:

[Kestrel4k]

Thread of links :violin:
Dude, this thread is way better info than tdoyka's youtube link threads. :roll:

[Cap'n Morgan]

I've been contemplating a suppressed shotgun design for several years: Most of the suppressors for shotguns add quite a bit of length and weight to the gun and only works on single-barreled guns. I had an idea of modifying an ordinary double-barreled gun to make the suppressor integrated with the barrels and not increase the overall length. So far, the project had been put on hold due to lack of a suitable/sacrificable gun. Then, recently, I came across an old clunker of an Italian o/u which had seen much better days - a perfect gun for the project.

I'm happy to say the design works as planned. The gun is ugly as hell, but using dedicated subsonic shells it's a pleasure to shoot without any sort of hearing protection. Using normal velocity shells the report are still muffled, but noticeably louder. The payload doesn't seem to matter much as long as the velocity is kept below 1000 fps. I tried some 1-1/4 ounce loads over 14 grains Vectan AS and couldn't tell the difference from factory loaded 3/4 ounce subsonic loads. The gun has 3" chambers and I will try work up some heavier loads to see how things progress.

Pics to follow later...

[wildflilghts]

Just what I am looking for.

12 Gauge
Case: Wichester AA compression formed (Should be the same in the new Winchester case)
Primer: Win209 or Fiocchi 616
Wad: WAA12 (1-1/8th wad)
Powder: ADI AS30N/Hodgdons Clays
Shot: 1-1/4oz Lead Shot

11 grains = 851 fps @ 5970 psi
12 grains = 910 fps @ 6915 psi
13 grains = 944 fps @ 8610 psi
14 grains = 985 fps @ 9840 psi



Did you source this data through ADI (Austrailia) ?

That is AussieBlackDucks load as listed on Shotgunworld. He developed that load and had it tested. I've used it and like it a lot. Nice even patterns.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=78722

[Cap'n Morgan]

As promised, a few pics of my shotgun suppressor project.

http://i.imgur.com/9XDbJmN.jpg
.
The "can" is a piece of 2" aluminum tubing with a "lid" threaded on each end.

The working principle should be quite evident: pressure is bled into the can from a row of holes in the barrels. I had hoped the pressure would drop enough to make ordinary 1400 fps target shell subsonic, but even though the holes start some 10" from the chamber the speed is already too high for the optimal sound reduction. With special tailored loads it's remarkably quiet.

http://i.imgur.com/r7y7XBl.jpg

After a bit of "Tactical" matte black paint:

http://i.imgur.com/mpbbLWU.jpg

[longbow]

I wish I could have a toy like that but Canadian gun laws do not allow suppressors.

Bah!

I'm jealous.

Do you find any issues with gas seals being damaged by the holes?

[megasupermagnum]

Yeah, that's a great thing you can do that in Denmark. It's hard enough in the USA. Tons of bureaucratic non-sense involving full background checks, pictures, finger prints, passports, etc. not to mention the $200 extortion and up to a year waiting time, that's if the local sheriff signs off on it (who can refuse for no other reason than he doesn't like you).

700x isn't the absolute best powder for significantly reduced loads, but this one shoots well. The federal wads work well with buckshot.

12ga 2 3/4" Federal gold medal
Federal 209A
16 gr 700x
Federal 12S3 wad
1 1/8 oz lead shot
fold crimp

1,100 fps
7,900 psi

[Cap'n Morgan]

The main reason suppressors became legal in Denmark was a combination of EU labor protection laws, lobbying from hunter and shooting organisations - and the top of the police force (which had fought against suppressors tooth and nail) running out of valid arguments for the ban.

Suppressors must still be registered, but it is just a formality and free of any charge. I probably could get my suppressor registered, but I'm afraid heads would exploded if the authorities were to classify the design so I'm just pretending being a little dense if anyone ask...

[Smoke4320]

Yeah, that's a great thing you can do that in Denmark. It's hard enough in the USA. Tons of bureaucratic non-sense involving full background checks, pictures, finger prints, passports, etc. not to mention the $200 extortion and up to a year waiting time, that's if the local sheriff signs off on it (who can refuse for no other reason than he doesn't like you).

700x isn't the absolute best powder for significantly reduced loads, but this one shoots well. The federal wads work well with buckshot.

12ga 2 3/4" Federal gold medal
Federal 209A
16 gr 700x
Federal 12S3 wad
1 1/8 oz lead shot
fold crimp

1,100 fps
7,900 psi

Actually since the new rules July 2016 the Sheriff NO LONGER signs off... and he can not block you unless you have criminal record.. All you do now is send them a copy of the app

[wildphilhickup]

After much experimenting, MY LOAD:

Case: Cheddite 12 Gauge, 2 3/4" 16mm - CLEAR hull
Primer: Cheddite 209
Wad: Alcan Air Wedge , 1/2" Feltan Blue Streak , .135 Nitro Card over shot, slug - ROLL CRIMP *Using a BPI Roll Crimper
Powder: Hodgdon CLAYS - 13.0 grains
Shot: Qty 12, #00 Buchshot or 1 1/4 oz Slug.

*Sounds like a 22 short.
* Nice patterns out to 25 yards with buckshot. Slugs are accurate out to 50 yards.
* Roll crimp gives a nice tight package. Feeds well in a pump shotgun.
* The finished overall length after roll crimp is 2 7/8"

[Hogtamer]

quiet is one thing but I would suspect very little penetration in anything.

[wildphilhickup]

The data says the load is 900+ fps. I would not stand in front of that, even at 100 yards.

When testing, a slug went through a 4x4 set back 25 yards.

[megasupermagnum]

If it's a soft lead slug, I would actually expect it to penetrate MORE than at a higher velocity.

[BAGTIC]

With shot the secret to penetration is to simply use larger shot. The lower the velocity the heavier the shot load can be without increasing recoil. for example 1 1/8 oz at 1250 fps is equal to 1 3/8 at 1022 fps. Larger shot retains velocity better so at other than very short range it quickly surpasses the lighter higher velocity loads. Years ago I switched to 1 3/8 oz #5 for pheasant hunting. Larger shot also normally gives better patterns. Ballistics at the muzzle means very little. More important is ballistics at normal target range.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Larger shot retains velocity better so at other than very short range it quickly surpasses the lighter higher velocity loads.

I have been running several different loads through "Shotgun Ballistic Calculator"

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/KPY-Shotshell-Ballistics-v20-select-CD-or-USB/productinfo/716KPYB/

The idea was to see how a subsonic load (900 fps)would compare to a typical 1300 fps hunting load if the shot size was increased to compensate for the slower speed.

A 1300 fps 1-1/8 ounce load of #4 shot has 150 pellets, and will penetrate deep enough til kill a goose at 43 yards.

A 900 fps 1-5/8 ounce load of #2 shot has 142 pellets and will penetrate the same at almost the same range - 40 yards - and the larger shot will probably do more damage - especially when hitting bone.

Both loads produce almost the same amount of recoil energy (the heavy load actually a little less)

Time of flight to 40 yards is 0.163 for the 900 fps load and 0.139 for the 1300 fps load. If our goose is moving at 40 mph it will require a 7.8 feet lead with the 1300 fps load, and a 9.8 feet lead for the subsonic load

The conclusion: The only obvious drawback in the subsonic load is the longer lead required - about 25% more at 40 yards.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK Captn, that thing is cool !!! definitely thinking outside the box.

Randy