Shot my first PC bullets today.

[Chris C]

I'm trying to work up a good practice load for my 9mm Hi-Power. Bought 500 147 gr coated Bayou Bullets and shot about 45 today. Barrel leaded badly. I thought the whole idea of PC bullets was no leading?!?!?! It took 4 LeadAway patches and some serious Flitz work to clean my barrel. What's up with that?

[Smoke4320]

undersized pc bullets will lead just like undersized greased bullets ..
so can we ask for some details to help figure out where the issue might be ?

did you slug your barrel ? if so what was the dia
from that what is the measured dia of the Bayou Bullets
what powder , grain and velocity are you shooting

these answers will help diagnose some of the issues

Thanks

[MyFlatline]

What Smoke said..not enough information. Bullet fit will always be the key. If you had that much leading, something went terribly wrong..

[Chris C]

The barrel slug measures .355" and the bullets I was loading measured .356"

I had three loads, shot 10 rounds each.

BE-86, 4.7 gr, avg fps was 1030
Titegroup, 2.5 gr, avg fps was 808.7
HS-6, 4.4 gr, avg fps was 868.5

I've got some .358" lead bullets (121 gr TC), half powder coated and half lubed that one of the generous members here on the forum sent to me to try. I'll do that next and should be able to get a good comparison. But if velocity is the problem, the lighter bullets are going to be traveling faster.

[Grmps]

Bayou Bullets sells Hi-Tek coated bullets 92/6/2 alloy with a Brinell hardness of 16-17, not PC (powder coat) I have never seen a commercial manufacturer that sells PC bullets.
Like smoke and MF we need to know the slugged size of the gun your shooting, the diameter of the bullets you used, type and amount of gunpowder your using to let us know how hard your pushing the bullet and how fast the burn rate is. Make/model of gun would be nice also.

[Chris C]

I assumed Hi-Tek was powder coating. My mistake. So do I need to lube these bullets?

Grmps, the post just prior to your has all the info you requested. Make and model of gun is in the first post.

[Smoke4320]

Bullets are too small for your barrel
Need to be .002 over min and in 9 mm many have found .003 to be even better

[Smoke4320]

PS I shoot .358 bullets out of all my 9mm guns with no leading at all

[Chris C]

So I guess you are suggesting either a .357" or .358" bullet, then?

[TXCOONDOG]

I agree with everyone else. I had the same issue with my .357, 9, .40 and 10mm. I tried .001" over diameter and still had minor leading at .002" and it stopped leading completely in some cases sized at .003" over diameter. It didn't matter if my alloy had a BHN of 10-22 at low to full power load velocities or powder choice.

Fotgot to mention: I bought some hard cast from Laser Cast (alloy is very hard) which leaded the worst due to fit, not being able to obturate at low velocities and/or lands being to abrupt (Stormlake 9 barrel).

Some of the issues were caused by a rough barrel (rifling), my 9 needed to be throated, polished and recrowned (off center) by DougGuy. In some cases the bullets (boolits) were being swagged in the reloading process (seating/crimping) and/or resized by my revolver (.357 mag) cylinder (varried from .356-.358") when fired.

On occasions I've read that GC's stop leading and improves accuracy which was not the case in my .357. The bullets (boolits) got resized and/or shaved (lead deposits) and gas cutting still occurred which caused leading and bad accuracy (4-6" groups at 25 yards).

Note: I learned that manafactures of auto pistols and revolvers don't come ready for use with cast boolits in mind. They are made to function with plated and jacketed bullets for factory ammo (the typical customer) or at least my conclusion.

Manafacturs diameters vary (slug to verify) in cylinders and barrels, even in the same makes and models. This is one of two reasons why I started casting my own and sizing to fit as one size does not fit all. The second is due to hard to find, expensive, and ammo/bullet shortages.

ACME Bullet Company sells coated bullets and majority of their bullets are sized .001" over SAMMI.

PS: Some cast manafactures will size or not size, etc at a customers request, and it never hurts to ask.

[Chris C]

I just loaded up some truncated cone bullets that measure .358". I'll try and shoot them on Monday and see how they work. I was given both lubed lead and powder coated, so I'll have a good comparison.

[bangerjim]

PS I shoot .358 bullets out of all my 9mm guns with no leading at all

I agree!!!!!!


I only cast and PC 358's for all my 9's today. No leading EVER! Try casting your own so you have total control of everything you are doing.

[Chris C]

Oh, I will bangerjim, but for right now I'm just buyin' or bummin' until I find the profile and weight bullet that seems to shoot the best in my chooter. I like the 147 gr bullets profile that I got from Bayou Bullets...........it's just not large enough I've been told. I also like the old standard Truncated cone bullet that it was originally loaded with by the Germans. (similar to the Lee 356402) I hear it's a pretty accurate bullet. I've got 50 loaded right now for chootin' on Monday.

[jimb16]

And one other note: Make sure your case expander is big enough that you don't size down the bullets as you load them. pull a couple and measure them to make certain that isn't the problem.

[Chris C]

Hmmmmmm! Never thought of that! The seated bullets definitely "show" on the outside of the brass.

[Chris C]

And one other note: Make sure your case expander is big enough that you don't size down the bullets as you load them. pull a couple and measure them to make certain that isn't the problem.

Just checked that and no change in bullet size. But thanks for giving me a "heads-up".

[Smoke4320]

get you some .358 powdercoated bullets expand the brass to .357 load and you should be good ..
Keep at it. When you find the solution you will love shooting pc'ed bullets

[NoAngel]

Do be sure the mouth is flared enough to NOT shave. It may not be readily apparent but skinning the coating when seating is bad juju. I've had a few I got a bad feeling about. Pulled the bullet and sure enough, coating was ruined because of my incompetence. Had I fired them, they would have leaded.

I shoot a .358 bullet and use an M die type expander (homemade) that expands deeper into the case. Flare the case enough so there's no chance of skinning the PC. Taper crimp only enough to close the bell, I don't want the crimp to dig into the bullet where it might compromise the PC as it exits the case. There's really no issue with too little neck tension on 9mm. Usually just the opposite.

[Chris C]

That's exactly what I did, Smoke4320................and they leaded like ****!!!!! I've never seen so much lead in a barrel. (at least not in any of my barrels!)

Started with an immaculately clean barrel. I shot at 4.6 gr BE-86 for an average of 1162 fps..........4.7 gr for 1077 fps..........and 4.8 gr for 1094 fps. I was shooting a 122 gr Lyman 356402 powder coated bullet. Wacky velocities.............not quite sure what's up with that.

[Chris C]

Do be sure the mouth is flared enough to NOT shave. It may not be readily apparent but skinning the coating when seating is bad juju. I've had a few I got a bad feeling about. Pulled the bullet and sure enough, coating was ruined because of my incompetence. Had I fired them, they would have leaded.

I shoot a .358 bullet and use an M die type expander (homemade) that expands deeper into the case. Flare the case enough so there's no chance of skinning the PC. Taper crimp only enough to close the bell, I don't want the crimp to dig into the bullet where it might compromise the PC as it exits the case. There's really no issue with too little neck tension on 9mm. Usually just the opposite.


I seated some bullets and pulled them.............no shearing of either the powder coating or the lead.

[Beetmagnet]

In all seriousness...this whole making the lead and PC work for my guns is just a puzzle to be solved, and a great part of the fun to me. It's almost like doing 3 dimensional logic puzzles.

[Chris C]

I'll have to agree with that, Beetmagnet. It definitely is a puzzle. Seems as though I seldom get these puzzles figured out. People are all the time telling me they've "found the perfect load for my such and such pistol/rifle and now it shoots 1/4" holes at a thousand yards". (exaggeration, of course) But that's never happened to me. It seems that all I do is throw a lot of money at the hobby and never actually "get" anywhere. Frustrating. I've only been shooting for 6 years now, but one would think I'd worked "something" out that was a solution.

[Smoke4320]

That's exactly what I did, Smoke4320................and they leaded like ****!!!!! I've never seen so much lead in a barrel. (at least not in any of my barrels!)

Started with an immaculately clean barrel. I shot at 4.6 gr BE-86 for an average of 1162 fps..........4.7 gr for 1077 fps..........and 4.8 gr for 1094 fps. I was shooting a 122 gr Lyman 356402 powder coated bullet. Wacky velocities.............not quite sure what's up with that.

the above is with .358 sized bullets out of a 9MM whose barrel is slugging .355 ? Just checking to be sure I understand correctly
Thanks

[MyFlatline]

Man, I'm confused. Have never leaded with an oversized bullet if the coating was done correctly. .02 has been the magic number.

.355 sounds tight for a .358 round,,,just sayin. All pistols go at .358, all rifles go .360.

Sure hope you get it sorted.

[Chris C]

the above is with .358 sized bullets out of a 9MM whose barrel is slugging .355 ? Just checking to be sure I understand correctly
Thanks

That would be a yes.

[Chris C]

I was told by a fellow on the Brian Enos forum that I'm pushing these coated bullets too fast. He says my 147 gr Bayou bullets should be in the 850/900 fps range. The Bayou bullets are .356". I only had 50 of the .358" bullets to test and they are all gone now. I'll try the Bayou Hi-Tek coated bullets at a lower velocity. I'll get it sorted, sooner or later.

[ichthyo]

I powder coat with HF red and have never had any leading issues. 2- 3 thousanths over bore diameter. Very happy with them.

[Chris C]

Well, I've 450 of these Hi-Tek coated, 147 gr bullets from Bayou....................and if I don't find a non-leading, satisfactory load for them by the time I run out of them I'll switch to inexpensive jacketed target bullets. At least with jacketed, I can pull the barrel after shooting, plug the muzzle with a cork and fill it with copper remover and let it set over night. They come clean as a whistle after that treatment.

[popper]

sounds like the normal sharp shoulder chamber problem. Oversized strips on the edge and undersized skids. IMHO PC is a little more forgiving than HiTek for this problem but the solution is to 'break' the sharp edge.

[TXCOONDOG]

I push .357mag sized at .358 with a BHN of 11 to 1300fps and 9mm to 1150 fps with no leading.

[TXCOONDOG]

Went to Bayou Bullets and the site says as you already stated that 9mm are sized to .356" and this for BHN

"Our bullets are cast from certified 92/6/2 alloy with a Brinell hardness of 16-17"

That is not what I consider soft.

[Chris C]

sounds like the normal sharp shoulder chamber problem. Oversized strips on the edge and undersized skids. IMHO PC is a little more forgiving than HiTek for this problem but the solution is to 'break' the sharp edge.

And just how would you do that, popper?

[Smoke4320]

Chris do you see exactly were the leading started in the barrel .. was it part way to the muzzle or starting at beginning of the rifling
Thanks

[Chris C]

Pretty much the entire length of the barrel was leaded, but heavier toward the chamber. I've got one of those "cheapy" Chinese bore scopes. Before cleaning next time, I'll check the barrel with it after shooting. Wish I had some Cerrosafe to get a good look at what popper was talking about.

I've a "ton" on my plate right now, so I'm going to set this project aside for the moment............too much other stuff to get done around the place. I'll might load a few rounds up today and probably wait until the 4th to shoot them. (I don't shoot on my range on weekends out of courtesy to my neighbors.) Everyone else will be popping fireworks on the 4th and I can shoot off some test rounds.

[Smoke4320]

sounds good .. don't get discouraged .. we will find the solution..
have a great 4th

[Chris C]

And the same back atchya! Independence Day is important to red-blooded "real" Americans.

[Rick459]

Chris C
to break that edge that popper is talking you can either rent a throating reamer and attempt it your self or have a gunsmith do it. or you can Fire Lap your barrel with bullets coated with a lapping compound. you can either coat the lead bullets yourself or buy them already coated HTH Midway sels a kit for coating bullets.
Rick
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/646612/wheeler-engineering-bore-lapping-kit

[Chris C]

I already have one of those fire-lapping kits. Just need to cast (or buy) some pure lead 9mm bullets. Didn't know for sure what he was talking about.

[Rick459]

what popper is talking about is the leading edge at the throat of the barrel. some times after they cut the chamber the reamer leaves the edges on the leading a little sharp. fire lapping will cure that. but if your problem is a short throat causing your problem then you will have to run a throating reamer down the barrel. trying the fire lapping first and see if that cures the problem. you already have the kit so it would be of the two the cheapest way to go. HTH
Rick

[Chris C]

Veral Smith says while firelapping "any" barrel will definitely improve it, he doesn't recommend it for weapons that will primarily be used with jacketed bullets because it changes the dimensions of the barrel and will play heck with the accuracy of the jacketed rounds. Since mine is a carry gun and will only be carried with jacketed bullets, I'm wondering if it would just be best to wear any sharp edges down with jacketed practice rounds. Any thoughts or comments on the subject would be appreciated.

[Rick459]

Chris C
i have to diagree with Veral Smith as i have fire lapped many barrels pistol and rifle and find that not be the case if done correctly. in your case just start with the finest grit in that kit which would be the 600 grit. or you could pick up some 1200 grit compound. if fire lapping worries you then another way to go is JB Bore paste.have you shot any jacketed bulets in that pistol yet. if not try that. you have many options here.HTH
Rick

[Chris C]

Rick, the pistol has never seen lead until the recent 100 rounds I've shot. But I have to admit it's been what some call a "safe queen", in that it's been in my bedside stand since I quit carrying it. Bought it new in 1986 and retired it in 1997............and (I'm embarrassed to say) it probably had no more than 50 rounds through it when it went into the bedside stand. Recently decided to carry it full time, so have started practicing with it. Buying commercial jacketed rounds is too expensive, so thought it would be smart to cast and load my own and practice with lubed lead bullets. Then I stumbled onto all this talk about coated bullets. Had never paid any attention to them before. I bought 500 Bayou Hi-Tek coated bullets and shot 50............only to have them lead terribly. Then a fellow here on the forum was kind enough to send me 50 bullets of a different style, but 35 were powder-coated while the other 15 were lubed lead. They, too, leaded badly. So here I am.

I've loaded up 50 of the 147 gr coated Bayou bullets with BE-86. 10 each of 3.5 gr, 3.6, 3.7, 3.8 and 3.9 to see if dropping the velocity will solve the problem. I'm going to try and shoot them tomorrow.

By the way, Rick, thanks for taking the time to talk with me on the phone.

[Chris C]

Okay, I shot the 50 rounds today. 10 shots per target and then pulled the barrel and cleaned in-between each target. All five loads produced more leading than I've ever seen in any pistol barrel I've ever shot. I've heard it said that "some" Hi-Powers just don't like lead. I'm beginning to believe mine is one of those. Best accuracy was with 3.6 gr.............1 1/4" group..........no big deal because that was just at 21 feet. So I've got around 400 of these bullets I'm just going to toss back into my smelting pile. I'll just order some FMJ from Precision Delta and be done with it.

[MyFlatline]

Dang Chris, was hoping you could get it figures out. Hope I don't run into one of those..

[Chris C]

I just soaked the barrel in Lead Out for an hour..........and still had to run 10 tight LeadAway patches down the barrel to get it "almost" clean..........followed that up with JB Bore paste and now it's clean. Pretty certain I'm stickin' with jacketed bullets in this barrel.

[Grmps]

Chris, Just curious, take one of the High-Tek coated bullets and put a piece of paper on the anvil of your vise or a hard metal surface and flatten it to 1l2 it's original size with a big hammer. if the bullet is coated properly you should get no flaking. If you get flaking then this might be a coating problem (even companies can make mistakes) If they pass the smash test and you live near someone that does hi-tek coating they could put 2 more coats on the bullets and bring them close to 358.
You are shooting starting loads for those powders, I'm wondering if they are not being pushed hard enough to obturate due to the hardness of the alloy.
I have good luck with the Lee 356-125 2R sized @ 357for all but my lama that slugs out fat and needs .3585
a properly sized hi-tek bullet usually cleans you barrel

[Chris C]

Thanks for the suggestion, Grmps. Did the test and it passed with flying colors. Have pushed these bullets from 783 fps to 1165 fps and they all lead heavily. I think jacketed bullets are in my future. All I'm after is a hassle-free bullet to load for practice. So far, at least, lead hasn't shown itself as a good candidate................kind of like HRC. :mrgreen:

[Chris C]

Okay, problem solved..............or averted, which ever! I ordered 500 115 gr FMJ bullets from RMR today. Not going to have to worry about this lead mess any more. Wasn't trying to start yet another journey into casting, lubing and sizing lead bullets................just wanted a hassle free practice round. I'll put these jacketed bullets over 5.65 gr WSF and be happy. (that is reported to duplicate my carry round in recoil) So all is well in my neighborhood. :)

[barnabus]

Bullets are too small for your barrel
Need to be .002 over min and in 9 mm many have found .003 to be even better

i shoot Smokes clear and size to 358 and now i dont hate the 9mm anymore!

[Chris C]

Ended up with 115 gr FMJ from RMR over 5.65 gr WSF.
This target was shot at 21 feet, rapid fire, 10 shots...........first shot was dead center of bullseye, or so my buddy claimed. Oh, and no lead in the rifling. :)

199620

Guess I'll forego PC and stick with FMJ.