wad punch Q

[wonderwolf]

I know track of the wolf has wad punches to cut your own wads for 45-70 etc. Are these custom made punches or are these just a fraction punch like 29/64" (.453") orrrr 7/16" (.437") right now I'm just using a lee push through sizer to cut perfect .458 wads out but its very wasteful and time consuming.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I do not know the answer to that, but you can find a cheap 5-punch set made by red chinese communist home industry collectives for sale at flea markets and horbor freight that can be reground a little to be more caliber specific and hardened a little to work for moderate duty. BvT

[SharpsShooter]

My wad punch is of the press mounted vareity and it is very neat and not wasteful at all. I can do several hundered an hour and they are .462-3 diameter for the 45-xx cartridges

SS

[Southern Son]

I have a BACO press mounted wad punch and it is fantastic. Before it, I used a wad punch that was fitted into a drill press, it did OK, but there was quite a bit of waste and I had to stop frequently to clear the punch. It had a spring loaded plunger in the middle, so after you punched through the material, as you raised the punch, the plunger would eject the cut wads. The only problem was that the spring was under such pressure that if you were cutting anything that was waxed (like milk cartons or breakfast food boxes) and you tried to do more that one layer of material, the wads would stick together. It was a real job separating them. The BACO wad punch just cuts through anything that you put in it within reason, and the wads are easily separated if you cut more then one thickness of material, there is very little wastage and the wads are all very uniform.

[wills]

Try Buffalo Arms

"Especially designed for the black powder shooter. Available in .32, .38, .40, .43, .44, .45, .50 rifle calibers. 38-40, 44-40 and 45 pistol calibers. "

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,242.html

[Dale53]

I have the press mounted wad cutters in .32, .40, and .45. They are absolutely EXCELLENT. The only downside is that they cost money[smilie=1:. It only takes about 4,000 wads to pay for them, tho'. That sounds like a lot but I didn't find it so. I like the independence of making my own when I needed them (actually, BEFORE I needed them:mrgreen:).

Dale53

[Southern Son]

+1 on the independance side of things, it is amazing what you can cut wads with on the press mounted ones. I am thinking of trying old fur felt hats soaked in a lube next. I also got some LDPE from BACO when I got the wad punch, the 0.030 stuff. I want to find a local source for some 0.060 LDPE because the thinner stuff works well. Does anyone know of a source in Oz? I have tried a number of Clark Rubber shops and they had no idea.

[Jon K]

Southern Son,

I was looking into this a couple of weeks ago. I found thru commercial gasket house you can get 8' sheet, and some hardware outfits have it in 3 sq ft(1x3) like BACO, but cost savings is minimal $.30-$.80, and have to ship it from central supplier.
I stopped looking and ordered some from BACO. I will look around more later. I'm sure there is a reasonable source out there, just gotta take the time to find it.

Jon

[KCSO]

Get one from Upper Missouri Trading Co Crofton, NE 68730. Doc has his own made to the correct size and they are either or use a hammer (copper or brass) or drill press mount. Mine punches a 457 wad from milk carton material and the felts run just a tad larger. Sizes for most popular target rifle calibers.

[Dale53]

Southern Son;
Any plastics supplier in major cities should have .060" Low Density Poly Ethelene (LDPE) for a very reasonable price. I just had a friend call me a few weeks ago and asked that I go in on a 4'x8" sheet. That gives each of us a 4'x4' sheet (duh-h-h[smilie=1:). I can't give you the price as I am several hundred miles from home down here in the "Sunny" south (it's in the middle of a thunder storm:roll:) but I assure you that it was much more reasonable by buying it direct.

The advantage of the press mounted wad cutter die is the precision of the cut and the speed of production.

I cut the wad material (whether LDPE or "Vegetable Fiber" (really just auto parts gasket material obtainable at your local auto parts store {at least in the U.S.}) into strips of appropriate width for two rows of the caliber of choice. It is important to leave enough area around that the wad punch does not distort the wads by cutting too close (a little trial and error here works wonders). Record your findings, so that six months later you won't have to "trial and error" again. Once through the program is excusable, two or more is wasteful[smilie=1:).

NOTE: Use a rotary cutter obtainable from the fabric store that your better half inhabits (if she is a quilter or seamstress). They are not expensive and will give easy, accurate cuts (use a metal straight edge and when you buy your rotary cutter get a cutting surface from the store that sells the cutter). This will make things WORLDS easier!! I have tried every method of cutting that my fevered mind could conjure up and believe me, the rotary cutter IS the method. Ladies who make quilts use these to accurately cut quilt blocks for their quilting projects.

Dale53

[sav300]

SOUTHERN SON,where are you in Aus?I am near Newcastle and there is a plastics place I can check out 4 u.

[Southern Son]

Sav 300,
Mate, I am in Queensland, a couple of hours west of Mackay. My mum and dad are down near William Town RAAF base. What is the name of the plastics place? I was just down there seeing the parents so I won't be back down for a while. Went to the gunshop at Thurston (just moved into a new store). Looked pretty flash, but the prices were up there.

[sav300]

Southern Son,will check out the plastics on monday and will let you know.
Gun shop at Thornton is expensive.He is trying to build a 500yd range with in 1 hour drive of Newcastle. How thick you need the material?

[Dale53]

When I was shooting BPCR competition and wanting to use LDPE wads, I ran bullet recovery tests. It takes a .06o" wad to eliminate bullet damage from the exploding powder. Lesser thickness wads did NOT stop the bullet damage.

I got more consistent groups at both short and long range (100-600 yards) when using the LDPE wad at .060" thickness.

FWIW

Dale53

[montana_charlie]

Dale,
Your post makes two simple (but important) statements about LDPE wad material.
1. Thickness must be at least .060" to prevent base deformation.
2. LDPW produces better consistancy on the target.
I am willing to accept both of these as absolute fact (for the moment) because I have no information to dispute either.
But, those statements tickle my curiosity.

I have always used .030" veggie wads...just because I have them. I can't say 'I never looked back' because I keep looking in all directions and making mental notes. I have not (yet) settled on a load which is so predictable that experimenting with wad material is likely to produce measureable results. But I do have one of those nice press-mounted punches, and a sheet of LDPE...waiting for the day when that experimentation seems like a worthwhile endeavor.

The two materials (LDPE and vegetable fiber) are so different, a person would think that one would prove to be so superior to the other that the 'poorer' one would simply fall from the market. But, it seems that shooters are about evenly divided between plastic and fiber wads.
Perhaps that is because not enough 'veggie' users have tried LDPE yet...or maybe because of 'plastic fouling' concerns voiced by a few.

So, the fact that both are still in favor with half of the shooters makes me curious, but my real question for you is...

Why (in your opinion) does LDPE work so well?
Comparing the differences in the two substances, what do you believe is happening in the barrel?

CM

[Dale53]

Montana Charlie;
Actual testing by me (and others) showed better consistency in groups (use of the wads seemed to eliminate "flyers"). All tests were conducted from 100-500 yards on paper (10 shot groups off a bench with a 20 power modern scope).

The base deformation is visible to all - just shoot bullets into a capture box where the bullets are not deformed and look at them. It takes .060" wads to prevent base deformation.

I have tried both vegetable fiber wads and LDPE wads. The LDPE wads shoot better - veggie wads do not seem to eliminate an occasionable flyer. However, some ranges do not permit LDPE wads and I do not go against the wishes of the ranges (even tho' I could probably get away with it - at least for a time. I try to respect the wishes of people who provide us with a place to shoot - nuff' said regarding that).

So, I use the LDPE wads as much as possible because they are just better. Iuse the veggie wads when I can't use LDPE wads.

Why are they better? That, of course, requires a conclusion. I believe that the wads become, at the instant of the bullet leaving the barrel, the bullets base. The precision of the wad (as cut with a press mounted punch) perfectly delivers the bullet at the moment of the bullet leaving the barrel. If there is a slight irregularity in the edge of the bullets base, the gas does not "tip" the bullet because the expanding gases are BEHIND the wad. Further, the wad, being malleable, is expanded by the pressure of the expanding gases and perfectly seals the gases behind the wad (no chance to gas cut the plain base bullet).

I find that it is somewhat difficult to shoot 10 shot groups without blowing a shot or two with a BPCR. Shooting at 500 yards is challenging. However, I did enough of this to determine to my own satisfaction that I could shoot, on demand, good ten shot groups at 500 yards given good conditions. Conditions play a big part in shooting at that distance with a black powder rifle (shooting was done with straight black and my favorite powder soon became SWISS).

10 shot groups at 500 yards often were in the neighborhood of 6"-8" (not quite minute of angle, but quite good to my estimation). I have shot a good many groups at 100 yards, in front of witnesses, that WERE minute of angle. Again, in good conditions. The idea was to test the gun and load, not the shooter.

Five shot groups are MUCH easier to shoot (at least for me) but I believe I learned a good bit more from 10 shot groups. In fact, I would have to say that a ten shot group was about three times better in predicting the worth of a load than a five shot group.

Unfortunately, after fifteen enjoyable years with BPCR, I began to suffer from a progressive loss of vision and I no longer am competitive with iron sights. I can still shoot with optical help at about the same level but I no longer compete with BPCR's.

Good luck in your quest...

Dale53

[montana_charlie]

I use the LDPE wads as much as possible because they are just better.

Why are they better? That, of course, requires a conclusion.
I believe that the wads become, at the instant of the bullet leaving the barrel, the bullets base.

Further, the wad, being malleable, is expanded by the pressure of the expanding gases and perfectly seals the gases behind the wad (no chance to gas cut the plain base bullet).
I have seen that malleability mentioned before. Some (like you) consider it an asset, while one guy thought it swelled his case necks when compressing powder with the wad in place. He thought it was the reason his loads would not chamber easily.

In any case, you have convinced me to try them...since I already have the stuff on hand. But, mine is .030" LDPE stock.

Yeah, I know I could use two LDPE wads to make your .060" thickness, but I will start with a .030" veggie under a .030" plastic wad.
I'll see if rigidity + malleability = consistency.

Thanks for your conclusion...
CM

[Junior1942]

Here's another vote for the Buffalo Arms press mounted wad cutters. They are high, but quality usually is.

[Southern Son]

Sav300, like Dale53 says, .060 of an inch (about 1.5mm). I have tried .030 and I think it did OK, but I would like to step up to .060 and try that. If they have it, how much do they want and can I order it over the phone/net? If you need some, then can we save buy getting a heap of it together?

I just got the keys to the gun club I joined so I will be doing ALOT more load development for my BPCR (and other rifles) over the next few years. The only thing holding me up now is finding someone to go out there with (there is a silly rule that you can't go out there alone, something about the boogey man).

[montana_charlie]

I have tried .030 and I think it did OK, but I would like to step up to .060 and try that. If they have it, how much do they want and can I order it over the phone/net?
Wads -
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,1411.html

Wad material -
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,240.html

CM

[Southern Son]

CM, I got the Poly I have now from BACO, with the wad punch, but the postage is in the vicinity of $25.00 US, which is a bit much for something that costs about $5.50. If I can get it local and save on postage, then that would be great, but even if I have to get it sent up from Newcastle, then that would still be cheaper.

[montana_charlie]

but the postage is in the vicinity of $25.00 US,
There is no 'location' displayed with your username, so I tend to forget that you are down under. Do you suppose that little German gunsmith would have any?

You know...the one that did the reloads for Quigley.

CM

[4060MAY]

Southern Son
do you have plastic coffee can lids there, the clear ones.?
In the US they are stamped with the type plastic for recycling
look for the triangle with the number 4 in it and LDPE under it
some are .030 thick, just use two.

[Southern Son]

CM, I don't know if that German Gunsmith is still working.

4060, the larger coffee cans some with the LDPE caps, sometimes, but I don't drink coffee and where I work there are only 3 of us, so they only get the small coffee cans.

[sav300]

Ok here is the name and address for Plastic.One sheet 2x1 1.5mm $36 + postage.
I spoke to them on the phone and explained what you needed.When you phone ask for sales.

Specialised Wholesale and Plastics.
30 Verulam Rd.
Lambton 2299. NSW
0249411484.

Lionel

[August]

Our range required a spotter for the 500 meter range for a time. The reason for the rule was to insure that bullets were hitting the berm, rather than flying off into adjacent housing developments. It only takes one bullet into someone's living room to loose the range entirely. It seemed like a sensible rule to me, although I was grateful when the berms were improved and the rule was relaxed.

On topic: I use walter's .060 wads and have had good success with them. I do use a waxed paper release wad between the veggie wad and the bullet.



Sav300, like Dale53 says, .060 of an inch (about 1.5mm). I have tried .030 and I think it did OK, but I would like to step up to .060 and try that. If they have it, how much do they want and can I order it over the phone/net? If you need some, then can we save buy getting a heap of it together?

I just got the keys to the gun club I joined so I will be doing ALOT more load development for my BPCR (and other rifles) over the next few years. The only thing holding me up now is finding someone to go out there with (there is a silly rule that you can't go out there alone, something about the boogey man).

[Southern Son]

August, the chances of a boolit leaving our range and landing anywhere inhabited by people is pretty slim, the range is 18 Kilmeters out of town, and behind the rifle burm is about 100kilometers of scrub.