Golgotha--what skull?

[Ickisrulz]

Golgotha or Calvary means “The Skull.” Scholars and archeologists do not agree on the location of this spot where Jesus was executed. Why was this area named “The Skull?” Three reasons have been suggested.

1. The area was a public place of execution and skulls were strewn about. It is doubtful the Jews would have allowed this (they did have a say).

2. One proposed location structurally resembles a skull. This is a popular view, but fairly modern. Much of the area’s appearance to a skull today was caused by excavations completed in the past couple hundred years.

3. The pre-Christian belief that the skull of Adam, the first man, was buried at this location. This is the oldest of the three traditions.

If number 3 is correct, imagine the significance of the Last Adam offering his sacrifice at the very location where the First Adam was buried.

[Char-Gar]

I have been to Jerusalem a number of times and have seen "Gordon's Calvary" from the place he spotted it i.e. on top of the old Spofford Hospital. I have never been able to make out the skull features that Gordon did.

It is known that the Roman's crucified people outside the city gate beside the road where people going and coming into the city would see the suffering people and draw a lesson from that. This being the case, this would most likely be where Jesus was crucified. There is a bus station over than spot now.

Frankly, I don't have a clue why that areas was called the place of the skull. I don't think anybody else does either. People just don't seem to be able to deal with historical ambiguity, they must come up with answer whether it has any basis or not.

The "Holy Land" is rife with legends and traditions about certain spots and areas and none should be taken very seriously. The only Christian holy site that I would give an iron clad guarantee to be original is the cave beneath the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. The church of Holy Sculpture in Jerusalem is a pretty good bet to be the real deal, but don't bet more than you can afford to loose.

The Garden Tomb that Gordon excavated using Turkish POWs is a good example of a tomb of that era, but to about a 99.9% certainty is not the tomb of Jesus. It was filled with dirt when found an excavated and in the material that came out of it were clay lamps from the period of David, which predates Jesus by centuries. This flies in the face of the NT information that this was a new tomb in which nobody has ever been laid.

The Garden Tomb is a very nice spot to sit and meditate and from the back of the site you can look down at the bus station mentioned above.

The Garden Tomb is operated by a bunch of Brits known as The Garden Tomb Society. They used to assert that it was the tomb of Jesus, but when the information about the lamps from the Davidic period was made public, they had to back off that. It was pretty much of an archaeological scandal when they were outed on that point. My last time there, they said it was a tomb "like" the one where Jesus was buried.

[NoAngel]

David beheaded Goliath and took his head back to Jerusalem as a trophy. He buried it right outside of town.

Goliath of Gath.......Golgotha? Christ was crucified on the burial spot of Goliath's head. Hence the name, "Place of the skull"

[Ickisrulz]

David beheaded Goliath and took his head back to Jerusalem as a trophy. He buried it right outside of town.

Goliath of Gath.......Golgotha? Christ was crucified on the burial spot of Goliath's head. Hence the name, "Place of the skull"

Maybe. But Goliath would not be a Hebrew name like Golgotha. Just because they sound alike to us doesn't mean they are related. Do you have any source that shows the Jews believed Golgotha to be where David buried Goliath's head?

[NoAngel]

Maybe. But Goliath would not be a Hebrew name like Golgotha. Just because they sound alike to us doesn't mean they are related. Do you have any source that shows the Jews believed Golgotha to be where David buried Goliath's head?


No I can't substantiate that. I just saw Perry Stone talking about it once. Sounds very plausible to me.

Here's the video if you're inclined to watch the guy talk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9cLt9-GqNM

[Char-Gar]

The Christian world is filled with preachers, presenters, teachers and such, advancing theories, notions, speculation and wild *** guesses passed off as truth. Most want money to do it.

[NoAngel]

Being a minister is a very lucrative job. John Hagee has made millions doing it.

....just can't be like ole Jimmy and get busted with your pants around your ankles. What a self righteous clown.

[Char-Gar]

Being a minister is a very lucrative job. John Hagee has made millions doing it.

....just can't be like ole Jimmy and get busted with your pants around your ankles. What a self righteous clown.

I spent 37 years as a United Methodist Pastor and the most I ever made was $50K a year. So not all "ministers" have lucrative jobs.

There religious world is filled with charlatans and hucksters. They figure out what want want to hear and believe and they give it to them, for a price, always for a price.

L. Ron Hubbard figured out that religion payed more than science fiction writing, so he invented a whole religious out of the whole cloth and attracted hundreds of thousand of people who give him everything they had and let him rule every aspect of their lives. These people infest cable TV and now U-Tube taking advantage of people. Yet none of them ever visited you in a hospital or held you hand while you died.

P.T. Barnum once said; "You will never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.". When it comes to religion he was certainly right.

Here is how it works. If you can offer answers to things that have no answer, then people will trust other answers you give and the demands you make. It is all part of a long con. Appear to have the answers people want and you can have your way with them.

BTW: The Perry fellow in your link, is one seriously loopy fellow with some off the wall theories advanced as "teaching" and "truth". You will note he started by dismissing somebody else's loopy theory (human women screwing snakes), so he could clear the way for his own loopy theory (human women screwing angels). I would like to see his 2016 1040.

Religious charlatans, con artists and hucksters give real "ministers" a bad name. I detest them all.

[Blackwater]

Angel, if you're so negative, why are you even here? Are you a believer, or not?

And as for all these questions, they're interesting and inevitable, I guess, but mostly, I'm with Char-Gar, and find these questions to be pleasantly relative diversions, when we're tired, and our brains have just given out, and need a rest. 2,000 years of weather can and does change a terrain VERY seriously, so imagining things that "might have been" does have a place, but it's in the realm of speculation and investigation, and not a matter for true theology. At least that's MY opinion.

What MATTERS most is whether in fact God and Christ and the Holy Spirit DO indeed exist, and how they work, and how can we get to know and understand them to the greatest degree possible? THESE are the true and rightful questions for real theology, at least in MHO.

But who can resist, perhaps due to our simple innate curiousity, asking these and other questions? I can't. Thanks, Ick, for a great post, and for all who've offered other ideas and possibilities, both on the positive and negative sides of the issues. The more we know, and have considered, the more fully we can be filled with the things that are holy and worth while. Even a minor diversion from true theology into the more innocuous questions CAN be beneficial. Again, that's MHO, at least.

Any time we're searching for clues to understanding and "proving" the Bible, we're serving something good. I can't see any other result, unless it be when distaste for holy things enters in to the discussion. I love this sort of discussion. It covers things that I'm not very well versed in, and therefore, I find them interesting, even if I don't take them all that seriously. Sometimes, curiosity is its own reason for considering things. We never know what might result from that curiosity and investigation! Or what discoveries and parallels might be exposed?

Ever since mankind first appeared, he has been asking questions of all sorts, and sometimes, little questions can sometimes result in larger revelations. It's our nature to inquire and to investigate and consider. Any time we're doing that, we're beeing very, very human, and we can't be involved in any sort of evil, providing only that our investigating and considering aren't due to unholy motives.

[NoAngel]

You'll get no arguments from me CharGar. Religion is the greatest lie ever told.
I believe there's a God but I think he skips church and goes fishing like a lot of us.
Funny, I can feel closer to him with pole and peace and quiet than some bible thumper giving me hell and brimstone at the top of his lungs.

That Perry fella's theory makes as much sense as anyone else's guess though and that's all it is...a guess.

[NoAngel]

Angel, if you're so negative, why are you even here? Are you a believer, or not?

And as for all these questions, they're interesting and inevitable, I guess, but mostly, I'm with Char-Gar, and find these questions to be pleasantly relative diversions, when we're tired, and our brains have just given out, and need a rest. 2,000 years of weather can and does change a terrain VERY seriously, so imagining things that "might have been" does have a place, but it's in the realm of speculation and investigation, and not a matter for true theology. At least that's MY opinion.

What MATTERS most is whether in fact God and Christ and the Holy Spirit DO indeed exist, and how they work, and how can we get to know and understand them to the greatest degree possible? THESE are the true and rightful questions for real theology, at least in MHO.

But who can resist, perhaps due to our simple innate curiousity, asking these and other questions? I can't. Thanks, Ick, for a great post, and for all who've offered other ideas and possibilities, both on the positive and negative sides of the issues. The more we know, and have considered, the more fully we can be filled with the things that are holy and worth while. Even a minor diversion from true theology into the more innocuous questions CAN be beneficial. Again, that's MHO, at least.

Any time we're searching for clues to understanding and "proving" the Bible, we're serving something good. I can't see any other result, unless it be when distaste for holy things enters in to the discussion. I love this sort of discussion. It covers things that I'm not very well versed in, and therefore, I find them interesting, even if I don't take them all that seriously. Sometimes, curiosity is its own reason for considering things. We never know what might result from that curiosity and investigation! Or what discoveries and parallels might be exposed?

There is a God. Religion is a bit of a joke to me though. God didn't invent religion or it's traditions.

As for proving the Bible. That's a bit of a conundrum. If one has faith and faith is evidence of things not seen then why the longing desire for physical evidence? Seems to me if a person needs physical evidence to believe then they never will and will forever be agnostic. God refuses to show his self physically no matter how many times he's asked. When he decides to finally do so I reckon it'll be a little too late to worry about it. Salvation has an expiration date.

[Char-Gar]

You'll get no arguments from me CharGar. Religion is the greatest lie ever told.
I believe there's a God but I think he skips church and goes fishing like a lot of us.
Funny, I can feel closer to him with pole and peace and quiet than some bible thumper giving me hell and brimstone at the top of his lungs.

That Perry fella's theory makes as much sense as anyone else's guess though and that's all it is...a guess.

Well we are at a point of divergence. There are religious con-men aplenty, but that in no way means that the Christian faith is a lie. I would hate to think I spent my working life loving,caring for and teaching people for a lie.

I will admit, that in one point, up until my late 20's, I thought as you think. I was raised in a church, but left as soon as I could say no and make it stick.

However at age 28, I decided to do a serious investigation into the truth or non-truth of the Christian faith. The matter was to important to dismiss/reject without any serious adult independent study. Being a lawyer, I had to intellectual and research skill to study and decide the matter for myself.

To make a long story short, after an open and honest search in the privacy of my home, Jesus walked off the pages of the Bible and other books into my life. I came to know and experience him, in a very personal way. That event changed my entire way of thinking and everything began to fall into place. I was able to see and understand what I had heretofore rejected.

I am not blind to the limitations and humanness of organized churches. But even in the midst of all that humanness and human mess, Jesus can be found working in human hearts and lives. You don't throw out a wonderful meal, because you don't like the color or shape of the china plate.

Search with an open mind and open heart and you are apt to find some truly wonderful things waiting for you. Well, sometimes we don't have to search, we just have to be open, stand still and we will be found.

[NoAngel]

Jesus was just Jesus. Religion is an invention of man. He said YOU are the church. I get the feeling he wasn't a big fan of organized religion either.

Jesus was dirty. Dirty hands and feet. Never read about him clapping his hands in a 3 piece suit. He hung with the beggars and lower wrung of society because that's who he was.

Your church may be different. I hope so. But all the ones I've been in are the same. Talk. That's it.
Faith without works is dead.
Jesus was a cool guy because was a doer. Churches in this area do for themselves. A lot of people can be fed for the price of a big fancy church.
Jesus strikes me a guy who doesn't really care about that. He's just pleased to bless a military surplus tent full of casually dressed people.

Rare is the church that never asks you for something but gives away everything.

[Ickisrulz]

Jesus was dirty. Dirty hands and feet. Never read about him clapping his hands in a 3 piece suit. He hung with the beggars and lower wrung of society because that's who he was.

Just so you know, Jesus was not poor. His disciples were not poor. If we were using today's labels, they would have been considered middle class or even upper middle class (many disciples were business owners). Jesus spent time with both the rich and the poor. Many of Jesus' rich friends helped support him and his disciples during his years of ministry since they were not working traditional income generating jobs.

[Char-Gar]

Jesus was just Jesus. Religion is an invention of man. He said YOU are the church. I get the feeling he wasn't a big fan of organized religion either.

Jesus was dirty. Dirty hands and feet. Never read about him clapping his hands in a 3 piece suit. He hung with the beggars and lower wrung of society because that's who he was.

Your church may be different. I hope so. But all the ones I've been in are the same. Talk. That's it.
Faith without works is dead.
Jesus was a cool guy because was a doer. Churches in this area do for themselves. A lot of people can be fed for the price of a big fancy church.
Jesus strikes me a guy who doesn't really care about that. He's just pleased to bless a military surplus tent full of casually dressed people.

Rare is the church that never asks you for something but gives away everything.

For me and my wife, a local congregations is a part of life we could not do without. The people of faith were there with us and for us when we lost a son, when we lost parents and loved ones and when we struggle with the issues of old age. How people live without such Christian support is beyond my understanding. I guess they can do without what they have never had. I would rather be without water, air or food, than without a church family.

[NoAngel]

Never said he was poor. Just pointing out that the man never scoffed at getting his hands dirty or his brow sweaty.
Any working man has gotta respect that. He could have come and made the gods of Egypt look like welfare recipients had chosen to do so.

I'd pay money to see some of these local preachers get down and wash the feet of some skid row bum. The carpenter would have done it. The church of Christ across the street from me? You'd do good if they gave him a rag to do it himself.

[Ickisrulz]

Never said he was poor. Just pointing out that the man never scoffed at getting his hands dirty or his brow sweaty.
Any working man has gotta respect that. He could have come and made the gods of Egypt look like welfare recipients had chosen to do so.

I'd pay money to see some of these local preachers get down and wash the feet of some skid row bum. The carpenter would have done it. The church of Christ across the street from me? You'd do good if they gave him a rag to do it himself.

You said he was the lower rung of society: "He hung with the beggars and lower wrung of society because that's who he was." Isn't that the poor?

[NoAngel]

Well, forgive me. It's not easy for the uneducated to make clear points on a keyboard. I didn't mean to imply he WAS bottom of the barrel but that it was not beneath him to be kind to anyone of any stature. Humility at it's zenith. He didn't look down on anyone. That's just the kinda guy he was. Sorry for the confusion on that one.

[308Jeff]

There is a God. Religion is a bit of a joke to me though. God didn't invent religion or it's traditions.

As for proving the Bible. That's a bit of a conundrum. If one has faith and faith is evidence of things not seen then why the longing desire for physical evidence? Seems to me if a person needs physical evidence to believe then they never will and will forever be agnostic. God refuses to show his self physically no matter how many times he's asked. When he decides to finally do so I reckon it'll be a little too late to worry about it. Salvation has an expiration date.

I've gotta say, I agree with the second paragraph.

I don't believe we will ever see any physical evidence or proof of God's existence, until it's too late. That is the whole intention and design behind faith. You simply have to believe. And this is not hard for me to do. Anytime I pause to look at the world around me, the miracle of life, everything we have been given, it's not difficult to see these things didn't happen on their own.

God is great, and I'm thankful every day that he allows us to continue to exist... In spite of how wicked and self-serving we've become.

[Ickisrulz]

Well, forgive me. It's not easy for the uneducated to make clear points on a keyboard. I didn't mean to imply he WAS bottom of the barrel but that it was not beneath him to be kind to anyone of any stature. Humility at it's zenith. He didn't look down on anyone. That's just the kinda guy he was. Sorry for the confusion on that one.

I understand now.

[Boaz]

Jesus Christ was not a 'guy' , he was the son of GOD .

[Blackwater]

Angel, if you look down on a church, it COULD be because you don't understand them, really, couldn't it? It's so easy for any of us to disparage what we don't truly understand. Nothing's really more common. And it even results, unfortunately, in various sects of Christianity arguing with other sects, and that is NOT what Christ intended for his people! But we're human, and our human qualities often overcome the great instruction and advice He left for us.

And if you're looking for a "perfect" church before you'll join it, you probably have a very long and very frustrating search ahead of you. But most just get "lazy" and just ditch "organized religion" as a whole, without really understanding what a church really is. In the end, it's really just a bunch of flawed but redeemed sinners, trying to wend their way through to understanding our God and His Son, despite all the confusion and haughty disparagements and accusations that so assault anyone or any group who truly believe these days. If you accept the fact that you, me and all the rest of us, are sinners, and that some of us are redeemed and some not, then things should start to make a little better sense for you.

And if you will remember, Christ himself admonished us to gather together regularly for worship and fellowship. Worship's purpose is obvious and quite appropriate and necessary. The fellowship part is where we each support each other, and when needed, even prop each other up in our times of stress and need and want. Being a Christian is NOT easy, nor is it always pleasant. But it's always beneficial and really, the most comforting and edifying thing we can know in this realm of existence.

So give it a try, and this time, leave the judgmentalism and haughty attitude outside, and look around, and see all the redeemed, and then consider those who have not allowed themselves to be redeemed. Then figure out which you'd rather be with. If your answer is those who have not allowed themselves to be redeemed, then you didn't do a very good job of observing or thinking or something! And I love fishing, too, and have even gone fishing on some Sundays. But fishing on Sunday has always had a very distinctly different "flavor" to it than on any of the other 6 days of the week. Every time.

Churches aren't "perfect" because we humans haven't yet learned to be "perfect," so with imperfect people making up any and every church, how could a "perfet" church EVER exist? And yet, most believers find most churches to be edifying, stabilizing and illuminating factors in their lives. And all that's required to find this is to simply stop expecting ourselves or or fellow men to be "perfect." It just ain't gonna' happen! But if we can be good enough for God, and for Salvation and Redemption, how can they not be good enough for a fellow sinner who wants to be redeemed?

[NoAngel]

Another view I have on church.
If you don't want to be there....do NOT go.
It is possible to cheat someone out of a blessing they may get from a sermon you don't want to hear. I can remember people commenting to me about falling asleep or one of the million miserable faces a teenager can make while I was sitting in church.
It stands to reason that my actions drew the attention of others and that in turn distracted them from the service.
I am not responsible for other people's actions but I am responsible for mine. Distracting someone else in a place of worship is rude and inconsiderate.
If I attended church tonight I'd probably fall asleep the cycle starts again.

It makes no sense to go somewhere I dont want to be.
I can remember the sabbath day and keep it holy in the middle of the woods just as easy. I'm certainly calmer and more receptive to what's inside.

If that's wrong, add it to the mile long list of stuff I'll have to give an account for.

[Blackwater]

You have a point, but it's also true that seeking answers about God by one's self, solely on the basis of one's own knowledge and opinions and assessments, is a VERY hard row to hoe! It really DOES help, kind'a like that old adage that "two heads are better than one, even if one IS a goat's head!" But you have to make your own decisions for your own reasons in your own time and in your own way. I wish you luck, very, very seriously. But don't be surprised later if you wind up saying, "I wish I'd gone to church more, in spite of all its flaws." it's just a natural and very human thing to do.

[Pine Baron]

"Search with an open mind and open heart and you are apt to find some truly wonderful things waiting for you. Well, sometimes we don't have to search, we just have to be open, stand still and we will be found."

And there you have it. Thank you Char-gar.

[Char-Gar]

Jesus Christ was not a 'guy' , he was the son of GOD .

Christian tradition tells us that;

1. Jesus was fully human, tempted at every point as we are yet without sin.
2. Jesus was also fully divine.


This is a very complex subject, and one that the church has struggled with for two thousand years. I see no conflict with seeing Jesus as "a guy" and also as the "Son of God" as long as folks understand the dual nature of the man we call Jesus. We miss the boat, when we see Jesus as human only or divine only.

[Char-Gar]

Another view I have on church.
If you don't want to be there....do NOT go.
It is possible to cheat someone out of a blessing they may get from a sermon you don't want to hear. I can remember people commenting to me about falling asleep or one of the million miserable faces a teenager can make while I was sitting in church.
It stands to reason that my actions drew the attention of others and that in turn distracted them from the service.

I am not responsible for other people's actions but I am responsible for mine. Distracting someone else in a place of worship is rude and inconsiderate.
If I attended church tonight I'd probably fall asleep the cycle starts again.

It makes no sense to go somewhere I dont want to be.
I can remember the sabbath day and keep it holy in the middle of the woods just as easy. I'm certainly calmer and more receptive to what's inside.

If that's wrong, add it to the mile long list of stuff I'll have to give an account for.

I have no issue with your decision not to attend a church. You have enough knowledge to make an informed decision. As we all do, each decision brings either results or consequences.

[Thundarstick]

Just what is Church? Is it the body of believers? If so, what responsibilities does this body have? Is it an institutional traditional thing made up of man?
I will contend that what most of us know as church would be completely foreign to the Christians in the New Testament.
Personally I like the fellowship of my brothers and sisters, and enjoy worshiping the creator and savior with them. Unfortunately I'm of the opinion that sitting through a sermon is mostly a waste of time! I get much more from Bible study classes and open discussion on how I should strive to live.

[Ickisrulz]

Just what is Church? Is it the body of believers? If so, what responsibilities does this body have? Is it an institutional traditional thing made up of man?
I will contend that what most of us know as church would be completely foreign to the Christians in the New Testament.
Personally I like the fellowship of my brothers and sisters, and enjoy worshiping the creator and savior with them. Unfortunately I'm of the opinion that sitting through a sermon is mostly a waste of time! I get much more from Bible study classes and open discussion on how I should strive to live.

The church service as we know it today is a construct of man. The New Testament only tells us:

"And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching." Hebrews 10:24-25

A church group is a convenient place to meet with other believers. If you have another avenue that you feel comfortable with then there is no issue at least the way I understand it.

We live in different times than the people of the Bible. Those people didn't have their own copies of the Scriptures and the only time they could "read" the Bible is when it was read in an assembly. Today Bibles are plentiful. Not only that, we have endless supply of scholarly and devotional material that we can read on our own. If the only time someone is being taught is at church, they are not taking advantage of modern times.

Personally, I really don't like attending church services myself. I am frequently bored and usually don't fit in. I know I am not the norm.

[Blackwater]

Christian tradition tells us that;

1. Jesus was fully human, tempted at every point as we are yet without sin.
2. Jesus was also fully divine.


This is a very complex subject, and one that the church has struggled with for two thousand years. I see no conflict with seeing Jesus as "a guy" and also as the "Son of God" as long as folks understand the dual nature of the man we call Jesus. We miss the boat, when we see Jesus as human only or divine only.

Indeed, this was quite puzzling to me for many years. I simply didn't understand HOW this was so, though I understood it MUST be true! But then, I thought that I'm a son, a father, a grandfather, a boss, an underling, and so many other things, all rolled into one. And I also thought that there's no reason something physical can't be divine as well. So finally, it all made sense to me. And now, I see no problem at all with something being both finite and infinite as well. FWIW? I forget where I learned this, but it was in someone's reading. Just can't recall exactly where, but I always concentrate on the content of what I read, rather than the sourse, so .... that kind'a helps my CRS disease grow, I guess?

[Blackwater]

Just what is Church? Is it the body of believers? If so, what responsibilities does this body have? Is it an institutional traditional thing made up of man?
I will contend that what most of us know as church would be completely foreign to the Christians in the New Testament.
Personally I like the fellowship of my brothers and sisters, and enjoy worshiping the creator and savior with them. Unfortunately I'm of the opinion that sitting through a sermon is mostly a waste of time! I get much more from Bible study classes and open discussion on how I should strive to live.

You know, Tstick, I think I understand what you mean. I know there are some in most churches who go and act pious on Sunday, and then during the week, seem to forget or leave unused what they learn each Sunday. I've been a member of my church for 55 years, and sermons just don't seem to regularly captivate me like they once did. I'm more wanting to get out and DO something, than I want to listen to a sermon that I've probably heard a hundred times before. But some sermons are really good! And I think most of us go so we don't miss those. We sit through the ones aimed at the unsaved or the kids, or other particular groups, out of respect, and because we just might learn something that might help us in dealing with that particular segment of people that surround us, and with whom we have contact on a regular basis.

But mostly, attending church is simply an act of compliance and humility, and those are two things that are very valuable to any church or any person in it. So it'll always be a good thing, providing only that the church has a half-decent preacher. After all, I was saved by a "half-decent" preacher, so .... I simply can't declaim even the poorer or less educated ones. Each has something to offer, if we'll just listen, and think on what is said. As a kid, I'd often get off on a mental tangent in my mind, as I thought about some little thing the so-so preacher had said. So a lot of "getting Christianity" is really up to us, internally and very personally. I doubt that even the worst preachers say absolutely nothing worthy of thought and consideration.

But undoubtedly, the wiser and more educated and thoughtful and devout ones DO offer us much more than the lesser ones can. And they tend to have the bigger churches, where things get divided up and become less "personal." Remember the crowds of many thousands Billy Graham used to draw? And the bigger the number of people in a church, the less personal and pervasive each individual becomes. But the more edified he can be, also! It's an ironic, but seemingly inevitable phenomena.

Some churches today seem to be preaching a lot more PC theology than they are actual Biblical theology. One like that was recently started here, and it started big and has grown greatly. Apparently, they've found just the right recipe of mixing PC and the Bible?

One of our Supreme Court Justices said of pornography, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it." I suspect that the simple manner in which a new person is approached when attending a new church is a pretty good indicator of whether that person will be happy there or not. But church isn't about "style." It's about Christ. And that always has to be the central focus of what a church does, and that of carrying out His instructions and advice to us believers. There's much to do in every community. Imagine what churches could do if more folks simply attended them! Therein lies one very large reason to attend, even if it's not the most captivating choice we might have on any given Sunday. Church attendance is said to be waning. That's never good for the nation we live in! And imagine if due to increased attendance, what churches could again do, that they once did? Things like providing for those in the community who were in genuine need again, and things like that. Even our "safety net" doesn't and can't catch all folks in need. Just ask the local LE agencies! They get people traveling through who get stuck and are out of money and resources. Most of us never get to know of these things they do. Our local Sheriff's Dept. has a fund for these situations, and can put people in real need up in a motel room for the night, and give them money for food and some gas to get where they're going. All sorts of opportunities open up when church attendance increases, and the church can again be so much more than what it is now. Preachers have more "local" stuff to talk about in their sermons, even! So attending church really IS a lot more important than most folks often realize. Mostly, I think that regarding church as "wasted time" tends to arise from our own will to be somewhere else, doing something different, than it does from a real distaste for what is taught in our churches - even the worst of them.

And who knows what would happen if we attended church more often? We might even come to learn to enjoy even the most simple of sermons, and find ourselves able and eager to glean something of value from all of them. Christ didn't advise us to gather ourselves together for worship just so we'd be bored and stay out of trouble! He had a PURPOSE in it. He always does, in all the advice and instruction He gave us. It's up to us to comply with it, so we can FIND that purpose. And if we're diligent in keeping his advice, we WILL find that purpose. If nothing else, it teaches us simple humility - a thing that the whole world could find great use of, if they could only acquire more of it! Attending church will always be a good thing. If the preacher's a real dud, then get together with others in the church and see if you can't find a better one. Maybe that'll cause the dud to become a better preacher. Even preachers are human, you know, and "necessity is the mother of invention," and maybe a poor preacher might be motivated to get better if he HAS to. All sorts of good reasons to attend church. Even a "bad" one. The solution to everything in this world will always depend on US! And compliance with the good advice Christ left us with is the best of all possible places to start, and part of that is attending and participating in our churches, wherever they are and however they operate. We "moderns" simply have come to think everything should be done FOR us, rather than BY us. What a horrible mistake THAT is!

[jonp]

I dont need to "prove" the Bible. My faith tells me its real

[Thundarstick]

James 1:22 Tells me I'm to be a doer of the word and not just a hearer. If I only go to church to do church, then leave it at the steps when I leave what profit is it to Christ glory? If I read and study the Bible and don't apply it to myself to transform me into the man God wants me to be, what good is it to me? James 2:18-22 has a lot to say about doing (works) and faith. If I claim to follow Christ yet show no compassion or lend no helping hand when need arises. Do I speak blessings on others in Christ name, treet others with kindness, and defend the weak when God gives me the opportunity?

What if I'm the only representative of Christ someone will meet today, will I fail, or will I be an ambassador? You see, I need your help, my brothers and sisters, to provoke me to good works (a doer)! I guess sometimes it even comes through a preacher! He he

[Blackwater]

Thanks for the clarification, Tstick. I think I misread or misunderstood your post. Indeed, you have a point.

And Jon, you're right, basically, but we humans are such weak and vascillating creatures, a little proof DOES go an awful long way toward solidifying and steadying our faith. How could it not? And we weren't given the scriptures to just take them as "gospel." Were we not instructed to "study to show thyself approved?" And if we study, truly study with an open mind and heart, how can we NOT find many "proofs" of our faith? It's not mankind's nature to accept things simply on the authority of some writings. We all need some sort of proof, and most of us find it when Christ knocks at the door of our hearts. We KNOW it's real, but few can adequately describe it. And that's just the beginning of the many proofs that we can find, IF we simply look for them.

So faith alone is our beginning, for all of us, but only when we truly seek answers, and Christ himself invited and even instructed us to question everything, because He knew that if we were simply capable of it, we'd find the answers we seek. We might not seek them on the time schedule we want, but we WILL find the answers IF we're simply diligent and unrelenting. And who, upon coming to real belief, could resist the promise of knowing and understanding more about our Creator, Savior and Friend?

"Proof" is a word that has come, especially in relation to anything based in religion, to mean "impossible," but it's NOT! A good and loving God would NEVER leave us with mere rote instructions, without allowing and encouraging us to understand them, their origins, intent, and how they work. But we have to SEEK them. We can't just absorb them through some osmosis like process. On coming to Light, it's necessary (and desirable) that we seek to FIND real answers, and NOT just obey "rules" because they're written down for us.

I thank God every day for the understanding He's allowed me to glean from His words and my own experience. What a wonderful and loving God we serve!

[Char-Gar]

Faith vs. Proof is it that stark? We are indeed saved by faith in Christ. There is no amount of proof that will suffice to get us across the line and into the arms of Jesus. Faith is nothing more than being willing to trust in Jesus even when there is no legal or scientific proof to rely on.

One into the arms of Jesus through faith, proof seems to be all around us. All of life seems to validate our initial saving faith. Pieces fit together, life makes sense and we are astounded that what was before us unseen all along. But nobody has ever been proved into eternal life.

There is an abundance of proof that the Gospel is correct, but it takes faith/trust to begin the journey. Proof are the flowers along the pathway of faith.

[Blackwater]

Ultimately, Char-Gar, you're right. But many, many things can and do lead us to BELIEF at a sufficient level to enable us to confidently come forward and make our commitment, in whatever way our particular sect dictates we do it. Even science now can come right up to the threshold of proving God MUST exist in reality. But it and nothing else can take us across that threshold BUT simple Faith and trust in our Lord and Savior. But again, I state that nobody comes to Christ without good reason, as he or she perceives it. Christ stands at the doorway of our hearts and knocks, but it's US who must answer that knock, and reach out our hands and accept the wondrous Gift He offers us, by the simple virtue of His shed blood on our behalf. Faith is NOT devoid of reason and rationality. Rather, I think it's based very much on rationality and reason. It's only necessary that we be open to it to perceive it, and feel its otherworldly pull. But when Christ knocks, and reaches out His mighty hand, we KNOW what it is that's happening. We can't explain it in "scientific" terms because it's beyond our finite world. We may not be able to fully reach or conceive of the world from which Christ now reaches out to us, but we KNOW it's real, despite that. It's THIS part of it all that we typically have trouble telling non-believers about. But it's probably MORE real than anything in our tenouous and finite world that'll eventually pass away than most can really conceive of. Yet, like much in the Bible that's difficult to understand and articulate, it's so real that our world seems faint in comparison.

This is what I mean when I say we must have "reasons" to believe. And I definitely believe this is true. We're just not the kind of creatures to believe much of anything without reasons to believe it. That's just our innate nature, given to us by God himself. But it's very easy to misinterpret this, or simply not understand quite what I mean by it. Welcome to discussing the Word! It's often SO easy to misunderstand each other. Simple words are just not quite sufficient to the task of talking about things that are beyond this world and our meager understanding of it all. But then, that's what makes it all worth while, isn't it? If we try, we CAN understand each other. We just have to question each other so we CAN come to understand what we really mean by what we say. Fortunately, that's within our ability to comprehend, if we that's what we truly seek.