22 Spitfire/5.7 Johnson

[abunaitoo]

Anyone form these?????
Friend has a M1 Carbine in this caliber.
Want to see if I can form some cases for him.
He has the dies, but can't find the so far.

[Negster]

I have formed a few of these by just running once fired 30 carbine cases into an RCBS 5.7 Johnson die using sizing wax.

[hicard]

Same here, you do have to make sure of the proper headspace on these. I do not load them as hot as some of the data suggests and am happy with the lighter loads.

[reed1911]

We stock properly headstamped brass for the 5.7. 25.00 per box
http://shop.reedsammo.com/57-Johnson-Spitfire-Formed-Brass-Proper-headstamp-57Johnsonbrass.htm

[abunaitoo]

Mind sharing your load.
I got the rifle and die set from my friend.
Cleaning some shells now.
Die set also came with the form and trim dies.




Same here, you do have to make sure of the proper headspace on these. I do not load them as hot as some of the data suggests and am happy with the lighter loads.

[Larry Gibson]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?337713-7-5-Johnson-22-Spitfire

[hicard]

I use 7 grs of 2400 which gives 1821 fps and 295 fpe out of an 18" barrel @ 1262 psi. Quickloads goes up to 12 grs @ 2861 fps and 727 fpe @ 37236 psi. What powder are you using, maybe I can get some loads worked up for you on Quickloads. 46412 psi is the max for the cartridge. 13 grs of Lil'gun looks good to start at 2703 fps and 649 fpe and 28121 psi. Might have to give that one a try.

[abunaitoo]

I'm going to try 12, 13, 14 of IMR4227.
Maybe some 2400 later.
Need to find more 40gr or 45gr bullets.

[hicard]

Sounds good abunaitoo.

[abunaitoo]

Shot it this Sunday.
Powder was I4227. 12, 13,14.
45gr heads of unknown brand.
50yds only.
All loads shot about the same. 1 to 2 after adjusting the sights, and tightening the stock screws.
I'm not sure if 14 is to much or not, but had two shell blow out.
Could have just been old brass.
I'm going to order 40gr heads and work on it some more.

[Newtire]

I use 7 grs of 2400 which gives 1821 fps and 295 fpe out of an 18" barrel @ 1262 psi. Quickloads goes up to 12 grs @ 2861 fps and 727 fpe @ 37236 psi. What powder are you using, maybe I can get some loads worked up for you on Quickloads. 46412 psi is the max for the cartridge. 13 grs of Lil'gun looks good to start at 2703 fps and 649 fpe and 28121 psi. Might have to give that one a try. Hey there hicard, Which bullet weight are you talking about, which bullet specifically & what seating depth if you have that info. Trying to put together a load but all I have is Ackley info and want less agressive loads, to be straight up. Have a couple of Ackleyized rifles and find the Ackley info to be "a tad" on the warm side.

[abunaitoo]

Got some Sierra 40gr 223 Varmiters.
Made for the 22 Hornet.
Tried some AA 2200 Data powder. I still have a lots of it.
12.5- Not enough powder. Very dirty. Lots of unburned. 4-5 at 50yds.
13.0- Still not enough powder.
13.5- Better. less unburned powder. 1-2 at 50yds.
14.0- Better. Still some unburned powder. 1-2 at 50yds.
Don't think this is a good powder for this caliber.
Going to try some 2400 next.

[Newtire]

What seating depth or OAL if you have that info please.

[abunaitoo]

OAL is 1.665.
I went with the 40gr bullet because it was shorted.
This way I don't have the base sticking past the neck.

[Newtire]

I see the postings of those who say they loaded 55 grain bullets but wonder how they got those long bullets stuffed in there. Even the polymer tipped longish 40 grain bullets don't fit real well. Mainly just old school flatbased 40-45 grainers even fit.

[abunaitoo]

Before I got the 40gr Sierra, I had some 45gr of unknown brand.
To fit through the magazine, the base was past the neck into the case.
Just a little, but not how I like to load.
With the 55gr it must stick really deep into the case.
The barrel slugged to .221/.222, so .224 bullets probably would not be good.

[abunaitoo]

Took it out again today.
2400 powder
11.5, 12.0, 12.5, 13.0, 13.5, 14.0.
Didn't cycle.
????????
Gas piston broken.
Looks like it was cracked for a while.
Ordered a new old stock one.
Hope it fit without to much work.

[Newtire]

Took it out again today.
2400 powder
11.5, 12.0, 12.5, 13.0, 13.5, 14.0.
Didn't cycle.
????????
Gas piston broken.
Looks like it was cracked for a while.
Ordered a new old stock one.
Hope it fit without to much work. Use the wrench they sell and it won't break the nut (or grind out a socket or wrench to make one yourself). Here's one for sale on fleabay.

http://tinyurl.com/y7724p7b

[abunaitoo]

I have a wench, along with other tools for the Carbine.
Never had on break before.
Planefield made so I hope the parts fit.

[Newtire]

I have a wench, along with other tools for the Carbine.
Never had on break before.
Planefield made so I hope the parts fit. I have a Plainfield too and all the military parts fit.

[abunaitoo]

Part came in. Cleaned up the barrel and it fit like new.
I'm wondering if it was broken for a while and just didn't fall out this past time.

[kywoodwrkr]

I load 218 Bee FP Speer in mine.
Use IMR 4227
All USGI except barrel-Paladin barrel(90's).
See there is Speer HP now also. Should have said maybe there will be!
Fun little rifle.
Thought I obtained original loading data from COTW from the 90's time frame.
Load software probably would be useful as well.
Update-Forgot Grafs has 5.7 Johnson 'basic' brass with correct headstamp.
Basic in this case is 30 carbine it looks like with 5.7 Johnson headstamp.

[abunaitoo]

Shot it yesterday.
Worked fine.
Used 2400 powder. 11.5, 12.0, 12.5, 13.0, 13.5.
Seemed a little to hot even with the lowers load.
Blew a case at 12.5.
Accuracy was "not to good"
I have a feeling the piston was broken for a while.
Plan is to go back to I4227 and probably try some slower powders.

[69daytona]

I picked up a 5.7 spitfire barrel month ago, one of the original 1-16 twist that was NOS, throat is so long I can seat a Sierra 69 gr with base at bottom of neck and still not touch rifling. Been to busy to take it out and shoot it but with 1-16 I settled on 34 gr varsity bullets from grads and sons. Real cheap for 500.
Glad to see some other people on here shooting these.
Spent three years in Kaneohe Bay back in early 80s.

[abunaitoo]

When I slugged this barrel, it came out to .221/.222.
So I went with the Sierra Hornet bullets.

[abunaitoo]

Decided to go to the range today.
Shot it with Reloader7
10.0, 11.0, 12.0, 13.0.
All cycled well. Much softer recoil. All between 1" to 3" at 50yds.
Bad part is shells came out with lots of soot on the neck.
Powder to slow.
Going to try I4198 or N133 next.
Getting closer.

[Newtire]

Decided to go to the range today.
Shot it with Reloader7
10.0, 11.0, 12.0, 13.0.
All cycled well. Much softer recoil. All between 1" to 3" at 50yds.
Bad part is shells came out with lots of soot on the neck.
Powder to slow.
Going to try I4198 or N133 next.
Getting closer.

Thanks for doing all this testing guys. I heard it said that you could use .218 Bee data but tend to believe certain people on this site more than I believe some of the other things I see on the Internet. When you see incipient case separation beginning a couple of notches lower down on the scale, one begins to seriously question the loadings from P.O. Ackley books...??

[abunaitoo]

I'm feeling the load data for the 218 Bee might be a little hot.
I start low and go up, but stop if it feels to hot.
I'm using range pickup brass, so don't know if reloaded or not.

[Newtire]

I'm feeling the load data for the 218 Bee might be a little hot.
I start low and go up, but stop if it feels to hot.
I'm using range pickup brass, so don't know if reloaded or not.
Starline now sells M1 carbine brass. I'd be willing to bet it's thicker than anything else, judging by the other stuff they sell, so you'd have to start out on the low side. Great brass though!

[69daytona]

I bought NOEs 37 gr gas check mold for my spitfire, mine measures .2235 on the grooves. I have these little cast boolits sized to .225. Did a quick load check and seems like lilgun is about the best powder for these, 13.2gr gives you 2550fps at 36600 psi, about 10k lower than max.
That's 85% case capacity.
Will let you know haw they shoot as soon as I get a chance to get to the range. Hoping this Weekend.

[69daytona]

Took my spitfire out today and the two rounds I got off showed no signs of high pressure and both printed right next to each other but real high, need a taller front sight to get it closer to POA.
I had my gas piston pop out and keep the op rod from closing the bolt all the way so that ended my day with that gun.
Lucky no damage to gun, looks like gas piston nut wasn't staked in and being first m1carbine I didn't know it was already half way out.
Will clean it all up and have it back together tomorrow and take it out next week to try some more.

[Newtire]

Took my spitfire out today and the two rounds I got off showed no signs of high pressure and both printed right next to each other but real high, need a taller front sight to get it closer to POA.
I had my gas piston pop out and keep the op rod from closing the bolt all the way so that ended my day with that gun.
Lucky no damage to gun, looks like gas piston nut wasn't staked in and being first m1carbine I didn't know it was already half way out.
Will clean it all up and have it back together tomorrow and take it out next week to try some more.

Hi 69 Daytona. Just a thought; I haven't had my gas piston come loose on me during shooting before so have a guess as to why it may be happening. I would say that the threaded interface between the nut & the gas piston housing attached to the barrel has gotten so that it's not fitting properly anymore. In this case, a bit of blue loctite should serve to fill up the gaps in the threads and help it to stay put. I would advise against staking it, since this may result in damage eventually. Just saying this based on the fact that I've never had to stake mine in place. A little 3-5 second burst of heat from the propane torch will get even the stubbornest loctite to turn liquid again so that you can unscrew it again for cleaning the carbon out of it. Sounds like the metal on the gas piston housing may have been a little soft or maybe the replacement nut was of questionable quality. Either way, the loctite should fix it without having to booger things up by staking.

[69daytona]

Thanks newtire, I took it all apart today, looks like whoever put it together last didn't tighten it up more than half way because the threads in the base are buggered. Have to get a 1/2-32 tap or the armorers tool to fix it, then use the blue loctite.
Thanks for the tip.

[abunaitoo]

Took it out yesterday with VV N133 powder.
10.0 to 14.0.
Powder is to slow.
Lots of blowback and soot on case.
All loads 1/2 to 2 at 50yds.
It did get better with higher charge.
Cycling was good with all loads.
I'll go back to trying a faster powder.
Don't have a Lilgun.
According to the chart I have, and powder I have, it's in between 2400 and W296.
I'll go back and try 2400 and W296 again.

[Newtire]

Thanks for keeping us posted Abunaitoo! Looks like 2400 is the ticket. I use a lot of WW 296/H110 in the regular .30 carbine but that's using heavier bullets. It burns great in .30 cal, I wonder about lighter .22 bullets though. Plus, it's one of those powders not recommended to reduce charges with (detonation problems).

[69daytona]

H110 with the loads I looked up were around max pressure at 86-92% case capacity with velocities in the 3000-3200 fps range with 40 gr hornady.
Got my gas piston nut fixed and loctited in place, as soon as this heat wave breaks I will go try it again, have a bunch loaded with lilgun and h110, 4227.

[Newtire]

Thanks for the update Daytona. Great thread.

[abunaitoo]

Saw that I didn't try Blue Dot, so I loaded up some and tried it on Sunday.
Load was 9.0, 9.5, 10.0, 10.5.
9.0 was 1" to 2" at 50yds. Cycle good, A little soot on neck.
9.5 was 2" to 3" at 50yds. Less soot on neck. Primers flat.
Didn't try the 10.0 and 10.5 because of how flat the primers were.
Accuracy was worse, so didn't have to.
Blue Dot may be just to fast.
I think this is the sixth firing with these cases.
Could be the reason for the soot.
I'll anneal them for the next round of testing.

[Newtire]

Great work Abunaitoo. I used Blue Dot for some .30 carbine loads with cast & had pretty good luck but it was a narrow band between function and too much pressure. This is turning into a real thorough wringing out of this cartridge.

[abunaitoo]

Taking long because i get to the range only on Sundays. When I have time.
But I'm getting closer.

[abunaitoo]

I think I've found the best load for this rifle.
11.5 of 2400. 40g Sierra .223 bullets
1 1/2 at 50yds. No soot.
Started at 10.5 and worked up to 12.0.
11.5 and 12.0 no difference.
I'll load more rounds and move to 100yd accuracy.
Getting closer.
Be off this Sunday. Sister in town.

[kywoodwrkr]

FWIW
Manual of Catridge Conversions pg 709
40gr/spire/14.0gr-2400 /2850fps/Nonte
50gr/spire/14.0gr-IMR4198/2700fps/Barnes

[abunaitoo]

In my earlier testing I did try some 14.0gr loads.
Little to hot. to me

[Newtire]

Each gun is a different story for sure but good advice to start low as we know. Sure looks like 2400 is going to be hard to beat. Any of those powders around that burn rate would be worth a look see.

Any info on primers used?

This is a pretty good bunch of information on a cartridge about which there really isn't much info written on. Great work guys!

[texasnative46]

Newtire,

Fwiw, when I was "way down South", one of the Civil Guard guys had a US .30 M1 Carbine converted to the .22 Johnson Spitfire & used it for hunting both 2-footed & 4-footed quarry.

I cannot remember either sort of "game" getting away after being hit with that little carbine.

BEST WISHES, tex

[abunaitoo]

I've been having problems with the gas piston.
The nut keeps blowing off.
I've cleaned the threads in the housing. They look good.
Noticed a crack where the hole on top is.
Don't see any other cracks in it.
Last time I added some blue Loctite, but it didn't help.
I ordered a new nut and will try that.

[Newtire]

Yeah, the nut was cracked on my .30 cal. when I bought it. I think that if it gets loose, it hammers a bit and cracks. Put a touch of blue loctite on it. Just warm it up with your propane torch for about 3-4 seconds when you want to take it out. It won't crack or come loose anymore I'll bet.

[SWANEEDB]

I've been having problems with the gas piston.
The nut keeps blowing off.
I've cleaned the threads in the housing. They look good.
Noticed a crack where the hole on top is.
Don't see any other cracks in it.
Last time I added some blue Loctite, but it didn't help.
I ordered a new nut and will try that.

Do you happen to know the MFG who made the barrel, there were several barrel makers, if you can't figure out who and can take a pic or 2 maybe we can help you out.

[abunaitoo]

No marking anywhere on the barrel.
The top front of the receiver is stamped....
Plainfield Machine
Dunellen. N.J.
Cal.22 PMC M-5

When I first started working on it, it had problems sometimes ejecting.
It also sometimes had lots of blow back and blown shells.
I noticed something rattling. When I took it apart, the piston was broken.
Used the old nut with a new piston, and it's been blowing the nut out since.
Last time I used blue Loctite and made it a little extra tight.
Ordered a new nut.
If the new nut doesn't work, I'll just spot weld it.
If there is a big, long crack, I don't see it.
Can't do anymore damage to it, and it should get it working again.
Unless someone knows how to repair the threads in the housing.

[Newtire]

Numrich has new barrels if worse comes to worse. https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/766960A

[abunaitoo]

New nut came in.
It seems to me that the nut is not going all the way in.
I ordered a thread tap.
I want to clean up the threads and try it again.
If it still won't hold....
I just got a early Christmas present to myself............A Tig welder.

[abunaitoo]

Got the tap.
Kind of hard to start it straight.
Found that the threads were bad.
Nut wasn't going down all the way.
After the tap, it's now bottoming out.
Will try it this weekend if I have time.

[Newtire]

Hope that is all it is. That would be great!

[abunaitoo]

Took it out yesterday.
After 10 rounds I took the stock off to check the nut.
It was coming out.
I did use blue locktite and stake it.
It was a new old stock nut.
I'll clean it up and look at it better.
May just end up welding it.
This thing is more problems than it's worth.
Not my rifle.
It was given to a friend.
probably why it was given away.
Can't be worse than it is now.

[Newtire]

Just wondered if you could drill & pin the nut to the gas "chamber"

[abunaitoo]

Looks a little to thin for that.
I did see a small crack in it.
Just going to weld it.
Can't make it any worse.

[abunaitoo]

Been busy with other projects, but finally found some time to play with it again.
Not the best solution, but piston nut is now welded.
Seems to be holding fine.
Loading Sierra 40gr, .223di, Hornet bullets. 2400 powder. 11.3, 11.5, 11.7.
All loads, primers flat. Small rifle CCI
11.5 seems to be the best.
Now that the piston problem seem fixed, I'll go back and try some different powders again.
Suggestions on weather to go faster, Blue Dot, or slower I4227.

[abunaitoo]

So I went with I4227 this time.
11.5, 12.0, 12.5.
Cases showed lots of blowback. Dirty and soot.
Primers flat at 12.0 and 12.5.
Accuracy not that great, with 12.5 the best at 2" at 50yds.
So 2400 was good, but to me a little to fast burning. I4227 was to slow burning.
Going to try W296. middle of the two.

[arclight]

You might want to look at Hodgson Lil'Gun. It works great in 30 carbine and .357mag lever guns.

[Newtire]

I had a lot of grains of unburned powder in .30 carbine with IMR 4227. Curious to know how things go with the WW296. It was the best with 113 gr. pointed gas checked in .30 carbine.

[abunaitoo]

I'm using what powders I have on hand.
Lots of people have suggested lil'gun.
Never tried it.
It is a little faster than W296.

[Newtire]

I'm using what powders I have on hand.
Lots of people have suggested lil'gun.
Never tried it.
It is a little faster than W296.

Looks like you're really dialing this thing in. It makes sense that Lil'Gun would work. A while back, Lil'Gun was hard to come by and I was experimenting with loads for my newly acquired Savage 24F in .22 K-hornet and it worked out being one of the best powders (if not THE BEST) as far as accuracy and velocity in that caliber. The K-hornet and the .22 Johnson are pretty similar ballistically, so that might be one to give some thought to. The nice thing about powders in this burn rate vicinity is that they can be used in my .410. No sense in buying a powder you can't get rid of in another gun if things don't work out.

[abunaitoo]

The W296 did good.
1" to 2" at 50yds.
10.0, 11.0, 12.0.
12.0 was the most consistent.
Primers look good. Cases still dirty.
Going to try an anneal some of the cases to see if it helps.
Also need a better rear sight. One on it is lose.
Gun Show this weekend, so no shooting.

[abunaitoo]

Tried again yesterday.
11.5, 12.0, 12.5.
11.5 and 12.0 about the same, but 11.5 little more consistent.
Getting closer.
Need to fix the rear sight. It's very lose.
Hope to try it again this weekend.
Shot at 50yds. Seven shots. Upper right is two hits.
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