For thought and meditation

[rl69]

It is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.

—Hebrews 9:27

One of the most frequent complaints against the church has been about hellfire-and-brimstone preachers. “I don’t like that kind of preaching,” people say.

But my question is where are these preachers? When is the last time you heard a hellfire-and-brimstone preacher? I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen one of them on television, much less heard a mention of Hell. I see messages preached on how to be successful and how to prosper. But we have to tell the whole truth.

We have to look at this topic biblically, not emotionally, and remember that life comes to an end for everyone. One thing is clear: We all will die and enter the afterlife. Ecclesiastes 3:1–2 tells us, “To everything there is a season, a time for every purpose under heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die.”

Jesus spent more time talking about Hell than anyone else. Of the forty parables He told, more than half of them relate to God’s eternal judgment of sinners. That is because Hell is a real place for real people. J. I. Packer said, “An endless hell can no more be removed from the New Testament than an endless heaven can be.”

Our greatest motive for getting out there to share the gospel should be so people won’t go to Hell. That is the bottom line. If we tell people they will have fulfillment, peace, and joy if they believe in Jesus, that is true. But frankly, those are fringe benefits. The greatest aspect of the gospel, which means “good news,” is that we don’t have to go to Hell. Instead, we can go to Heaven.

If you know people who aren’t Christians, then they are headed to Hell. The question is what are you doing to reach them?

[Wayne Smith]

Without a solid theology of Sin there is no need for Christ. This is the failing (heresy) of the Health and Wealth movement. They have no theology of Sin and thus it is a feel good, meaningless faith with no basis for need.

[Down South]

It's a sign of the times...

[USMC87]

Amen, I totally agree.

[WRideout]

A theology that does not convict us of sin is empty. A theology that does not acknowledge God's grace is hopeless.

Wayne

[Bzcraig]

"itching ears" comes to mind. We spent nearly 10 years attending a church that talked about sin, divorce/marriage, rebellion or obedience maybe 3 times and then in watered down terms. The church we found when we moved doesn't shy away from it.

[Ickisrulz]

Can anyone tell me where the idea of everlasting torment is found in the Old Testament? I know of no such teaching. Adam was sentenced to death. There was no explanation of what this meant. So I assume none was required. If Adam had killed a thirsty mosquito he was familiar with the concept.

Jesus' audiences (and John the Baptists' too) wished to escape the punishment for their sins. Did these audiences understand the punishment as ceasing to exist or an en eternity of suffering?

Apart from the biblical muddiness, the idea of eternal suffering seems to be very cruel and many Christians are reluctant to proclaim this message even if it makes up part of their beliefs. It just seems too severe for a loving God even though he will judge the wicked.

Therefore we seldom see the type of messages proclaimed by Jonathan Edwards. When hell is proclaimed it is often described as psychological punishment rather than physical.

[Bzcraig]

Can anyone tell me where the idea of everlasting torment is found in the Old Testament?

What do you think of this Isaiah 66:24? And try Daniel 12:1-2. Maybe?

[Ickisrulz]

What do you think of this Isaiah 66:24? And try Daniel 12:1-2. Maybe?


These have the seed of New Testament ideas, but would anyone contemporary with the writing get the idea they meant eternal torment? Like many of the NT verses used to support the idea, the instruments of punishment and consequences of punishment are everlasting. Not the punishment itself.

[Blackwater]

Thanks, RL. Good post today. Hell is indeed a place engineered and designed to contain Satan and his minions. But the deniers cannot enter Heaven, because of their disbelief, so .... there's no other place FOR them to go, but hell. That's my view, and it avoids all the traditional and long standing arguments about what hell is and what it isn't. For me, if it were important enough to us just exactly what it was like, He'd have told us. He only spoke in very generalized terms, and gave us enough info to know we do NOT want to go there! Perhaps we don't have the ABILITY to truly understand what it really is??? I don't know. All I know is it's right to worship and be thankful to our Lord for all He's done for us. And I know if we obey the advice and instruction He's left for us, we'll be MUCH happier and satisfied in life, than if we don't. I leave most of the other arguable theological points up to those to whom it means more than it does to me. I know these things have their place. And they can even be interesting. But until one who's been there comes and tells me what it's like, I'll keep my respect for what I don't and maybe can't know on "high" and just leave that stuff for those better equipped than I am to deal with them. Not saying they don't matter. Just that I'm humble enough to let those better equipped than I to deal with them. I DO listen, though.

[Bzcraig]

These have the seed of New Testament ideas, but would anyone contemporary with the writing get the idea they meant eternal torment? Like many of the NT verses used to support the idea, the instruments of punishment and consequences of punishment are everlasting. Not the punishment itself.

Actually I do believe those contemporary to the writing would have understood that. So to make sure I understand, is it your understanding that Hell is not a place of eternal punishment?

[tarbe]

What do you think of this Isaiah 66:24? And try Daniel 12:1-2. Maybe?

I believe the Daniel passage is referencing the end of the age spoken of by Jesus at the Olivet Discourse (70AD destruction of the Temple and Old Covenant system of sacrifice).

[Ickisrulz]

Actually I do believe those contemporary to the writing would have understood that. So to make sure I understand, is it your understanding that Hell is not a place of eternal punishment?


I lean towards annihilation of the wicked after a period of punishment.

The key is how we interpret the metaphors used to describe hell. The character of God must be also considered.

[Bzcraig]

I lean towards annihilation of the wicked after a period of punishment.

The key is how we interpret the metaphors used to describe hell. The character of God must be also considered.

Interesting. Before we go any further (and I do wish to for personal edification if nothing else), my questions are not necessarily intended to be a challenge to your understanding (I would certainly indicate it as a challenge if I intend it) and even if we disagree about our understandings on such topics, as long as we agree on the essentials of faith, all the rest is simply a matter of discussion.

Regarding annihilation after a period of punishment; is this opinion formed based on the lake of fire being the final annihilation of all sin?

I subscribe to understanding the Bible literally. I do so because it is far to confusing for me to try and separate what is intended metaphorically and what is intended as literal.

I agree completely about your statement regarding God's nature. In fact, the lake of fire for me is symbolic of His Justice and I always default to this when a loved ones dies apart from salvation.

[Bzcraig]

I don't disagree with that.

[Ickisrulz]

Interesting. Before we go any further (and I do wish to for personal edification if nothing else), my questions are not necessarily intended to be a challenge to your understanding (I would certainly indicate it as a challenge if I intend it) and even if we disagree about our understandings on such topics, as long as we agree on the essentials of faith, all the rest is simply a matter of discussion.

Regarding annihilation after a period of punishment; is this opinion formed based on the lake of fire being the final annihilation of all sin?

I subscribe to understanding the Bible literally. I do so because it is far to confusing for me to try and separate what is intended metaphorically and what is intended as literal.

I agree completely about your statement regarding God's nature. In fact, the lake of fire for me is symbolic of His Justice and I always default to this when a loved ones dies apart from salvation.

There has been quite a bit of work on the subject of annihilation of the unsaved. Most of it covers the same Bible passages and how they should be interpreted. Edward Fudge has a couple of concise books for the modern reader. But this is not a recent argument and many theologians consider the teaching of eternal conscious torment a horrible error.

All descriptions of hell in the Bible are metaphorical. There is no literal description of hell or the lake of fire in the Bible.

When Jesus spoke of "hell" he used the word "Gehenna" which was an actual perpetual fire outside Jerusalem where trash and some dead bodies were disposed of. Jesus suggested Hell is like Gehenna. Jesus used other pictures of fire to show how the wicked are disposed of. If you take the symbolism to its logical conclusion, trash is consumed by fire and exists no more. The fire is not extinguish by adding fuel to it. It is in effect an eternal fire.

So yes, my belief is that unbelievers/wicked will be annihilated when throw into the lake of fire. They will cease to exist.

People like to hold on to the doctrine of eternal torment for unbelievers because that is what they have been taught from an early age. But careful examination of the passages dealing with hell do not clearly teach this. When dealing with the symbolism describing hell and the imprecise use of language in biblical times an argument can be made for either annihilation or eternal torment from the text. In my mind it comes down to the character of God. I just don't think God would sentence people to an infinite punishment for finite crimes. I suspect the wicked and/or unbelievers are punished and then given peace through annihilation.

[claude]

Just my two cents, but the error arises in that the punishment is eternal, the punishing is not. Once one is erased (blotted out Ps 69:28)from the book of life, they are eternally gone. In fact they are not even remembered, I base that thinking on these verses;

Isa_25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Rev_7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Rev_21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Taken at face value, they answer the difficulties that arise from not understanding, the term eternal denotes time both fore and aft;
H6924
קדמה קדם
qedem qêdmâh
keh'-dem, kayd'-maw
From H6923; the front, of palce (absolutely the fore part, relatively the East) or time (antiquity); often used adverbially (before, anciently, eastward): - aforetime,

H5769
עלם עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future),

God in His mercy performs a mind wipe of those persons and everything about them, they cease to exist eternally, as though they had never been.

[Bzcraig]

This is good stuff guys, the kind of dialogue I really enjoy because "learning" takes place. I confess my belief of eternal punishment comes from what I've been taught by those whom I trusted and excluded my own personal study of the matter. It just made sense to me that if there is eternal life there would be eternal punishment​. Therefore, I will now take some time to look more closely at this including a Greek/Hebrew word study (e.g. Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and whatever else comes up). When I lead men's bible studies, I used this format. Take a passage or idea, study it, then get back to together and share your thoughts and conclusions without fear of being dismissed or made fun of. I do not discount the work of the Holy Spirit in this either.

[jmort]

"I lean towards annihilation of the wicked after a period of punishment."

Same here. But, I feel no certainty on this. Not sure it is critical to salvation that we have consensus on this issue. In fact, I doubt it.