POLL RNFP@2000fps@impact with deer,what alloy

[Oklahoma Rebel]

kindof a poll, if you have a 30-35cal rifle shooting standard RNFP boolits, and are hunting deer or hog, what alloy would you use considering the boolit will impact at somewhere close to 2000fps, say 1900-2100fps???

[Outpost75]

C.E. Harris wrote a series of articles in American Rifleman where he fired expansion tests in wet phone books and in a later article used the loads on deer. Very extensive. He used wheelweights + 2% tin in .30-30, .30-'06 and .300 Weatherby at velocities from 1800-2200 fps. Look through TAR bound library volumes from late 1970s to early 1980s.

[10 ga]

Use my standard hunting alloy. typical 1 - 1 + 2% tin. As COWW - soft Pb + 2% tin. Of course the COWW are what you got and the soft I use is from SOWW or cable sheathing. Great boolits. Mostly I'm shooting them out of my SMLs at 2200 to 2600 mv. Mostly saboted bullets of 200 grains and .40 cal to 300 grains of .458 cal. Terminal performance is very good. 10

[Oklahoma Rebel]

cool, anyone else?

[Oklahoma Rebel]

sml? whats that? blank muzzleloader?

[WebMonkey]

smokeless powderized muzzle loader
yes, i said powderized.
;)

i like my 50/50+tin (ww/soft) but i'm shooting a bit slower than you in my .308 @ 1700fps
expansion and retention are sweet

[Oklahoma Rebel]

yep,i need a harder alloy, still experimenting but im real excited about 2 batches I made. were supposed to be lyman#2 +.5%copper, but what I thought was tin wasn't, so I am at 3.4 ish Sn , but I have 3lbs of tin on th way,to make it 5%Sn, then depending on expansion,and brittleness or lack of, I might add enough pure to drop the Sb and Sn to 4%, right now what I have is really hard, fairly tough, but sometimes the front 1/3 of the boolit sheds off and leave a real nice conical point shank. has anyone seen this? that's why I might add 1-1.5% pure.

[10 ga]

sml? whats that? blank muzzleloader?

Smokeless muzzleloader = Have 2 Savage ML2 and 3 custom guns off of Rem 700 and TC actions.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

what alloy do you use?

[gwpercle]

I have seen many photo's posted in our hunting section of deer taken with 30-30 and the 50/50 mix COWW / plain lead with maybe 1% tin and the destruction was impressive . Very impressive!
I've started using it for all my boolits .
Gary

[Oklahoma Rebel]

yeah, that seems to be the go to alloy. I just wonder what velocity they are keeping to, I would guess 1800fps?

[Tim357]

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #3 has an article on this very subject, using the 31141 bullet.

[Hickok]

This works great for me, COWW base, and lead tip.197984

[GhostHawk]

I have recently come into a good stash of COWW. But for years I got by with range scrap, added 1% tin, and pulled the speed down into the 1600 fps range.

All depends on what you need to do. Works fine for punching paper. Might have a bit more rainbow for hunting.

[Hamish]

Range scrap and WW, 60/40, with a little solder each pot full has worked well for pretty much anything I've done under 2400 fps.

[Chill Wills]

This works great for me, COWW base, and lead tip.197984

Two part bullets.
Yes, that is what I have done too. Works like a Nosler Partition.
In the 35 Whelen, I shot 275gr to 2300fps. I used a 5% tin/pure lead nose though- on top of a WW base. You can heat treat this kind of bullet and only harden the base metal, leaving the soft nose - soft.

Great elk load.

[Harter66]

I have a 75/25 WW-1-20 . The 1/20 is from tamper seals and has copper from the seal wire at probably the tin saturation point . It makes about a 14 bhn water dropped bullet but at 1600 fps impact speeds a 200gr 30 cal spire point will become a .590-610 x .300 190-195gr ball in wet pack and leave a wound trail a lot like a 150gr Hornady SPBT at 2500 fps .

I would expect similar performance in 35 cal at similar speeds . Good steel had a thread regarding the 358 Win with a gob of pictures from at least 1 deer and a pretty soft bullet without much meplat . The mess it made looked a lot like a 25-06' shoulder blade hit at 200 yd except that it was on the exit side .....

A Colts 265 RNFP from a 452-255 Lee from 50/50 as above leaves a .600 hole in the shield of 135-165 lb boars on the exit side . Out to 50 yd with a 900-1000 fps MV .

[Hickok]

Two part bullets.
Yes, that is what I have done too. Works like a Nosler Partition.
In the 35 Whelen, I shot 275gr to 2300fps. I used a 5% tin/pure lead nose though- on top of a WW base. You can heat treat this kind of bullet and only harden the base metal, leaving the soft nose - soft.

Great elk load.Chill Wills, I make the lead nose section an easy way. I buy a can of .22 cal air rifle pellets. I then drop 4 of the .22 pellets into my .30 cal molds, dip the corner of the mold into the molten metal until the pellets melt. This forms my soft nose the same weight every time.

Bigger caliber, more pellets. Pretty easy and uniform.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

great job on the boolits hickock. I am pretty close to getting a cz550fs in 9.3X62 to use for hogs mainy, plus the yearly deer and hopefully elk and moose someday. the 286gr rnfp from accurate is the boolit that I am researching for. once I add 3 more lbs of tin I will have 200lbs of lyman#2 with about .4%copper, I think it would do ok for hogs as it is, but to get a bit more expansion without shearing I am going to add drain trap lead to it till it is 4%-4%- and keep the copper at between .2 and .5%. as it is right now going through a milk jug of water into a soft dirt berm the front 1/3 shears off, leaving the back2/3s with a conical nose!? it's srange and im not sure what process does this because they aren't hp's.

[Hickok]

Thank you! The boolits have some of Smoke's clear pc on them.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

oh yeah, if I ever get that SBH bisley 44 I have a ok supply, 80-100lbs of 1.9%sb-5%sn-93.1%pb. which I think will work well for plain base keith, but the accurate 290sg is gc'ed which will be the hotter hunting boolit anyways.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

i wondered why they looked like that!

[Harter66]

Oklahoma
Your alloy is too hard .
198125
These are a 200 gr spire point from a horrible mould I hacked out on a drill press . Think of it as an NOE 312-230 with a little more nose radius and the base moved up about the full length of the butt to the top of the bottom lube groove . MV was 1800 fps . Impact as best estimate about 1500 fps . Dia is .590-.608 , start dia and muzzle exit ideal at .306-.314 . 2 different rifles . Retained weight 196-198 gr start weight 200-+.5 gr .
Alloy 75/25 commercial WW / 1-20 derived from tamper seals the rendering of the tamper seals allows a gain in copper to the tin saturation point from the copper wire in the seals . I don't know what that is but I'd venture .4% or higher plus what ever is present in the WW .
At Straight WW I was loosing 45-53 gr of nose leaving a 145-155 gr 30 cal wad cutter that would swell to a whopping .320 sometimes .
The catch in this is that to be legal for big game I needed 1900 fps at the muzzle and while the WQWW would get me there in the 06' it didn't stay together and the AC wouldn't go over 1600 . The 75/25 WQ would go 1800 but not the last 100 fps . The ACWW mostly held together but not reliably and it failed to make speed . All 3 are softer than #2 by a pretty wide margin . At the time this was all plain based or paper patched .

The #2 bullet nose is shattering on impact . Your .366 dia RN is still I'd bet 180-210 gr . Gas checked the AC WW with 25% your #2 should both stay together and reach your target MV . You may have to think outside the powder can . Who'd use 4350 in a 7.62×39 ? A guy that wants to use all 24" @30kpsi and get single loaded 200 gr cast spire points to 1900 fps with 3×5 groups at 100 out of an SKS with a 305×3165 bbl and a 320 throat , like me . I didn't make it with a bullet that held up but I was sooooo close I could taste it .

[DougGuy]

50/50+2% wins again, why am I not surprised?

Seems like this alloy works in any and all smokeless calibers, pistol or rifle, some may need GC, I use a GC in my 44 and 45 caliber revolvers.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

so what do you think about adding 10-15lb plumbing scrap(drain traps w/ seams) to 100lbs of the 5%-5%-.5%? that should turn out to be 4%each or 3.5%each . so softer but still HT'able

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I think dropping it to 4% would be a safer start, I can always add more. so you said you have copper in your alloy, how do you like it and what effects does it have on your alloy that you noticed? I noticed that it hardens a lot harder, even when aircooled, but doesn't seem to be too brittle, ( except at about 1800fps, which is why I am asking people for advice on alloys). and not sure, but it does seem to be more accurate. hopefully I wont lose that when I "water" my mix down. I want to be able to run the 9.3X62 at 2200fps for the 286gr boolit, which I don't think is too much to as, I have read many stories and post of people shooting cast at 2400-2800fps.

[Harter66]

Twist becomes the challenge .
I run the above "special alloy" water dropped naked with a gas check up to 2640 in a 222 with a 1-12 and 2150 in a 223 with a 1-8 , my body has had enough long before the 1-16 or 1-20 goes away in 45s plain based . Paper patched I've seen 2400 in a 1-8.5 in 7mm with the same alloy lubed and checked I'm closer to 1900 . My 358 turned in a best straight WW group with a 1-14 at 2100 fps . I have bullets of the special alloy ready but I have to grind out a pile of 223 to keep my granddaughters busy so I can shoot the 358 .

I don't have any real game performance to relate but I do know what to expect . That is retention of weight , expansion , and good penetration . The 279-124 at 2150 MV leaves a 30+ caliber hole in 1/4" crs at 110 yd after passing through a 1/2" 5 ply cdx and 3 one gallon milk jugs had holes in both side at 50 yd no bullet though .

The road to game doesn't always cooperate so I'm yet to shoot a pig with a rifle beyond a 92' in 45 Colts with cast .

[Oklahoma Rebel]

all of the results I have mentioned actually come from an sks and lee 312-185 boollit. I am soon getting the cz 9.3mm, I haven't got it yet, its twist is 1-14 which is something I specifically wanted, and why I didn't wand the rem700 in 35 whelen, im glad with my decision now anyways. so what do you think about adding pure to have an alloy of 4-4-.5 copper? keeping in mind the 2200fps (reliably) goal, do you think that's good or would you add 15lbs of pure to make it 3.5-3.5-.5? im sure that would be alright with expansion, but as far as working at that velocity, and hardening I worry would be unsatisfactory. mind you I don't think I need more than 22bhn to reach my goal.

[Harter66]

My wonder alloy is only about 18 bhn ( via the pencil test) . The copper changes the malubility of the alloy without making it harder . It makes it tougher I guess is the word I want . It will behave in the bbl like a harder alloy by better resisting shear loads but it expands like it's bhn would suggest . ( I hope that makes sense )

[725]

Hickok !! That's genius. I think even I can do that. I'll be trying that this weekend. Thank you. 725

[psweigle]

I use range scrap and pc them. Heating them for pc makes the lead very soft so I get awesome expansion at 1800-2000 fps from my 77/357 rifle. Even the round nose 158gr boolits mushroom like a flat point.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

have you ever had your range scrap tested? ( any idea whats in it?) im suprised you don't have any problems.

[Lloyd Smale]

for something like that I like 50/50 ww/lino. Goes about 18bhn. Ive never had a problem with shattering even with straight lino. Only bullets ive seen that fracture or shatter are water dropped bullets. Even the with a round nose profile are usually fine. Its swc's with that seem to sheer off there noses.

[Hickok]

Hickok !! That's genius. I think even I can do that. I'll be trying that this weekend. Thank you. 725

I learned a lot of this process from others on this site, I can't all the credit.:cool:

1. Mold has to be hot.

2. Drop your pellets down in the mold with the sprue plate open.

3. Dip corner of mold into hot alloy until the pellets melt. Let cool until pellets/nose harden. (Push a toothpick down in mold to check when
nose portion is hardened.

4. Close sprue plate and cast rest of bullet as normal with wheel weight alloy.

5. Let mold and casting cool until sprue puddle is hard.

6. Dip corner of mold back into pot/melted alloy until you see the sprue puddle on the sprue plate start to melt again. This bonds the two
sections of the boolit, the ww alloy and the soft lead nose together permanently.

7. Remove mold from melt, allow to cool until sprue puddle on sprue plate is hard. This may take a bit of time as the mold will be very hot.
Be patient.

8. Drop boolits as in regular casting on soft material.

Watch those fingers and be careful. Practice will make better "partition" boolits as you learn the process. I do this with Lee molds, and it has not damaged them in any way. With higher priced molds, you be the judge.

It takes time, but you only need enough for the hunt. Shoot your other one alloy boolits for practice, and use these for bringing home the meat.

[psweigle]

have you ever had your range scrap tested? ( any idea whats in it?) im suprised you don't have any problems.

Nope, never tested. But then I only powder coat it for 357 magnum. For all the others, I just coat them in alox and mica. Never ever had a problem with them.

[John Boy]

what alloy would you use considering the boolit will impact at somewhere close to 2000fps, say 1900-2100fps??? Lyman #2 with GC bullet

[Oklahoma Rebel]

do you have any kills john, and can you tell me about what boolit/velocity you used and what it did?-thanks!-Travis