Unknown sharps rifle

[JasonMillar]

I have a sharps rifle I can't identify the calibre I am in the Isle of Man near England 35 inch octagonal barrel can't see any rifling but it's real dirty an empty snider 577 case fits but the wall is loose and the extractor won't extract it looks a mill out the nearest thing I can find is 600 nitro express but this rifle pre dates this calibre the vernier shows the size of the case that has left an indent in the block I can find nothing that comes near this in Barnes book https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170617/4db861c94c1c76c5ebcd5175c08bca48.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170617/40f033ccdd27cc0575816021ea2ea840.jpg


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[John in PA]

Just from the photos provided, it's certain that you do NOT have a gun in the configuration that it left the factory. The breechblock shows evidence of gunsmith alteration, as that arrangement never existed at the factory. It's possible that the breechblock originally was in rimfire configuration and a centerfire conversion was done at a later time.
The gun might even have originally been a percussion model, and the larger round mark on the breechblock could represent filling the recess of the gas plate recess. More pictures of the rest of the gun, as well as a chamber cast, will yield more information about it's present configuration. Dittos on the large caliber, as the largest factory cartridges for the Sharps cartridge guns were .50 caliber. Please add many more detailed photos, especially of breech, lock, action, for more info.

[ascast]

I have a 59/63 (? on years) New model that is a 28 gauge. Modern off the shelf ammo needs to be cut back about 3/4 inch and then it drops in nice. Also, my receiver was milled out a bit to take the larger rim in loading. Check for that. It does appear that your block was "centerfired'ed".

[JasonMillar]

Ok thanks https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170617/ea30c42490ec43537f7ac1e07546d001.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170617/4fcaaa3e4b1dbed01953a6aa939bb8f1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170617/d8ce653f84e0d3eb00900ede72290a24.jpg197753


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[JasonMillar]

I have a 59/63 (? on years) New model that is a 28 gauge. Modern off the shelf ammo needs to be cut back about 3/4 inch and then it drops in nice. Also, my receiver was milled out a bit to take the larger rim in loading. Check for that. It does appear that your block was "centerfired'ed".

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170617/5b5df6352300243822bdb7f9ee46f399.jpg197754



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[JasonMillar]

Just from the photos provided, it's certain that you do NOT have a gun in the configuration that it left the factory. The breechblock shows evidence of gunsmith alteration, as that arrangement never existed at the factory. It's possible that the breechblock originally was in rimfire configuration and a centerfire conversion was done at a later time.
The gun might even have originally been a percussion model, and the larger round mark on the breechblock could represent filling the recess of the gas plate recess. More pictures of the rest of the gun, as well as a chamber cast, will yield more information about it's present configuration. Dittos on the large caliber, as the largest factory cartridges for the Sharps cartridge guns were .50 caliber. Please add many more detailed photos, especially of breech, lock, action, for more info.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170617/40d04cb36c6fcbdf0a54e6bf82d2f872.jpg
I posted some more pictures thanks for your help I have no idea what calibre takes a 577 snider case but it's slack



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[Don McDowell]

I would suspect it's a 50-70, but in the deteriorated condition of the metal, I sure wouldn't shoot it.

[JasonMillar]

I would suspect it's a 50-70, but in the deteriorated condition of the metal, I sure wouldn't shoot it.

It takes a 20 gauge shotgun shell perfectly I am convinced now that it's a Springfield altered sharps in .58 us musket smoothbore calibre


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[modified5]

That is a neat old wall hanger for sure.
I would never trip the trigger on it.

[JasonMillar]

That is a neat old wall hanger for sure.
I would never trip the trigger on it.

Fired a lot worse than that


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[ascast]

ya pic 3 and 6 , i think show a crack in the bottom of the loading trough, it's more of a dark line. hard to see as he rust is thick. that was the mill out to take shotgun sized rims. mine is in 28, but if yours takes a 577, that would be 24 gauge. And it was sloppy you said rust your by design, so 20 makes sense. Does that match the imprint on the block face? If you can get the barrel off, you might have it magnifluxed at an engine shop or oil field pipe shop. It will show up any cracks. Case hardening is generally 20 to 30 thousands deep. Safe to assume in your case, strength has been compromised. I would not shoot it much like that. You might consider having re-heat treating (colour case harnening), get the block refaced, trued up, pin made right, re-hardened. Reline the schock tube to 45-ouch and have fun with it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Why the musket cartridge? I know the Isle of Man is the most independent of the five nations I can see from near my home, and not less content than the others, although your Queen has another job. But it is likely that a lot of firearms have arrived there since 1937, when new legislation in the UK meant that a lot of rifles were converted into shotguns, some badly but some very well. There is every chance that it was a 20ga. although the rare 24ga (which I have for a 24ga shotgun) is a close fit in the .577 Snider chamber and often used as such. 2½in. was the usual length for the 20ga chamber in those days, and 28ga always a relative rarity in the British Isles.

It is indeed badly rusted. The classic tool for measuring how deep those pits go on the action sides is a point micrometer. It might or mightn't be possible to remove them (belt-sanding being the best method), and originality of finish is no great issue with this one.

We live in the Information Age, and quite a range of Sharps parts, including a reproduction 1863 percussion hammer, are available from http://www.ssfirearms.com/search.asp?nobox=&scat=27&stext=sharps&sprice=&pg=10 . I don't know the position on export now, although they sold me some straight-pull Winchester-Lee parts a while back. Similarly you can see a good range of rifled bore liners on www.trackofthewolf.com , but they no longer export them, although they are uncontrolled in the UK, and they sold me a .32 rimfire Webley without the slightest problem at either end. Think of the hammering world terrorism is taking from all that!

[JasonMillar]

Why the musket cartridge? I know the Isle of Man is the most independent of the five nations I can see from near my home, and not less content than the others, although your Queen has another job. But it is likely that a lot of firearms have arrived there since 1937, when new legislation in the UK meant that a lot of rifles were converted into shotguns, some badly but some very well. There is every chance that it was a 20ga. although the rare 24ga (which I have for a 24ga shotgun) is a close fit in the .577 Snider chamber and often used as such. 2½in. was the usual length for the 20ga chamber in those days, and 28ga always a relative rarity in the British Isles.

It is indeed badly rusted. The classic tool for measuring how deep those pits go on the action sides is a point micrometer. It might or mightn't be possible to remove them (belt-sanding being the best method), and originality of finish is no great issue with this one.

We live in the Information Age, and quite a range of Sharps parts, including a reproduction 1863 percussion hammer, are available from http://www.ssfirearms.com/search.asp?nobox=&scat=27&stext=sharps&sprice=&pg=10 . I don't know the position on export now, although they sold me some straight-pull Winchester-Lee parts a while back. Similarly you can see a good range of rifled bore liners on www.trackofthewolf.com , but they no longer export them, although they are uncontrolled in the UK, and they sold me a .32 rimfire Webley without the slightest problem at either end. Think of the hammering world terrorism is taking from all that!

Just gave it a good clean four rifle grooves have appeared measured the imprint disk it's 577 snider I guess Imported sharps rifles must have been made in a British calibre can't believe I thought it was smoothbore brake cleaner and diesel did the trick. The snider case I was using had been compressed tried to others and they are tight with no movement problem solved


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[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, the .577 chambering seems likely enough. I am sure it isn't a British military Sharps, unless some gunmaker used a stripped action. All I know of those were round-barrelled carbines with three grooves and the Maynard tape primer which was soon dropped from the US market. That involved a specially shaped lockplate, but I don't know if it could be filed flush by a gunmaker who decided to do without it.

I don't believe there are deer on the Isle of Man, and the Snider round was never much used for them in the UK. There is a good chance that this rifle has been places.

[elk hunter]

Some British Army folks had rifles built in 577 Snider for sporting purposes as they an unlimited supply of ammunition. I once saw for sale an American made double with 10 gauge and 577 barrels, wish now I had bought it.

[yulzari]

Failt Ort Jason. Kys t'ou?

Just as a triviality. Officers nor soldiers had access to military ammunition for private use. What they had was access to commercial versions but wanted a .577 Snider as it was popular and generally available around the world where they might find themselves and could be 'liberated' for military use in an emergency. There would have been an uproar if military users were found to be privately shooting at public expense. Volunteers in formally recognised units had to purchase any ammunition used above a small practice issue and would be especially miffed if they found their Regular counterparts getting it free for personal use.

Just possibly this has been rebuilt upon a British Army Cavalry Carbine action? When Sharps were replaced by Monkey Tails and Sniders they were returned to stores whence they were sold on the public market.

If it is an ex British Army action the gunsmith must have been a busy boy replacing the barrel and rechambering (the Army ones were capping using Maynard primer tape) as well as creating a centre fire conversion. Not to encourage you to use it but, after recoiling in horror at the condition and looking more closely, the pitting does not look too deep to me if the breech will seal the Snider case and the bore is OKish there might possibly just be a chance of it barking again.

Slane Ihiat and of course Ta my lhong chrowal lane dy astanyn

[JasonMillar]

Failt Ort Jason. Kys t'ou?

Just as a triviality. Officers nor soldiers had access to military ammunition for private use. What they had was access to commercial versions but wanted a .577 Snider as it was popular and generally available around the world where they might find themselves and could be 'liberated' for military use in an emergency. There would have been an uproar if military users were found to be privately shooting at public expense. Volunteers in formally recognised units had to purchase any ammunition used above a small practice issue and would be especially miffed if they found their Regular counterparts getting it free for personal use.

Just possibly this has been rebuilt upon a British Army Cavalry Carbine action? When Sharps were replaced by Monkey Tails and Sniders they were returned to stores whence they were sold on the public market.

If it is an ex British Army action the gunsmith must have been a busy boy replacing the barrel and rechambering (the Army ones were capping using Maynard primer tape) as well as creating a centre fire conversion. Not to encourage you to use it but, after recoiling in horror at the condition and looking more closely, the pitting does not look too deep to me if the breech will seal the Snider case and the bore is OKish there might possibly just be a chance of it barking again.

Slane Ihiat and of course Ta my lhong chrowal lane dy astanyn

Thanks for the info of probably came via the uk where 577 was popular conversion must have been around when gun was made as its rusted to hell thanks for the info


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[Malamute]

... Maynard tape primer which was soon dropped from the US market. That involved a specially shaped lockplate, but I don't know if it could be filed flush by a gunmaker who decided to do without it.



Many percussion carbines were converted into cartridge guns in the States, both by government and private gunsmiths, and i believe the Sharps factory. There were several indicators, one being the dates stamped on them, another being a long oval metal piece inletted in the left side of the stock that was the rear base of the carbine sling ring attachment (today commonly called saddle rings), and a screw head visible on the bottom front of the lock plate that was part of the primer feed system. Many of the buffalo guns were conversion guns, not 74s as assumed by many. The lock plates were commonly ground down similar to the later 74s and a different hammer installed. The percussion lockplates were thicker than the later cartridge guns. The pics show a faint circle that looks to be in the correct location and size for that screw on the bottom corner of the lockplate and was likely filled in rather than just ignored as the US made conversions usually were done. The butt plate looked like a sporting type shotgun butt from what i could tell on my tablet. Many of the buffalo gun conversion guns had the original military butt stocks on them.

Wanted to edit and clean up composition, but thistablet is an excercise in frustration touse comparedto a real computer. Hope its not too jumbled.

Interesting old gun. Wish we knew more of its history.

[JasonMillar]

Many percussion carbines were converted into cartridge guns in the States, both by government and private gunsmiths, and i believe the Sharps factory. There were several indicators, one being the dates stamped on them, another being a long oval metal piece inletted in the left side of the stock that was the rear base of the carbine sling ring attachment (today commonly called saddle rings), and a screw head visible on the bottom front of the lock plate that was part of the primer feed system. Many of the buffalo guns were conversion guns, not 74s as assumed by many. The lock plates were commonly ground down similar to the later 74s and a different hammer installed. The percussion lockplates were thicker than the later cartridge guns. The pics show a faint circle that looks to be in the correct location and size for that screw on the bottom corner of the lockplate and was likely filled in rather than just ignored as the US made conversions usually were done. The butt plate looked like a sporting type shotgun butt from what i could tell on my tablet. Many of the buffalo gun conversion guns had the original military butt stocks on them.

Wanted to edit and clean up composition, but thistablet is an excercise in frustration touse comparedto a real computer. Hope its not too jumbled.

Interesting old gun. Wish we knew more of its history.

Thanks for the info what's the best reference point for these old guns


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[Malamute]

I believe Frank Sellers wrote a book about Sharps rifles. My reference point was an old friend that collected and traded in buffalo Sharps rifles in the 80s and 90s. Most of what little I know comes from him. A fringe benefit was that he also liked to shoot as many of them as he could when he had them.

Will see what else i can recall for sources and post more when i get the real computer unpacked.

I believe Don McDowell knows a bit about them as well.