Trying to make a bolt knob for Savage 11

[Clark]

198234

I am turning Iron Wood, IPE.

I am using 7/16-20 threaded steel rod and then drilling and taping the inside of the rod to 5/16-24.

I am putting a penny in the end with Silicon glue.

I am wiping the wood with tack cloth and alcohol. Then mineral oil and then Johnsons wax.

The rod twists loose inside the threaded wood. Wood glue and Silicone glue failed, so I pinned one with 4-40 stainless.

I think I am going to have to just keep making them until I get good at it.

I will shoot a deer with the rifle in October.

[Tokarev]

Wood will expand inevitably. You might try a few things:
1. Knurl the section of the rod which will be inside the wood.
2. Turn cylindrical blank for the knob, put a bushing over it and make a tight hole.
3. Soak the inside walls of the hole in extra liquid epoxy and lightly hammer the rod in.
4. Chuck the outside length of the rod and turn the knob to shape.

[country gent]

I would continue with the threaded rod as you are but try this little trick tap the wood 7/16 20 so the insert threads into it it will be a little sloppy fit but that's good here. Ten use a good epoxy glue JB weld plastic steel accura glass micro bed or bisonite and glue it in place. As prep clean the wood and metal good with acetone thinners or other solvent to remove all oils from the surfaces. The rod has protective oils from shipping and storage. The wood has its natural oils that inhibit glues solid bonding. The threads inside mating with the rod will increase bond surface greatly and give a nice uniform layer of epoxy to bond. Another trick that might help is a small groove .060 deep and .093 wide at the halfway point of the rod to be filled in with epoxy to form a lock ring surface in the knob. Getting a good bond on some woods is a real issue with the natural oils in them. a mechanical lock in the bod helps a lot.

[GhostHawk]

Agree with country gent. You want that knob on there for a LONG time, use epoxy. Any cheap 5 min epoxy, put a smear on the rod and a smear in the hole. Thread together, wipe off excess, set it overnight and done.

If you are fussy about the orientation of your penny I would put that in last again with just a touch of epoxy.

Once bolt handle is setup in place you can set it how you like it.

Cool idea.

[country gent]

We used to extend and make new knobs up for NRA High Power match rifles to help in the 2 rapid fire stages. The shape Clark shows was popular as was a tear drop style and a round one. we used steel or aluminum for them, the round ones were off the shelf bakelite balls with 5/16 24 thread inserts. Usually red or black in color.We even some times extended the handle a little by forging it thinner over its length. A lot can be done here.

[Clark]

198433

The one I made yesterday blew up on the lathe.... but the Silicon glue works to fasten 7/16-20 threaded rod in 7-16-20 wood female threads, if given enough time.
I made another one today.
The order of the steps is tricky. When I get good, I will write it down.

[LAGS]

A friend of mine was talking about a New bolt Knob for his Savage.
He jokingly said " I want something Big , like a T handle Hurst gearshift knob on my Camaro".
So As a Joke.
I took a Plastic T pull handle off of an old Lawn Mower pull cord.
Drilled out the shaft to 3/8" and took a 3/8 " aluminum bushing that had a 5/16 internal thread cut a few grooves in the outside with my Poor Mans Lathe and a file, then gorilla glued the bushing into the T handle shank.
He about died when I installed it and handed him his rifle back.
But he Loved it.
The point Being, You should be able to Epoxy a bushing into the block of wood like I did, then mount it on a shaft and be able to turn the outside of the wood knob without the bushing coming loose, or the wood splitting.
But I like your Wood knob design.

[country gent]

The silicone glue may be part of the problem as its a rubbery bond that allows give or spring to start working on the bond area. A tougher harder epoxy may be a better bond for this. Even better would be an epoxy with a bonding grit in it, this grit helps to maintain the glues thickness not allowing it to be completely pushed out any where in the bond area. Ina bind I have used a small amout of grinding ash from a pedestal grinder or very fine metal filings added into the mix. This mix of epoxy and bond agent helps a lot with a solid bond.

[OS OK]

Have you thought about using a piece of 'burl wood'?

I know that the iron wood is pretty hard but the grain is what's failing. I was trying to use some Manzanita on a furniture project once, it's hard as a bone and cuts and shapes perfectly but any stress that lined up with the grain would end up splitting...straight sections of that stuff would split if you sneezed at it!

[ulav8r]

Instead of the silicone glue, use super glue. Soak the wood with the super glue, then screw in the insert. The super glue will soak into the wood and strengthen it, so use plenty. It won't hurt to let it soak in for awhile, then put in a little more when you put the insert in.

[Clark]

198481

I am working in rock hard maple right now.

[country gent]

On pen and pencil sets I have used super glue ( not the grocery store variety but a slightly longer cure version sold by wood crafters) as a finish. Helps stop the checking that can happen over time in fancy woods, strengthens the wood, and makes a super hard surface finish. The cyclanates can make a very solid joint. In this use I would ake the tapped hole and coat well soaking the threads heavily several times while still wet ( this allows it to soak in deeper and fills the wood grain in better and deeper). Then clean the insert well and re tap the filled in threads again to clean them up, this will remove the build up leaving the filled in threads and prepped surface for the glue bond. Clean the thread of all dust and dirt. Glue in the insert and let cure overnight. While these glues set up quickly full bond strength isn't achieved for 24 hours or so. ( Some epoxies set in 24 hours but don't achieve full strength for 7 days) I would then work it close to round and size by hand with a small plane or rasp before going to the lathe. This helps keep centrifugal forces down on the piece and the jarring of taking the corners off of it. Making for a smoother cut. Turn round and coat again with cyclamates allowing to cure some and turn to size plus sanding stock and coat again with the glue. allow to cure and finish sand, again coating then the final sand polish. If desired this can be buffed bright with a soft cloth and some dry rouge. Keep in mind the harder fancy woods are a tighter grain work and don't soak up the finish / glues as well as the more open woods. Ebony is bad for this as its tight grain and the natural oils don't lend to a solid bond.
On the block you show above Cut the corners down so you have a octagon close to center of the hole maybe even knock those corners down a little for a semi round start. Also make sure your lathe chisel is very sharp and use the cutting edge about 1/3rd way back from the point on it. I have a skew gouge that's a crose between a gouge and skewer that really does a nice job for this type of work, but that have to be very sharp. Not just ground but honed to a very fine smooth sharp edge.

[country gent]

Another trick is make it longer by 1/2"-1" and turn round and true then use a cup point center around the outside end to help hold it together. You may have to use a parting tool to get a place to start turning also

[Cap'n Morgan]

As mentioned above, it's partly a grain problem. Try drilling perpendicular to the grain, it may even result in a more sophisticated look:wink: Use a two component epoxy, like boat builders use, it's extremely strong and will bind on a smooth surface. I would use an insert without threads on the outside and just roughen the surface a bit. Fill the bottom of the hole with epoxy and push the insert in place allowing the surplus epoxy to float around the insert for a perfect bond.

[Clark]

198518
Did the Maple this morning.

I am really unhappy with Silicon glue drying time.

I have stainless 7/16-20 threaded rod on order and 7/16-20/ 5/16-24 threaded bushings on order.

I am going to order super glue and 5 minute epoxy and try to make some traction cuts in the wood and 7/16-20 steel thread.

[TCLouis]

I think there is a one word solution if I read your post correctly . . .

Epoxy

[nekshot]

just a crazy idea, would one that split be strong enough if reglued with epoxy? The weak point is exposed in the grain so the glue might keep it together?

[HangFireW8]

Not crazy, a good epoxy is stronger than wood. By good I don't mean 5 Minute epoxy.

-HF

[country gent]

Some of the industrial grade epoxies beingused in manufacturing rival aluminum in strength now. The thing is getting them in small quanities that we need. We had some that when mixed was still water thin on the one line and a very strong solid bond.

[Clark]

198614

I got some new stuff:
Ebony
non magnetic 7/16-20 stainless threaded rod

When I drilled and tapped the center of the rod to 5/16-24, the metal was tough. I had to slow down and use carbide to center drill. Tapping was like I was shown in jr high shop 52 years ago: cut 1/8 turn, back off 1/4 turn to break the chip. I hate working stainless, but it is a stainless bolt handle, stainless receiver, and stainless barrel. I might as well try.

[Clark]

198767198768198769

From right to left in line up:
Anodized Aluminum from the factory, 1.27 ounces
IPE wood, drilled and tapped Aluminum alloy insert, both glues are Silicon sealant 0.74 ounces
IPE wood, drilled and tapped steel 7/16-20 threaded rod insert, both glues are Silicon sealant 0.88 ounces
Maple wood, drilled and tapped stainless steel 7/16-20 threaded rod insert, both glues are Silicon sealant 0.85 ounces
Ebony wood, drilled and tapped stainless steel 7/16-20 threaded rod insert, both glues are Silicon sealant 1.2 ounces


The picture of the block [tomorrow's knob] is
Oak wood, drilled and tapped stainless steel 7/16-20 threaded rod insert, the one glue so far [no coin yet] is Devcon liquid steel two part epoxy

[Clark]

198832

I made two more today, one from Oak and one from ebony.
I will always use epoxy on the threaded insert from now on.

[Bzcraig]

The ebony one is really nice!!

[Clark]

BZcraig, you encouragement just got me to order more ebony

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-1-2-x-1-1-2-x-3-Gaboon-Ebony-Gabon-Diospyros-Crassiflora-Bottle-Stopper/311504819392

[725]

This is so neat. You do very nice work, indeed.

[Bzcraig]

BZcraig, you encouragement just got me to order more ebony

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-1-2-x-1-1-2-x-3-Gaboon-Ebony-Gabon-Diospyros-Crassiflora-Bottle-Stopper/311504819392

I've always been a sucker for the combination of black & shiny together. Then adding the third element of copper is very nice. Wish I had your skill set and tooling!

[Clark]

198929

I made one from IPE wood this morning. It cost me $2.98 ebay delivered to get an uncirculated penny from 1951, the year I was born.

[Clark]

199083199084

Today I made an 8th bolt handle.
This one from a cherry tree I cut down in my late parent's yard 15 years ago.
I looked for the most irregular grain, and I got it.

[Clark]

199226

I made a big one from my Mahogany.

[Clark]

199312

Douglas Fir limb with many growth rings

[Any Cal.]

I keep clicking on the thread to see how they look on the rifle...

They seem like they look good, but need to see one mounted... or maybe all of them!

[Clark]

I got a 1/4" carbide drill bit and that sped things up, but not as much as these inserts that arrived:
http://www.globalindustrial.com/product?itemKey=30897002

I switched from Devcon liquid steel epoxy to 5 minute epoxy.

Some burled Maple arrived.
A 1951 dime arrived.
A PTG bolt for a short action Rem700 arrived.

199627

[David2011]

Glad you got it solved. Having built radio controlled models since 1977 and flying models since 1964 or 65 I have learned a lot about adhesives.

Hope I don't step on any toes here. First, silicone sealer (not silicon, that is a hard substance) is not a glue. It is a sealer against air and water leaks. "Any cheap 5 minute epoxy" is not something to use anywhere on a firearm. Even "good" 5 minute never gets hard and it ages poorly. Just this week I peeled old 5 minute out of the hull of a nice RC sailboat. It was rubbery and turned loose pretty easy. I've done this many times over the years. It usually comes off of the surface leaving no evidence it was ever there. A job like this calls for Acra-glas, WEST Epoxy, 30 minute Z-Poxy or Aeropoxy. If filling a gap some milled glass fibers will thicken and strengthen the epoxy. A slow cure epoxy with sufficient milled glass fibers is strong enough to drill and tap with good structural strength. I use it for glass bedding as well, used like Acra-glas gel.

When using thickened epoxy it's best to brush some unthickened epoxy onto the bonding surfaces. The thickened epoxy won't soak in so the thinner stuff provides an anchor to the thickened portion. Many epoxies will not adhere to aluminum without roughing up the surface. Eve then it just locks into the scratches and may not truly stick. I've mixed WEST on 6061 aluminum sheets so I could peel the leftovers off after it cured.

Yesterday I repaired a door to an antique cabinet. Someone had used silicone sealer to adhere a poor repair in place. Getting it out was a real pain. Silicone sealer dissolves in gasoline but I couldn't use gas on the wood door.

Hope this helps send people in the right direction for adhesives.

[nekshot]

easy now, don't spend all your retirement money on those coins!! Looks good and I always liked the simple white knob on the Hurst competition plus shifters. Can you make one of them?

[bedbugbilly]

They certainly are beautiful and unique! I've enjoyed keeping track of this thread - beautiful work and I love the coins!

[Clark]

199891199892

The Ginkgo sapwood from my yard is the worst wood I have ever dealt with. The grain raises when it gets oil... and I made my own mistakes on top of that.

But the African Blackwood cuts so smooth it only needs sanding for shaping. Here is a the Blackwood without tack cloth, oil, or wax. It is already smooth as silk.

[Dryball]

You do great work! You make me want to dig up my Snakewood and Lignum Vitae and send it to ya to work on.

[Clark]

200467200468

I made one from Zebra wood, but it is open grain like Oak, and the grain gets raised when I clean it.

I just made one from Cherry, the tree my father planted, and I like that.

[Clark]

200731
200732
200733

I made a couple more from cherry wood from my father's yard.

I made one from Rhododendron in my yard. It was live, wet, and hard to work. But the sap bled so it looked like vanilla ice cream mixing with sherbert. After a week in the shop it was dry and workable. But working it sands off the orange bleed through.