First Test Patches

[Michael J. Spangler]

Hello all,

So after some suggestions on paper and a little jump back into "The Paper Jacket" I was able to find some Office Depot brand tracing paper and some 100% Rag Vellum

I picked up small paper cutter at Wal Mart last night and started to cut some patches.

The paper cutter has a built in ruler.
For the Lee 457-405 I figure that about a 1" patch would would well.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/MJSpangler/Casting/CDFE4E80-82CF-4448-B423-40966C8155E3_zpsuwuyyvzy.jpg (http://s286.photobucket.com/user/MJSpangler/media/Casting/CDFE4E80-82CF-4448-B423-40966C8155E3_zpsuwuyyvzy.jpg.html)

I dropped the see through cutter guard and it had just enough tension for me to alight the paper properly with the 1" mark.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/MJSpangler/Casting/86B64534-7626-4DE1-9BA0-86E654D4BDA8_zpsjxcu4r5h.jpg (http://s286.photobucket.com/user/MJSpangler/media/Casting/86B64534-7626-4DE1-9BA0-86E654D4BDA8_zpsjxcu4r5h.jpg.html)

The I trimmed the end to 30 degrees. I know some people are big on a specific patch angle but the more I read the more it seems it's less important.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/MJSpangler/Casting/40BDE02A-9B22-45D6-8ADC-EC6E2086C3B8_zps9bjbhxet.jpg (http://s286.photobucket.com/user/MJSpangler/media/Casting/40BDE02A-9B22-45D6-8ADC-EC6E2086C3B8_zps9bjbhxet.jpg.html)

After lots of playing around and trimming and re cutting new patches (I should have used some template material, started long and trimmed a tiny bit each time but I didn't have any suitable template material around)

I noticed that the 60 degree line and the vertical line just to the left of it were the perfect length to cut the patch I needed
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/MJSpangler/Casting/F9996E68-82F7-462B-9DAF-00D5D4531823_zpsxnz2r7nt.jpg (http://s286.photobucket.com/user/MJSpangler/media/Casting/F9996E68-82F7-462B-9DAF-00D5D4531823_zpsxnz2r7nt.jpg.html)

So I lined it up and cut
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/MJSpangler/Casting/B03498F3-5918-4C9D-A30D-8C3AE5C6F007_zps0f6akegp.jpg (http://s286.photobucket.com/user/MJSpangler/media/Casting/B03498F3-5918-4C9D-A30D-8C3AE5C6F007_zps0f6akegp.jpg.html)

I made a patching board from some PVC trim scraps I had in the cellar. 6"X9.5" with about a 3/16" Slot 1/8" deep. I chamfered the sharp inside edge just a touch with my pocket knife. Prior to that I got a couple of tears in the wet paper due to the sharp edge.

Here is the patch laid out and the bullet plopped on top
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/MJSpangler/Casting/B5384B19-D61E-4DAC-B54E-DDA5AD2D01A8_zpsgc9wcexx.jpg (http://s286.photobucket.com/user/MJSpangler/media/Casting/B5384B19-D61E-4DAC-B54E-DDA5AD2D01A8_zpsgc9wcexx.jpg.html)

A quick roll and it was wrapped on beautifully.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/MJSpangler/Casting/14E4E095-35DF-4411-A904-A862BF310A7C_zpsp3rinscx.jpg (http://s286.photobucket.com/user/MJSpangler/media/Casting/14E4E095-35DF-4411-A904-A862BF310A7C_zpsp3rinscx.jpg.html)

I opted to fold the paper on bottom. Again one of those things that everyone has a say on, I'm going to try it this way first and move on from there. I know some suggest to use hollow base bullets to tuck the patch into, or to leave the paper one and twist a tail to be trimmed off once dry. I might mess with the heavy lee hollow base mould at some point to try tucking the patch in.

I did notice that depending on weather I was using the Vellum or the tracing paper and wether I cut the paper the short or the long way the patch would be a tiny bit longer or shorter. That would be easy enough to adjust for depending on the paper I was using. With that guide line on the cutter I can easily adjust a tiny bit in either direction.

I plan on making a nice brass template once I settle on a material. I think the cutter is nice to make strips but I think I could get more consistency from batch to batch using a template to cut them to length.

I sized these bullets down to .453 (The sizer I had on hand)
The vellum was measuring a little over .0027"
The tracing paper was about .002" spot on
#1 wrapped in tracing paper is about .460" / .461"
#2 wrapped in vellum is about .465"

I'm going to continue with the tracing paper right now due to the fact that I have a proper sizer to work with that. I'm planning on grabbing a .451 sizer that should work decent with the vellum.
I have a .457" lee sizer that I've been meaning to ream out a bit to .460" which I'll try to get done this weekend. Next step is to roll up some bullets.

Should I pass these guys through the push through just to uniform them? Also I hear about some guys shooting them dry and some guys using a tough of lube on the patch. Thoughts?
I imagine the lube will help during the sizing process. I tried to push a couple through yesterday but they were dry patched and didn't want to stay on. I think the fat nose of the lee bullet was giving me fits and if I had patched them a little higher and got onto the ogive better it would have eased the transition into the die.
I should be able to borrow some heavier bullet moulds off of a buddy (he might even have a PP mould too!) So I can play with some bigger bullets better suited to my Sharps (45-70)


Thanks for all the advice guys! I can't wait to load some cartridges for my sharps! I just hope I don't get silly and ream the chamber to 45-120 so I can feel like Matthew Quigley

[yeahbub]

Michael, that's a very nice example. Well done. Good photos, too. Sizing them after patching isn't a bad idea, but you may want to see how they chamber and shoot first. It could well be a step you can skip, if they shoot satisfactorily as-is. There's no downside to sizing a patched boolit in my experience. I've heard some comments that it loosens the patch, but when I do it, the paper is a shiny white, hard coating tightly gripping the casting. I haven't noticed much difference between sizing the boolit to bore+ and patching to finished diameter, and sizing one already patched to final diameter. The patch didn't want to stay on? Are you rolling the wet patched boolit hard, with the edge of your hand on a soft surface, like a rubber place mat or some "drawer liner" when you apply the wet patch to tighten it onto the boolit? A textured surface is better than smooth, I've found. You'll know you're getting stretch when the paper starts sucking in at the lube grooves. Tighter is better. I commented about these things on your "paper question" thread so I won't waste space here. YMMV. It all depends on what it takes to get the results you're after.

Accuracy improves with a lubed patch and, yes, they ease the sizing chore. Dry patches are useful for polishing a barrel, but the friction will heat a barrel quickly, though some folks use them and like them.

Two questions:
1. How are you keeping the patches on? I glue the end of the patch down and fold the rest over the heel, which looks like what you're doing. That works, and saves paper over the twisted tail bit. BTW, you mention wanting a bit more on the ogive. Your patch width is good, you can just start the paper about .050 farther up the nose. You'll still have plenty to fold over the heel.

2. I notice the very neat seam you have has a right-hand twist. The Sharps rifles I'm familiar with have a right-hand twist. I mention this because of the possibility of a gas leak burning the patch on the trip down the bore if the seam and rifling align. Not very likely, but possible. It looks like you have a good bit of helix there which will probably be crossed by a land and seal it for sure, but most folks patch with the seam slanted opposite the rifling for insurance. Just a thought.

As for a better way to cut patches, I hope to borrow a camera and lay out the cardboard patch cutting fixture I came up with. No template, just strips of paper and a disposable razor knife. . . . Gotta get a camera.

[OverMax]

I found it easier to use a millimeter ruler. (more exact and easier to read.)

I see the pix above _your on the right track but. It appears your second wrap wasn't laid exactly on the seam or just short of the seam. By seam I mean: the first wraps start point.
(might be my eyesight is deceiving? But that's what I believe to be)

i.e. Exactly two wraps ending on the first wraps start point _ or as close as humanly possible without overlapping the papered Start point what-so-ever.

Tip: when I started to wrap a fresh new bullet and didn't know the exact length of patch needed. I inked the starting edge of the paper patch with a red or black indelible ink. Easier to see your Start point under a wrap of paper. Diagonal cut ends can be what ever desired or not at all. I make my (diagonal cuts having a slight 5-mm drop.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Michael, that's a very nice example. Well done. Good photos, too. Sizing them after patching isn't a bad idea, but you may want to see how they chamber and shoot first. It could well be a step you can skip, if they shoot satisfactorily as-is. There's no downside to sizing a patched boolit in my experience. I've heard some comments that it loosens the patch, but when I do it, the paper is a shiny white, hard coating tightly gripping the casting. I haven't noticed much difference between sizing the boolit to bore+ and patching to finished diameter, and sizing one already patched to final diameter. The patch didn't want to stay on? Are you rolling the wet patched boolit hard, with the edge of your hand on a soft surface, like a rubber place mat or some "drawer liner" when you apply the wet patch to tighten it onto the boolit? A textured surface is better than smooth, I've found. You'll know you're getting stretch when the paper starts sucking in at the lube grooves. Tighter is better. I commented about these things on your "paper question" thread so I won't waste space here. YMMV. It all depends on what it takes to get the results you're after.

Accuracy improves with a lubed patch and, yes, they ease the sizing chore. Dry patches are useful for polishing a barrel, but the friction will heat a barrel quickly, though some folks use them and like them.

Two questions:
1. How are you keeping the patches on? I glue the end of the patch down and fold the rest over the heel, which looks like what you're doing. That works, and saves paper over the twisted tail bit. BTW, you mention wanting a bit more on the ogive. Your patch width is good, you can just start the paper about .050 farther up the nose. You'll still have plenty to fold over the heel.

2. I notice the very neat seam you have has a right-hand twist. The Sharps rifles I'm familiar with have a right-hand twist. I mention this because of the possibility of a gas leak burning the patch on the trip down the bore if the seam and rifling align. Not very likely, but possible. It looks like you have a good bit of helix there which will probably be crossed by a land and seal it for sure, but most folks patch with the seam slanted opposite the rifling for insurance. Just a thought.

As for a better way to cut patches, I hope to borrow a camera and lay out the cardboard patch cutting fixture I came up with. No template, just strips of paper and a disposable razor knife. . . . Gotta get a camera.

I think my issues with the patch not holding up was due to trying to size down too far, not being far enough up the ogive or the fact that the paper was still damp.
When I wrapped I was applying a little pressure and once dried the patch does conform to the ogive and seems to have sunk into the lube grooves a bit.
Do you suggest rolling it on nice and even and then going back and applying the rolling pressure again on a soft surface just as a separate tightening step?
I'm not adding any type of glue to hold the patch on, I thought that wet patching didn't need any type of glue?
If i move my patch up a little higher and the folded over bottom still leaves the center of the bullet base exposed is that ok? I'm guessing that won't cause any real issues in lower pressure loads right?
I'll have to adjust my patch to make it left handed. I was going by the diagram in The Paper Jacket and was going for the twist the patch tighter with the rifling approach. It's easier to start to roll the patch the way I have the bottom tail facing in the pics, but I get your point about the gas cutting and with a patch that doesn't have a perfect start and finish wrap could have an issue. I guess I should look at the twist in the barrel and see if the patch angle is close to it to determine if there will be an issue. I guess firing a few shots could tell me the answer too.

Thanks again man!


I found it easier to use a millimeter ruler. (more exact and easier to read.)

I see the pix above _your on the right track but. It appears your second wrap wasn't laid exactly on the seam or just short of the seam. By seam I mean: the first wraps start point.
(might be my eyesight is deceiving? But that's what I believe to be)

i.e. Exactly two wraps ending on the first wraps start point _ or as close as humanly possible without overlapping the papered Start point what-so-ever.

Tip: when I started to wrap a fresh new bullet and didn't know the exact length of patch needed. I inked the starting edge of the paper patch with a red or black indelible ink. Easier to see your Start point under a wrap of paper. Diagonal cut ends can be what ever desired or not at all. I make my (diagonal cuts having a slight 5-mm drop.

That patch was just a touch short of the perfect wrap. Most of the test ones I made up (once i got the patch size right) were only .005" or a little more shy of being a perfect wrap. I figure the perfect wrap will come with experience and consistency in my operation.
I was reading that a wrap with a little gap is better than an overlap and shouldn't cause issues with accuracy as long ad the gap in minimal right?
Thanks!

[yeahbub]

It won't hurt a thing to leave the center of the heel exposed. The fire is only there for a millisecond or two and not nearly enough heat is absorbed to do any damage. A leak past the boolit, however, jets a lot of hot gas past a small area like a torch and causes much erosion.

No glue? That'll be why the patch is coming loose on sizing. I patch holding the boolit in my fingers, stretching as I wrap. The last .25" or so of the patch gets a dab of white glue and is smoothed down, the wet patched boolit is then rolled with force on drawer liner once or twice to tighten it. Additional tightening will occur on drying as it shrinks, tightening it further. Just make sure to glue paper to paper, not paper to lead.

To get a left-hand helix on the wrap, flip the patch top to bottom and wrap from the other end of your board. With the wrap you have, right-hand rifling will push the patch end to the right which is to unwrap it. No matter. On firing, the boolit will obturate against the patch and barrel wall. On exit, the gasses will blast past the boolit, shredding the patch, leaving the boolit free to fly. The patch's mission is accomplished.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I'll try the glue next time.
I was going to pick up a cigarette roller to try that too.

So in that pic of the wrapped bullet the bottom side of the patch is the end of the patch... wouldn't that be wrapped in the direction to tighten when going down a right hand twist?

The again I hear that either way can be made to work right?

[OverMax]

{005 thousands short of seam is very near a perfect wrap.}
I don't think it makes a different in a papers shredding at muzzle which way the paper is applied clockwise or counterclockwise. Which ever direction is the easiest for you to roll tight ~is OK. Just so you know I apply my patches dampened wet with saliva. And they do have a twisted tail which is clipped after the patches overnight drying or just before their resizing (if resizing is needed?)_It appears upon twisting a spit-wet-tail-in the same direction of the patch's laying. Such technique seem to tighten the entire patch to its lead surface and too most Resizer Push Rods will flatten its patches remaining (thoroughly dried) clipped tail to the base. No harm to a bullets accuracy does a twisted flattened tail create or non-flattened tail stub create.

Tip: When I apply my dampened patches and roll them on with my fingers. I kind'a roll the up edge facing the bullets tip ever so slightly off center downward from its prior wraps edge. So to speak creating a tapered ever so slightly downward appearance. Doing so I think creates a wedging effect of my patchs meeting its rifling.

Not a typical 2-wrapped blunt edge of paper that abruptly meets its rifling. (Although the latter way is the customary way most Patch'er gents do follow.)

[Michael J. Spangler]

So I was reading over some notes I had from last summer when I was reading "The Paper Jacket" for the first time and reading as much as I could fine online.
I had a note about guns that have no throat like a Marlin being able to be patched so the front of patch is sitting in the crimp groove, that way when it dries the front of the patch is almost "crimped" into the groove when it shrinks. I guess this would allow for the use of a patch in a rifle with no throat. What do you guys think?

[beltfed]

May I respectfully suggest that you might do a better job of fluxing and skimming your lead pot when casting.
Perhaps a slightly higher casting temp and maybe another 1/2 percent of tin , too
beltfed/arnie

[Michael J. Spangler]

May I respectfully suggest that you might do a better job of fluxing and skimming your lead pot when casting.
Perhaps a slightly higher casting temp and maybe another 1/2 percent of tin , too
beltfed/arnie

Thank you for noticing, I am always up for respectful constructive criticism. Some of them were not the best. I was casting with a lee bottom pour at first then switched over to a ladle and results were very very good.
Also these were tumbled for the hi-tek coating which tends to soften the sharp lines and make them look like they had less than respectable fill out.

If all goes well I won't be using hi-tek on my 45/70 loads once this paper thing is all sorted out.

What do you guys like for lube? I had a tube of TC Bore Butter close by when messing with sizing and it seemed to do the job well. I don't know if there are any rules of what to look for or stay away from, or whatever you have on hand is good enough?

[303Guy]

For what it is worth, I now patch without a tail. Or I did when I last patched and will do so again soon. For me the only thing was to protect the boolit base from powder kernel peening. Harder allow and/or lower pressure solved that problem.

[yeahbub]

I wouldn't worry about the direction of he wrap. The object is to wrap so the seam is crossed by a land to prevent the possibility of leakage scorching or burning the patch. From the look of that boolit in the photo, the seam covers about 120 degrees of the boolits circumference and six land rifling has only 60 degrees between lands, so the seam will be crossed by at least one land, if not two. Good enough. There's no magic in one way or the other. It's just easier to guarantee lands across the seam if the seam is opposite the rifling.

You're correct that some rifles don't have much of a throat. For this condition, it's good to have the patch start high enough on the ogive to ensure there's no lead to steel contact. Since you're going with a groove+ diameter boolit, you'll have to experiment with OAL to find the maximum length which will reliably chamber.

What lube is good? Are you using black or smokeless? There are lubes that work with either, but most lubes intended for smokeless are problematic when used with black. I've used Bore Butter with PP boolits in a muzzleloader and it served well, but for ammo that must endure handling, something more durable would stay put longer. One of my go-to lubes for several chores is Emmert's (on the boolit lube forum where cubic tons of info on the subject can be found), also known as 541, 5 parts bees wax, 4 parts vegetable shortening, 1 part canola oil, melted together in a double boiler to keep it from getting unnecessarily hot. Crayon some of that on the patch and you'll be well served at Sharps velocities using black or smokeless. Black may well need a card wad and lube cookie under the boolit so you'll have plenty for the added fouling with black. The BPCR folks can fill you in very knowledgeably about what success requires with black. With smokeless, just what the patch will hold in the paper's texture should be enough. If you're going smokeless, another option is tumble-lubing them in 4 parts Lee Liquid Alox and 1 part Meguiar's liquid carnauba wax (no cleaners, abrasives or polymers, just carnauba) from your local Auto Zone or similar. The carnauba will keep the LLA from being so objectionably tacky. It'll smell better too. Once dry, it's pretty tenacious and will endure handling as well as water-proofing the patches. Don't use LLA with BP. The tar-like deposits are a chore to remove.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I wouldn't worry about the direction of he wrap. The object is to wrap so the seam is crossed by a land to prevent the possibility of leakage scorching or burning the patch. From the look of that boolit in the photo, the seam covers about 120 degrees of the boolits circumference and six land rifling has only 60 degrees between lands, so the seam will be crossed by at least one land, if not two. Good enough. There's no magic in one way or the other. It's just easier to guarantee lands across the seam if the seam is opposite the rifling.

You're correct that some rifles don't have much of a throat. For this condition, it's good to have the patch start high enough on the ogive to ensure there's no lead to steel contact. Since you're going with a groove+ diameter boolit, you'll have to experiment with OAL to find the maximum length which will reliably chamber.

What lube is good? Are you using black or smokeless? There are lubes that work with either, but most lubes intended for smokeless are problematic when used with black. I've used Bore Butter with PP boolits in a muzzleloader and it served well, but for ammo that must endure handling, something more durable would stay put longer. One of my go-to lubes for several chores is Emmert's (on the boolit lube forum where cubic tons of info on the subject can be found), also known as 541, 5 parts bees wax, 4 parts vegetable shortening, 1 part canola oil, melted together in a double boiler to keep it from getting unnecessarily hot. Crayon some of that on the patch and you'll be well served at Sharps velocities using black or smokeless. Black may well need a card wad and lube cookie under the boolit so you'll have plenty for the added fouling with black. The BPCR folks can fill you in very knowledegably about what success equires with black. With smokeless, just what the patch will hold in the paper's texture should be enough. If your going smokeless, another option is tumble-lubing them in 4 parts Lee Liquid Alox and 1 part Meguiar's liquid carnauba wax (no cleaners, abrasives or polymers, just carnauba) from your local Auto Zone or similar. The carnauba will keep the LLA from being so objectionably tacky. It'll smell better too. Once dry, it's pretty tenacious and will endure handling as well as water-proofing the patches. Don't use LLA with BP. The tar-like deposits are a chore to remove.


Thank you!

I'm messing around with patching some Lyman 457132 bullets that a buddy gave me. Wrapped up tot he ogive they are a little tight in my sharps. Am I right to think that this style bullet with a step down for a bore ride section could be patched shorter and still do the job? The undersized bore ride section should allow room for the patch to shrink on just as if it were wrapped up to the ogive right? The smaller diameter nose acting just like the taper of the ogive?

Thanks again!

[Michael J. Spangler]

Alright so once dried the bullets patched with the tracing paper are perfect size. Barely any resistance going through the .460" lee sizer.

I am having a little issue seating them though. I have had the paper tear and the patch bunch up while seating. I figure that this is due to a couple things.
Maybe I need a little more lube on the patch?
Maybe I'm not wrapping the patches tight enough to give them a decent hold?
Maybe because I'm test wrapping these with bullets that are already lubed that they're not gripping the bullet well and are sliding right up, bunching and tearing?
Maybe I need to have a slightly oversize neck expander?
Maybe because i cut the patches with the grain running the long way that the grain is running perpendicular to the axis of the bullet so seating is putting stress in the weakest direction of the paper and tearing it?

I'm guessing the pre lubed bullets being the biggest issue, and maybe too much neck tension on the brass.
I'm going to try to seat some without sizing the cases and see how that works. They're all going through a sharps so it won't be too bad.

The ones I added a little more lube to and took my time gently seating worked out fine it appears. I patched them shorter without getting onto the ogive. They both seem to chamber fine in the sharps now.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/MJSpangler/Casting/30F6E9A2-D7D7-4F43-96F6-E1CA1C1FBD17_zpslfsxtgpr.jpg (http://s286.photobucket.com/user/MJSpangler/media/Casting/30F6E9A2-D7D7-4F43-96F6-E1CA1C1FBD17_zpslfsxtgpr.jpg.html)

How am I making out?

[yeahbub]

Patching Boolits which have lube on them will keep the patch from gripping tightly which is against the effect you want, a dry grip on the boolit which includes the mechanical lock of intruding into the empty lube grooves. I soak the lubed boolits in mineral spirits or acetone to remove the lube before patching, but, hey, if you can get them seated, they might be worth a try. Surely people have done it before. When I prep cases for seating PPB, I make sure any wire edge on the inside lip of the case is removed with a chamfer tool and the edge of the brass is radiused by spinning them in a drill with some medium steel wool pressed against the case mouth. The cases are then belled enough to be able to get the PPB heel wedged into the case mouth finger tight and then seating in the press. I don't like to work my cases more than necessary, so I'm sparing with this, but it has to be enough to reliably get each one started without snagging the patch on the case mouth. Using unsized cases is certainly an option, but you'll be patching the boolits to fit the case rather than the throat. Your chamber may be such that a PPB fitted to the throat is also a friction fit in a fired case. Some chambers are large, and a throat-sized PPB will fall down in a fired case and be rattling loose. The difference in size may make the patched-to-fired-case diameter too big for the throat. Then your only option is to size the case enough to grip the throat-sized boolit snugly.

The bore-ride nose is the correct diameter for a PP boolit on it's own, so yes, patching the nose means it's now groove diameter and the boolit will have to be seated deeper in the case for it to chamber. Leaving it unpatched is workable IF the alloy is stiff enough to maintain it's diameter and not obturate enough to lead the bore in front of the patch and tear it up. Some folks do this successfully, but its a matter of alloy hardness being matched to how hard they're pushing them. If you're tumble lubing, the bare noses will be coated with lube and that'll help, but only shooting will tell the tale.

Spiffy! Those two look like they're ready to be tried.

[303Guy]

Looking good!

I roll my patched boolits on my lube pad with STP smoke stopper on it and seat. The STP soaks away and leaves the paper gripping the neck pretty well. Makes for easy tight seating. It does work best with printer paper but that isn't always the best paper to use. It is compressible which makes for easy seating though.

[OverMax]

Maybe because I'm test wrapping these with bullets that are already lubed that they're not gripping the bullet well and are sliding right up, bunching and tearing? Yup. Sounds about right to me.

From my experience. All saturating bullet lubes I've tried inhibit a patches timely shredding. You should try both completely dry and lightly lubed patched bullets and see which of the two patching you prefer.

I use to lube my patches. Until I realized there was little reason too. I only shoot two or three rounds at a time there after my barrel cools while I write & keep notes. {its a shooting procedure I've practiced for many years.} Those who enjoy shooting 7-9 consecutive rounds in a row as fast as they can center their rifles sights on bullseye. Such shooting requires a bullet lube sparing applied. Friction and smokeless power use undoubtedly have increased barrel temps substantially which promotes chamber erosion. Continuous use of alox bullet lubes help to reduce the chance of erosion.

The paper patching technique when popular years ago. If given some thought.
Lubbing wasn't done to enhance a bullets orbitration for better accuracy. It was likely done to keep Black Powder fouling soft.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Looking good!

I roll my patched boolits on my lube pad with STP smoke stopper on it and seat. The STP soaks away and leaves the paper gripping the neck pretty well. Makes for easy tight seating. It does work best with printer paper but that isn't always the best paper to use. It is compressible which makes for easy seating though.
Cool idea.



Yup. Sounds about right to me.

From my experience. All saturating bullet lubes I've tried inhibit a patches timely shredding. You should try both completely dry and lightly lubed patched bullets and see which of the two patching you prefer.

I use to lube my patches. Until I realized there was little reason too. I only shoot two or three rounds at a time there after my barrel cools while I write & keep notes. {its a shooting procedure I've practiced for many years.} Those who enjoy shooting 7-9 consecutive rounds in a row as fast as they can center their rifles sights on bullseye. Such shooting requires a bullet lube sparing applied. Friction and smokeless power use undoubtedly have increased barrel temps substantially which promotes chamber erosion. Continuous use of alox bullet lubes help to reduce the chance of erosion.

The paper patching technique when popular years ago. If given some thought.
Lubbing wasn't done to enhance a bullets orbitration for better accuracy. It was likely done to keep Black Powder fouling soft.

What types of lube are you using?
Also what type of heat are we talking about compared to jacketed? I know black powder heats a barrel up super fast but where does the paper land? Somewhere in between cast and jacketed? Same as jacketed? More?

I'm going to pick up a buddies bullet mould sometime this week so I can cast some new bullets and make some test loads.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Patching Boolits which have lube on them will keep the patch from gripping tightly which is against the effect you want, a dry grip on the boolit which includes the mechanical lock of intruding into the empty lube grooves. I soak the lubed boolits in mineral spirits or acetone to remove the lube before patching, but, hey, if you can get them seated, they might be worth a try. Surely people have done it before. When I prep cases for seating PP, I make sure any wire edge on the inside lip of the case is removed with a chamfer tool and the edge of the brass is radiused by spinning them with some medium steel wool pressed against the case mouth. The cases are then belled enough to be able to get the PPB heel wedged into the case mouth finger tight and then seating in the press. I don't like to work my cases more than necessary, so I'm sparing with this, but it has to be enough to reliably get each one started without snagging the patch on the case mouth. Using unsized cases is certainly an option, but you'll be patching the boolits to fit the case rather than the throat. Your chamber may be such that a PPB fitted to the throat is also a friction fit in a fired case. Some chambers are large, and a throat-sized PPB will fall down in a fired case and be rattling loose. The difference in size may make the patched-to-fired-case diameter too big for the throat. Then your only option is to size the case enough to grip the throat-sized boolit snugly.

The bore-ride nose is the correct diameter for a PP boolit on it's own, so yes, patching the nose means it's now groove diameter and the boolit will have to be seated deeper in the case for it to chamber. Leaving it unpatched is workable IF the alloy is stiff enough to maintain it's diameter and not obturate enough to lead the bore in front of the patch and tear it up. Some folks do this successfully, but its a matter of alloy hardness being matched to how hard they're pushing them. If you're tumble lubing, the bare noses will be coated with lube and that'll help, but only shooting will tell the tale.

Spiffy! Those two look like they're ready to be tried.


Ok some cool info here.
With the bore ride nose being about .445" it's patched up to about .455" I did patch most of the way up that section but not as far as the ogive.
So are you saying that if that the exposed bore ride nose is soft enough to bump up to groove that I might have an issues with leading proceeding the patch which can tear up the patch?

I guess if I have leading with these relatively soft bullets and some nose unwrapped then I can cast some harder bullets to see if it gets rid of the issue. If the issue is gone at that point it's probably from he hard alloy not being able to obturate.

I've seen some swaged bullets with almost a SWC type shoulder and a reduced diameter shorter nose. I'm guessing it's to solve the issue I'm running into now.

[OverMax]

What types of lube are you using? I don't use a lube. My patched bullets are void of any lube. When I tried to use a lube it was RCBS hollow stick (rifle) cast bullet lube or White Label liquid X-lox 45-45-10.


Also what type of heat are we talking about compared to jacketed? The copper plating on a jacketed bullet not only absorbed heat it also has lubricating quality's. Paper on a patched bullet simple creates friction and heat down the bore which is absorbed by the barrels metal. As to which barrel develops the higher temp. I'm pretty sure a Patch shooting barrel gets hotter--quicker than a barrel shooting the same amount of jacketed cartridges heats.

where does the paper land?. The paper on a patch bullet shreds near muzzle end I'm supposing? Patch paper is simply turned into a confetti looking material. The longer a patch paper is adhered to its projectile beyond muzzle end the less accuracy its shooter will witness.

[yeahbub]

So are you saying that if that the exposed bore ride nose is soft enough to bump up to groove that I might have an issues with leading proceeding the patch which can tear up the patch? Correct. The bore-ride nose on some designs (.30 cal, 6.5mm, etc.) actually have lube grooves to prevent the nose from leading the lands - or grooves for that matter, if they obturate that much. The softer the alloy, the shorter the bore-ride nose length you can leave bare, because the longer the unsupported column of lead, the more it will obturate, mostly at it's base. The lands will guide the nose, but the grooves offer no structural support.


I guess if I have leading with these relatively soft bullets and some nose unwrapped then I can cast some harder bullets to see if it gets rid of the issue. If the issue is gone at that point it's probably from he hard alloy not being able to obturate. Harder boolits OR shorter exposed nose length. Of course, this means seating them correspondingly deeper in the case. I have seen people generously anoint the nose with some smeareable soft lube and they seemed to meet with success, but it was also a one-at-a-time range exercise. Can't imagine slipping those in a bandolier and heading for the field.


I've seen some swaged bullets with almost a SWC type shoulder and a reduced diameter shorter nose. I'm guessing it's to solve the issue I'm running into now. That could be - there's a bozillion different mold designs out there. It makes sense to have a PP mold that also has a bore-ride nose intended to be patched to bore diameter, say, .441 or .442 for a .450 bore. Another option is to have a two-diameter Lyman type "in-out" sizing die cut with your particular bore dia. and throat dia. so a patched boolit could be inserted and brought to the needed finished diameters. First, though, do some shooting to find what works before investing in a custom tool.

I don't recall whether you said you were using smokeless or black. The .45-70 is a voluminous case and I suspect that satisfactory velocities with smokeless could be achieved even with the boolit patched halfway up the ogive and just seated deeper in the case. That's conjecture on my part - the veteran Sharps shooters could chime in here and correct me if I'm on thin ice regarding pressures with that idea. If you're using black, you'll need the case volume for propellant, and a bore-ride design with an appropriately patched nose becomes desirable.

I'm with OverMax on the jacketed vs. patched friction question. Copper readily transmits heat which may reduce heat transfer to the steel. Paper is a fair insulator as well as being not very slippery. The boolit obturates outward against the patch on firing (or is squeezed down by the throat, or both) and the texture of the paper is pressed into the lead while the paper presses with equal pressure against the barrel steel which remains smooth, hence, it's easier for the patch to stay with the boolit. The same thing can be observed when unwrapping a patched boolit which was patched at full diameter and then sized.

The patch will be shed immediately on exit from the muzzle and torn to a puff of confetti. Sometimes I find tattered strips a few feet out front. OverMax is quite right with saying the longer the patch stays on, the less accurate they'll be.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Correct. The bore-ride nose on some designs (.30 cal, 6.5mm, etc.) actually have lube grooves to prevent the nose from leading the lands - or grooves for that matter, if they obturate that much. The softer the alloy, the shorter the bore-ride nose length you can leave bare, because the longer the unsupported column of lead, the more it will obturate, mostly at it's base. The lands will guide the nose, but the grooves offer no structural support.

Harder boolits OR shorter exposed nose length. Of course, this means seating them correspondingly deeper in the case. I have seen people generously anoint the nose with some smeareable soft lube and they seemed to meet with success, but it was also a one-at-a-time range exercise. Can't imagine slipping those in a bandolier and heading for the field.

That could be - there's a bozillion different mold designs out there. It makes sense to have a PP mold that also has a bore-ride nose intended to be patched to bore diameter, say, .441 or .442 for a .450 bore. Another option is to have a two-diameter Lyman type "in-out" sizing die cut with your particular bore dia. and throat dia. so a patched boolit could be inserted and brought to the needed finished diameters. First, though, do some shooting to find what works before investing in a custom tool.

I don't recall whether you said you were using smokeless or black. The .45-70 is a voluminous case and I suspect that satisfactory velocities with smokeless could be achieved even with the boolit patched halfway up the ogive and just seated deeper in the case. That's conjecture on my part - the veteran Sharps shooters could chime in here and correct me if I'm on thin ice regarding pressures with that idea. If you're using black, you'll need the case volume for propellant, and a bore-ride design with an appropriately patched nose becomes desirable.

I'm with OverMax on the jacketed vs. patched friction question. Copper readily transmits heat which may reduce heat transfer to the steel. Paper is a fair insulator as well as being not very slippery. The boolit obturates outward against the patch on firing (or is squeezed down by the throat, or both) and the texture of the paper is pressed into the lead while the paper presses with equal pressure against the barrel steel which remains smooth, hence, it's easier for the patch to stay with the boolit. The same thing can be observed when unwrapping a patched boolit which was patched at full diameter and then sized.

The patch will be shed immediately on exit from the muzzle and torn to a puff of confetti. Sometimes I find tattered strips a few feet out front. OverMax is quite right with saying the longer the patch stays on, the less accurate they'll be.


Awesome.
I'm using smokeless so I'm guesssing I will have a little more room to play with powders but I am hoping to stick to the heavy end of the spectrum for bullets so that might limit me a little.
I'm going to see how these Lyman designs work and then I can decide on either having the chamber reamed or maybe have a custom mould with a .440 bore ride nose that will work well with my chamber.
All of this after some testing and if need be a chamber cast
Thanks again guys.

[yeahbub]

A chamber cast will make plain details only a boroscope will make visible. Somewhere I saw some plastic material to make chamber casts which pours in thick and takes an hour or two to set. It makes very detailed castings, but I can't remember the name of it. The model-makers at work used it. Well, somebody will know.

Smokeless will afford you greater flexibility in coming up with loadings that do what you need. It would be good to solicit the assistance of the .45-70 veterans of this game, they'll have a good bit of info. Got 3031? Or AA5744? They're a good place to start.

I'd exhaust the possibilities with the numerous available options before I'd consider changing the chamber/throat. You needn't ask how I know that. Put some on paper and keep us posted.

[Michael J. Spangler]

First range trip.
This is all of the patch material I could fine from 9 rounds I shot tonight. The newer patches were much cleaner. The first few were dark. Seems it cleaned up the bore a bit.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/MJSpangler/Casting/E8625EC9-BCAA-48A0-8695-682479317472_zpsbymympno.jpg (http://s286.photobucket.com/user/MJSpangler/media/Casting/E8625EC9-BCAA-48A0-8695-682479317472_zpsbymympno.jpg.html)

Top left target was shot with 405 Lee. 50/50 COWW/Pure coated with hi-tek. 32 grains of H4198
Top right target was the same bullet patched
Bottom right was my buddy shooting the patched load.
Targets are about 8.5"X11" sheet of paper.
I was losing light so the tang sight wasn't easy to see, and I was resting the front on a range bag and the rear on a folded padded rifle case (excuses for the fact that I'm not the best shot anyway) but this tells me that it's shooting very much like the coated loads. I think I can actually do some load development with some better bullets and make this paper patch thing work for me. Barrel was clean and shiny when I was done.
My buddy shot the last group about 45 minutes after I shot the first one... he was late to the range so he had even less light.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/MJSpangler/Casting/033A58A3-AE83-4F2C-B2A4-0F63C189AC0E_zpsdxt8xtuv.jpg (http://s286.photobucket.com/user/MJSpangler/media/Casting/033A58A3-AE83-4F2C-B2A4-0F63C189AC0E_zpsdxt8xtuv.jpg.html)

I'm happy with the results proving my process is ok so far. These were coated so there would be no lead even without the patch but I'm thinking that they would be fine in bare lead that was patched.
The patched held on the bullet beautifully during sizing and seating with no ripping. The amount of shrink into the lube grooves was visible.


I also realized that when I cut my patches if they're just a touch longer than the last batch I cut that I can roll with a little less drag and they wrap a tiny bit shorter and the same goes for a batch just a tiny bit shorter I can keep the bullet in the groove on the patch board and press down while rolling it in the groove pinched between thumb and forefinger to give a little tighter wrap and stretch the patch bit more.

Someone on the forum suggested cutting strips and then stapling the end together to keep everything straight while cutting patches to length and that helped a ton too.

Thanks again guys! I'll keep updating and asking questions as I go. I'm about halfway through "The Paper Jacket" for the second time now.

[yeahbub]

I notice your patched group is appreciably "rounder" Than the coated group. Both show promise, seems to me. What was the distance? How did you lube the patch and what with? The recovered patch in the photo shows external and internal layers. Apparently the external layer is being worn through slightly in a coupe of places, but the inner wrap is intact. This should improve as the patches smooth the finish in the bore. I patched for a .375 Win which showed similar characteristics due to reamer marks on the lands from the barrel maker. Lapped it - slick as glass afterwards. No more wearing through the patch.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I'm going to say the group was due to my shooting skills all around. Next time I'm going to bring a rest and go in full daylight to take some variables out of it.
All shots at 50 yards.
Patch was lubed with a tiny smear of bore butter (only lube I had handy that was thin enough to apply easily) rubbed on with my fingers then sent through the sizing die which barely kissed the paper.
I'm not sure if that is internal and external patches or not. The darker pieces of patch were the ones I found after shooting about 5 rounds. The after the rest were shot I went back searching and all of the patch material I could find was much lighter. They all appear to be cut through about the same, only the lube groove area not being cut. I was thinking the patch material was cleaning the bore and the second batch of shots they just came out much cleaner.
I'll have to take some shots over a cleaner patch of range next time. This spot towards the far left side was full pf patchy grass so it was hard to find patches.
What's the difference between wearing through and cutting through a patch? Cutting is done on the sharp edge of the lands and wearing is just the top of the lands being rough and abrading its way through the sides of the patch?

[yeahbub]

Your surmise is correct, patches exhibiting cutting will be along the lands, though not all barrels do this. New barrels with sharp edges are more prone to it, and muzzleloader barrels with deep rifling which stretches the patch on obturating to the bottoms of the grooves. (Sometimes, hard alloys like linotype/monotype can be hard enough to clip through the paper on the forward edge of the driving band when being sized in a die or in the throat.) As the rifling is polished with use, this tends to diminish. It's also affected by the thickness/toughness of the paper used. I haven't noticed it to affect accuracy noticeably in my experience. Wearing through occurs in places where the patch is pinched between boolit and barrel at the driving bands. Old fouling, a frosty, faintly rusty or slightly pitted bore all present opportunities for wear on the patch, though generally it won't go through .005 of patch. Abused/neglected barrels with pronounced roughness can often be recovered enough to use PPBs very well with a regimen of cleaning and pressure lapping to clear out the trash and smooth the edges of pitting and produce a bore of consistent surface from end to end. Variations in bore condition make accuracy difficult. Metallic deposits in the bore change from shot to shot, so it isn't quite the same barrel two shots in a row. The genius of PP is that such deposits are eliminated from the equation and, aside from powder residue, the bore remains consistent. Many an old boomstick has been hauled out of a closet after decades of being ignored, and some knowledgeable shooter has effectively cleaned it for maybe the first time since it was sold, exposing galvanic corrosion under the old copper or lead deposits. With attention to detail, these can be effectively reclaimed and do very well.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I thought we anted the rifling to cut the patch?
I'm halfway through The Paper Jacket so as i'm actually getting into patching and learning I'm still re reading the basics that I haven't read in over a year.
Thanks again!
Can't wait to cast some more bullets this weekend. The I can wrap them up and load them.

[yeahbub]

I've read that too. I've not been able to find much evidence of strips from the rifles I patch for, but I've never noticed it made a difference. Strips or confetti, it's off the boolit. They're accurate, which is what I care about. Some of the old barrels cut for PP have rifling .002 deep, less than the thickness of one layer of most of the papers used. Can't cut strips if it can't get through the paper.

By the way, did you change the format of your photos? Suddenly I can't see any of them, just some photobucket link which I can't open. My computer just updated - were they all photobucket links? I could see them fine yesterday. Not sure what changeded here. . . .

[Michael J. Spangler]

Hmmm makes sense.
Yeah photobucket stopped allowing people to post pictures on forums without paying big subsrictiom fees. I had to switch the website I use. I'll have to repost the pics later

[yeahbub]

I see. Have you tried just loading them directly using "insert image"?

[Michael J. Spangler]

Photobucket doesn't allow that function unless you pay $400 a year or something crazy now.
IMGUR is my new preferred photo hosting website.

http://i.imgur.com/A0eTU4al.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TjOC9RVl.jpg

Cast some of these yesterday. The mold seems a little out of whack but made a consistent bullet. Couple of them patched just to see how they look. I rolled patches at 3 different length and the two longer ones were a little tight but would chamber. The one that was about 3/8" past the case mouth chambered perfectly.
I switched my patching technique around a little bit. I was dipping my patches in water and they rolled on and dried nice, but I tried just a little wipe of water on the patch and I noted that less water made it stick to the patching board more, which gave more resistance (drag because it stuck to the board) while rolling and made the patch tighter.
I learn something new every time I sit at the bench.

I'm thinking of making 2 dovetail or T type slots in my patching board running from left to right parallel to the bullet groove. I figure I can set up a perpendicular board on the T slots that can be adjusted left and right and tightened down.
I align my patch to the outer edge of the board and use the sliding fence to butt the nose of the bullet against. That should keep every patch at the same location.
Does that draw a good mental picture?
That should eliminate one more variable, and the damp paper (probably going to switch to a sponge to dampen) should eliminate the variable wrap length due to stretch.

These patched seemed to dry nicely by the morning and they seemed to wrap well onto the ogive, I think I'm going to stick with the patches cut with the fiber, they shrink on the ogive without any pleating and if I stick with the larger bore ride bullets that I want to lean towards then I don't really need to wrap (and can't due to the short throat) to the ogive anyway.
Am I thinking right? The patches hold on tight until it's time to fall off, but are there any other benefits to a tighter patch (cut against the grain for more stretch and shrink) that I'm overlooking?

Thanks again!
Happy Independence Day!

[Michael J. Spangler]

http://i.imgur.com/qseTCVhm.jpg

[yeahbub]

It's a miracle!! I CAN SEE! . . . Okay, that's waaaaay better. I don't have any such photo posting arrangement. I just post them directly to the Cast Boolits page from my PC. That way they'll be on the site for as long as the website exists. I hope your Fourth was good as well.

Those three PPB's look great. Playing with different degrees of wetness on the patch can facilitate different amounts of stretch, strength, etc. Most papers have "sizing" and coatings on them for stability and taking ink properly or whatever it's intended for. If the paper is made just a little wet, the sizing will affect how it acts. Soaking it generally dissolves the sizing and it's not noticeable. Drafting vellum is noticeably slick when just made wet, hence, I put patches in a bowl of tap-hot water and stir them around for a minute to remove it. This is probably why your paper is behaving differently when just slightly wet. Papers intended for contact with food, like plain butcher paper, have nothing on them. They are wood pulp papers and are better with partial wetting (spray bottle) to preserve some strength so they survive wrapping.

Your perpendicular nose-stop sounds like a worthy modification. A datum line for the patch and precise placement of the boolit. Sounds like they should be consistent. Since I patch over the ogive (any lead that might touch the barrel gets patched) and by hand, I place the patches on the ogive to where the patched portion is always small enough to enter the throat. They vary a little, but they get the job done.

Good move on cutting the paper relative to the grain. Early in my attempts, I learned that strips cut from the long edge of a drafting sheet will not shrink at all, and a consistently tight patch was very difficult to do. Cutting them from the short edge had a much better effect, plenty of stretch on wrapping and plenty of shrinkage on drying. Sounds like you have a good grasp of the issue. To patch or not to patch the bore-ride nose, it depends how the nose stands up when fired, but we went over that above. Only experimentation will tell you how much acceleration/velocity the unpatched nose will take.

[Michael J. Spangler]

It's a miracle!! I CAN SEE! . . . Okay, that's waaaaay better. I don't have any such photo posting arrangement. I just post them directly to the Cast Boolits page from my PC. That way they'll be on the site for as long as there's the website exists. I hope your Fourth was good as well.

Those three PPB's look great. playing with different degrees of wetness on the patch can facilitate different amounts of stretch, strength, etc. Most papers have "sizing" and coatings on them for stability and taking ink properly or whatever it's intended for. If the paper is made just a little wet, the sizing will affect how it acts. Soaking it generally dissolves the sizing and it's not noticeable. Drafting vellum is noticeably slick when just made wet, hence, I put patches in a bowl of tap-hot water and stir them around for a minute to remove it. This is probably why your paper is behaving differently when just slightly wet. Papers intended for contact with food, like plain butcher paper, have nothing on them. They are wood pulp papers and are better with partial wetting (spray bottle) to preserve some strength so they survive wrapping.

Your perpendicular nose-stop sounds like a worthy modification. A datum line for the patch and precise placement of the boolit. Sounds like they should be consistent. Since I patch over the ogive (any lead that might touch the barrel gets patched) and by hand, I place the patches on the ogive to where the patched portion is always small enough to enter the throat. They vary a little, but they get the job done.

Good move on cutting the paper relative to the grain. Early in my attempts, I learned that strips cut from the long edge of a drafting sheet will not shrink at all, and a consistently tight patch was very difficult to do. Cutting them from the short edge had a much better effect, plenty of stretch on wrapping and plenty of shrinkage on drying. Sounds like you have a good grasp of the issue. To patch or not to patch the bore-ride nose, it depends how the nose stands up when fired, but we went over that above. Only experimentation will tell you how much acceleration/velocity the unpatched nose will take.

I just wish I could shoot more so I can test out these variables more often and get down to the right options to shoot the best. I guess I should enjoy the journey too and not just the destination right?
So this is the patch board modification. My buddy ASP ripped down my board and used his dado set to put some T slot material in the board and use the ripped piece as my fence. I just need to screw down the T slot and I'll be in business.
he did a really nice job and being an engineer came up with about 60 ways to do it better or just different. I was nice to have a $1500 cabinet saw to square everything up compared to my portable table saw.

http://i.imgur.com/kOP9eo1m.jpg

Now I can align my patch with the edge of the main board, and use the fence to keep the meplat in the same spot, thus the patch in the same spot.
Once I get into the reloading room I'll post some pics of the board with a bullet and patch on it. It's wide enough where I can accommodate any length patch up to about 5" long or well over 12 gauge projectile if my sleepy math serves me right. The board is a little over 5" wide so I can accommodate a wide enough patch and long enough bullet to pretty much handle anything that's going to be within our normal casting bullet range also.
I'm very happy with the board and look forward to working with it.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Ok So the patch board works well but the bullet nose tends to drag on the rough cut surface of the fence. I would suggest if someone makes on to cover the faces of the fence with shim stock or maybe paint to to smooth it out.

So tonight I wanted to patch some more of my 405 grain bullets and I figured I would try to cut some patches against the grain.
Well I noted that I needed patches significantly shorter to avoid starting a third wrap.
I also noticed that ANY little tiny variation in my wrapping technique translated exponentially to the results of the wrap stretch. When I dipped the patches in the water completely and didn't have any drag while wrapping they would wrap pretty consistently. When I tried a little wipe of water the paper was a little more crinkly and the resulting drag on the patching board would end up starting a third wrap due to the stretch. I tried to vary my pressure and wrapping technique but couldn't find consistency the way I did with the cross grain and dip, or better yet with the with the grain dipped or wiped with water.

So I started to think....
Though there is more shrink cross grain, I can put more stretch pressure on the with the grain and more consistency so I think the patches will have enough shrink to hold on well and the whole cross grain patch thing is more trouble than it's worth.
So far all that I've patched with the grain has shrunk nice to grab the lube grooves. I'm going to check out the cross vs with the grain dried patches side by side tomorrow to see how much difference there really is in shrinking tight.
Though that's for me at my current level of skill. I'm sure once I have a couple hundred thousand of these patches down I'll be able to get some more consistency with either method.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Ok So Side by side it seams the cross grain patches do shrink on better for sure.
The with the grain patches do shrink enough to see the lube grooves impression a little bit. The cross grain shrinks in a lot more though.
I cut more with the grain patches last night and I can patch them way more consistent like that. I'll stick to that for now. Going to cast some more 405s and some 405 hollow bases today.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Scored 5 pads of 25% staedlater vellum at staples today $3 a pop on clearance. I figured for that price I might as well grab all of it and figure out if it works after the fact.
Seems to wrap well but it must have a lot of sizing because it takes a while to wet. I might try warming the water or adding some baking soda if memory serves me.
It's about .0025" thick. I'm curious to what it dries to. I have a buddy looking to get an oversized bore in a trapdoor to shoot well. I think he's going to have to try some of this paper.

[Michael J. Spangler]

25% rag vellum patched bullets dried to about .462" Sized down to .460 nice and easy. Wondering how they will shoot vs the tracing paper.

[yeahbub]

It's always nice to find a good deal. Is it smooth or that cockle finish stuff? My preference would be for smooth but they'll both work. You like cutting with the grain? Apparently it works, since you're getting sufficient shrinkage to stay tight and the proof is on the target. A single-shot also affords options unavailable with a magazine rifle. Drafting vellum cut with the grain has led to patches I could spin the boolit inside of, no shrink I could see. They shot, but they slipped easily and wouldn't tolerate being worked through a lever action. Cutting across the grain fixed that problem as you've noted. I deliberately cut the patches short and stretch them until the ends meet, which makes for PPB's which will survive rough handling, but I'm not sure 25% papers will withstand that kind of stretching. Wood pulp papers won't.

A few posts ago, I mentioned rolling the wet patched boolit on a textured soft surface to stretch and tighten the patch. You probably thought of this, but that extra step could be done with the initial wrap if that material were on your patch board. Not sure as to the details, but hey, it's an idea.

There have only been a couple of papers I had trouble with when shooting. They were both ultra-thin onion skin/tracing types that were difficult to wrap with, not much strength, and had little inclination to shrink on or stay on the boolit. I can't remember if I ever hit the target, but after a serious lead removal session or two, I decided I must be doing something wrong. These were early attempts with no one to consult and I didn't really know what I was doing. Eventually someone clued me in that exotic papers aren't needed, bank note paper (100% rag) was best but others work well too.

Reducing the diameter by .002 is about enough to compress the paper to full density. Is it shiny smooth afterwards?

[Michael J. Spangler]

The finish was smooth.
It takes a good minute of sitting wet after a full dip before it gets sticky, as to hold onto the bullet at all and to give sufficient drag on the patch board.
I'm thinking of trying this against that grain to see if it has more stretch but maybe a little more repeatable unlike the tracing paper.
If I wipe the water on and try to wrap right away it doesn't wrap tight and doesn't stick to the bullet at all. Weird

I think I'm going to order some 9# onion skin to try. I want something I can have a good source of and a known content to work with. I don't like the idea of not being able to get more of something once I run out.

When I wipe the tracing paper or soak the vellum and wait it gets to the point where it really sticks to the board and the drag while rolling does kind of what you're saying with the textures soft surface.

I'm going to show a picture of the different wraps after they have dried and let me know what you think about sufficient shrinking. I guess the 25% vellum doesn't shrink as much but it did handle the sizing without coming off. It's on there tight.

There was a lot of 100% rag vellum at the store but I figured it would be too thick, I guess I need to bring my mic with me next time.
The paper was very shiny after sizing. I'll try to show a pic of them all as wrapped and then sized to see what you think.
I guess the proof is in the pudding.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Ok here is the promised pic. I didn't have any of the cross grain tracing paper wrapped in the dry state. The middle bullet is a GC postell that I figured I would try. I hear that the GC base makes it's easy to twist or in the case fold under for easy seating. We shall see.
from top to bottom

Tracing paper cut against the grain. Little bit of bore butter and sized to .460

Tracing paper cut with the grain dry
Same as above but with bore butter and .460 sizing

25% rag vellum cut with the grain dry
same as above but with bore butter and .460 sizing.

The tracing paper cross grain does shrink nicely but for the life of me I can't get the patch the same each time.
The tracing paper with the grain I can get just about spot on each time and if I'm a little short I unroll it half way and roll it back with a little more tension and it fixes the problem.

The 25% rag doesn't shrink much but holds on tight. I can't spin the bullet but the patch did look a little loose on the end. It was only one of the bullets so I'm guessing its the last one I wrapped where I didn't allow the paper to soak long enough to get tacky.
Is the sizing down too extreme? I guess being a stronger paper it might hold up better but it has fully compressed which gets rid of the cushion effect which I believe I read about in Matthew's book.


http://i.imgur.com/u7UCVUA.jpg

[Michael J. Spangler]

I'm driving myself crazy. I'm spending too much time wrapping with different papers and not ANY time shooting. I had the past 2 weeks off from the range due to rain and then my wife's birthday. I need to load some test bullets and get out there this week.
I did play with seating depth and chambering rounds. Seems what is a little on the tight side in the Sharps chamber (just kissing the rifling) Chamber pretty freely in the Marlin surprisingly. The dummy rounds also cycle fine through the Marlin and don't seem to be damaged at all.

When I was playing with the sharps I realized the lever was floppy and not staying closed. Well low and behold the lever action spring screw snapped off in the barrel block. I have a new one on order. Guess I have to hold the lever closed when I'm at the range this week.
While I was at it I ordered some 9# onion skin from BACO. I'm hoping this thickness along with the 25% cotton and hopefully good wet working properties will be the magic paper that everyone says it is.
If not I think I'm going to try my Bienfang 100% vellum and the Staedlater 25% vellum wrapped over a .451" bullet vs the Office depot tracing paper wrapped over the .453"
Am I just being a snob looking to have cotton content in the paper? Seems to me more cotton content means less fillers which is better for the bore right?

[oldblinddog]

Have you tried green bar printer paper yet?

[Michael J. Spangler]

I have not.
Seems all I can find is the big boxes of it for sale. I can't find smaller amounts.

Is the 2 part receipt paper and similar 2 part car onleas duplicate pads for various forms that you can find at staples the same type of paper?

[gunwonk]

I have not.
Seems all I can find is the big boxes of it for sale. I can't find smaller amounts.


PM me your mailing address, and I'll send you a couple of sheets.

[oldblinddog]

I have the whole box. I'll be happy to send you few sheets also. Once you try it, you will quit all those other papers.

[yeahbub]

The boolits in the photo look good. Cushioning effect? I don't recall reading about that. What does he say?

If your Marlin has micro-groove rifling, the bore diameter will be greater than conventional rifling, which would be part of why those tight in the Sharps would be easy in the Marlin. With 12-16 lands (they varied over the years), it's only .0015-.002 or so deep with normal groove diameter which means bore diameter will be large. That being said, I'd expect seating details will be different for the Marlin. In a conventional .30 cal, the bore is normally .300, but in a micro-groove, it's .303-.304, hence, a Marlin micro-groove .45-70 should allow more flexibility on nose patching some of those bore-ride designs, eh? Not to mention differences in breech-face-to-rifling-origin length. No doubt, it'll be different in several details.


I need to load some test bullets and get out there this week. I second that motion! I loooove those one-hole groups! . . . . But, then. . . . . I have to fire the second shot. . . . .

I don't think there's any magic one way or another about whether there's cotton content in the paper. It's wood pulp and/or cotton, generally. (There are some papers using other long-fiber source material, like hemp or flax which would make for tough papers that would work well, but their availability is another question.) Cotton papers are more durable and offer more advantages than wood pulp that way, but I've gotten very good results with wood pulp papers too. They're more delicate when wet and sometimes in general, but once wrapped, they serve well. Two I've found very useful are 8.5x11 quadrille tracing paper (no cotton) and plain butcher paper (no plastic coating). They don't have much wet strength, so I just spritz them on one side with a spray bottle and wrap the way they are. I've never used the green bar paper some favor, partly because the green bar I'm familiar with had a texture like newsprint and was poor when wet, but I wasn't patching boolits back then either. Maybe they use a better grade of it. No reason not to try it.

[oldblinddog]

Green Bar is not like newsprint. Was the paper you are talking about the tractor feed?

[Michael J. Spangler]

So I got some 9 pound onions skin from BACO today. It's not as sticky as the tracing paper and wraps a little thinner than the tracing paper for sure.
Seems it will be about .4585 or so when dried. Tomorrow morning will tell.
It wrapped pretty well and was pretty consistent though.
If you buy through their eBay store it's a little cheaper than their website by the way

[303Guy]

I have had some good results using plain 'ol printer paper. It's thick and soft and that is the appeal. It compresses down well and holds the boolit very well in the neck without compressing the core or expanding the neck. It forms a tight fit in the throat too and again, compresses into the bore. Very forgiving paper and dry wraps very well. Not so much for wet wrapping but can be done with care.

But - it is a soft paper .... It seems to like worn bores with well rounded rifling. Not so much rough bores. I dare say it's not the best for higher velocities. It does have its place for some applications. I have a lightweight boolit that shoots very accurately out my very worn and rusted out 303 Brit at subsonic speeds, wrapped with printer paper.

[yeahbub]

It was the tractor-edged paper with the holes down the sides, OBD. I used pounds of it when I was in college debugging that affliction known as FORTRAN. Then the Apple IIe's came out in Basic and I never looked back. It seems I saw some at another job that was finer in texture, not quite as smooth as notebook filler, but not cheap looking like at college. I haven't seen the stuff in some years, but if you have a source and it works, full speed ahead.

303guy, how do you keep dry-wrapped patches tight? I always relied on the shrinkage at drying to keep them tight, whether glued or with a twisted tail. I've used copier paper, but it doesn't have the same feel as quadrille or vellum, and I wondered about what chemical additions I was sending down the bore. I'm not concerned about the titanium oxide whitener - its too fine to be a problem, but I wondered what was being left behind which would affect accuracy. Most wood pulp papers I've used keep some degree of strength when dampened with a spray bottle containing water. You're right, when wetted, they're very difficult to work with.

[303Guy]

I do a twisting between forefinger and thumb of both hands to pull the patch up tight then glue the trailing edge then roll it over the base leaving an 'eye'. I also use a tailless patch. Not sure which is better but printer paper rolls over the best. Printer paper also dry wraps easiest. One can tighten the patch to close the gap.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-781F%202_zpszipwv5fm.jpg (http://s388.photobucket.com/user/303Guy/media/MVC-781F%202_zpszipwv5fm.jpg.html)

With the rolled over tail I glue between the inner and outer wrap below the base. It looks very pretty but with softer alloy the ring gets impressed into the base which may or may not be an issue.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Finally some load testing this week.
I really don't know what to make of it all. I guess they're all shooting ok. I'm not the best shot and I can come up with a dozen other excuses. This was the 485 grain lyman and the lee 405 with various powder charges that I need to write on the targets. I was sighted a bit high so bare with me,.
The conclusion was that the office depot tracing paper worked flawlessly, plenty of confetti with each shot and they all seemed to shoot well enough.
The groups were at 50 yards shot off front and rear bags with a Pedersoli Soule sight and Lyman globe front.
http://i.imgur.com/izSpgw5l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/G3wS24xl.jpg

[Michael J. Spangler]

I did some more shooting a couple weeks back to test out my papers.
I shot some Lyman 535 postell and a Hoch 550 Nose pour wrapped in various papers all with the same charge weight of H4198.
For papers I ran
BACO 25% rag
Staedtler 25% rag vellum
Bienfeng 100% rag vellum
Even though the latter 2 wrap to about .463 or so and looked very thin when sized down to .460 they all shot well and there was plenty of confetti with each shot. No large chunks of wrap were left.
I'll have to dig up my pictures of the groups. They were all 3 shot groups with less than ideal light conditions. 50 yards. If you removed the worst shot they were all under 1" IIRC. Next time I'm going to hit the range with better lighting conditions and try a couple front sight inserts to see which gives me the best sight picture. Then I can shoot a 5 shot group round robin style to see what works best.
All of those bullet and patch combos shot very similar to the point where I can't say any one was better than the other. So next time I'll be testing for an optimal charge weight.
I did play with some more patching to see which paper I liked best.
I have settled on the BACO paper. Its a little tackier when wet and that lends to the starting tail holding on to the bullet while wrapping and also it sticks to the patch board a bit more which causes some nice drag for s tighter finished patch.

I'm going to settle on this .453 patched to .460 with BACO paper combination for the time being. If I can't get that to shoot then I'll be back here to ask the CB brain trust which variable I should be playing with next.
Pics to come on the next post