SAECO Mould History

[FISH4BUGS]

Does anyone have any history of SAECO moulds and/or the company (Santa Anita Engineering COmpany?) ?
Many years ago (probably 20 or more) I bought two 45 cal moulds from one Paul Fitz Jones, who he represented himself to be elderly and was the West Coast Distributor of Star Reloading products. He was dying of cancer and was clearing out everything he owned.
These moulds were supposedly among many that a special run was made for just him by SAECO, with meehanite alloy steel blocks and special rosewood handles. They are quite nice, and I have only tested one of them. They are the 230gr bb GI Ball profile and a H&G #68 bb copy.
These 4 cavity moulds are pretty hefty and they are clearly very high quality moulds. I have the original red and white boxes (marked Carpinteria CA with the original SAECO logo) and the original wrapping.
I would like to get some data on the ORIGINAL SAECO Company if anyone has it.
I can't find out much with Google
Thanks!

[alamogunr]

I can't help you with information about SAECO, but I remember the offers of various molds by Paul Fitz Jones. I would have liked to have acquired certain ones but couldn't afford them at the time.

At that time too, there weren't the custom mold makers that we have today. There were a few but most were somewhat specialized. NEI was the only one that was somewhat generalized in his catalog. It was a sad day for casting when he passed away.

[FISH4BUGS]

john:
Thanks for the info.
Anything you have, even about Paul Fitz Jones, would be helpful.
Paul was a character to say the least.
I paid way too much for these moulds at the time but I actually believed his story about SAECO doing a special run of moulds for him. These moulds, with rosewood handles are beautiful works.
I called Redding today and they are putting together some info from the purchase of SAECO.
I think I smell an article forming here.....that's more fun than working!

[FISH4BUGS]

I am checking with the Carpinteria Historical Museum. They have archives of old newspaper articles that MIGHT have info on early days of SAECO. Plus with what comes from Redding it might make for an article.
Sure beats working for a living. That's the problem with ADD....I get focused on something that interests me and I eat it up.

[LAH]

NEI was the only one that was somewhat generalized in his catalog. It was a sad day for casting when he passed away.

Walt was an interesting guy & a joy to speak with.

[Char-Gar]

I am fuzzy on the dates etc. etc., but SAECO bought out Cramer and continued to produce Cramer design bullet molds marketed as SAECO/Cramer. I bought on of their molds in 1966 which was the #11 a 38/357 PB SWC. I still have it and it is my go to mold for that caliber.

After a period of time SAECO dropped the Cramer name and bought out bullet molds of their own design. They are still in business and produce very good molds.

[kokomokid]

A good several page story about Paul Jones in the spring 2014 #85 issue of black powder cartridge magazine.
In later years Paul would only make one mould per day and might call and talk for half an hour to make sure what I wanted. He would always say I can only guarantee .0005 in that alloy mix. His moulds dropped bullets that look like jewels.

[Kraschenbirn]

I've acquired a few SAECO molds over the years and, if all weren't SCs, there's no doubt I'd retire some Lyman DCs. Quality of these 'old' molds easily equals or betters anything that comes in an "orange" or "green" box today.

Bill

[FISH4BUGS]

A good several page story about Paul Jones in the spring 2014 #85 issue of black powder cartridge magazine.
In later years Paul would only make one mould per day and might call and talk for half an hour to make sure what I wanted. He would always say I can only guarantee .0005 in that alloy mix. His moulds dropped bullets that look like jewels.
Any idea how to get a copy of that?
It might contain some useful info.

[kokomokid]

Check with spg-black powder for the older magazines. phone 660 988 40 nine nine

[omgb]

I swallowed his line...deep. I bought a Star sizer from him and two moulds, I huge 6 hole 50 cal maxiball mould and a GI type 6 hole 45 mould. Both were excellent moulds.

[omgb]

Saeco bullet lubes

Turk, I was the distributor for the Saeco company founded by Bob Modisette in 1947 and I represented him in the 1970s until his death in 1978. Bobs daughter took over and I stayed on until she sold the company to a fellow that started cheapening the quality so I quit in 1979. HW lasted for 2 years and the company then sold to Redding company who is also making a cheaper quality product.

My founding California Saeco Company only sold one highly successful bullet lube the Saeco "Green" Lube which I wholeheartedly sold. I have quite a collection of the bullet lube formulas used by decades of top competitors and the California Saeco Secret green formula was the best.

I have had no contact with the current 4th company with the Saeco name and have no idea of the formulations and usefullness of their bullet lubricants.

Unfortunately many of the quality materials used in bulletcasting tools and lubricant formulas up to 1980 and the sales of the companies at the death or retirement of the founders are considered too expensive to be used in todays market where "Made on the Cheap" is a current motto.

It is an unfortunate fact that buying a famous name does not insure for very long the same quality the original name was known for.

Paul Jones
I plan on compiling a Bulletcasting booklet this winter along with a
Star Reloader operation manual



I swallowed his line...deep. I bought a Star sizer from him and two moulds, I huge 6 hole 50 cal maxiball mould and a GI type 6 hole 45 mould. Both were excellent moulds.

[omgb]

The current Saeco molds are second best to the originals in my collection as the originals used Meehanite Cast Iron that is too expensive for current mold makers today and the metal is mainly used for the bases or foundations of computer controlled CNC machines. Also Bob did the unheard proceedure of sending his molds to a space age machine shop to have the mold tops perfectly mated to the sprue bottoms by "Blanchard Grinding" and the current company only uses a spring washer to hold the sprue down..

The original molds made the most identical weight bullets ever made that have won the most matches since 1947 of any molds and the originals are multi lifetime molds. Every one of the thousands of molds I sold decades ago are still in use. They can be recognized by having no name stamped on them other than the mold number on the sprue and with patterned gunstock walnut mold handles in a white California Saeco address box in old timers reloading rooms.
I can identify which company made any Saeco name mold if asked and their quality. Any mold made over 4 cavities with the Saeco name is Junk.

The current younger generation does not know the difference as current products are made "On The Cheap to still sell at high prices.

Paul Jones
Retired and Loving It
http://www.topica.com/lists/BulletcastersBulletin Board

[omgb]

Judging Copies

You cannot judge what you have not seen.

With having in your hands a founders California Saeco Mold and a Redding Saeco copy comparing the sprues visually and opening and closing the sprues makes the difference very obvious. Also checking the resulting bullets for identical weights.

The Calif Saeco Powder measure micro setting drums are honed to a mirror finish and ground to an accuracy of .0003 and the measure body to accept an "X"grade plug gage. And was made for extreme accuracy for competitors.

Comparing an original Star Luber that has never needed gaskets with the aluminium copy that needs and eats gaskets is also obvious. Compare the weight of the original with the aluminum copy. Ask a commercial bulletcaster that has both.

The originals are excellent and collectible now. Years from now the The copies won't be.

Men swear by what they have and can afford.
John Paul

[omgb]

A final word on Star machines from both Mr. Waters and Mr. Jones...
Kenneth L. Walters:
During his lifetime, from when he designed the machine, until he got too old to build them anymore, all Star's were assembled by Ellord Mott. As long as Ellord did the work they performed flawlessly. When he got too old no one else knew how to do the assembly (it wasn't as easy as it might have looked) so qualify fell off FAST. Maybe Star only sold two machines their last year but if so it was only because Ellord was gone.

Certainly the company failed to modernize. I talked to Ellord at his workbench which he build in the 20's. Still they flourished as long as he made the machines.

It seems sad to me that the greatest progressive ever had such an unwarrented death.
Paul Jones:
I have been ill so have not said much lately but I retired in 1979 with several dozen each of the reloaders and the lubers that are now gone and I have three personal Stars left a .38 progressive in excellent condition and two .45acp Universals. I have 8 new heads, A new die set for .30M1 carbine, .38 and .45 double Lifetyme carbide ring sizing dies and hundreds of small parts. New operating handles, primer magazines, seating dies, taper crimp dies, nuts, springs and am reserving my replacement primer parts kits to sell with my remaining loaders to give millons round lifetimes. Have new heavy duty foot long powder reservoir tubes, bundles of 6 3 foot case feeding tubes to fit in C-H rotating case clusters that can be adapted to fit on a Star with a piece of electrical conduit as my Star models are sold. Swivel handles, Star Luber dies, 3 of my personal lubers left.

Lifetyme .45acp 7/8ths carbide dies

Oh everything mentioned is original and NEW with the exception of my own 3 Stars that I reconditioned as the Star Reloader Reconditioning Center and Ira Wilkerson referred customers to me. Rob his son in the 70's could not hold down any job so hung around Star hoping to replace his dad when he retired. I was good friends with Ira and Rob was jealous of me so I refused to have anything to do with Rob after 1979. Ira was a great manager and person.

lots of BE, WW231 and 700X powder slides O and OO and half inch and 5/8ths inch powder magazine base spacers for larger slides. have original Star catalogs and can make copies of all Star literature I received as the top Star dealer in the 70's.

Also Have several dozen original Blue Booklets I wrote for the Star. "How To Live With And Love Your Progressive Reloader" printed for me by the C-H company and placed in the Auto Champ reloaders to keep their reloaders out of trouble with the Champ that I had a hand in designing. Have hundreds of auto champ parts and caliber conversions and for the C-H 333X and 444X presses.

Have 5 calibers 79 total remaining of the 965 original Saeco 4 cavity Custom precision molds I retired with and they are .30, .32, .38, .41 and .45acp.

Fitz Pistol Grips and Fitz lifetime slip top hunter Red ammo boxes that can be seen in old timers reloading rooms as they never wear out. 50 case capacity.

Also lots of Hulme top plates and no other Hulme parts remaining
Have Brewster 1,000 capacity small primer turrets and dozens of clear primer pick up tubes, Indexers and extra Brewster powder reservoir tubes.

All new and Mint parts ask for lists while they remain
Paul Fitz Jones coffeyn1 at castles.com
PO Box 972 Vacaville Ca 95696-0972

[FISH4BUGS]

Thank you!
More info.
I am trying to find out about the early days of SAECO but this pleasant diversion onto Paul Fitz Jones brings back memories.
He really WAS an old crank. I tried to get the price down a bit and boy you would think I had asked him to share his wife with me! I got the message very quickly and very clearly - the price was the price.
I have two of those moulds still in their white California address boxes. I'll use them and keep all the original packing and boxes put away.
I'll keep digging to see what else I can find from Redding. I am swapping emails with the Executive VP of Redding. He is doing some digging in their records also.
Such fun we can have!....and thanks for the recollections.

[omgb]

I think we are talking about two different Paul Joneses. The guy associated with SAECO was Paul Fitz Jones, he wasn't a mold maker, but he was an extraordinary salesman. He passed prior to 2014, closer to 2007 IIRC




A good several page story about Paul Jones in the spring 2014 #85 issue of black powder cartridge magazine.
In later years Paul would only make one mould per day and might call and talk for half an hour to make sure what I wanted. He would always say I can only guarantee .0005 in that alloy mix. His moulds dropped bullets that look like jewels.

[FISH4BUGS]

I think we are talking about two different Paul Joneses. The guy associated with SAECO was Paul Fitz Jones, he wasn't a mold maker, but he was an extraordinary salesman. He passed prior to 2014, closer to 2007 IIRC
I was talking about Paul Fitz Jones, and yes he WAS an extraordinary salesman. He did the Fitz Grips also. He was also a Star Distributor and also had something to do with the Carpenteria SAECO Company. I think he was a distribuor for their moulds also.
He was (reportedly) in his 70's in the 1980's when I bought these moulds from him.
Maybe sometimes he did not use his middle name ?

[kokomokid]

I agree that we are talking two different Paul Jones. A Paul Jones custom mould will bring a bonus at auction and he was tied in with Redding to some extent. He retired in 2014 if my memory is correct. His shop was on telegraph road LA CA.

[Rick459]

Omgb
did the Saeco powder measure look something like this. there is no adjustment for the powder just extra rotors for different powders.
Rick
197478

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[Rick459]

Also were would one find I'd marks on a 5 cavity Cramer mould?197479197480

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[LAH]

The guy associated with SAECO was Paul Fitz Jones, he wasn't a mold maker, but he was an extraordinary salesman. He passed prior to 2014, closer to 2007 IIRC

That's him. Hate to say anything since he has passed but he sold me a Saeco mould claiming it to be a Keith bullet: "Saeco Bullet Mould 294411." It wasn't close. I asked to return it as it didn't look anything like the bullet he pictured in his ad. His response: The picture was just an artist rendering. The picture looked to be perfect Keith but the again the bullet cast wasn't close.

[FISH4BUGS]

That's him. Hate to say anything since he has passed but he sold me a Saeco mould claiming it to be a Keith bullet: "Saeco Bullet Mould 294411." It wasn't close. I asked to return it as it didn't look anything like the bullet he pictured in his ad. His response: The picture was just an artist rendering. The picture looked to be perfect Keith but the again the bullet cast wasn't close.

You are kind to not speak ill of the departed. But you are absolutely correct. He was a salesman through and through. I only bought the two moulds from him and he neglected to tell me they were bevel based moulds. I have grown to like bevel based moulds (less case mouth belling) so it all worked out.
I paid stupid money for these moulds ($150 each in 2000 or so) but they were new in the box, and have rosewood handles. if he told the truth, these were meehanite alloy.
SAECO was an aerospace machining company that worked to extraordinarily close tolerances. The early Carpenteria SAECO's were works to behold. They are almost....and I mean ALMOST as good as the Hensley & Gibbs moulds of their day.
I'll post more info when it becomes available.

[Old Miller]

So, I recently went to a gun range with friends. It reminded me how enjoyable a sport it is. I was sitting the internet and thought I would look up a company I used to work at... Yep SAECO when it was in Carpenteria. I read your post and while I don't believe I ever met any of the sales reps, I did work in the machine shop from about 1978 to mid 1980. I started on the drill press, and working 6 months I was on the upright mill making molds. I signed up for Cast Boolits today to see if I could help with the history of these dates. If this is something you still have interest in let me know. Thanks

[LAH]

Welcome d Miller. It will be great having you here.

[lotech]

I probably have a dozen or more SAECO (Redding) moulds, none of which were purchased recently. I have moulds by many makers including Eagan, Hoch, and (Walt Melander's) NEI. The SAECO's compare favorably with the best.

[Old Miller]

While I was working in Carpenteria, I thought we were the best. We took our time and had a pot going all day. I would spot check at least 3 times a day to make sure tolerances were being held. Everything was hands on.
We even had a line of single moulds designed by Barry Darr. While those were not hot sellers, the single shot people loved them.

[COUSIN DANIEL]

I ran across this by accident, I was looking for one of paul fitz jones 45/70 molds on Google and this popped up.

As far as I am aware he is alive in California, in 2021 I acquired several Dillon rl1000 and star progressive and universal reloader, in my search for parts I tried Facebook market place and found a post by Paul Jones from 2013 marketing star parts and other items of interest. I made contact but no response, his profile show him being last active on Easter 2020 on his birthday.

I reached out to a person who referenced him as dad, I stated my purpose and provide phone#, emails, etc and I was told this was forwarded to his son who was handling the items.

I have never received any correspondence to date, and I have not found an obituary so the prospect of untouched star parts,Dillon rl1000s, saeco molds, fitz ammo safe boxes, and fitz 10x grips lives on on my opinion

[HWooldridge]

This will date me but I bought all of my casting equipment and molds new, directly from SAECO. I still have their lead pot and lubrisizer, along with multiple molds. The mold blocks are made from a grade of fine cast iron (meehanite?) and cast like a dream.

[John Boy]

If memory serves me, when PJ, Paul Jones stopped cutting blocks his son took over until the business was closed. The molds were marked differently between Those made by Paul and son
Cost was $175 and at auction now are being bought for $225 to $275. Saw one of his Creedmoor’s go for $325 on eBay

[John Boy]

If memory serves me, when PJ, Paul Jones stopped cutting blocks his son took over until the business was closed. The molds were marked differently between Those made by Paul and son
…. I bought all of mine at $175 and at auction now are being bought for $225 to $275. Saw one of his Creedmoor’s go for $325 on eBay

[oldhenry]

I have 4 SAECO molds that I purchased from Paul Jones in the '80s. Three are pre-Redding & bear no identifying stampings on the mold blocks. The sprue plates have the stamping: SAECO above "custom precision". The Redding (copy?) has all stampings on the mold blocks & no stampings on the sprue plate. Mine are not collector quality: they are well used but not abused. I bought them all from Paul Jones: I'd order by phone. I bought 2 more from him that I no longer own. I also bought a Star lube sizer & a Lortone tumbler from him: both of which have given me trouble free service. The Paul Jones that I did business with was bullish on Lortone tumblers & Star products.

[omgb]

I knew Mr Jones having bought many molds and grips from him and talking on the phone many times. I liked the guy. He could sell freezers to Eskimos. I liked his molds but never found his iron to be superior to other iron. Mehanite or some strange name, I don’t recall but he sure promoted it as a wonder metal for casting. The last mold I bought from him was in the late 90s early 2000. It was a six cavity .50 cal maxie mold. Beautiful mold but just the devil to hoist.


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