M48A- good as it gets or am I a perfectionist?

[jonk]

So I've found that 17 gr of SR 4759, or 27 or 29 gr of IMR 4895 (but not 28!) will all deliver 2.75" groups at 100 yards out of my Yugo M48A. I used pillow stuffing dacron on the 4895 loads and no stuffing on the 4759. Quenched wheelweight 170gr FNGC bullet lubed with 50/50. Mixed brass, some W-W, some Rem-UMC, some PRVI, some Mitchells, some trimmed and sized FA 1930s vintage USGI 30-06 cases. Wolf LR primers.

Now some might say, some just might say that given the mix of brass, that that is pretty darned good accuracy. And whoever would say I should try the load with all one brass type would be right, and I will. However the question is...

Would you be happy with a 2.75" group from a military gun or not? I mean, if I have the elevation and windage right that will hold 9 ring or better all day long. I confess that my M1 and 03 using condom bullets won't do any better, at least with my eyes. Yet some part of me just doesn't want to give up trying to find an even better load.

What do you think? I ask b/c I am thinking of using the M48A at Perry in the vintage match this year. I have a few weeks yet to tinker.

[Jack Stanley]

If you are happy with the load , ride with it . I would suggest though , that if you are taking that rifle to Perry that you would be advised to shoot it at two hundred yards first . Having some time to tinker is a plus in this game too :-D

Jack

[jonk]

Oh yes, 200 yards is this weekend. I've found guns- and loads- that did gangbusters at 50 or 100 yards and lost their oomph somewhere on the way to 200... :-)

[RU shooter]

I'd be happy with that kind of a group average. especially with issued Mauser sights which are not very well suited for target work to say the least.

[chaos]

I have a couple of friends who purchased some of the M48's. Had the sights and barrel turned down, mounted scopes to them , and they shoot as good as any hunting gun out there. Sub 1 inch groups all day long with handloads. (jacketed bullets)

CDNN investments had a pile of them some years back that were the Mitchell's Mausers. I got one of them for something like $250. Has the Mitchell's markings on it and all. It's very pretty and I wouldnt dream of "sporterizing it". It shoots much more accurately than I can......althoug i haven't shot in in Several years.

I cant see with irons @100 well enough to shoot the groups you mention.

Those rifles are absolute gems.

[carpetman]

Mitchell Mauser---Sounds like the fishing gear people---with fishing gear would seem casting stuff would work better.

[mike in co]

try going to a rem 9 1/2 primer....sort the cases by weight. an odd case might be causing things that fly out of the group.

but it aint bad the way it is.

mike in co

[GrizzLeeBear]

I would not be content with 2.75" groups. But I have good eyes still. Mauser sights do leave something to be desired. I have a 1912-61 Chilean mauser in 7.62 Nato that will shoot consistent 1.5" groups with cast boolits.

Have you looked at the bedding of the rifle? Mausers are supposed to be supported at the rear screw/tang, the front screw/recoil lug and at the end of the stock just behind the nose cap (not the nose cap itself). You can not glass bed the rifle in the vintage match rules, but you can use wood, paper, etc. shims to achieve bedding in this way as well as sanding & filing wood where you don't want contact with the barrel and action.
Also make sure the handguard is not touching the barrel. If you need to, sand the barrel channel with sandpaper on a dowel rod so that it doesn't contact the barrel. Be careful not to sand the bottom flats, you want those to rest on the stock and keep the handguard off the barrel. Also, the front barrel band should not touch the barrel. You may have to file the underside of it a bit to get it to clear.
Probably more than you want to do before Perry, but something to look at for future matches.

[jonk]

GrizzLeeBear, under rule 6.3.4 (4) of the CMP rules it states: (4) The use of shims made of any material is prohibited. The presence of
fi berglass, epoxy, glue or any other fi ller is prohibited. Laminated stocks
and stocks made of synthetic materials are prohibited.

It doesn't say anything about removing material so I can sand, yes, if needed, however I still feel that goes against the spirit of 'as issued foreign military rifle.'

As for sorting cases by weight- I never saw the point of it. It seems much more logical to sort the cases by volume- i.e. filling with water and weighing that way- but that is not something I am going to undertake at this point. Unless someone would care to enlighten me as to why sorting by weight would matter?

[45 2.1]

8mms, almost any version, will do much better than that. A heavier, approx. 200 gr + boolit will help. Most 8mms like a maximum for boolit weight charge of Unique with the boolit cast out of straight WW and air cooled. The Saeco 190 gr. boolit is a very good long range boolit if it fits your rifle. Dutchs first 8mm GB does very well out of 8mms as should the second 8mm Silohuette GB.

[jonk]

I have the 8mm Maximum midsouth mold. It does very well in my Gew 88 but I have never had much luck with it in anything else. Besides, the throat on this gun (unlike many 8mm rifles I've encountered) is fairly tight. I'm hitting the lands even with all the grooves on the 170 gr bullet inside the neck. A longer bullet would protrude WAY down into the case. While I've never felt that that was as big of a deal as some make it out to be, I'd not be comfortable trying it with the dacron load. Still, something to consider. I'll cast up a batch for my last test set and try some without filler.

[GrizzLeeBear]

... under rule 6.3.4 (4) of the CMP rules it states: (4) The use of shims made of any material is prohibited....

Well, I'll be. Just looked at the 2008 rules. You are correct, sir.

Seemed to me there used to be something in the rules about "shims of wood, paper, etc. similar to those used by original arsenals to achieve bedding" etc. etc. Either it was changed sometime, or I got that from some other competitions rules.

Anyway, thanks for pointing it out!

[kjg]

like Jonk said my fn is real darn tight, finally got a 311299, that works wonders, the boolit just slightly engages the rifling now, i don't like the boolit way down inside the neck, now I am enjoying shooting it more. kjg

[GrizzLeeBear]

Well, I'll be. Just looked at the 2008 rules. You are correct, sir.

Seemed to me there used to be something in the rules about "shims of wood, paper, etc. similar to those used by original arsenals to achieve bedding" etc. etc. Either it was changed sometime, or I got that from some other competitions rules.

Anyway, thanks for pointing it out!

Jonk, bringing back an old thread, but I finally figured out where I got the idea that shims are allowed. It's because they ARE for the FOREIGN military rifles under 6.3.6(8). Rule 6.3.4 is for U.S. as-issued rifles.

6.3.6 As-Issued Foreign Military Rifle
The rifl e must be a rifle that was issued by the Armed Forces of a country other
than the U. S. and be in as-issued condition. All as-issued foreign military rifl es
must be manually operated bolt-action or straight-pull rifl es. Semi-automatic
or fully automatic rifl es are not permitted.
(1) These fi rearms must be as issued by the foreign government, with a standard
stock and leather or web sling.
(2) Trigger pulls may not be less than 3.5 pounds.
(3) Rifl es must conform to the weight and dimension specifi cations of the
standard issue service rifl e. Weights may not be added to the rifl e.
(4) Only Government Issue parts or commercial parts of the exact same
weight and dimensions may be used.
(5) Sights must be of the same types that were on rifl es issued to regular
military personnel. Special purpose sights designed for sniping or target
practice are not permitted.
(6) Rifl es may be accurized only by the careful assembly of standard parts.
(7) Rebarreling with a barrel of as-issued dimensions is permitted.
(8) Shims made of wood, fabric, paper, metal or other similar material, of
types that were originally installed by military arsenals in these rifl es and
that are placed between the stock and the action, barrel or trigger assembly
are permitted. No other modifi cations or alterations of the “as-issued”
rifl e such as the use of glass or epoxy bedding in any location are permitted.
The use of synthetic or laminated stocks is not permitted unless such
stocks are original Government Issue.
(9) All as-issued rifl es must be chambered for the cartridge for which they
were originally chambered.

This is from the current 12th edition rules on the CMP website.

[jonk]

Hmm... installed by arsenals is pretty nebulous. How do I know that chunk of sheet metal was put in by a Finn arsenal or the last guy who owned the rifle? For that matter, how would CMP know this? I guess that gives 'open license' to fiddle but it still, in my opinion anyhow, violates the spirit of the rule- unless of course there IS an as issued or as re-arsenaled shim.

[GrizzLeeBear]

I have seen several references to shims in descriptions of some original military rifles, mostly enfields and mausers. Usually under the barrel just behind the nose cap. Originally these rifles were designed with slight upward pressure from the stock at this location. Over the years some of the stocks warp a little, etc. When the rifle went back through an arsenal a small shim was placed in this location to regain the original bedding. Some sort of waxed paper or very thin cardboard (like a playing card) were common. This of course, varied from aresenal to arsenal and was only done on a certain percentage of rifles.
My guess is that since some original rifles had these shims, they had to put this allowance in the rules or else disqualify rifles that are actually "as-issued". This catagory, by nature, has to allow for a wide variety of rifles, and arsenal practices. Where the U.S. rifle catagories can be a lot more stringent.
I do agree with staying with the spirit of the "as-issue" rules, but I think the sights on most of these rifles present more challenge to shooters than anything else.

[bcp477]

As for shims for the action - I would recommend aluminum, myself. Easily obtained by cutting up a soda can. You can vary the thickness needed by simply using more than one layer. Also, do check into whether the recoil shoulder on the receiver (bottom) sits tight against the stock crossbolt, when the action screws are tight. This is important - and there should be direct contact between the two. Very often with military Mausers, there isn't any contact in this critical location. If not, then all of the recoil forces are being transferred to the stock via the tang area (and ferrule in the stock). This will likely lead to a cracked stock, over time....as well as accuracy problems (shifting of the action, upon firing - leading to inaccuracy).

Usually, in my experience, military-stocked Mausers shoot best with a little upward pressure from the stock at about the mid point of the barrel. So, you can add some sort of shim (business card stock works very well) to ensure this - and add layers as needed to fine tune the effect. The shim should be wide enough to cradle the barrel - that is, the shim should be in the form of a "U" shape in the barrel channel, when installed. This will help prevent any lateral shifting of the barrel. Make certain that the inside of the hand guard does NOT make contact with the barrel, except where unavoidable. Such contact will ALWAYS compromise accuracy, in my experience.

[Kuato]

I use a load of 4064 with a 185gr J-bullet that gives me 3 shot 1 ragged hole groups at 50yd out of my Yugo 24/47 Mauser in UNmodified trim. It does just a lil over MOA when I do my part out to 100 ( military sights). 2.75" @ 100, maybe with surplus fodder. Not with handloads...

That happens to be my hunting load too. It performed perfectly on a BIG hog this year. 1 shot. the pig ran about 10 yds & piled up. The bullet entered the last 3 ribs on the left side, quartering away, & was recovered under the hide just infront of the right shoulder. Internal damage was high & the recovered bullet, perfectly mushroomed, weighed in @ 116gr..

So besides the accuracy of the load & rifle combination, the performance is great too. The rifle seems to prefer this powder to any others I've tried. It takes a bit of tinkering to find the sweet spot for a given rifle & boolit.

[Larry Gibson]

Jonk

Let me ask if that was just one group or will that M48A group 2 sighters and say 20 shots for record in 2.75"?

My point is this; if that rifle shoots either one of those loads consitently into 2.75" shot after shhot then it is a good load and a good shooting rifle. If that rifle and you with those sights holds 2.75 or 3 MOA at 200 yards then have at it. However don't quit attempting to improve the load. Also look at where the majority of rounds are going. If 8 out of 10 are under 2 moa you are competative. Many a match has been won by a hard holder and a 2 moa rifle.

A heavier bullet or a Lovern style like 323470 or 323471 always shoot better in my 8mms than a nose rider. Although the latest GB bullet of 190 gr is a very good shooter but it's nose engraves on the rifling in my rifles.

Larry Gibson

[jonk]

Larry,

It's pretty much shot after shot, yes. I won't say there are zero fliers but I can attribute that to myself or to a bullet variation.

So far as heavier bullets go, I'd welcome to try some in the 200+ grain range but don't have a mold on hand right now other than the 235 grain Maximum mold or whatever it's called. The M48 in question was basically unissued and has a tight abrupt throat for a military Mauser and seating depth would be quite tremendous; already the bases of my 175 grain bullets are about flush with the bottom of the case neck.

now for guns with more worn or more generous throats, I agree, I've done quite well with the heavier bullet, and it is all I shoot in my Gew 88s.

I'll keep tinkering to be sure; but with Camp Perry over (I missed a bronze with the M48 by one shot, which I jerked the gun on) I'm kind of sick of it. Too many guns to shoot to shoot the same one week after week. :wink:

[Larry Gibson]

Jonk

missed by one point....that's still some very good shooting, congradulations. I know what you mean by too many guns in competition. Back when I shot HP my scores went down when I started switching between and M1A, AR and bolt gun for various matches. I finally just stck with one and the scores went back up.

That is a really tight throat/leade on your M48A. My M98s, including 2 M48s, all allow the 323471 to be seated out with the top of the GC at the base of the case neck. 323470s are a perfect fit. Doesn't sound like the 175 bullet is doing too badly in your M48A. What load did you use at Perry?

Larry Gibson

[jonk]

I went with 17 gr of surplus SR4759. After several tests at 200 yards it just did the best of the 5 powders I tried which surprised me. Again, bang bang pop.

Most of the shots were in the 8 and 9 ring about 2" to the left of the bull. Damn non-adjustable sights! There was a light crosswind that was just enough, apparently. They were clustered between the 7 and 10 o clock positions.

[Bob S]

Jon:

You can adjust those sights for windage. This one can be used with one hand so you don't have to get out of the sling or break position:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Mauser%20sight%20adjustment/M_Adjuster_Yugo.jpg

This is an SKS adjuster. Takes a bit more finess that the original Yugo one, but can still be used with one hand with practice:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Mauser%20sight%20adjustment/SKS_on_Yugo.jpg

This is the ultimate in improvisation and "cheap", but requires two hands:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Mauser%20sight%20adjustment/Homemade_on_Yugo.jpg

None of these are as convenient as twiddling a knob on an M1, but you have ample time with sighters to get centered up.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Bob, I love the little C-clamp with the grooove cut in it! A brilliantly simple improvised tool. Gonna have to make me one of those. Would be useful on many guns and much more precise than a hammer and punch. Don't know how many time I've done the tap, not enough, tap, not enough, WHACK, too much, thing. LOL

[jonk]

Well I know they can be drifted, yes; but that would mean removal of the sight hood- again. A real PITA. And not something that is exacting that I can do when the wind picks up at a match. I have them centered for dead calm now and that's fine.

[Bob S]

Hi Jon,

That's the reason that I took those sight covers off and tossed them in a box someplace.

If you're shooting service ammunition, or equivalent, the wind will push the shooter around before it will push the bullet out of the ten ring of that big target at 200 yards, so once you get centered up, you're pretty much ready to rock 'n roll. If you're shooting cast bullet loads, you need to be pretty good at reading wind, like in smallbore, and taking favors. :veryconfu

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Bob S]

Grizzlee,

Yup, and you can actually calculate how much those gizmos will move your point of impact. It sure beats hitting them with a hammer and punch (pun intended), cursing, and then beating it back the other way some ....

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[jack19512]

Don't know how many time I've done the tap, not enough, tap, not enough, WHACK, too much, thing. LOL






Been there, done that a lot. :mrgreen:

[725]

That "C" clamp thing is brilliant. Got to love yankee ingenuity.

[C1PNR]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Mauser%20sight%20adjustment/M_Adjuster_Yugo.jpg

This is an SKS adjuster. Takes a bit more finess that the original Yugo one, but can still be used with one hand with practice:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Mauser%20sight%20adjustment/SKS_on_Yugo.jpg

Resp'y,
Bob S.
Bob, where would a guy be likely to find the Yugo tool, or even the SKS tool, for that matter?

It's unlikely I'll be adjusting sights at Camp Perry, but local matches certainly aren't out of the question.

[Bob S]

Bill,

The original Yugo adjuster I got from Numerich four or five years ago, maybe longer. I don't see them listed anymore. Midway has an SKS/AK adjuster that should work.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=368914

There's a guy named Stan Ward that makes adjusters, I think he makes 2 or three different sizes to fit the full spectrum of Mauserdom. The bases are of high quality machined steel, but he used 1/4-20 bolts that you require that you put a wrench on them, and I think 20 TPI is too coarse for this application. I replaced the bolt with a cap screw and glued the allen wrench into the head of the screw so it can be used with one hand. I tried multiple times to get him to make an adjuster for the US M1917, but he wasn't listening, I guess. :(

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Bob, just wanted to thank you for posting the pics of the sight pushers. I built one of the C-clamp pushers, basically exactly like the one in your third picture. Got the smallest C-clamp they had at Harbor Freight. About 20 minutes with a couple files and it was done!
Went out this weekend with the Yugo 24/47. Fired 10 rounds at 100 yds on the SR-1 target. 1st 2 were next to each other at 3 o'clock on the 10 ring. Put on the pusher and gave it about 1/4 - 1/3 of a turn. The next 8 shots were 5 - 10's and 3 - X's with the group being nicely centered. That kind of fine adjustment with a hammer and punch would have been frustrating to say the least. What a great tool for an investment of about 2 bucks!

BTW load was Lee C324-175-RN and 18 gr. of 2400.

[pbbutz]

Bob, just wanted to thank you for posting the pics of the sight pushers. I built one of the C-clamp pushers, basically exactly like the one in your third picture. Got the smallest C-clamp they had at Harbor Freight. About 20 minutes with a couple files and it was done!
Went out this weekend with the Yugo 24/47. Fired 10 rounds at 100 yds on the SR-1 target. 1st 2 were next to each other at 3 o'clock on the 10 ring. Put on the pusher and gave it about 1/4 - 1/3 of a turn. The next 8 shots were 5 - 10's and 3 - X's with the group being nicely centered. That kind of fine adjustment with a hammer and punch would have been frustrating to say the least. What a great tool for an investment of about 2 bucks!

BTW load was Lee C324-175-RN and 18 gr. of 2400.

Best idea I have seen in a while, thanks guys!

[Bob S]

Grizlee,

'Welcome!

I use the same load also. :-)

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[mike in co]

'

As for sorting cases by weight- I never saw the point of it. It seems much more logical to sort the cases by volume- i.e. filling with water and weighing that way- but that is not something I am going to undertake at this point. Unless someone would care to enlighten me as to why sorting by weight would matter?


maybe not with lite cast boolit loads, but the more you fill the case the more volume is a variable. weighing works because the brass must be somewhere. if you fire form or full lenght size the outsides are all uniform. the brass alloy is a uniform alloy. if the primer pockets are uniformed, the lengths trimmed, the primer inner hole deburred, then the same amount of brass will have the same internal volume......
i have done tests, it works . same lot of brass, same weight=same volume.

now mixed brass, no cleanup of the brass, and it all goes out the door.

mike in co