What's a pistol ?

[Harter66]

I went to a shoot where a "new" game was introduced . A 2 gun companion shoot the rules are pretty simple . A rifle and a pistol and 1 box of ammo on an 11" scored target at 25 yd 5 shots from each . In the spirit of the 1 cartridge cowboy/settler .
Examples .
45 ACP in a 1911 and a 945 High Point
45 Colts in a Henry or 92 and some revolver .
For those into overkill ,
A BFR and a 1895 in 45-70
An X frame 500 Smith and a Handy rifle
A Grizzly 9mm Mag and a custom AR or rebarreled MPV
We even let a 20ga with a chamber insert and a M19 play
I just felt like it needed a line at a Super 14 30-30 on an Encore and a 16" Encore with a butt stock .

I guess that would make me a jerk if I said " go ahead use the Buntline and the 94'" . But in reality the Contender guy could take his 30-30 or 17 hornet or 500 Smith 16" bbl and slap it on the pistol grip frame shoot the first 5 then Chang the frame or grip to the butt stock and shoot the other 5 shots .
I suppose it could have a 2 min clock .
It should in all fairness I guess exclude Mares legs and an AR with a rifle and separate pistol lower as well .

So if it were your 2 gun , 1 cartridge , 1 hand gun ,1 rifle , where would you call the line ?

[dverna]

I would use tge ATF definition

[Tom W.]

I've been told a revolver is not a pistol. A pistol has a chamber that holds one round, a revolver has a cylinder that usually holds more than one round. Again, that's what I've been taught. Please don't take this as a beratement.

[9.3X62AL]

I would limit the daylights out of things--if for no other reason than to keep the gamesmanship enthusiasts at a respectful distance. The intensity of my dislike for that mindset is boundless.

[darrondb]

I've been told a revolver is not a pistol. A pistol has a chamber that holds one round, a revolver has a cylinder that usually holds more than one round. Again, that's what I've been taught. Please don't take this as a beratement.

I've heard this definition before as well when discussing pistol vs handgun vs revolver vs etc.

[ReloaderFred]

If it was in the spirit of the early cowboy using one caliber for both rifle and handgun, then I'd limit it to the following:

.22 LR
.32-20
.38 Special
.38-40
.44 Special
.44-40
and I'd let them shoot .45 Colt, too, even though there weren't any Model 66's, 73's, 92's or 94's chambered in that round until recently, due to the almost non-existent rim and no extractor groove. The extractor groove enabled rifles to finally work with the .45 Colt.

I might let them shoot a few other calibers, but they would have to have roots somewhere in the cowboy realm.

Hope this helps.

Fred

PS: Why did they close the public range south of Hawthorne???

[Harter66]

PS: Why did they close the public range south of Hawthorne???

It's the glorious story of some goobermental staff doo gooder that was a big fat cry baby .......sorry what I meant was there were some concerns about potential runoff contamination coming from Army owned lands and a DNC supporting Commander .
I really tried to be nice .

[Petrol & Powder]

A pistol is a handgun that has a single chamber integral with the rifled barrel.

But, in the context of the game, I think they mean revolver.

[Harter66]

Truth be told as far as hand gun goes I can't count the number of times I've read I shot this one hole 100 yd group with (insert your favorite pistol cartridge) and I'm all man that is some dialed in .......... Oh it was in a Super 14 . There's just something about a fixed SBR being a pistol that just chaps my group shooting senses .

I guess it doesn't help being of the pre Contender mindset that a pistol is a pistol except when it's a revolver and while an RXP 100 is a hand gun it's neither a pistol nor a revolver even if it's 1 of the super rare varmint slayers with a magazine .

Don't get me started on the mag clip thing I will beat you with my clearly marked CLIP Savage removable box magazine .

Limons and limes I guess .

[JSH]

Limit to a minimum and a maximum cartridge OAL.
And, straight wall only other than FACTORY offerings. I don't consider any of the old "-" cartridges a bottle neck.
Leave the most minute itty bitty gray area and some one will come up with other somthing to bend the rules and ruin the fun.

[ReloaderFred]

It's the glorious story of some goobermental staff doo gooder that was a big fat cry baby .......sorry what I meant was there were some concerns about potential runoff contamination coming from Army owned lands and a DNC supporting Commander .
I really tried to be nice .

We figured it was something like that. We used to scrounge brass and fire off a few rounds there on our way to the SHOT Show in Vegas. What do they used for a "public Range" now?

As for the original question, I'd stick with revolvers and leveraction rifles that fire the same caliber and call it good.

Fred

[Harter66]

The other 8 million acres of desert .

[Harter66]

So straight wall of cal 24-50 1.75" or less in a rifle and pistol of same and of repeating design other than gas operated ?

I didn't put to much thought into​ it . It worked out though and I think it will probably fly in the future as well .

[chuckbuster]

Sounds like a good game. Curious is the 1.75" Case Length or Loaded Cartridge OAL?

Kevin

[bob208]

colt called his guns pistols. even advertised them as such. same for a double action an a single action. it is one or the other not a da and sa.

[Harter66]

I guess that should say 1.75" maximum case length .

[lefty o]

revolvers were pistols long before most of what today is called a pistol were even dreamed up.

[dragon813gt]

This seems pretty simple. A pistol caliber lever action and a corresponding revolver. This would eliminate a whole bunch of weird combinations. In my reality you'd be shooting a Winchester or Marlin rifle along w/ a S&W, Ruger or Colt revolver.

[psweigle]

A handgun has 2 distinctions. A pistol and a revolver. Pistols cover derringers and single shots as well.

As for the "line", I would use ATF as a guideline for definition.

[frankenfab]

Sounds like a neat and quick shooting match. If I was going for score, I would use a .22 rifle and pistol.

For pure fun, it would be my Marlin 444 Outfitter paired with either my BFR, or Lone Eagle Pistol.

[frankenfab]

I guess you could establish barrel length ranges for the pistol and rifle categories, and specify the pistol had to be fired with one hand to make it challenging.

[Groo]

Groo here
Just say the pistol [aka handgun] and the rifle shoot the same round.
Put a time limit on it If you don't want BP single shots.
If someone with a rifle round in a pistol [aka. 45-70] shows up, remember they kick much harder.
Few will use other than pistol rounds as ranger are short.
If needed 30 sec each will weed out most hard kickers.

[frankenfab]

That's the thing. The big handguns in rifle calibers don't kick very hard. A 7.5" 44 Mag kicks as hard as a long frame BFR. There's just so much more mass in the BFR. You could give me 3 seconds per shot with my BFR, and I would be just fine. With both hands. One handed is a whole nother matter. It harder told the big heavy guns steady with one hand.

[Harter66]

I shot the team rifle post cut with a 45-70 downloaded considerably .

I I suppose one should think out the plan before the play .
The come up with a set of rules for someone to undermine .

For the record if a guy wants to shoot 45-70 Sharps and a BFR that's fine by me . Heck just the other day I saw a BFR for sale in 30-30 .
This shoot is a Castboolits cast bullet only shoot . I've seen a shoot off where a front stuffer out shot an M40 .......it was 400 yd ,open sights ,off hand , so there are all kinds that come out to shoot what they have to shoot .

The spirit of the game was more important than the rules .
Is it fair to let a guy shoot a $2500 Kimber target master against an untouched 12/18 1917 ? Or a Mauser conversion against a 1928A2 ? In the spirit of the game that's as good as a 2nd gen SAA and an 86' Rossi 92' or a Turnbull restored 1916 92' in 44-40 or 38-40 .

Hence the example in the OP.

[GhostHawk]

Non gas operated would mean my Hipoint C9 pistol would be ok as it is recoil operated. Along with my 9mm handi rifle barrel, right?

Careful what you ask for.

[Tom W.]

revolvers were pistols long before most of what today is called a pistol were even dreamed up.
That may be, but what would the old flintlock handguns be?

[Harter66]

Non gas operated would mean my Hipoint C9 pistol would be ok as it is recoil operated. Along with my 9mm handi rifle barrel, right?

Careful what you ask for.

That was exactly the intent of the game . It does knock out several gas guns that it shouldn't . Like a Widly (SP) .

It is a different challenge and brings the all around sportsman out .

[Bigslug]

Both must use non-optic sights. Or if you're going to allow optical sights, score them in separate categories such as optic rifle, optic handgun, or dual optic.

The whole purpose of the one cartridge combo was to have a weapon of convenience with the handgun, and a long gun that maximized the potential of what's going to be a fairly gutless rifle cartridge. Not a bad plan, as it simplified the shopping for the average folks who were probably clueless about how to manage the trajectory of a serious rifle anyway.

A handgun with optics will not be a weapon of convenience.

A gutless rifle typically needs no optics, but you can do pretty sweet things with peeps and globes.

Yes there were weird exceptions, but while the typical dirt farmer living in a soddy might conceivably buy a scoped Ballard, he certainly wouldn't buy a scoped Ballard in a handgun chambering.

Potentially, I might rather WATCH this game than play it, simply to see what cool stuff people pull out of the woodwork.

I think the combo to gamer this out would be a .32-20 falling block or longer-barreled lever gun paired with one of the big-frame, target sight Smiths or Colts.

[NavyVet1959]

Once you start adding rules, you *invite* the people who live for nothing else than to game the system.

Not that there is anything inherently wrong with that. :)

We all do it to one point or another. The speed limit says 75 mph, but we know that the cops don't write tickets for anything less than 10 mph over the speed limit, so we set our cruise control at 7 mph over the speed limit. Or, we squeeze 13 months out of a 12 month car inspection since we know that the cops won't write tickets the first week or so of a new month. Or the HOA that says that fence replacements need to be approved, but repairs to existing fences do not need approval, so you "repair" it one section at a time. Things like that...

Respect to the "pistol" issue, as far as I'm concerned, "pistol" is just another word for "handgun" and "handgun" can be separated into various other types -- semi-auto, revolver, single-shot, bolt-action, lever-action, break-action, etc. The ATF does not state a maximum (or minimum) length for the barrel of a handgun.

Which brings us the the question that I'm sure is on everyone's mind... Is a pepperbox handgun a revolver with a barrel length of ZERO? Remember, the ATF does not count the cylinder in the measurement of the barrel lengths of revolvers.

[Bzcraig]

It sounds to me like the spirit of the game revolves around a cowboy / settler who typically had two pieces sharing a common cartridge. One action with changeable barrels is probably out of line, whether Contender or AR. I suspect the revolver vs. pistol distinction is moot in this context.

If it is a game it is presumably for fun, but some just can't moderate their desire to be seen as the 'winner' so I agree with 9.3x62AL on gamesmanship.

I agree with this and would add, in deference to the "cowboy/settler" theme, revolvers only.

[Bazoo]

You could list non acceptable calibers/guns and rule out most of the riffraff.

[NavyVet1959]

Imagine how exciting IPSC would be with single shot muzzle loaders.

[Petrol & Powder]

colt called his guns pistols. even advertised them as such. same for a double action an a single action. it is one or the other not a da and sa.
Considering revolvers didn't exist prior to Colt's invention, I can understand why he would label his guns as "pistols". However, as time went on, a distinction between pistols and revolvers developed.

[45workhorse]

327 fed mag. Straight walled cartridge.
A 32-20 revolver and rifle would be a sweet little set up.
Hmm, I have a 327, 8 shot Blackhawk , would have to get the new Henry in 327. When do we shoot..........

[Bmi48219]

If the plan isn't to restrict participants to Old West or pre-20th century (or some other cut-off date) firearms why not include the M-1 carbine and Ruger Single Six in same cartridge? Not a bottleneck cartridge, less than the afore mentioned 1.75" OAL and comparable accuracy at the mentioned range.
Seems like you either have to restrict cartridge/firearm selection to a niche crowd or make it an event almost everyone can enjoy.

[reddog81]

Limiting it to 1 revolver and 1 rifle would seem logical and easy enough.

[OS OK]

See...all this difficulty over the rules!
To heck with the rules, let them all play...when done, give them all a 'Trophy'.
All you need is a little socialism mixed in to calm the 'A personalities'!

Never could have fun with a big group of shooters...even with the rules ironed-out...someone's always minding your business just in case!

[44MAG#1]

Frankenfab,
Assuming you have a 45/70 BFR.
Get you some Buffalo Bore 430 gr factory loads for you BFR or an equivalent hand load and see if the BFR recoils more than a 7.5 inch BH.
Let us know how it works out.

[TexasGrunt]

Limit it to cartridges invented before 1912.

[ReloaderFred]

Limit it to cartridges invented before 1912.

That would include the 9x19 and .45 acp. The 9x19 was invented in 1902, and the .45 acp was invented in 1905. Now you're back to semi-auto rifles and handguns....

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I like the idea of revolvers and leveraction rifles..........

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Bazoo]

That'd rule out the 357, 44 mag, 41 mag and 32 H&R mag texasgrunt! I think maybe having 2 classes. Traditional, and non traditional might be the answer.

[NavyVet1959]

That would include the 9x19 and .45 acp. The 9x19 was invented in 1902, and the .45 acp was invented in 1905. Now you're back to semi-auto rifles and handguns....

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I like the idea of revolvers and leveraction rifles..........

Hope this helps.

Fred

Then make it rimmed cartridges. But then someone would bring in a Coonan 357 semi-auto...

So make it rimmed cartridges that have a dash in their name (e.g. .45-70, .44-40, etc). That should restrict it somewhat. :)

[TexasGrunt]

That would include the 9x19 and .45 acp. The 9x19 was invented in 1902, and the .45 acp was invented in 1905. Now you're back to semi-auto rifles and handguns....

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I like the idea of revolvers and leveraction rifles..........

Hope this helps.

Fred

Then make the cutoff 1900.

[rond]

I've been told a revolver is not a pistol. A pistol has a chamber that holds one round, a revolver has a cylinder that usually holds more than one round. Again, that's what I've been taught. Please don't take this as a beratement.

Pistolero was used long before the auto pistols were developed, a term for a gunfighter of the old west. To me a pistol is a handgun, whether revolver, auto or single shot.

[Harter66]

This is fun now !
The 30 carb wasn't even on the radar .
Now I have whittled down to a manageable reference set .

To turn a racing phrase " it's only cheating if you get caught " , there will always be that one guy team or group that wants to "play in the grey" .

The whole point of the challenge is to get guys away from horse power and looking at efficiency , as another play on buzz words .
We know that in some cases what works in one gun works for squat in the next . Sometimes the the short case is the fix sometimes it's the long case loaded like the short case . I'd bet there's a wild bunch shooter out there that changes just the bullet from pistol to rifle in spite of changing the case .

[rfd]

pistol = revolver = any handgun. period. always was, always will be.

a revolver was a pistol long before semi-autos were a wet gleam in john browning's eyes.

[17nut]

2 classes:

Autos and manuals.

Anything that cocks and loads the next round for you is an auto.
And that would be a Webley Fosbery also!

[Tatume]

A handgun has 2 distinctions. A pistol and a revolver. Pistols cover derringers and single shots as well. As for the "line", I would use ATF as a guideline for definition.

Three. Where would you group the Ruger Hawkeye?

[44MAG#1]

If this is not a scantioned match and must go by scantioned rules what does it matter. If this is just a fun match let someone fire a handgun. Meaning it must be fired with either one hand or two held extended from the body.
It's fun why complicate something that is fun, not scantioned and is something to further the shooting sports.
We have enough rules in life without some "brilliant" mind coming up with more.

[psweigle]

Three. Where would you group the Ruger Hawkeye?

It is a single shot handgun, there for a pistol.

[Tatume]

It is a single shot handgun, therefore a pistol.

Not true. A pistol has the chamber integral with the barrel. The Hawkeye does not. Nor does it revolve.

[9.3X62AL]

This thread's progression illustrates my original point succinctly. Rules make a far better shield than sword.

[NavyVet1959]

Let's not forget that there have been semi-auto revolvers.

If you look up the history of the word, "pistol" came about long before revolvers or semi-autos were invented. The word is equivalent to "handgun". The people these days who want to change the definition and make it a subset of handguns are incorrect.

firearm = handgun | longgun
longgun = rifle | shotgun
handgun = pistol
handgun = revolver | semi-auto | break-action | bolt-action | pepperbox | ...

...

[frankenfab]

Frankenfab,
Assuming you have a 45/70 BFR.
Get you some Buffalo Bore 430 gr factory loads for you BFR or an equivalent hand load and see if the BFR recoils more than a 7.5 inch BH.
Let us know how it works out.

Nope. It's a 444. My standard load is either the Speer 300 grain soft point, or 300 grain Hornady XTP over 48.0 grains H322.

[Tatume]

If you look up the history of the word, "pistol" came about long before semi-autos were invented.

Non sequitur. Pistols predate revolvers. There were single barreled pistols, and multiple barreled pistols, long before revolvers or semi-automatic pistols were invented. Some pistols had multiple barrels with integral chambers. They were joined together, and revolved about a central spindle and past a single hammer or cock. They could be considered both pistol and revolver at the same time. Some had multiple chambers in a cylinder that rotated past a single barrel, such as in a modern revolver. But the central spindle was itself a barrel with an integral chamber. It is two guns in one, a revolver married to a pistol.

Precision in language is important. If all words have the same meaning, how would we communicate?

[NavyVet1959]

Non sequitur. Pistols predate revolvers. There were single barreled pistols, and multiple barreled pistols, long before revolvers or semi-automatic pistols were invented. Some pistols had multiple barrels with integral chambers. They were joined together, and revolved about a central spindle and past a single hammer or cock. They could be considered both pistol and revolver at the same time. Some had multiple chambers in a cylinder that rotated past a single barrel, such as in a modern revolver. But the central spindle was itself a barrel with an integral chamber. It is two guns in one, a revolver married to a pistol.

Precision in language is important. If all words have the same meaning, how would we communicate?

I think we are saying the same thing... pistol = handgun. Revolver and semi-auto are subsets of pistol/handgun.

[Tom W.]

And the green grass grew all around​ all around and the green grass grew all around​.......

[Tatume]

I think we are saying the same thing... pistol = handgun. Revolver and semi-auto are subsets of pistol/handgun.

We are not saying the same thing. All pistols are handguns, but not all handguns are pistols. Revolvers are not (in general) pistols, although revolvers are (usually, but not always) handguns.

My dog is a Lakeland terrier. All Lakeland terriers are dogs, but not all dogs are Lakeland terriers.

[44MAG#1]

The definition police have arrived. Ready to billy stick the doubting, the uneducated and the lackadaisical into their way of believing.

[NavyVet1959]

We are not saying the same thing. All pistols are handguns, but not all handguns are pistols. Revolvers are not (in general) pistols, although revolvers are (usually, but not always) handguns.

My dog is a Lakeland terrier. All Lakeland terriers are dogs, but not all dogs are Lakeland terriers.

OK, there are some revolvers that are rifles. Just like there are break action handguns and break action rifles. And bolt action handguns and bolt action rifles.

The term pistol was around before revolvers or semi-autos. It came into the English language around 1550 -- long before revolvers or semi-autos.

[Texas by God]

The Hawkeye's chamber is in the barrel. The breechblock is in the cylinder window.

[44MAG#1]

ohhh, ouch.

[Tatume]

The definition police have arrived. Ready to billy stick the doubting, the uneducated and the lackadaisical into their way of believing.

argumentum ad hominem

[ErnieBishop]

I went to a shoot where a "new" game was introduced . A 2 gun companion shoot the rules are pretty simple . A rifle and a pistol and 1 box of ammo on an 11" scored target at 25 yd 5 shots from each . In the spirit of the 1 cartridge cowboy/settler .
Examples .
45 ACP in a 1911 and a 945 High Point
45 Colts in a Henry or 92 and some revolver .
For those into overkill ,
A BFR and a 1895 in 45-70
An X frame 500 Smith and a Handy rifle
A Grizzly 9mm Mag and a custom AR or rebarreled MPV
We even let a 20ga with a chamber insert and a M19 play
I just felt like it needed a line at a Super 14 30-30 on an Encore and a 16" Encore with a butt stock .

I guess that would make me a jerk if I said " go ahead use the Buntline and the 94'" . But in reality the Contender guy could take his 30-30 or 17 hornet or 500 Smith 16" bbl and slap it on the pistol grip frame shoot the first 5 then Chang the frame or grip to the butt stock and shoot the other 5 shots .
I suppose it could have a 2 min clock .
It should in all fairness I guess exclude Mares legs and an AR with a rifle and separate pistol lower as well .

So if it were your 2 gun , 1 cartridge , 1 hand gun ,1 rifle , where would you call the line ?

You went to a match and they had their own rules-You accept those rules and have fun.
No matter what, some people will complain.
If you decide to run your own match with different rules, some people will come and they will complain.
If you do your own match, adjust as time goes by-It's your match.
But, some people will still complain.

[44MAG#1]

Or you beat them with the " billy stick of definition" until they see it the rule makers way. Or just shoot in an informal match and let everyone have fun.

[rond]

The phrase " Hotter than a $2 pistol. " is about cheap revolvers.