Chrony Data: Rem FBI Load Duplication with Unique, Red Dot, BE-86

[Low Budget Shooter]

As it is of general interest to a number of us 38 Special lovers how we can duplicate the factory FBI Load - 158-grain SWC hollow point +P, especially the Remington version, I would like to add some of my chrono test data to the body of knowledge we who love the FBI load can use for getting close on duplicating it.

I am working from the baseline that IN GENERAL, the Remington FBI load makes an average of slightly more than 800 fps from 2" barrel revolvers. No one needs to inform me that this velocity varies with a number of factors. I'm taking that number as an approximate mark only, and from two reputable sources. Here are the two sources:

1) Stephen Camp - "From my 'slowest' barrel Model 642, Remington's 158-gr. LSWCHP +P hits 800 ft/sec with monotonous regularity."
link: http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38%20Special%20158gr%20LSWCHP.htm

2) Lucky Gunner - from Kimber K6s - average 802 low 767 5 shots - 767, 801, 802, 818, 824
link: http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#38spl

My chrono work on my reloads has shown some loads with numbers very similar to those.

35Remington convinced me a couple of years ago to pay attention to how the velocity is affected by the powder being forward in the case, as when the gun has just been drawn from a holster or raised from a low ready position. So my tests include that, and you see those numbers here. In each case, you see that the lowest velocity reading is from among the "powder forward" shots. Since the first shot fired in a self-defense situation would probably be "powder forward," that is significant.

Bullet was a 358429 HP at 160 grains.

Police Bulldog with 2.2" Barrel
4.2 grains Red Dot - average 812 low 758
powder forward 831, 772, 758
powder rearward 829, 838, 847

Police Undercover with 1 7/8" Barrel
5.0 grains Unique - average 802 low 753
powder forward 796, 813, 753, 793, 767, 848, 867, 777
powder rearward 804 775 812 864 825 804 804 844

Police Undercover with 1 7/8" Barrel
5.4 grains BE-86 - average 808 low 768
powder forward 812 800 780 798 768
powder rearward 819 825 805 826 847

I found it very interesting to see the 5.0 grains Unique load perform so similarly to the Remington FBI load, since that load has been recommended about a million times on this discussion forum.

I also found it interesting that BE-86 did so well. (Dare I say better than Unique?) It is relatively new, and not many of us have much experience with it.

Hopefully this will be a good addition to the knowledge base. Anyone else want to post your data here in this thread?

Thanks.

LBS

[Outpost75]

What is the cylinder gap of your revolver? Would be very useful to put data in perspective.

The 800 fps figure is about right for a revolver at mean assembly tolerance at 0.006" cylinder gap.

My 2" Ruger SP101 with 0.003" cylinder gap and .38 Special chambering does about 850 fps. You loose about 10-15 fps by firing .38 Special in a .357 chamber and another 10 fps for each 0.001" increase in cylinder gap.

[Low Budget Shooter]

Sorry, the 1 7/8" gun went off to my sister last year, and I never measured it. I've been meaning to check the other guns, maybe I could do that this weekend.

[35remington]

In my own "Powder Forward" testing I make sure the powder is forward for each shot by orienting revolver for said shot. With powder rearward 4.7 Unique which is the top end of the standard pressure range I get 800 fps/158 SWC and around 720 fps powder forward in a Smith 638. 5.3 Power Pistol gets about 840/750.

Universal is less consistent than either of the above and in my opinion is one of the most position sensitive powders extant. It is horrible in the 32 Long as well.

For ballistic consistency reasons when a solid bullet is used I am a strong proponent of wadcutters in short barrel 38s.

[35remington]

Gap of the above revolver is 0.006" with rearward pressure on the cylinder at time of measurement. 5.0 Unique does around 840 powder rearward with a 158.

[bouncer50]

I though the FBI load was +P+ ?

[Larry Gibson]

I though the FBI load was +P+ ?

It is supposed to be. At least the old Winchester was/is that I previously mentioned. I use a solid 358477 or a HP'd 358156 cast of 40-1 over 5.4 gr Unique to duplicate both velocity and pressure of the Winchester +P FBI load.


Larry Gibson

[Low Budget Shooter]

Larry, you have reported that the Winchester load used to be 150 grains. Now it is 158 grains. Do you know when they changed it?

[sawinredneck]

As this intrigues me, and I have a .357 snubbie, I wanted to do some digging.
It seems the late '90's early 2000's Remington downloaded the round dropping 100fps, 800 vs the original 900fps they were loaded at. I grew up reading about the "treasury load", research has shown me the two loads were the same, just each took on a life of its own.
Now, Buffalo Bore makes its version of the "FBI" load, in true Buffalo Bore fashion! It's a +P+ load, 158grn SWCHP at, a claimed, 1,100fps, out of 2" barreled revolvers. That's pretty interesting to me!
There are others that seem to think the "treasury load" was a 135grn SWCHP, but I can't find anything other than speculation on that. I always remember reading it was also a 158grn slug.
Then everything ends up in an argument about how much better the newer more better rounds are than either of these. But we want to cast so we don't give a rip about that fight!
Anyway, interesting thread, I hope to learn more and may start a new thread with a different twist on it.

[FergusonTO35]

Revolvers seem to suffer from more velocity robbing quirks than other guns. In addition to barrel cylinder gap there is bore and throat size, individual chamber dimensions, and end shake, not to mention the unfortunate fact that even many name brand revolvers today come with huge tool marks in the forcing cone and/or look like they were rifled with a rat tail file. Until you chrono a specific load through a specific gun you really don't know.

For example, 3.4 grains Bullseye/Lee 358-150-SWC/Federal primer is an accurate easy shooting load I have been using for years. I call it the "FBI lite" load, it clocks around 825 fps out of my 1967 S&W 10-5 with 4" barrel. This revolver is unusually tight in just about every way and has an honest .0015 or barrel-cylinder gap. The bore is nice and shiny too. Exact same load loses almost 100 fps out of my much newer 10-10 which hasn't been fired much at all. Unfortunately, this one has .010 barrel-cylinder gap and the bore is a bit rough. In fact, the chrono number for this load in the 10-10 and my 637 with it's stumpy 1-7/8" tube and .006 gap are nearly identical.

[Outpost75]

I though the FBI load was +P+ ?

XD38SPD lead bullet load was +P, not +P+, but measured using the older radial copper system.

+P+ LE loads are about 15% over industry +P standard. Once the industry went over to piezoelectric pressure measurement it may have been necessary to go +P+ to meet the velocity specification.

The current specification sheet for X38SPD on the Winchester Law Enforcement page specifies velocity using a solid test barrel, rather than the vented barrel which in was the contract requirements back in the 1980s.

The FBI firearms unit at Quantico tested experimentally some 147 and 158-grain JHP +P+ loads from the various manufacturers, but none of these were officially adopted, so far as I know. However, samples were sent out to field offices for evaluation and comment. This ancient history from the time Urey Patrick and John Hall were pushing for the "10mm Lite..."

[Wayne Dobbs]

They did adopt a Federal 147 +P (or possibly +P+) load in .38 Special for a while in the late 1980s. I recall seeing it issued to agents at the Dallas office of the FBI while I was seconded there on an Org Crime Task Force. The autopistols started being adopted wholesale about that time and rendered the .38 ammo issue largely moot.

[Outpost75]

They did adopt a Federal 147 +P (or possibly +P+) load in .38 Special for a while in the late 1980s. I recall seeing it issued to agents at the Dallas office of the FBI while I was seconded there on an Org Crime Task Force. The autopistols started being adopted wholesale about that time and rendered the .38 ammo issue largely moot.

I was told that all of the leftover test quantities of .38 Special went to the four FOs in Texas, so Houston, San Antonio, and El Paso probably got some as well. Phoenix, AZ may have also gotten some.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, you have reported that the Winchester load used to be 150 grains. Now it is 158 grains. Do you know when they changed it?

If you base this assumption on the post above yours where I give what I "duplicate" the load with the assumption is incorrect. The Old Winchester LSWC +P "FBI" load used to be a 158 gr bullet. My 358477 mould with 40-1 alloy casts out at 154 gr and they weigh 155 +/- lubed. The 358156 casts them of 40-1 alloy right at 160 gr and they weigh GC'd and lubed, after HPing right at 157 gr +/-. Close enough for government work.......

Here again is a picture of a box of the old Winchester +P "FBI" load.

198236

Obviously they are 158 gr.

Larry Gibson

[tazman]

Does it really matter if the boolit is 158 grains?
I would think any boolit near that weight(145-170) with a suitable nose shape and appropriate BHN would work when push at top speed. My point is, I don't think there is anything magical about 158 grains.
It just happens to be a commonly available weight. If there is something about that I am missing, please educate me.

[sawinredneck]

Does it really matter if the boolit is 158 grains?
I would think any boolit near that weight(145-170) with a suitable nose shape and appropriate BHN would work when push at top speed. My point is, I don't think there is anything magical about 158 grains.
It just happens to be a commonly available weight. If there is something about that I am missing, please educate me.
I think it was a weight plus velocity equation that just worked? Why was the .357mag 125grn JHP rated as the highest man stopper available, 96% one shot stops? The 9mm has tried for years to copy that load, but can't match it, why? Kinda like the .45acp, 185grn FMJ or 235grain JHP (the "flying ashtray), both showed pretty much the same percentage of one shot stops, 89% as I recall.
Some things just work right from the get go.

[jmort]

What does the Roman Catholic Church or 10mm Glocks have to do with the FBI Load???

[9.3X62AL]

Has to do with fixation upon formulae and calculus over pragmatism and practice. I'm sorry that wasn't clear. The FBI Load in 38 Special works well.

[sawinredneck]

What does the Roman Catholic Church or 10mm Glocks have to do with the FBI Load???

Nothing, he asked a question and I tried to explain there's just no honest answer to it!
That bullet, at that velocity just worked.

[Forrest r]

Actually it's pretty hard not to find a 800fps/snub nosed 38spl p+ load with most 150gr/160gr lead hp's.

I'm sure ww made several different versions of their 158gr lead hp's for their x38spd ammo. Not sure what year these came from.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/82aebed3-109c-4e9d-9b09-2d36e8fb01c3_zpsnrgnkv9f.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/82aebed3-109c-4e9d-9b09-2d36e8fb01c3_zpsnrgnkv9f.jpg.html)

Their current bullet has 3 cannalure drive bands.
http://www.winchester.com/PRODUCTS/HANDGUN-AMMUNITION/Performance/Super-X-handgun/Pages/X38SPD.aspx

Did a little testing with 5 different powders and 10 different bullets using a 2" bbl'd snub nosed revolver testing 38spl p+ loads. I did 10-shot strings with each bullet and added all the 10-shot strings/10-bullets together to get an idea of what to expect from a given power. The end result was a 100-shot string.

4.4gr of bullseye ='s 801fps @
5.5gr of unique ='s 833fps @
5.7gr of be-86 ='s 845fps @
11gr of 2400 ='s 882fps @
6.2gr of power pistol ='s 887fps @

Some of the swc used in the test.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/8f17c72e-d31b-49bf-a313-8cd55cc594b6_zpslnvxx4hx.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/8f17c72e-d31b-49bf-a313-8cd55cc594b6_zpslnvxx4hx.jpg.html)

Not pictured above used in the test was the thompson design 358156 hp and a 358431 hb version of the lyman 358429 bullet that I hp'd using a forster hp tool.

Out of those 5 38spl p+ loads/powders tested power pistol was the least position sensitive, the worst was unique. And for the recorn I don't care, I'll still like to use unique in the 38spl's, 45acp's. It's an excellent powder in the 44spl's and 1 of my favorite powders in the 9mm's.

[35remington]

I seem to do pretty well, velocitywise, with the non Plus P loads in 38 such that when controllability in repeat fire is factored in with the light weight and shortish grip present in my 638, that's where I figure I should be at.

Ed Harris's "full charge wadcutter" suggestion of 3.5 Bullseye does around 780 with the Lee tumble lube wadcutter, with the same amount of Titegroup going maybe 5 to 10 fps faster.

It takes a couple of tenths more of Herco to equal whatever Unique does. With Alliant's non plus P suggestions as currently posted Power Pistol outruns the rest of the pack in both Plus P and non Plus P loadings.

Have not tried any BE 86 yet. Understand it may give similar performance to PP with somewhat less blast.

In terms of giving acceptably low velocity variation from powder position variation Titegroup does work well as long as bullet seating depth is not much shallower than a 158 provides. The top end speeds are somewhat lower, though, and Plus P loads are necessary to get velocities others like Power Pistol attain at standard pressures. If ballistic consistency is desirable that may be the way to go for low volume shooting use.

For any and all practice I see my 638 as a "standard pressure only" gun, both in terms of comfort for long practice sessions as well as "easy on the gun." Yeah, it is plus P rated, but sometimes less is more.

[Low Budget Shooter]

Mr. Gibson,

thanks for clearing that up about the 158 grain bullet. When I wrote that you previously said it was 150 grains, I was referencing these two old posts of yours:

1) "The "FBI 38 SPL load" is a +P load. This a 150 gr LSWC. I have pulled several Winchester bullets and they are dead soft at 5.5 -6 BHN."
at this link: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?140081-38-SPL-158-Grain-LSWCHP-quot-FBI-Load-quot-Hardness

2) "Winchester and Federals 150 gr HP Lead "FBI" load"
at this link: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?93788-Suggestion-for-38-Special-Snubnose-158-LSWC-HP/page3

Reading those two posts is why I thought that the Winchester FBI load used to be 150 grains instead of 158 grains. Thanks for clearing that up.

I am very grateful to you and all of the more experienced shooters for all this good information.

[Low Budget Shooter]

Forrest, I sure have enjoyed consulting that whole body of data you posted elsewhere, of which you have posted the summary here. One of the things your big data dump shows is that the big guys could improve the FBI Load so that it works more consistently, giving not an average of 800 fps, but a low of 800 fps and average of more like 850 fps. I wonder why they don't.

[Wayne Dobbs]

My best recollections of the FBI load was how well it worked in operational shootings of slow learners. You generally got full penetration, with a bullet in the clothing or just under the hide on the far side of the shootee and a bullet expanded to ~0.55 - 0.60. This was from 4" guns. From a 2" gun, there was less expansion, but the same general good results. It wasn't sexy and it didn't appeal to most of the gun writers of the day, but it was about as good as it got in a .38 Special.

[35remington]

I presume they have not worked to change the FBI load substantially because it is reported to work just fine just as they are doing it now. I suspect a speed increase would cause other problems regarded as lowering the overall desirability of the cartridge/bullet combo. That, combined with a pressure level that gets nobody in trouble is likely the reason why.

[Outpost75]

Chronograph data from .38 Special revolvers having 2" and 4" barrels, both guns having identical cylinder gap of 0.005",

.38 Special chronograph data, S&W Model 15, 4” REVOLVER, 0.005” cylinder gap 6-22-93.
Federal 125 Nyclad HP 852 fps, 25 Sd
Remington 148 HBWC 747 fps, 6 Sd
Winchester 148 HBWC 742 fps, 13 Sd
WCC87 Ball M41 130-gr. FMJ 748 fps, 21 Sd
Winchester Q4070 110-grain JHP +P+ LE 1062 fps, 39 Sd
Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP +P 920 fps 21 Sd
Winchester Q4196 158-gr. LRN 793 fps, 10 Sd
Federal 158 LRN 808 fps, 16 Sd
Federal 158 LHP+L 38G 883 fps, 16 Sd
Federal HydaShok 147-gr. JHP +P+LE 965 fps, 33 Sd

.38 Special chronograph data, Colt Detective Special 2” REVOLVER, 0.005” cylinder gap 6-22-93
Federal 125-gr. Nyclad SWCHP 772 fps, 33 Sd
Federal HydraShok 147-gr. JHP+P+ LE 920 fps, 6 Sd
Remington 148-gr. HBWC 702 fps, 12 Sd
Winchester 110-gr. Silvertip HP 864 fps, 28 Sd
Winchester 125-gr. Silvertip +P 827 fps, 10 Sd
Winchester 148-gr. HBWC 697 fps, 18 Sd
Winchester Q4196 158-gr. LRN 728 fps, 24c Sd
Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP +P 831 fps, 10 Sd
WCC87 Ball M41 130-gr. FMJ 718 fps, 31 Sd

[Low Budget Shooter]

Outpost, thanks for that trove of data!

[Low Budget Shooter]

On a previous thread, I posted the theory that Winchester must have significantly reduced the velocity on its FBI Load, maybe sometime before the FBI tests in 1989. I then received much fire from the members :) What Outpost75 just posted shows that same thing.

Before anyone opens fire on me again, please look twice at this data. The Federal FBI load is very close to the same, just a little faster. The wadcutter loads are at most 25 fps different, some of them higher. But the Winchester FBI load velocities for both the 2" and the 4" guns are 80 fps lower.

Load 1993 Data 2017 Data 2014 Data

Win FBI 2" 831 fps 750 fps 741 fps
Win FBI 4" 920 fps 839 fps
Fed FBI 4" 883 fps 892 fps
Win WC 2" 697 fps 709 fps
Win WC 4" 742 fps 764 fps
Rem WC 2" 702 fps 677 fps

1993 data is from Outpost75's post above.
2017 data is from LuckyGunner
2014 data is from Pocket Guns and Gear

Please note that all of the 1993 velocities are close to the 2017 velocities EXCEPT the Winchester FBI load. The 2017 velocity is much lower than the 1993 velocity. Please note that I grabbed another test, from 2014, of the same load, which also shows this significantly lower velocity.

Okay, so when did Winchester lower the charge in its FBI load?

Outpost75, was that ammo several years old when tested in 1993, or new production?




Winchester SWCHP +P

Pocket Guns and Gear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y26O3W_Ke2g
Ruger LCR 1 7/8"
733, 758, 733, 737, 745 average 741

Lucky Gunner http://www.luckygunner.com/38-special-p-158-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-hp-winchester-super-x-50-rounds#geltest
Kimber K6s 2"
724, 738, 746, 757, 784 average 750

Lucky Gunner http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/wadcutter-ammo-self-defense/
Kimber K6s 2"
Win WC 709
Rem WC 677
Fed WC 659

[Outpost75]

Ammo tested in 1993 was then fresh production. packaged in white box with blue and red printing exactly as Larry pictured.

Winchester did not change the specification VELOCITY with respect to the standard test barrel length, but changed the POWDER loading, which resulted in reduced velocity when fired from the shorter barrels. Change from radial copper to piezoelectric pressure measurement occurred about the same time, which also accounts for some of the discrepancy.

These are the current specs from Winchesters commercial product web site:
http://www.winchester.com/products/handgun-ammunition/Performance/Super-X-handgun/Pages/X38SPD.aspx
Product Symbol: X38SPD
Cartridge: 38 Special +P
Bullet Weight: 158
Muzzle Velocity: 890
Barrel Length: 4.00" Vented
Rounds Per Box: 50
Rounds Per Case: 500
Suggested Use:Personal Protection

The specs. on their LE page list velocity as 1050 fps. from the 7.7" SAAMI SOLID test barrel:
http://winchesterle.com/Lists%2FCatalogAmmo%2FAttachments%2F274%2FX38SPD.p df

Symbol: X38SPD – Winchester Super-X Handgun
Shellcase: 38 Special +P nickel plated brass shellcase with cap lacquer
Bullet: 158 grain Semi Wad Cutter HP
Powder Type: Clean burning
Primer: Winchester non-corrosive primer, boxer type
Accuracy: Product Mean of 4.0 inches Extreme Spread, 5 shot targets at 50 yards from a SAAMI test barrel
Velocity: 1050 ft/sec nominal at 15 ft, Fired in a 7.71 inch SAAMI test barrel
Energy: 386 ft-lb nominal at 15ft, Fired in a 7.71 inch standard SAAMI test barrel
Pressure: 20,000 psi maximum average
Waterproofing: Lacquer applied to primer annulus

[Low Budget Shooter]

Thanks again for all the info. I don't know why anyone goes to college anymore. A person can learn enough from you guys to keep him busy for years! I think some of you all have more firearms knowledge in your pinky than I have in my head.