The ".38 magnum!"

[sawinredneck]

I've got a neighbor that drinks too much, talks too much and just doesn't think at all, I'm sure you all know one, hero to zero in one beer or less!
He managed to talk a friend of his into selling him a new .38 special Ruguer SP101, really nice gun!
He kept coming down here trying to talk guns with me and kept brining up the .38 magnum, "I need me some .38 magnums for that bad dude, that gun is just sweet, I need some magnums for it!"
I'd explain there was no such thing but they did make +P and +P+ loads that were hottter and his gun could easily shoot them. I'd explain how it all worked and he'd drop it.
Next day, we'd start all over! I'd send him links that explained the difference between all of them, "Thanks dude, that makes perfect sense now!"
Next day, we'd start all over!
I'd had enough! I took some .357mag brass and cut it down to .38 length and loaded up five rounds with some Barry's plated hp's, I went right in between the top .38 loads and the bottom .357 loads. I knew I wasn't going to blow the gun up, I could ream it and shoot .357's in it fine!
He shot them, didn't save the cases of course, but he's never once brought up .38 magnums again? Guess they were a bit too warm for him?
Another thread right now is discussing the FBI load and what it is vs what it was vs what it could be.
Then I read about how much easier .38 brass extracts from snubbies and found a Buffalo Bore load, 158grn at 1,100fps.
I then had a crazy idea, how hard could I push cut down .357 brass in a .357 gun, thus the .38 magnum?
Now I already know it's not a smart idea and I can hear it now "Your going to end up shooting one in a .38 and blow the gun up!" I don't own a .38, these would only be shot in my personal .357's (I hope to get another soon).
But just how hard could/should a person think about pushing these? I know "start low and gradually work up", but would the end game be worth it? Would I get a significant enough increase in velocity to make it worth the time trimming the brass? (Not aneasy thing mind you!)
In the case of the loads I made for the neighbor, I opted for .357 brass just as a cya move, in theory .38spec brass should have held up with those loads, but I wanted to be certain!
So, tell me how stupid, crazy or genius on this one?

[Hickok]

198229

[tazman]

This begs the question--What is the end game here? Is there some purpose other than just seeing what can be done?

[sawinredneck]

Right now, just pure speculation on if higher velocities could happen with the shorter case.

[sawinredneck]

198229

If you don't ask, you'll never know!

[Blackwater]

Some folks learn from watching or listening to others. Some have to pee on the electric fence to learn. And now that it's not PC to shout at such obvious fools, and tell them they're gonna' die if they try what they want to do, we have .... the "Darwin Awards." Your neighbor sounds like sooner or later he's gonna' end up getting his "award?" Not much you can do. Fools do what fools want to do. You do NOT, however, have to watch them do it!

[sawinredneck]

Ok, let's look at this from another angle. We know the .357 can withstand more pressure than the .38spec case. We also know Buffalo is getting 1,100fps from .38spec, but that's the limit. What could happen if you had the higher pressure of the .357 in a .38 length case?
I can't be the only person to have ever wondered this?

Yes, my neighbor is a very "special" type! He managed to "upset" a friend of mine that happens to be an SO, he's on the "watch for DUI" list in the entire county now. Not a smart move!

[Outpost75]

Last time I had a fellow ask me a similarly stupid question like that, I assembled some black powder .45 ACP loads for him with 255-grain lead-conical .45 Colt slugs for him to shoot a match with. He never bothered me after that.

[sawinredneck]

Last time I had a fellow ask me a similarly stupid question like that, I assembled some black powder .45 ACP loads for him with 255-grain lead-conical .45 Colt slugs for him to shoot a match with. He never bothered me after that.
Very niiiiiiiice!

[OS OK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTxqDcefQlU . . . https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0SO8z29ok1ZIVgAlTdXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByb2lvbXV uBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1498288957/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.youtube.com%2fwatch%3fv%3diTx qDcefQlU/RK=1/RS=Yww4JmQrNYBBykXv0Hz9GJURViw-

There's a You-Tube channel out there that has done this same basic thing with .38 Special cases...I argued with him at the time but got nowhere with him...just don't load hot .38 Specials over +P+ and 'in +P+ cases' only, regardless what you intend to fire them in....there will come along a 'goof' who will load them into a .38 Special...Murphy will make sure it happens!

[sawinredneck]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTxqDcefQlU . . . https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0SO8z29ok1ZIVgAlTdXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByb2lvbXV uBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1498288957/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.youtube.com%2fwatch%3fv%3diTx qDcefQlU/RK=1/RS=Yww4JmQrNYBBykXv0Hz9GJURViw-

There's a You-Tube channel out there that has done this same basic thing with .38 Special cases...I argued with him at the time but got nowhere with him...just don't load hot .38 Specials over +P+ and 'in +P+ cases' only, regardless what you intend to fire them in....there will come along a 'goof' who will load them into a .38 Special...Murphy will make sure it happens!
"Coming to you from the hotlead zone, huh, huh."
That guys a total tool! Not sure if him or elvisammo are more annoying?
But that's not the same idea, that's pushing the .38 case to its limits, and maybe beyond? Then hoping the gun holds it all together for you! I know the .357 case is stronger, so it should take more pressure, safely, than the .38 case.
I need to look at the case lengths again, I forget the length difference, maybe leave the .357 cases .100" longer than the .38's so they can't be put in a .38 gun? Then I'd get more fps and better extraction?
Really, I'm just spit balling here. Maybe it's an incredibly bad idea, I dunno? Maybe there is nothing to be gained with the stronger case?

[CHeatermk3]

Yeah, you need to check the case lengths again...

[Petrol & Powder]

I try to stay away from people that are unintelligent. There's a difference between ignorance and a lack of intelligence.

An ignorant person may have the capacity to learn but has not been exposed to the information and is therefore ignorant.
I am often ignorant and I openly admit it. Hopefully I can change that situation and learn if I have the opportunity.

A person that lacks intelligence is in a completely different situation. They lack the ability (or often just the desire) to learn and cannot be helped. They aren't worth your time. Move on.

[Larry Gibson]

"We know the .357 can withstand more pressure than the .38spec case. We also know Buffalo is getting 1,100fps from .38spec, but that's the limit. What could happen if you had the higher pressure of the .357 in a .38 length case?"

That is not the case (pun intended). Modern made 38 SPL cases can handle the same pressure level as 357 magnum cases. That is not to be confused with the same loads, just the same pressure level. Loading the higher pressures (again, not the same loads but the same pressure) in the 38 SPL would result in no more damage to the 38 SPL case than the 357 magnum case. Research the 38/44 loads of past intended for N Frame S&W 38 SPLs.

That leads us to the real difference between the 38 SPL and the 357 Magnum. It is in the guns (mostly older revolvers) made for them. Most older 38 SPL firearms are not made to handle 357 magnum level pressures. While both the 38 SPL and 357 magnum cases can handle the same pressures the firearms made specifically for each most often can not.

Larry Gibson

[sawinredneck]

"We know the .357 can withstand more pressure than the .38spec case. We also know Buffalo is getting 1,100fps from .38spec, but that's the limit. What could happen if you had the higher pressure of the .357 in a .38 length case?"

That is not the case (pun intended). Modern made 38 SPL cases can handle the same pressure level as 357 magnum cases. That is not to be confused with the same loads, just the same pressure level. Loading the higher pressures (again, not the same loads but the same pressure) in the 38 SPL would result in no more damage to the 38 SPL case than the 357 magnum case. Research the 38/44 loads of past intended for N Frame S&W 38 SPLs.

That leads us to the real difference between the 38 SPL and the 357 Magnum. It is in the guns (mostly older revolvers) made for them. Most older 38 SPL firearms are not made to handle 357 magnum level pressures. While both the 38 SPL and 357 magnum cases can handle the same pressures the firearms made specifically for each most often can not.

Larry Gibson
Well that settles this discussion easily! NOTHING. To be gained, that's all I wanted to know, thank you sir!
I guess if he ever asks again I can load him some squibs, wonder how long it'd take him to figure out a bullet didn't come out?
Nah, I'm not that mean, yet.

[dubber123]

Larry is right, there is no difference in the cases. I tried just what you are proposing 25 years ago, and found loads in either brass topped out at exactly the same point. I finally sectioned a 38 and a 357 case, and they were identical, web, walls everything.

[sawinredneck]

Thank you as well! Like I said, if you don't ask, you can't learn.

[M-Tecs]

As Larry stated the .38/44 Heavy Duty was the original 38 Magnum. https://americanhandgunner.com/the-3844-heavy-duty/

[FergusonTO35]

You can make some pretty serious .38's with Blue Dot or H4227 and magnum primers. I used to shoot 'em in my Marlin 1894 as, at the time, I had tons of .38 brass but very few .357's. These were right at the limit of published +P data and seemed to shoot about the same as factory lead bullet .357's.

[bob208]

go read skeeter skelton. then read about the .38-44 loads. which were light .357 loads in .38 cases.

[9.3X62AL]

Larry Gibson saved me a lot of typing. Thank you, sir.

I have only two 38 Special revolvers presently. One is +P capable, one is not. I no longer load 38 Special +P ammo, since I no longer carry it for felon repellent. Standard pressure 38 Specials are enjoyable, all-day loads to empty out at paper, iron, varmints, and small game.

A lot of my 357 Magnum loading corresponds more closely to "38/44" intensities than to full-bore 357 Magnum pressures of the Doug Wesson era. A #358429 or #358156 honking along at 1100 FPS is a very useful loading--not so blasty and bumpy as the Old School 357s running in the 1400 FPS ballpark, but substantially more of a load than the 750-800 FPS offered by standard-grade 38s in the 155-165 grain ballpark. Truth to tell, most factory 357 Magnum loads run a jacketed 158 grain bullet at 1225-1250 FPS in these days of J-frame S&W and 1873 Winchester repros chambered to the caliber. Not much more than the 38/44 offered in the 1930s, really. Bottom line.....any 38/357 caliber loading at my house exceeding standard 38 Special pressures gets put up in 357 cases.

[Three44s]

......................Bottom line.....any 38/357 caliber loading at my house exceeding cases standard 38 Special pressures gets put up in 357 cases.

When I got married my wife had/has a 38 revolver and my hot rodding days of 38 came to a screechin' halt!

Three 44s

[54bore]

Last time I had a fellow ask me a similarly stupid question like that, I assembled some black powder .45 ACP loads for him with 255-grain lead-conical .45 Colt slugs for him to shoot a match with. He never bothered me after that.

I bet not!! LOL, to funny!!

[Walkingwolf]

I try not to stick my nose in other people's business, and I tend to not listen to other people who think they have some sort of authority to tell others their facts of life. What this boils down to is why worry about what your neighbor thinks about loads, it's his gun, his responsibility. Why go through that frustration of trying to tell someone, even if you are right, that this is the way it should be.

As far as hot 38 loads as has been mentioned it has already been done, and in some very light old light guns. Truth is modern guns it takes a lot to blow one up, but the hotter the ammo the sooner it wears out. Personally I see no problem with "38 magnum"/38-44 loads, it's your gun to do what you want with it, as long as you do not break any laws. OTH I will do with my gun what I want, and sometimes that is loading, and shooting hot loads.

[yeahbub]

In a lever-action Rossi 92, I load .357 mag loads in 38 brass, BUT, TO .357 OAL. For some reason, the several .357 Rossi's I'm familiar with won't feed .357's without some lever jiggling (.38 spec. cartridge guides), but the same loads in .38 brass loaded long feed just fine. Loaded long, they won't find their way into a .38 revolver without sticking out the front of the cylinder, thus preventing their use.

[bedbugbilly]

Always amazed me how some folks are smart enough to be able to read the label on a can or bottle of beer to make sure they're drinking their brand but not smart enough to read and learn about things they think they already know . . . just saying' . . . . . . :-)

[MT Gianni]

Ask yourself why you are trying to solve an uneducateable drunks problems.

[Texas by God]

Last time I had a fellow ask me a similarly stupid question like that, I assembled some black powder .45 ACP loads for him with 255-grain lead-conical .45 Colt slugs for him to shoot a match with. He never bothered me after that.
I wish I had that on video!

[sawinredneck]

Ask yourself why you are trying to solve an uneducateable drunks problems.

Oh I'd solved it the time he fired those rounds!
Now mind you, this wasn't days,not even weeks, he'd gone on for months about this! I'd explain, he'd forget two days later!
Listening to what was left of him today he's been stealing his girlfriend's Xanax and Adavan on top of his beer drinking.
Now, before you judge me, I know this loaded idiot has a loaded gun and is only two houses down from my wife and son. Yes, I'm better armed, but he has the surprise and "luck" with it.
How much do you want to push that button?

[OS OK]

That idgit sounds like he's going to eventually be a problem for you...

I keep my handloading/casting on the 'down low' around acquaintances...especially neighbors.

[ghh3rd]

An old (older than me) guy just gave me a box of 50 .38's that he reloaded years ago. Think I'll shoot them? Nope - they might be .38 Magnums! :-) I will however use the brass and lead once I pull them apart

[gpidaho]

Hello All: I thought I'd share my 38 magnum load. As always use this at your own risk. It consists of the NOE 360-200-FN over 10.3gr. of IMR 4227 and 38spl brass. This fills the case to just about the bullets base. The reason for this load is it allows me to use the 200gr bullet in my Ruger GP-100 (max COL for the cylinder) and it fits the magazine of my Ruger 357/77 carbine. I have the RG2 mould so I can choose flat point, cup point or hollow point. This load will put a WHACK on your target for a 38spl round. Gp This combination only works in 357 chambered guns and may be too long of a COL for some chambers

[GrizzLeeBear]

I didn't see anyone else ask the "Captain Obvious" question, so I will. Why are you loading ammo for this fool anyway? Even loading standard .38 loads is a bad liability risk with this idiot, let alone loading HOT loads. Do you and your family a favor and tell him to go buy factory ammo somewhere else. When he eventually does something stupid and injures himself or someone else with this gun, the first question his lawyer is going to ask is, where did you get this defective, overloaded ammunition. You think you are doing him a favor, but HE is going to be the one that sues YOU when something bad happens.

[sawinredneck]

I only loaded the five rounds, once, to make the point. He's never asked, I've never offered since then. He's got three 50rd boxes of fmj and five +P jhp's that he got from the guy he bought the gun from. He thinks he's set for life.

[Walkingwolf]

Ask yourself why you are trying to solve an uneducateable drunks problems.

Like they really are going to listen. There is only one person any of us can influence, the subject does not matter.

[Walkingwolf]

Oh I'd solved it the time he fired those rounds!
Now mind you, this wasn't days,not even weeks, he'd gone on for months about this! I'd explain, he'd forget two days later!
Listening to what was left of him today he's been stealing his girlfriend's Xanax and Adavan on top of his beer drinking.
Now, before you judge me, I know this loaded idiot has a loaded gun and is only two houses down from my wife and son. Yes, I'm better armed, but he has the surprise and "luck" with it.
How much do you want to push that button?

Does his choice of ammo change his danger any? Again, why are you bothering yourself with this? I know how I handle annoying people, and it is not trying to change them.

[sawinredneck]

I can try to make an enemy,that I have to constantly worry about, or I can make a friend that will tell me his idiotic plans. Which would you rather have next door?

[Crash_Corrigan]

I loaded up some 41 Magnum brass with black powder and stuck a 210 gr LSWC on top. It garnered some strange looking at the range whilst the smoke cleared on a calm day. Shot the same but the recoil was a long push rather than a strong snappy recoil. If it was not such a PITA to handle and load BP I would do more of it. The cleanup does not bother me but the slow reloading by hand does. Using my Dillon 550B I can crank out 300 rds per hour with ease as I have a casefeeder on my Dillon along with that roller bearing thingie on the primer unit. All I do is place the boolit on the case at station 3 yank the handle, push the handle and then flick the base of the shellplate and whalla! Another round done and in the bin.

BP is another animal altogether. Gotta have and use a brass powder measure, use brass funnel and try not to generate a static electricity spark anywhere near powder at all. I end up using an old Lyman Spar T turret press. I deprime and size the case. Run a bunch of like status cases through the Thumbler Tumbler with ss pins, dawn and lemishine. Then I hand prime the cases with my Lee hand primer. Then using a loading tray I charge each case. I then put the prepared case w/powder back into the press and seat and then crimp the round one by one. It is a slow but very careful and I seldom make more than 150 rounds an hour this way. But they are a lot of fun to shoot.

[tazman]

I can try to make an enemy,that I have to constantly worry about, or I can make a friend that will tell me his idiotic plans. Which would you rather have next door?

Excellent point

[Walkingwolf]

I can try to make an enemy,that I have to constantly worry about, or I can make a friend that will tell me his idiotic plans. Which would you rather have next door?

So you would rather have a friend around that has proven to be an idiot, or keep your distance. Keeping distance does not make one an enemy, but sometimes trying to control others does.

Are progressives our friends because they tell us what is best for us?

[sawinredneck]

So you would rather have a friend around that has proven to be an idiot, or keep your distance. Keeping distance does not make one an enemy, but sometimes trying to control others does.

Are progressives our friends because they tell us what is best for us?
Ever hear the saying "Keep your friends close, but your enemy's closer"?
I have intentions to separate myself from him in the future, but I'd much rather do it subtly and not have the fight, than otherwise.

[Tom W.]

May I chime in and recommended not loading anything for anyone. I have a buddy that is coming up from Florida to visit. He has a NIB Ruger revolver that he's never taken out of the box, let alone cleaned, loaded or fired. The last time he shot ànything was 35 years or so ago when he was in the USAF. I told him that I'd show him what to do with the firearm, ( I am a state certified instructor ) and after we got back from the range I'd closely supervise HIM loading a few handloads. One at a time. I've been casting for a few sessions, I do need to size and lube the boolits, but HE will do the actual loading process. Granted, he is not an alcoholic or do drugs, nor does he live anywhere close.

[ikarus1]

Pretty sure it's illegal for that guy to even possess a handgun based on what you've told us. He couldn't truthfully answer no to several questions on a 4473, so I dang sure wouldn't supply him anything


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[9.3X62AL]

Redneck--I do not admire your plight having to live next door to a grommet like that.

The only people using my reloads are immediate family members. If some gets butt-hurt because I won't be his/her discount ammo concession, too darn bad. I try to not be rude about it, but when asked I say "I only have time to keep myself and close family in ammo". Most folks understand that. A couple cheap and dense co-workers of mine needed a bit more insistence, and got a case of the a-- when I told them IT WON'T HAPPEN. Jerks.

[Groo]

Groo here
Redneck, at one time ALL 38spec S&W revolvers steel [including J-frames] were tested to shoot the 38-44 high speed load.
Just remember, people back then shot "target" loads for range and carried the "real stuff".
Also , round counts were much less.
The Ruger SP101 was chambered for 38's and often chambered for 357 [ 125 gr "Flame throwers"]
The FBI used special loads {357} made up in 38spec cases for the short stroke snub magnums they were using.[not to be given to the public]
per G. Gordon Liddy.

[9.3X62AL]

The FBI used special loads {357} made up in 38spec cases for the short stroke snub magnums they were using.[not to be given to the public]
per G. Gordon Liddy.

I read this elsewhere a while back. I had use of a FBI Model 13 x 3" for a few months' time, and IIRC it had a full-length ejector rod--and that was a key to its acceptance for service. The Model 19 x 2.5" had a shorter rod, as did a 2" Model 10 I carted around for a few years at work. The Model 13 x 3" was a GREAT CCW rig, though the flame-thrower 125 grainers you speak of will eat them up over time. With my shop's W-W 158 JHP Super-Xs on board, it was a real performer.

[sawinredneck]

There's actually a tread discussing just that, http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?337450-Chrony-Data-Rem-FBI-Load-Duplication-with-Unique-Red-Dot-BE-86
IF he ever brings it up again I'll have him go buy a box of the Buffalo Bore 158grn +P+ ammo. Somehow they are getting 1,100fps out of a 2" .38 special!

[9.3X62AL]

Redneck--I think I'll keep those Buffalo Bore loads OUT AND AWAY FROM my Colt Officer's Model Target, and my early-60s S&W Model 10 x 5" as well. With three high-strength 357 Magnum revolvers and a lever rifle in 357, hot-rodding the 38 Special makes no sense at all.

[sawinredneck]

Well, there's a couple reasons I sold my Rossi .38 snubbie and bought a .357 LCR. One was I wanted a SS gun, I tend to sweat and it's my light clothing/grab and go gun. The other, I'd wanted a .357 before I bought the Rossi, but finances didn't allow it at the time and I regretted that gun from the moment I bought it. I had the money to buy a SS Taurus snub, but not enough to buy a box of ammo that day. It sucks being broken and at the whim of my wife's purse strings! But it is what it is.
But I agree with you, a little more and he could have had a .357, but he got "OH, SHINEY!"

[ikarus1]

.38 +p is plenty in a 2" barrel


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[ghh3rd]

Talking about .38 magnum loads -- I was thinking of doing the opposite and cutting some .38 spl brass very short and loading some light projectiles over a little powder, just for grins - ".38 shorts". Guess I'd have to clean out some carbon rings further down in the cylinder than usual...

[sawinredneck]

Interesting idea, let us know how it works.

[9.3X62AL]

Talking about .38 magnum loads -- I was thinking of doing the opposite and cutting some .38 spl brass very short and loading some light projectiles over a little powder, just for grins - ".38 shorts". Guess I'd have to clean out some carbon rings further down in the cylinder than usual...

That is one of the more annoying side-effects of "short-casing" in a Magnum revolver.

[Larry Gibson]

Talking about .38 magnum loads -- I was thinking of doing the opposite and cutting some .38 spl brass very short and loading some light projectiles over a little powder, just for grins - ".38 shorts". Guess I'd have to clean out some carbon rings further down in the cylinder than usual...

I used some Star Line 38 SPLs cut back to 38 S&W length to pressure test loads in my Contender barrel. Then I found some Star Line 38 S&W cases that would chamber in the tight Contender .357 Magnum chamber. By all measurements they are the same as the 38 SPL Star Line cases I shortened.

Larry Gibson

[Good Cheer]

The use of .38 cases to load .357's made a splash about what, 30 years ago?
All the load data was the same if you kept the overall length the same.
So where the boolits got crimped became very important.

[fecmech]

Talking about .38 magnum loads -- I was thinking of doing the opposite and cutting some .38 spl brass very short and loading some light projectiles over a little powder, just for grins - ".38 shorts". Guess I'd have to clean out some carbon rings further down in the cylinder than usual...

Why bother cutting the cases, just seat the bullets deeper like these Remington factory .32's. No carbon ring.

[Landy88]

While off topic from pain-in-the-*** neighbors and loads, apparently some very early 357 guns and ammo got out marked 38 Magnum.

The older guy that taught me aircraft woodworking had a revolver so marked; and bought, after much searching, a box of ammo to keep with it for show. It's been enough years to fuzz the memory, and the focus was on wood and wings: but IIRC it was a pre-27 large frame S&W in a presentation wood case.

[sawinredneck]

While off topic from pain-in-the-*** neighbors and loads, apparently some very early 357 guns and ammo got out marked 38 Magnum.

The older guy that taught me aircraft woodworking had a revolver so marked; and bought, after much searching, a box of ammo to keep with it for show. It's been enough years to fuzz the memory, and the focus was on wood and wings: but IIRC it was a pre-27 large frame S&W in a presentation wood case.
In this thread, sir, there really is no off topic! Have at it, it's all in jest anyways!

[sniper]

Irish Proverb: Never approach a Bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or an Idiot from any direction!