1874 Sharps 45-70 accuracy concerns

[shafer44]

Ok, so I am still learning about my Pedersoli 1874 Sharps 45-70. From help or suggestions on this site, I have added Creedmoor type tang sight, Hadley eye cup, started using the lollipop type front aperature, and have just started using a NOE RD type 460-350gr FN boolit (i got the 5 cavity and love it). Well, my shots at 50 yds are great, they tear the center out of the target. However, even using a Caldwell lead sled which is a pretty solid rest, at 100 yds, I am all over the place. I may get 2 or 3 shots within 2-3", but then the next is off to one side, down or whatever. I do not believe I am jerking the trigger, because when you have the DST, once you set the trigger, it is almost always a surprise when it goes off, which is what you want. I have not tried other powders, that is the one thing that I am wondering about. I started and have stayed with IMR 3031 since I had an 8lb can of it. As far as pressures, this is one of the best for low pressure. I do have a 1# can of AA 5744 and I have yet to try it. Can powder cause that much difference in accuracy? Using QuickLoad, and loading for 1430 fps, the imr 3031 is about 10000 psi and AA5744 is about 11000, which is fine and IMR 3031 is 38 gr. compared to 25gr AA5744. Can anyone else comment on their use of these two powders and their conclusion as to whether accuracy is better for one or the other of these powders? Thanks.

[NSB]

I had a couple of Pedersoli Sharps 45-70, and they were both very accurate....with some bullets and powders. I never, repeat NEVER, got very good accuracy with any bullet lighter than 400grains and I never got very good results with 3031 powder. Yes, I know that 3031 is supposed to be a great powder for this cartridge but it wasn't even close to the best for me. You will need to slug your barrel to see what the true diameter is and use a bullet of proper diameter. I'd suggest trying some 5744, and some 2400 in place of the 3031. My Pedersoli's would shoot right around 1moa with the right bullet and powder, and miss the backstop with the wrong bullet and powder. Quit using the lead sled and use soft bags under the gun and don't put any, I mean any pressure downward on the gun with your face when you're shooting it. Pedersoli's will shoot very, very well. Don't give up on it. FWIW, I have the remains of a box of Meister Bullet Co. Slug Your Barrel Kit you are welcome to if you pay the postage to get it shipped to you. It came with enough slugs in it to do five guns and I've used three guns worth of slugs out of it to slug my barrels. You can use it to find out what your barrel actually is. Everything including the instructions are in the box. Good luck.

[Don McDowell]

Those 350 gr bullets are to short to work very well in that 18 twist barrel. Go up to a 480 gr or heavier, ditch that lead sled, and you're accuracy will likely improve.
5744 is the second best powder to use in the 45-70,the first place powder goes to 2f black.

[country gent]

I agree with Don's post above. The lighter bullets are short for the 1-18 twist and throat in the rifles barrel. If a lighter bullet is desired a hollow Based bullet with a thicker skirt would be longer for weight and might work better. 450-550grn bullets shine in my pedersoli. The 535 Lyman postel shoots very well for me in mine. A friend used the 480 grn lyman in his pedersoli with very good results out to 500 yds also. Don't overlook the lyman 510 grn round nosed govt ( 4571215) either. The lyman or that style from other makers. A lot of competitors have a short range load for out to 200yds and a long range load for farther to save on recoil. Sometimes loading the lighter bullets to a lower velocity helps with the accuracy also. I have loaded very little smokeless powder in 45-70 but have used Black powder mostly. You might give a case full of 1 1/2F or 2F a try around 62-64 grns to start out.

[shafer44]

the comments are good, so far. First, I have slugged my barrel, it is .4583 and I am shooting .459 boolits until I get my .460 sizing die, my cast boolits come out .4613, but i haven't tried the pan lube route yet. I am going to load some 5744 at about 25gr. for the 355gr boolits that i have cast and sized. I also have some 405gr that I may load up also. I don't think the lead sled is any of my problem, personally. I shoot sub MOA groups with my 7mm mag, 300 win mag and AR's from this same rest. I really have a problem with the aperature type sights, as I am spoiled by my 4.5-14 x 50mm Leupold scopes on the other rifles. The size of the black circle on the targets also make a huge difference in whether or not the hold is right on the target at 100yds. I need to get some more targets with 8-9" or so black centers which help a whole lot. I am hoping to see a good improvement with the 5744...I will just have to wait and see. Oh, and when I shoot, I am holding the foregrip on the underside just to stabilize the rifle and my face is not really touching anything, just looking thru the eyepiece. I may try just the regular sandbag rests next time along with my past recoil shield if I shoot the heavy boolits.

[shafer44]

for the last country gent post, I wish I did have some BP, I would give it a go. The closest place to get BP around my part of West Texas is 100 miles away, you have to call the day before you go so they can go get it out of their bunker the next morning and you have to pick it up that day. On top of driving 200 miles round trip, you have to buy at least 10 lbs of BP and even when buying 10 assorted lbs of which ever granular you want, it is still $23 per lb. I don't know what you guys have to pay, but I hope it is better than $23/lb!!

[country gent]

On 2 piece stocks down pressure really tends to affect barrel harmonics a lot. Inconsistent pressure can cause real variances on some rifles. I shoot mostly from a set of sticks Actual position and tall sticks when practicing bench sticks when testing from the benches. I have tested and have a mark on the barrel where the dead spot is

[country gent]

I order from Buffalo Arms once a year and go thru roughly 25 lbs a year or a little more. A few friends can get together and order a 25 lb case and split the hazmat and shipping up with the order. You can order smaller amounts but hazmat is a set fee whether 2 lbs or 50 lbs is ordered. I think the last Olde Ensforde I ordered ended up around 18.00 a lb for the 25lb case. Check Powder valley, track of the wolf, Buffalo arms and some others for powder purchases. Bafflo arms will allow up to 50 lbs and can be split between manufacturer ( Swiss, Olde ensforde, goex) and granulations of same. For 45-70 1 1/2F and 2F from olde ensford and Swiss to start then maybe some 1F on the next order. Dropping these charges of 62-65 grns or slightly more into each case really drains a powder can quick.

[Don McDowell]

If you're having trouble making out the bullseye on the target put a larger aperture in the front sight.
For Blackpowder you can order from Powder Inc. Graf's and Buffalo Arms.

[shafer44]

Don, I have the largest "lollipop" aperature installed. It has done a lot better since i did that over the smaller one I started with. The bullseye targets I have only have a 6" black and at 100 yds, it is kind of small. I did better with the targets I ran out of that I just had a ring of white around it. I will have to check powder, inc and graf's and buffalo.

[shafer44]

Ok, just checked powder prices and Powder, inc. is about the same for 10 lbs.....EXCEPT, I don't have to do the 200 mile round trip, which is probably 5 hrs of my time and $25 for gas. It would take me a while to shoot up 10lbs of powder though.

[Don McDowell]

It don't take long to go thru 10 lbs of powder. 45-70 gobbles up a can every 100 rounds.
I can't hardly even drive to town and back for the hazmat fee, and even if I did go to town, I don't think there's any bp available around here for 250-300 miles.

[shafer44]

well, now I feel really dumb!! I went in my gun room and started preparing some cases, got them to the point that it was add powder, bullet and seat and crimp. I was doing the neck sizing by backing off my FL sizing die. I took a couple and checked whether the bell was enough to start the bullets..I always do this before running thru a bunch. I noticed that the bullets would go all the way in to the crimp groove. That baffled me, so I resized and tried again, same thing. Then I got my micrometer out and the bullets I had sized were .452........sized some 45 acp loads and FORGOT to change the die back to the .459. That could have been my main problem after all this!!! .452 bullets in a .4583 barrel. Man, I have got to get my second lubricator set up!! Well, now I go back out tomorrow and try again with the loads I tried today with the wrong bullet size. If I still have the problem, THEN, I will change powder. I feel like i truly fit the old saying....the hurrieder I go, the behinder, I get!!

[Don McDowell]

Better get yourself a can of pure gum spirits of turpentine and some 2 1/2 in round flannel patches and do some serious lead mining before the next outing.

[M.A.D]

I wish i could get powder for $25 lb...... I have a 4 hour round trip to grab 10 lb and it costs me $50 a lb.... Welcome to Australia...

[shafer44]

Ok, now another question. Some of the boolits are heavy and long, like the 450, 480, 500gr, etc. I was loading a 450gr FN and it called for COL of 2.850". Well, if I seat the boolit to that depth, my block will not close unless I push the bullet on into the lands. Is this ok to do that? When I do that, the shell will not come out with the extractor, or I do not want to do it hard enough that I might break the extractor, so I pushed the shell out with a cleaning rod. I guess after I shoot, then the case will come out normally. Is this really what i want to do length wise?

[Chill Wills]

You can forget what the OAL states when loading for a singleshot and adjust the length of load for your rifle. Your cartridges do not have to feed through any kind of repeater.

[shafer44]

I know that, but is it correct for the boolit to have to be pushed into the lands in order for the block to close? That was my question.

[country gent]

I like for bullets to be just on the rifling enough to allow easy loading. There isn't a lot of camming to the single shots and your thumb gets tried and sore quick when forcing them in. There are cam tools available for helping load the various single shots. The other is if a cease fire is called unloading can be a real mess and or pain. Look at your loaded ammo ( chambered round) and see where the bullet is hitting in the rifling. Bright spots rub marks on bullet nose. Adjust from there

[Chill Wills]

I know that, but is it correct for the boolit to have to be pushed into the lands in order for the block to close? That was my question.

No reason to get testy. We are all friends here and like to learn new stuff. I understand your question and I answered it as best I could in few words.

Here it is again. The operative part in blue.

You can forget what the OAL states when loading for a singleshot and adjust the length of load for your rifle. Your cartridges do not have to feed through any kind of repeater.

In other words, you should not have to jam it in. Seat deeper.

[shafer44]

sorry, was not trying to be an A*hole about it, i just did not understand that you meant seat the bullet deeper. I have not had a working single shot, but have loaded many bolt action rifle loads. For accuracy in those it is size a case, insert a bullet, close the bolt and then back up or seat deeper by 3-5 thousandths, just off the lands. Somewhere here I read some post that said to seat the bullets in the lands with cast boolits, but I had not loaded any long boolits yet. I loaded some and when I seated the boolits per the recommended COL, it was in the lands and I had to push the case in with my thumb to get the falling block to close. Hopefully, what i did is correct, I backed off the seating depth until I could load the shell normally without having to push it in with my thumb. For my rifle, Lyman cast bullet book said 2.85" COL, but I had to shorten that to 2.70" to have an easy loading shell. It is still very close to the lands, as I seated by a few thousandths each time, trial an error until I got to where it fit easily. Thanks for the suggestion and sorry if I seemed testy.

[Chill Wills]

No blood, no foul. :-P We are good.
It sounds like you have the idea. You can custom fit the ammo to your rifle chamber when loading for singleshots. And, you are now doing that.

Smokeless or BP, both are fun. Due give the BP a chance soon as it will be a pleasant surprise. Those that have also know that cleaning is a snap.

[shafer44]

this forum is so informative that it hurts.....hurts my pocket book!! I have bought the Pedersoli 1874 Sharps 45-70, dies, 3 molds, creedmoor soule type sight, spirit front sight, new powders, dug out my old Remington RB's (43 egyptian x 2 and 7x57 Spanish mauser #5 1897) and am having to replace extractor in one of them. Bought lead to mix with my linotype...man, the list goes on. Now, I may have to get some BP. It has been so long since I bought any, I saw someone telling me to try 1-1/2F or 2F. When I shot BP last, I don't think there was any half numbers. I think I still have a can of 3F that i have not opened, but I guess that is not for cartridge BP?? Anyway, I guess it back out to the range tomorrow and try the new heavier boolits with AA5744 loaded in them to see if they group better.

[Chill Wills]

You can use the 3f. Some really great (accurate) loads have been made from 3f.
Since you have it, give it a try. It won't be bad. by the time you find the best load that lb will be gone anyway, so have fun with it, and get some more 2f or 1.5f. It won't matter which. Play with it.
The Swiss and Olde Eynsford(GOEX) may or may not show better accuracy than what you have now.

[shafer44]

ok, mine is Goex 3F

[shafer44]

I have a friend that has 2F in Goex, would it be better for me to trade him the 3F for his 2F? He told me he would trade a while back.

[shafer44]

ok, am I the only pansy or does anyone use a recoil pad slip on or whatever on the Sharps 45-70?

[Don McDowell]

I use a slip on pad when shooting from prone, but when shooting sitting or offhand I don't.

[NSB]

Unless you're really pushing those loads, you won't need a pad sitting or standing. It's a pretty heavy gun and it soaks up a lot of recoil. I don't use a pad at all, but I keep them at around 1400-1550fps. I guess I'm a pansy that way :p

[charlie b]

Sorry, but, I use a PAST shoulder pad for almost everything I shoot. Even if I don't 'need' it I like having it on. I can fire a LOT more shots during a session without any ill effects.

I started with it due to heavy bullet loads and also found that it had another benefit. Hunting load development was during summer. Light shirts. Hunting was cold weather, heavy coats. Using the pad during summer meant I had the same pull length as when hunting.

Now it is just habit to put it on when I go to the range. I am usually wearing it when I shoot my rimfires.

[EDG]

Lose the 3031.

Try the 5744. If you can possibly find SR4759 try some of that. It was never very popular and was discontinued about 3 years ago. Since you have a fairly strong rifle when loading SR4759 start with about 23 grains and a 500+grain bullet. Shoot groups and look in the bore for unburned grains of powder. SR4759 will leave huge grains of unburned powder that seem to cause fliers. When you increase the powder charge to the sweet spot the unburned grains will disappear. That will be somewhere between 25 to 26 grains. You should get excellent groups in your Pedersoli. My best groups came from a Steve Brooks mold that gives a 512 grain bullet at about .460. I shoot them lubed but unsized. Velocity should be about 1100 to 1300fps.

I expand the cases to the same diameter as the bullets. The only grip I get on the bullet is from the spring back of the case when the expander is removed.
I seat the bullet about .050 shallow so that it hits the rifling. It only requires light thumb pressure to force the case forward enough to close the breech block. I get excellent accuracy.

I cannot use the Pedersoli front inserts because the aperture rings are too thin for me to easily see. The wide Lyman lollipop inserts with a 8" black bull works well at 100 yards.
I get a football shaped picture due to astigmatism with the smaller rear apertures so I use the larger openings and still get very good results.

[shafer44]

Thanks, i will see if someone local has some 4759. Yeah, I switched to the Pedersoli lollipop, largest one i had and that helps immensely. I found some of my old bulleyse 50 yd targets and they have an 8" black center, which is just right for the lollipop aperature. I think part of my problem is fouling. I am using carnuaba red and i really have a dirty barrel when I get home. I am going to go to the xlox 2500+ and see if that helps. I think I am shooting too low a pressure for the red to do its job. I only shoot about 1400 fps or less and the pressure is usually less than 12000. I just hate the alox/beeswax because it is so sticky and messy. I am trying to find a lube that stays in the grooves and not all over everything else. I know a lot of this is me and not the gun. I can shoot at 50 yds and make one big hole. Of course, as long as I am on excuses, here in West Texas, the wind is always blowing 10-20 mph every day.

[EDG]

I use the Alox/beeswax stuff because I have never had leading at the low velocities with it and it is an excellent rust preventative. Yes it is kind of messy but I use the Berry's 415 Special plastic flip top 50 round box. This box is a good fit for even the long Postell and Creedmoor bullets loaded in the 45-70. This box keeps the loaded rounds clean and separated so the sticky stuff stays where it belongs.
I am originally from Palo Pinto county which has some of the wind though not like further west or in the Panhandle.
One day I noticed that I was getting fliers about 1" to the left. The corresponding wind that day was walking speed - about 4 mph. I did not think that little wind would affect my groups much but I tried shooting when the wind was calm and then when it was steady. When the 4 mph wind was moving my shots veered to the left 1". I later checked the Hornady ballistic charts for data on the 500 grn RN bullets. The bullets I was using were very similar in shape to the Hornady Jacketed bullets. The Hornady ballistic charts agreed very close to 1" wind drift at 100. I am just relating that because a 10 to 20 mph breeze will move even 500 grain bullet more than I ever thought they would.
If you think fouling is a problem you might consider starting with a perfectly clean bore and wipe it with an almost non existent film of Lee Liquid alox. This would only be 2 or 3 or 4 drops on the center of a cleaning patch. This can help prevent lead fouling from the dry bore of the first shot. With 5744 you will get a lot of unburned grains left in the bore. Longer barrels and higher pressures help eliminate some of the unburned grains. You can boost the load to the top of the data recommendations and the unburned grains will be reduced. However with my loads there was always some unburned grains. You might try wiping the bore between shots to see if that improves groups.
I got better groups with SR4759 especially when the unburned grains were eliminated.


Thanks, i will see if someone local has some 4759. Yeah, I switched to the Pedersoli lollipop, largest one i had and that helps immensely. I found some of my old bulleyse 50 yd targets and they have an 8" black center, which is just right for the lollipop aperature. I think part of my problem is fouling. I am using carnuaba red and i really have a dirty barrel when I get home. I am going to go to the xlox 2500+ and see if that helps. I think I am shooting too low a pressure for the red to do its job. I only shoot about 1400 fps or less and the pressure is usually less than 12000. I just hate the alox/beeswax because it is so sticky and messy. I am trying to find a lube that stays in the grooves and not all over everything else. I know a lot of this is me and not the gun. I can shoot at 50 yds and make one big hole. Of course, as long as I am on excuses, here in West Texas, the wind is always blowing 10-20 mph every day.

[shafer44]

we hunted in Palo Pinto county for 15yrs, we had a lease about 3 miles from Possom Kingdom lake. I read somewhere that you could take a piece of chore girl, chore boy or the copper pan cleaner stuff and basically scrub the barrel to remove lead. Is this so, I assume that since it is copper, it would not hurt the barrel?? also, i do not have the liquid alox, but would running a patch thru with bore butter like I use on my muzzleloader do the same type thing? It just seems like I get good groups for 5-8 shots and then it goes to heck, just not consistent after that.

[shafer44]

Ok, a little update on my accuracy issues. I cast some more boolits and this time, I did not size them, they drop out of my mold at .4608 and my barrel slugs .4585. I hand lubed them and went out to shoot. I shot the first shot and it was in the center of my 8" black. The next 5 shots were grouped a little higher, but was a very good for me 2" group....this was at 100yds. I ran a patch every other shot. As I continued shooting and running patches, I noticed some slivers of lead coming out with the patch. Now, I am confused, because I am large enough over groove diameter, I lubed them pretty good, and I am only shooting 1400 fps. The boolits hardness is about 12 bhn. Could the boolits be too soft and I need to get more towards the lyman #2 alloy?

[EDG]

It sounds like you are doing well except for the lead slivers. I have had good results with clip on wheel weights which is about 12 bhn. I have also used 20 parts lead to 1 part tin for about 10 bhn and got good results with that too. If you review other shooters alloys I think you will find that 20 to 1 is the most common alloy. But people also use 16 to 1 or clip on wheel weights to control nose slump. Other shooters use 40 to 1 , 30 to 1 and 25 to 1 which are softer than your alloy so I don't think your alloy is too soft. Maybe one of the other shooters will comment.

My mold casts between .460 and .462 depending on temp and alloy. I shoot the .462 bullets as cast. They are lubed by hand. The .460 bullets are lubed in a .460 die that does not reduce the diameter. When you use a soft oversize bullet it will seal the bore and not have much of a tendency to gas cut or lead.
I think the Alox is probably superior to bore butter but I am not a muzzle loader guy so your judgment is probably better than mine.

I would guess that your bore might have a little leading left in it or your lube is too hard. Some of the synthetic cleaning patches are pretty coarse, tough material and are pretty good for dragging out leading. It might take wiping the bore with a solvent and letting it sit to loosen the lead before a patch can drag it out. I remove lead that way. When the bore is dry any lead shows up as an area with a different reflectivity.

My last hunting place in north Texas was at Caddo in Stephens County a few miles south and west of Possum Kingdom.


Ok, a little update on my accuracy issues. I cast some more boolits and this time, I did not size them, they drop out of my mold at .4608 and my barrel slugs .4585. I hand lubed them and went out to shoot. I shot the first shot and it was in the center of my 8" black. The next 5 shots were grouped a little higher, but was a very good for me 2" group....this was at 100yds. I ran a patch every other shot. As I continued shooting and running patches, I noticed some slivers of lead coming out with the patch. Now, I am confused, because I am large enough over groove diameter, I lubed them pretty good, and I am only shooting 1400 fps. The boolits hardness is about 12 bhn. Could the boolits be too soft and I need to get more towards the lyman #2 alloy?

[country gent]

I use a limb saver slip on pad a lot of the time when testing as being numb I don't know when Ive had "to much fun" always. Clean the bore good to start with and monitor it as you shoot it. If you feel "dry or crusty" patches then you may need a better lube. with the 500 grn - 550 grn bullets I'm only in the 1200 fps range with my loads. But I have yet to have a well hit ram stay standing on me. Another quick question is what are you running for wads between bullets and powder? This can make a difference in loasds performance and leading also.

[shafer44]

i am shooting smokeless with nothing between the powder and boolit

[Boz330]

I get a little lead every time I shoot but not enough to be a problem. I tried straight WW lead and it leaded so bad that within 10 shots I couldn't keep them on paper. 20-1 has always worked good for me in my Pedersoli with BP. Never tried smokeless.

Bob

[shafer44]

well, lead cleaned out, powder change again, boolit change and finally......less than 2" at 100yds!!! I know, not that good, but for me it is when I started with a shotgun pattern. Today with NOE 460-350gr FN....PC'd, 14gr unique I shot a 1.57" group. Amazing that the PC'd bullets shoot so well and they do not lead the barrel. I had to seat them deeper though, they will not chamber the same as normal lubed bullets, the amount on the nose is enough to make me have to seat them deeper by 5 or 6 thousandths.
198080

[EDG]

You are well on your way to accurate ammo. That load should be a blast to shoot since you get about 500 loads per pound. The recoil about like shooting a .410 shotgun.
Pay attention to the wind and your groups will shrink because those bullets drift like a nerf ball.


well, lead cleaned out, powder change again, boolit change and finally......less than 2" at 100yds!!! I know, not that good, but for me it is when I started with a shotgun pattern. Today with NOE 460-350gr FN....PC'd, 14gr unique I shot a 1.57" group. Amazing that the PC'd bullets shoot so well and they do not lead the barrel. I had to seat them deeper though, they will not chamber the same as normal lubed bullets, the amount on the nose is enough to make me have to seat them deeper by 5 or 6 thousandths.
198080

[shafer44]

Yeah, yesterday was weird wind wise, as it was blowing straight towards me, maybe a little right to left, which makes sense as to where the boolits hit. I am still learning with the vernier sight. I started out with the first shot before this 5 shot group on another target going right in the center, then a little low and right, another low and right, so I decided to adjust my windage. I did not have my reading glasses with me and I turned the wheel the wrong way. Of course i hit more right, so I move it more , I shot probably 10 shots and then went to the truck for glasses. Well, I saw that I went the wrong way and then moved it back the other way. I don't know now if i moved it a little too far or if it was the wind. Oh, well, that is my best group with the Sharps, so next time I will maybe move it up an inch or 2. Thanks.

[shafer44]

Man, the more I shoot my Pedersoli Sharps, the more I like it. I am honed in now! I have started shooting a 457132 lyman, which casts 520gr with my alloy. I cast, powder coat and then size and lube with .459 sizing die and LSStuff 2500+, kind of overkill to keep from leading my barrel, but it works! Today, I finally hit the dinger at 500m after changing my loads last night to a little hotter load. I was shooting about 1175 fps and bumped it up to 1250 fps with 32.5gr of IMR 3031. That gun likes that load and the postell bullet!! When I got the first hit on the 500m dinger, I hit 4 more in a row before missing and ended up with 8 hits out of 11 shots. I feel like accuracy is no longer a problem for this rifle......only the ME part keeps it from hitting.

[OlDeuce]

Man, the more I shoot my Pedersoli Sharps, the more I like it. I am honed in now! I have started shooting a 457132 lyman, which casts 520gr with my alloy. I cast, powder coat and then size and lube with .459 sizing die and LSStuff 2500+, kind of overkill to keep from leading my barrel, but it works! Today, I finally hit the dinger at 500m after changing my loads last night to a little hotter load. I was shooting about 1175 fps and bumped it up to 1250 fps with 32.5gr of IMR 3031. That gun likes that load and the postell bullet!! When I got the first hit on the 500m dinger, I hit 4 more in a row before missing and ended up with 8 hits out of 11 shots. I feel like accuracy is no longer a problem for this rifle......only the ME part keeps it from hitting.

Your 32.5gr of IMR3031 using a 500gr cast RN is was recommended for me to use in my 34" Shiloh Sharps ! in 1992 and have never changed that Load!! Over
800yds on a Buffalo Gong a the Quigle Shoot !!! Ol Deuce