Realist range of Pistol shotshells ?

[RMII]

What is the effective range on say small rodents or clay (trap) targets for 38/357 (6") ?

[jmorris]

15ft +\- depending on what shot size and how you are loading them.

[mold maker]

Handguns just don't have room for excess shot and powder. The FPS is low and distance is short.
My experience is like jmorris, anything beyond 15' is iffy.

[owejia]

Using .308 brass cut down for the 45 acp loads in S&W Brazilian revolvers using .410 wads and 7.5 or 8 shot 15 ft for snakes and pidgeons in a hay barn 10-15 ft. Cut some the full length of the cylinder and shot crows at 30 ft while bushhogging pastures, would only wound them. These 45 acp loads feed and operate my 1911's very well. Would like to experiment using .357 max brass in security six, if had a shot wad that was available and easily obtained.

[RMII]

That's what I thought it would be. I'll give it a try with some 357's
thanks

[Outpost75]

Slow twist .44-40 rifle using 1/3 oz. of No.8 shot and 5 grains of Bullseye in Federal 410SC shot cup, cut off flush to case mouth if Starline 5 in 1 Blank case, with Walters .36 card wad in end, roll crimped in RCBS .44 Game Getter Long Shot die kills rabbits at 25 ft. from Winchester '92, 15 ft. from Colt New Service and 50 feet from H&R cylinder bore .44/11mm (pre-.410) shotgun.

212381

D1C repair center is 11 inches square. Inner circle is 4" diameter, outer circle is 8 inches.

[jmorris]

That's what I thought it would be. I'll give it a try with some 357's
thanks

I would like to tell you about that water buffalo I killed with a squirt gun but I'll need a few more drinks.

[William Yanda]

"I would like to tell you about that water buffalo I killed with a squirt gun but I'll need a few more drinks." jmorris

Don't you mean I (the listener) will need a few more drinks?

[racepres]

All I can say about my personal real world experience, is that 357/38 ain't enough for Rats...[squirrels either]
The 44/45 [not acp] is what I needed to Plant those larger Critters!!! I don't want to "roll em over" I want 'em "Tits Up"!!

[Little Oak]

Gave up on 38/357 pistol shot cartridges about 1975. Did manage to drag down a coupla starlings but everything else just laughed.
These new Judge type revolvers in .410 might be worth a try?

[smkummer]

Outpost75 group is exceptional at 25 feet but that is with custom made ammunition using all available space including cylinder.chamber space. You can maybe get that at 15 feet with CCI shot cups in a 44 or 45. With a 38/357 AND using 9 shot, it might look that good, might. Remember we are talking feet, not yards. Putting it another way, you get a close a possible or comfortable to a snake before you shoot it with a 38 shot load.

[Edward]

My 45colt will get them rolling at 12-15yds, but they don't always stay down but there's 5 more!

[Outpost75]

Here are typical patterns from .38 Special with home-made shotloads of No.8, at realistic "snake range"

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[victorfox]

Gave up on 38/357 pistol shot cartridges about 1975. Did manage to drag down a coupla starlings but everything else just laughed.
These new Judge type revolvers in .410 might be worth a try?

There's nothing they can do you can't do with a dedicated .45 Colt revolver, because the rifling will mess the pattern. IMHO, since I have a smoothbore Judge (not in America), it's realistic to shoot up to 15-18yds. Hatcher's notebook deals with a smoothbore revolver too and he says it's good for about 20 yds. (check this section, I posted a pdf sometime ago).

Also, there's a video of a guy shooting a turkey with a Judge on YT. I'm bad at measuring video distances, but it's about 2 or 3yds max. For snakes, I go with the guys, you're good to about 15 FT. Only advantage to a rifled Judge over a regular .45 is the payload (it takes regular 1/2oz loads and the 3" version can go up to 11/16oz I think), when you would get about 1/3oz or so (I measured about 170gr of shot in a modified .44-40 case) from a cut .410 shell or .45 Colt case.

[atr]

a month ago I downed a large rat (norwegian) at about 10-15 ft with a commercial shot load for a .38 spl

[ichthyo]

Shot shells work at long distances in my 12 gauge. Still can't hit a flyin' bird with them though.

[RED333]

I made up a load for my 44mag, Some green dot, 3 paper cards,
plastic wrapper around #8 shot and topped off with one card, crimped shut.
Dispatched a opossum from 3 feet looking at my chickens, flashlight in his eyes keep him still.

[RED333]

Got another opossum the other night, used my (corn) load, not shot. Was able to get real close to him.

[Texas by God]

I've shot both 2-1/2" & 3" .410 in three Judges and the patterns were terrible compared to a cut down .410 no choke Rossi single shot. A BIG difference. I like #12 shot in my handgun shot loads and yes, about 15' sounds right. I'm loading some .38s now because we have a Copperhead plague this year for some reason. Our 12 yr old Walmart dog survived a bite a couple of weeks ago and my wife is telling me to wear boots outside at night but 56 yr habits are hard to break.

[Outpost75]

Here are typical patterns fired from a cut-down, cylinder bore, .410 single-shot:

.425 round balls loaded in 5 in 1 blank cases, 5 grains of Bullseye ala Game Getter, aiming with bead sight at 25 yards
.44-40 Cowboy black powder lead cowboy loads fired similarly from the smoothbore barrel
.410, 2-1/2", 3-pellet 00 buck in cylinder bore barrel at 50 ft.
.44 Game Getter No.8 Shot (1/3 oz.) with .425 ball on top, loaded in 5 in 1 blank case, fired from .410 cylinder bore at 25 feet.

200300200301200302200303

[sniper]

GREAT thread! When I get my new 357, I will try using some of Speer's old (about Mid '70s, Red and yellow) shot capsules that I found hiding in my reloading stuff, and the newer, Blue capsules.

Question:The Speer published load is 5.5 gr. Unique. I am going to try a little milder load...5.0 gr. or 4.5 gr., in hopes that lower velocity will produce tighter groups from the 4" barrel. I have #8, 9 and 12 shot, and figure my effective range should be about 3-4 yards.
I have found a crimp that will retain the capsules in the case, without resorting to Super Glue, or fracturing the plastic.

Is there anything I need to be aware of before reducing the charges?

What size Buckshot do I need that will fit snugly in the Speer Capsules, to try some multi-ball loads? 00, 000, or something else?:)

Thanx!

[Combat Diver]

This isn't your typical .357 Mag pistol. TC Contender with a 10" Hot Shot barrel. It has a choke that stops or slows the spin from the rifling. Remove choke if your going to shoot solid projos however. These grey tree rats were shot at 15 YARDS. At that distance I have a 6" or so shot pattern. Reloaded Speer Shotcapsules using #9 shot and Unique.

https://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/16/48/54/01/pb260210.jpg (https://servimg.com/view/16485401/793)


CD

[beemer]

I load 410 ga. shells with close to the same load as used in a 357 mag shot cup. You wouldn't believe the difference, yes the rifling messes up the pattern.

I read an article years ago about a guy that would ream the rifling out of a 45 Colt. He was a woods runner and would load the cases with shot for small game and clamed usable patterns. He also worked up a load for bore sized round balls with decent groups at 25 yds. It's a shame that we can't have handguns with a smooth bore, I would love to have one.

Dave

[jmorris]

Yeah the Hotshot 357's and 44's were more effective than your typical pistol loads. Not just because of the choke, the payload helped too.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/mgm-content/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2016/07/07/5656124_01__357_mag_hot_shots_640.jpg

[LAGS]

One time Armoredman found out that a .38 shot shell wont stop Jack with two shots at 15 feet.
He grabbed my .38 and did not know it was loaded so the first two rounds were shot shells for our local Rattlesnakes when we were Dove hunting.
The Jack Rabbit just wiggled his ears and walked off.

[hiram1]

no1 buck will work real good 3 of them

[skeettx]

For my 357 shot loads, I trimmed down 223 brass to cylinder length, and used a cir-clip for extraction.
Used gas checks to hold the bottom and top of the shot.

Worked well, but not as good as 30-06 trimmed to use in the 1917 revolvers

Mike

maybe today I could use 357 Super Magnum brass

[Time Killer]

10-15 feet snake shooting distance and that is about it.

[35 Whelen]

Realistic? For the several dozen rattlesnakes I've killed, I learned the hard way, the closer the better, whether with a .38/.357, .44 Special or 45 Colt.

About five years ago I did come up with a really neat load for one of my 45 Colt's. The powder charge was something like 6.0 grs. of Bullseye, a plastic over powder wad cut from a coffee can lid, #9 shot to within about 1/4" of the mouth of the case, then seat and crimp a .451" lead ball.

The aiming point was the "B" and range was 20 or 25'-

https://oi60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Cast%20bullets/20140424_171621_zps4e53b2cc.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Cast%20bullets/20140424_171621_zps4e53b2cc.jpg.html)

Same load only I think this was 30'-

https://oi60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Cast%20bullets/20140424_171328_zps2f99ed53.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Cast%20bullets/20140424_171328_zps2f99ed53.jpg.html)

35W

[RogerDat]

I see several mentions of using #9 shot, do people not use #12 shot for "snake" loads in a pistol?

[35 Whelen]

I see several mentions of using #9 shot, do people not use #12 shot for "snake" loads in a pistol?
I don't. I lost a couple of rattlers using 22 LR's with #12. Besides, #9 is just too easy to come by. I bought a box of 1 1/8 oz. 12 ga. field loads, cut the shells open and can get 3 shotshells from each one.

35W

[Drm50]

I load solder in my snake loads. I saw this in a gun magazine years ago. I use Speer shot capsules and cut lead solder the length of capsule. Pull it between fingers to straighten out and stack it like pencil lead. It tears snakes up at 5' to 10'. That's what I carry while hunting snakes to catch alive so range is good enough for my purpose.
It will kill a lot futher but pattern is thin and chance of hit is equally thin. I do this with 44s, 357 won't contain enough to be practical.

[Stephen Cohen]

About 30yrs ago I decided to make a few shot loads for my 357 mag, I used the CCI shot shells as a benchmark and shot them at an aluminium coke can at 15yrds and the can was only dented and knocked over, my loads penetrated the can and gave a good kill pattern that would have killed a dove at that range no problem, to make that load I started with a primed and sized 357 shell with 3grs of bullseye powder over which I pushed 3 cardboard wads made from pistole primer box, cut with a 9mm shell on a block of wood and hit with a hammer, I then filled the shell with as much 8 shot as it would hold and allow for 3 more of the cardboard wads prior to seating the wads I would melt candle wax over the shot and fit wads and more wax to seal, I then run the shell into the crimp die and gave it a good roll crimp to hold it all together. Regards Stephen

[trapper9260]

About 30yrs ago I decided to make a few shot loads for my 357 mag, I used the CCI shot shells as a benchmark and shot them at an aluminium coke can at 15yrds and the can was only dented and knocked over, my loads penetrated the can and gave a good kill pattern that would have killed a dove at that range no problem, to make that load I started with a primed and sized 357 shell with 3grs of bullseye powder over which I pushed 3 cardboard wads made from pistole primer box, cut with a 9mm shell on a block of wood and hit with a hammer, I then filled the shell with as much 8 shot as it would hold and allow for 3 more of the cardboard wads prior to seating the wads I would melt candle wax over the shot and fit wads and more wax to seal, I then run the shell into the crimp die and gave it a good roll crimp to hold it all together. Regards Stephen

This sound like something I would maybe try out. What all you used it on?

[Stephen Cohen]

In this country it is illegal to shoot snakes with any firearm especially pistols and it is illegal to hunt anything with a handgun without the proper hoops being jumped to gain one. I did have a go at cans thrown in the air and found my 6'' sw 686 would have been usable for small game at close range, I would like to tell you how deadly it was on snakes but they are protected. Give it a try it worked for me. Regards Stephen

[RugerFan]

For my .41 mag BH I am using 8.0 gns of Unique. The lead shot (7 1/2) and 2 gas checks come to about 110 gns. I regularly have taken small game at 10-15 yds. At 15 yds the load has enough energy, but the shot pattern is getting rather thin and it’s easy to miss at that distance.

[popper]

Tried 40sw snake load @ 7yds, terrible pattern and did't cycle. 5' maybe?

[Outpost75]

Shot load assembled in Starline 5 in 1 blank casing fired from 1905 Colt Frontier Six Shooter

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Click on photo to display full size. Inner ring of D1C repair center is 4 inches, outer ring is 8 inches, the target paper is 11 inches square. For small game I want a number of pellet hits in the inner 4 inch ring equal to the shot size, 8 number 8s, nine nines, etc. Of course for snakes you need a denser pattern and need to get closer, but these 5 in 1 shot loads in .44-40 kill rabbits and grouse for the pot just fine and have for many years.

[Drm50]

Snakes are tuff critters birds not so much. One shot can score on bird and he is dead. Mr snake takes a good deal more killing. I would say 5' is max range for snakes, especially poisonous varieties here in US. They are much meatier than non poison species and take more killing. When I first hunted Copper Heads for skins I would set on a rock and attempt to drown them while holding them under. Your hand will get tired before snake drowns. Resorted to submerging drywall bucket with 1/4 holes to do the job. Becareful picking up snake you think is dead, might not be and reflex is to bite. Also snake will tend to strike itself where it's hit. It must think something is attacking it. When skinning them out best to wear rubber gloves to protect yourself if you might have small abrasions and cuts on your hands.

[superior]

In Florida, I killed a 4.5 foot water moccasin in a lady’s garage with a cci 22cal shot shell at about 6 feet. I shot him in the face with my Ruger 5.5 bull mk 2. He was poised at me like a cobra. He went down and just wiggled for a minute with a big pool of blood under his head. Later, the same gun and shell got a good sized rat that had fallen through the bathroom ceiling fan cover. He was drt . I load 45 colt shells with 8 grains Unique tamped down with a card wad, and the rest filled with 8shot and sealed with a drop or two of Elmers glue. One of those out of my 7.5 RBH blew a bird feeder robbing squirrel off the porch like he had been hit with a baseball bat. The shot was LOUD ! The distance was about 7 ‘ and the pattern is excellent with a good density in the center.
In the summer, I load the revolver so that my first shot choice is that load, the second is a roundball, and the last four - 300 grain lee’s over 18 grains 2400. I’m ready for anything.251808
Here’s a pic of my 45 colt load, as well as a 40sw . There were two white rats standing close together, almost touching each other in the chicken coop when I fired the 40sw at 10 feet. One ran off... the other rolled on his back and died. One must have shielded the other? The 40 was 3 gr bullseye. , card wad and the rest -8 shot with a blob of rubber cement.

[1hole]

What is the effective range on say small rodents or clay (trap) targets for 38/357 (6") ?

I've played quite a bit with .357 and .44 mag shot shells. Best results - by far - have been .44 and cases formed from modified .303 Brit. shells cut to near cylinder length and blown out for the extra shot volume.

With my best .44 loads and #9 shot I wouldn't attempt rats or snakes further away than about 10 feet. Anything further away than that the pattern gets too thin. Even with my enlarged .44 "shotshell" cases, there just aren't enough pellets to shoot any further with any confidence.

Even with Speer's shot caps I'd cut that 10 feet in half with the much smaller shot volume .357.

[Larry in MT]

I don't recall shooting any small rodents with shotshells but I've killed many dozens of Prairie Rattlers with shotshells in 22 LR, 22 Mag, 38 Special and 44 Special. I would say 6-8' is about it if you want to be sure of killing the snake. Of course, 38s and 44s stretch things out a bit --- but not that much. 10' is "way out there" on a Rattler.

In the centerfires, I use Speer capsules and #8 shot. I remember going from crimped WW 22 LR shotshells to CCI shotshells in 22 Mag. Although the Mag held almost twice the shot, it didn't matter that much.

A 2 1/2" .410 out of a shotgun is capable of 5 times the distance even though it doesn't hold much more shot than my .44 loads

[marek313]

I dont use shotshells but I could see an opportunity here for 3D printing them. You could print a shotshell to lets say 90% , pause, fill with shot, finish printing to close it up. Quick and easy way to get commercial style shotshells at home.

[Outpost75]

Handguns just don't have room for excess shot and powder. The FPS is low and distance is short.
My experience is like jmorris, anything beyond 15' is iffy.

Have to agree on .38/.357 because of the limited shot capacity. Here are some patterns fired with typical loads. Barrel length seems to matter also. Two-inch snub with handloaded No.8 shot gives even and effective pattern at 5 ft. Same 3.5 Bullseye, No.8 shot and card wads round in 4-5/8 Vaquero gives is VERY dense pattern. In the longer barrels dispersion seems to be about one inch per foot. CCI "Big 4" in .38/.357 has impressive penetration, but thin patterns due to low pellet count. Better for furry varmints in the henhouse than for snakes.

251941251942251943251944

[Mr_Sheesh]

The good news is that at 10 feet most rattlesnakes would have a very hard time striking you. (Not saying they won't get your complete attention or that you will be adrenaline-free at 10 feet!)

[firefly1957]

I have a comment elsewhere here like 1HOLE i use modified .303 Brit in my 44 mag revolver I have not shot for maximum range My guess would be a bit over 20 feet.
My 303 brass were Berdan primed so I drilled them to take a 209 primer used a blank load to form fit them to chamber at very near full cylinder length. I found it best to hold shot on a wax paper sleeve I put powder in case (green Dot 7 grains) then heavy card wad I put two turns of wax paper on dowel that fits in case mouth Excess paper rolled over dowel end wax pushed in dowel withdrawn. I then fill wax paper tube with shot to near top of case push it down refill a bit then fold in excess wax paper . A thin card wad is pushed in top then waxed in place with hot wax or even hot melt glue. These cases hold .4 oz shot which is 180 grains and at 15 feet a steel coffee can will have some pellets go though both sides .
I did a test with 45-70 shells loaded the same way and got almost 7/8 oz. in them Trouble was the pattern spread faster then from pistol so even with the double amount of shot effective range was probably the same.

[Forrest r]

Try stepping up to 5 or 6 shot. Years ago I played around with the cci shot capsules using a 6" bbl'd 357. Took clay pigeons and set the on the berm of the pistol range. 9 shot wasn't impressive at all, like others have already stated 8'/10' tops. Tested some 5 shot & was only getting 11/12 pellets in the cci capsule but they easily broke the clay pigeons & 50ft.

A clay pigeon isn't a snake & it only takes 1 bb the size of 5 shot to break it. But the bigger/heavier shot carried further.

[Geezer in NH]

Last winter I bought some new CCI shells for 38's they were loaded with #4 shot. Great power but at 10 feet would not hit a Squirrel on the deck rail by the feeder. Gave up after a cylinder full as it was a wasted effort.

[gwpercle]

I hear the 38/357 shotshell loads are quite effective on carpenter bees but then again so is my magnum fly swatter... which is also deadly on fly's and doesn't leave all those pesky holes in the walls .

[Elpatoloco]

I regularly take rattlebugs at about 10 ft with a load of #9s out of my 44. I use the shot capsules

[Shawlerbrook]

I found 10 feet to be approaching maximum effective range.

[besk]

Are you standing 10 feet away and with the pistol at arms length from the "rattlebug" or is the gun 10 feet away - which means you are standing 13-14feet away at least? Standing 13-14 feet away is a long way from a snake.


I regularly take rattlebugs at about 10 ft with a load of #9s out of my 44. I use the shot capsules

[fcvan]

I always got down on 'eye level' with the snake and crouched just out of striking range. I'd point my 357 at the snake and then wave the pistol 6" from side to side until the snake started tracking the muzzle. Perfect head shots every time, minimal damage to the skin and no biting down on lead pellets during dinner. Big fat chicken neck, southern fried or fire roasted.