Thinking about getting a gunsmithing degree/certificate/???

[zymguy]

Any gunsmiths out there want to dissuade me? Seems to me I know more people who need a good gunsmith than I do who will recommend one. Obviously there are fiscal considerations but for the sake of argument lets assume i could afford the schooling.
Is it laughable to think I could one day live in rural MN and make a modest living doing gunsmithing work?
All comments welcome , this is a feasibility study.

[JBinMN]

I live in the land of sky blue waters myself & this is a really good idea.
:)

I am getting older & limited on physical activity. I am interested to see what folks here have to say also.

Plus, we are far enough apart there won't be that much competition. Although I have enjoyed your part of the state when I get the chance.

;)
LOL
:)

[zymguy]

classmates ! I'm wondering how far in advance you have to enroll to Pine??

[GhostHawk]

Problem as I see it is insurance cost and liability issues.

You work on a gun, it leaves your shop. You do not know what happens to that gun, or what they put in it. But if it blows up your a business, so you are first on the list to get sued.

So bear that in mind, talk to other gunsmiths, how do they do it?

Don't get me wrong, I wish you the best of luck.

World needs more guys like you.

[JBinMN]

classmates ! I'm wondering how far in advance you have to enroll to Pine??

Apparently there is some reading to do to find out....
;)

http://www.pine.edu/programs/gunsmithing/gunsmithing-and-firearms-technology/

[zymguy]

Problem as I see it is insurance cost and liability issues.

You work on a gun, it leaves your shop. You do not know what happens to that gun, or what they put in it. But if it blows up your a business, so you are first on the list to get sued.

So bear that in mind, talk to other gunsmiths, how do they do it?

Don't get me wrong, I wish you the best of luck.

World needs more guys like you.

I hear you loud and clear. I'm in the beer business now so I understand how those can be very real overhead costs, insurance and the like.

[zymguy]

Ive been through that, were you able to find a timeline? If they're only graduating ten a year they must be turning many away.

[zymguy]

I'm also worried about what the political climate 20 yrs down the road, but I suppose every industry has that concern.

[DougGuy]

The tooling is mucho expensive, in addition to the education you will need a small but fairly well fitted out machine shop. Lathe, mill, and not just any lathe or mill, they must be precision tools. Also I might add that the necessary tooling associated with a lathe and a mill is likely to cost more than the machines themselves when it's all said and done. TiG welder, oxy-acetylene torches, and the myriad micrometers, pin gages, reamers, and a lot of very specialized tooling for doing revolver work and building 1911s.

It comes down to if you are really smart and good with your tools, your skills and workmanship will sell itself if enough people see it, regardless of your location.

[JBinMN]

Ive been through that, were you able to find a timeline? If they're only graduating ten a year they must be turning many away.

I just used this link & filled it out & they are supposed to send out something.
:)
https://pinetech.custhelp.com/ci/documents/detail/2/Requestinfo

G'Luck!
:)

[zymguy]

I filled one out over a week ago, nothing yet. Its right after graduation, school staff was probably busy, ill bet it comes soon now

[JBinMN]

I filled one out over a week ago, nothing yet. Its right after graduation, school staff was probably busy, ill bet it comes soon now

Just got an email from them.
--------------
Dear J. B.

Thank you for your interest in Pine Technical & Community College. PTCC has so much to offer, and we're excited you are thinking about applying and enrolling at PTCC.

You can download your Gunsmithing and Firearms Technology program guide here.
We'll be in touch soon to answer any specific questions you may have. In the meantime, the Pine Technical & Community College website is a great resource for future students. Please check out www.pine.edu and take a look around at the programs and services available to you.

You can apply online at: www.pine.edu/apply. There is no application fee.
Are you transferring from a different college? See our transfer page.
To learn more about financial aid, please see: www.pine.edu/financial-aid/
For more information regarding Student Services, including counseling, disability services and veterans services, please see: www.pine.edu/student-services/
If you would like to attend a Discover Pine information and tour, or would like to schedule an individual college visit, see: www.pine.edu/visit/
At PTCC, we believe students come first; therefore, we feel it is important you have your questions addressed. We are ready and available to help you! We'll be in touch soon, but please feel free to reply to this email if you have any immediate questions.

Best wishes,

PTCC Admissions Team

Jen Rancour
Recruitment and Admissions Specialist
jen.rancour@pine.edu
320.629.5189

Max Anderson
Recruitment and Admissions Specialist
max.anderson@pine.edu
320.629.4521
--------------------
Try again?
;)

[zymguy]

Just got an email from them.
--------------
Dear J. B.

Thank you for your interest in Pine Technical & Community College. PTCC has so much to offer, and we're excited you are thinking about applying and enrolling at PTCC.

You can download your Gunsmithing and Firearms Technology program guide here.
We'll be in touch soon to answer any specific questions you may have. In the meantime, the Pine Technical & Community College website is a great resource for future students. Please check out www.pine.edu and take a look around at the programs and services available to you.

You can apply online at: www.pine.edu/apply. There is no application fee.
Are you transferring from a different college? See our transfer page.
To learn more about financial aid, please see: www.pine.edu/financial-aid/
For more information regarding Student Services, including counseling, disability services and veterans services, please see: www.pine.edu/student-services/
If you would like to attend a Discover Pine information and tour, or would like to schedule an individual college visit, see: www.pine.edu/visit/
At PTCC, we believe students come first; therefore, we feel it is important you have your questions addressed. We are ready and available to help you! We'll be in touch soon, but please feel free to reply to this email if you have any immediate questions.

Best wishes,

PTCC Admissions Team

Jen Rancour
Recruitment and Admissions Specialist
jen.rancour@pine.edu
320.629.5189

Max Anderson
Recruitment and Admissions Specialist
max.anderson@pine.edu
320.629.4521
--------------------
Try again?
;)

ya i think those are automated. Need the envlope stuffer to catch up with the stack on their desk =)

[M-Tecs]

A buddy went through there program about 5 years ago. He was impressed.

[lefty o]

i know a few guys who have done the pine city gunsmith course, they seem to produce capable gunsmiths.

[David2011]

I took some community college courses in gunsmithing and later became the instructor. It was far more limited than the PTCC Curriculum. We just taught basic lathe and milling machine operation, blasting, polishing and hot bluing with the goal of making a quality sporting rifle based on a Mauser 98 action. These were continuing education courses not intended to turn out working gunsmiths, nowhere nearly as comprehensive as PTCC. That looks like an excellent curriculum.

[zymguy]

I just used this link & filled it out & they are supposed to send out something.
:)
https://pinetech.custhelp.com/ci/documents/detail/2/Requestinfo

G'Luck!
:)

I still havent gotten anything, have you?

[JBinMN]

I still havent gotten anything, have you?

Yes, I got another email asking me to come visit the campus.
:)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It would be a good idea to hunt for old threads with gunsmithing in the title, to see more of what people say about the practicalities of gunsmithing for a living. If you walk in a street, you see the ice-cream parlour in that street, and at the worst his ice-cream is no worse than walking a few hundred yards for someone else's. Decisions about gunsmithing work are usually taken days ahead and at home.

A lot of gunsmithing is simple enough for any amateur with the tools - but people expect it done for less than will pay for the tools, and preferably today. Much of this is overwork-and-nothing seasonal. Other forms of gunsmithing could turn you into a prosperous, contented specialist in work unavailable elsewhere - and yet if you became that good tomorrow, it would still take years to build up the reputation that would bring in enough of it.

I've seen it called the best job in the world, and for some I believe it. But don't confuse it with being a superior and better equipped version of the amateur, like me, you have been hitherto. It is doing it for people that causes most of the problems.

[JBinMN]

It would just be a side thing for me anyway. I am semi retired from Construction work & have some med issues to deal with. I do not expect to live for more than 5 years more, if that...
I was just looking at something to do to maybe make some extra $$ & likely something I would enjoy puttering around with. I have no intention to make it a career or anything more than having a sort of hobby. Looking at the time the institution wants someone to invest & the credits needed, I would either have to have them apply(credit) some of my real life experience of having a const. business for 30+ years, plus my other prior education from years ago /military service/etc. , or I wouldn't even take the time to visit the campus. I have no need for the entrance level required courses they apparently require at this time of my life.

It was just something I was interested in.
:)

[John Taylor]

When someone ask me about becoming a gunsmith the first thought is " don't quit your day job". While I have been able to keep the bills paid I'm not getting rich and I don't have much overhead. A lot of the tooling I had before I went into gunsmithing full time. Probably have $15,000 tied up in chamber reamers but that was spread out over 20 years. Schooling will teach you the basics but getting experience takes time. I was sort of lucky, having a background of mechanic welder and machinist before I had to make a living as a gunsmith.

[EDG]

I know a guy six years younger than me. By the time he was about to finish high school I had been working as a machinist almost 6 years.
I had messed with my own guns a lot and he was interested in being a gunsmith. I told him he would never be happy with the money that a gunsmith makes. If he got a college degree in something that paid well he could afford to shoot instead of working on other's guns. He worked one summer with me in a shop and then worked as a lab technician. He even built storm drains on a new interstate highway one summer in Texas. He got an accounting degree and became a CPA. He is now probably a millionaire.

[Handloader109]

If it were me, I'd go a bit different direction. There are a lot of folks wanting cerakoting done on their guns. You do need GOOD sprayer, compressor and an oven, and a bunch of not cheap coatings. past that it's time and experience. And appears to be decent money in it.

[zymguy]

I'm a brewer in a location most only vacation or retire to. I'm hoping i can gunsmith in the winter months (bout 7 of them around here) and brew in the summer. Ive got a fair bit of education but have always chosen to live where i want to over making allotof money. At 35 the typical 2.5 kids and a white picket fence has proven NOT a priority. I dont expect to get wealthy , I hope to take on new challenges and meet a new network of people. Brew part time Smith part time and marry a VERY wealthy girl and i should be able to retire about noon the day before i die =)

[zymguy]

When someone ask me about becoming a gunsmith the first thought is " don't quit your day job". While I have been able to keep the bills paid I'm not getting rich and I don't have much overhead. A lot of the tooling I had before I went into gunsmithing full time. Probably have $15,000 tied up in chamber reamers but that was spread out over 20 years. Schooling will teach you the basics but getting experience takes time. I was sort of lucky, having a background of mechanic welder and machinist before I had to make a living as a gunsmith.

What do you fing to be the limmiting factor for profit ? Lack of work? Lack of time? Too much tax/utilitys/insurance/etc. ?

[zymguy]

If it were me, I'd go a bit different direction. There are a lot of folks wanting cerakoting done on their guns. You do need GOOD sprayer, compressor and an oven, and a bunch of not cheap coatings. past that it's time and experience. And appears to be decent money in it.

thats an interesting idea, but i fear just doing coatings would quickly turn into a chore

[ulav8r]

When I was going to CST, one of the instructors said the ideal situation would be to buy 4 corner lots on a busy intersection. Then build a bar on one corner, a brothel, on the second, a casino on the third corner, and your gunsmithing shop on the last corner. The profits from the other three businesses would allow you to live while you enjoyed doing gunsmithing. The main drawback to doing well is getting good enough and fast enough to make good wages. Many jobs that come in will cost more in time than the guns are worth or will require parts that are hard or impossible to acquire.

[zymguy]

lol thats a good one ! guess in a way im 1/3 there then =) you wouldnt take the jobs you KNOW are losses even before you start...right?

[John Taylor]

What do you fing to be the limmiting factor for profit ? Lack of work? Lack of time? Too much tax/utilitys/insurance/etc. ?

Tough questions. I have always had plenty of work, lack of energy may be part of the problem. Five days a week seems to be plenty of time but then keeping up on the paper work takes it toll also. I'm an unpaid state tax collector ( sales tax). Property tax is about $300 a month here. Utilities about $200/ month. I only have property insurance. Found out if you have liability insurance it is easier to get sued, without it most lawyers will not take on a case because they know they will not get paid. According to the finance company I need to keep working til I'm 93.

[John Taylor]

A fellow gunsmith told me how to make a million as a gunsmith, he said start with five million. I guess I was a little well off when I started, I loved machine work enough that I bought a lathe and mill way before I had to make a living as a gun smith. Now I have three lathes and two mills, only bought one of each after I started my business. I work mostly on old guns and make the parts that I can't buy. Being able to thread a barrel is nothing when you have to make a #1-72 screw to fit in an old Winchester model 12. Try cutting threads when you have to hold a magnifying glass with one hand. The first one fell in the chip pan and I just started on another one. A customer was watching and asked why I didn't look for it, I got a good laugh. Try to find a screw that is 1/8" long and 1/16" diameter among all the chips. Shop rate is $120 per hour but I never charge that much. If I charged for every minute like a lawyer I would probably be retired by now. Several years ago I installed a high $ target barrel on a target rifle for another shop and charged $180 for the work (Parts were supplied). When the customer came in to pick it up and was told it would be $180 he said "that can't be good". When ask what the problem was he said that the last time he had a barrel installed on his action it cost $1800. I have wondered how a shop can charge that much for a couple hours work.

[waksupi]

If it were me, I'd go a bit different direction. There are a lot of folks wanting cerakoting done on their guns. You do need GOOD sprayer, compressor and an oven, and a bunch of not cheap coatings. past that it's time and experience. And appears to be decent money in it.


This is a pretty good suggestion, along with bluing. Better to specialize, than to try and be all things to all people.

No matter what hobby you turn in to a job, it becomes exactly that, a job.

[Handloader109]

Well, if you look at some of the guns (mainly those Evil black ones) that some of these guys coat, I don't think you could get bored with the variety. A lot of disassembly and reassembly. A number of old guns that need a bit of work and they want a solid coating that is better than blueing. There is one pretty new guy close to me ND a friend trying it as a PT job. Good money in it and you can do other things besides guns. One guy did a Jeep interior the other day. And I guarantee it wasn't a $50 job that was grumbled about. I'd almost start it if I had the equipment. Just saying..

[Handloader109]

197866
197867197868197869

Just some random pics I grabbed off a Facebook group for coaters. They Even saved a rusted 1911. Id have done a bit different color scheme, but it works. Ton of different types of work.

Just sayin'. And it seems if you are good, you have a decent rep and folks will ship you work pretty steadily. Would help being in a rural area.

Oh, and I love repetitive work. Time flies and if you are oriced well, money does too!

[waksupi]

Along with the other finishes, there is also a great demand for color case hardening. Just going into the finishing end of the business may feed you better than trying to be a full spectrum gunsmith.

[zymguy]

Ok im giving the finishing aspect more thought. If so many of you see a market, there is one. I guess one advantage of the course is to get to try my hand at it and see if i enjoy it.

[zymguy]

This is a pretty good suggestion, along with bluing. Better to specialize, than to try and be all things to all people.

No matter what hobby you turn in to a job, it becomes exactly that, a job.

Respectfully, thats the least of my worries, Im sure its true for some but, I have been warned it will hapen to my career for nearly a decade.
I still love brewing !

[beezapilot]

I visited some high end gun shops in the last year, the Connecticut Shotgun Company was by far and away the most impressive place that I've been in quite some time.
https://www.connecticutshotgun.com/
They do a lot of work in house, and are most always hiring specialty guys- inlay, checker, engravers. Good pay and benefits, someone else worries about the liability insurance and keeps the lights on. Specializing in something will most always have a market....

[zymguy]

well i filled out the fedral financal aid form today , now ill go looking for a private school loan. Im not to sure where to start?
Cheers
Ben

[Der Gebirgsjager]

These threads are always interesting to read, and there is always a lot of good advice. I was a general gunsmith for 30 years, and my replies tend to run on way too long, so I'll limit myself to a few observations. I attended the Colorado School of Trades in 1981-82. At the time it was a one year course. What made it different than most is that it was like a job. You had a choice of day or swing shift, and showed up for 8 1/2 hours daily (1/2 hour lunch) 5 days per week. It started with the Pseudo Dept. where the use of basic hand tools was taught through the completion of various projects, and where one learned polishing and bluing. Then it was into the Welding Dept. where oxy-acetylene welding, silver soldering, and brazing were taught. Then into the Stockmaking Dept. where the minimum requirement was one stock from a blank and two from semi-inlets. Next was the Machine Shop where one got a very good grounding on the lathe. Then into the Design & Function Dept. where one learned much about general repair work and used the skills previous learned as the repairs could consist of refinishing, restocking, re-barreling, parts fitting---you name it. It was a very good school, and I'm glad I attended, but my information on the school is now 35 years obsolete. If you contact them they'll be happy to send you information all about their program. When I attended one got a certificate of completion, but now you can get an AS in Industrial Arts.

GhostHawk is very right about the need to have insurance. Also correct are those who warn about the quantity and expense of tools and tooling. It is kind of a "nickel and dime you to death" occupation in that if you are a general gunsmith there is always a job walking in the door that you've never done before, and invariably a new tool is called for. Finding your niche is important. Although I did general repairs and to some extent custom work, I stayed away from engraving and checkering. Probably 80% of my business was rebluing, and I was good at it and "the only game in town." But today's gun fans are getting away from bluing and the various coatings are becoming increasingly popular, so there is truth in that advice also. Probably the most successful smiths today are those who specialize in areas like custom 1911 building, AR-15 building, etc. Hard to break into these areas because they are already so well occupied and the business goes to those who have established a "name", but it can be done. One thing for certain, once word gets around that you do good work you'll usually have more business than you can handle and probably become backlogged. On the other hand, substandard work will kill your business off pretty quickly. Good luck to you if you decide to follow this path.

[wonderwolf]

I applied to the school in CO last year and was looking for a change in career and a direction I could see myself doing well in and being happy with.
I got a call back for a interview and I turned it down even after I had gone through all the work to get to that point, letters of recomedation etc etc.

why?
Couple of reasons that may only make sense to me but I think are still valid to put out there
#1 One law could easily put you out of work (I'll be honest this was my biggest worry of the industry, this was just last year so pre election hype was still very high).
#2 Cost (this one is more personal) , My sister who is a CFP and I sat down and calculated what 2 years of school would run me in another state (being a resident after the first year factored in to "out of state" tuition etc. Would be roughly $38,000 low end.
#3 A lot of guns coming onto the market are not worth customers money to have fixed by a professional, The gunsmithing industry is highly niche...You specialize in 1911's, Long range bench guns or what have you and you might make a run of it.

I think a lot if I made the right choice to not go back to school, I have no debt but I already have a Bachelors degree. I have 10 years of hobby level machining behind me and its getting more complex every year. In the future I may start making products that I've been working on and that won't cost me 2 years away from my girlfriend and a boatload of money but would still be doing something I love.

If I were single....the choice may have gone the other way but there is a lot that goes into a decision like that.


Good luck with your decision!

[williamwaco]

Another issue. I was a rural person for 40 years. I saw lots of guys try it. Some were really good. None could make a living. The problem was that in general., rural people with broken guns can't afford to pay for repairs.

[wonderwolf]

Another issue. I was a rural person for 40 years. I saw lots of guys try it. Some were really good. None could make a living. The problem was that in general., rural people with broken guns can't afford to pay for repairs.

And when a Axis with a 3-9 scope already installed can be had for around $350 at most its hard to justify....

[zymguy]

I applied to the school in CO last year and was looking for a change in career and a direction I could see myself doing well in and being happy with.
I got a call back for a interview and I turned it down even after I had gone through all the work to get to that point, letters of recomedation etc etc.

why?
Couple of reasons that may only make sense to me but I think are still valid to put out there
#1 One law could easily put you out of work (I'll be honest this was my biggest worry of the industry, this was just last year so pre election hype was still very high).
#2 Cost (this one is more personal) , My sister who is a CFP and I sat down and calculated what 2 years of school would run me in another state (being a resident after the first year factored in to "out of state" tuition etc. Would be roughly $38,000 low end.
#3 A lot of guns coming onto the market are not worth customers money to have fixed by a professional, The gunsmithing industry is highly niche...You specialize in 1911's, Long range bench guns or what have you and you might make a run of it.

I think a lot if I made the right choice to not go back to school, I have no debt but I already have a Bachelors degree. I have 10 years of hobby level machining behind me and its getting more complex every year. In the future I may start making products that I've been working on and that won't cost me 2 years away from my girlfriend and a boatload of money but would still be doing something I love.

If I were single....the choice may have gone the other way but there is a lot that goes into a decision like that.


Good luck with your decision!

#1 is a significant concern of mine, I did not articulate it as well as you state it here. I get passed it only by "keeping my day job" which i will be doing.
#2 ill have in state tuition and will stay at my brothers house 4 days a week. I'll be putting 400 miles on my car every week going between my house and my brothers house. This certainly will not be cheap, I hope to take a student loan for 10k or less. Again thats certainly not nothing, but I think a debt i can get out from under fairly quickly when I am done with schol (not nessisarily by gunsmithing, tho)
#3 I'd love to specalize in old stuff but thats just something ill have to find what the market will bear when im compleated.

Thanks for the posts guys !!! keep the advice coming

[lightload]

If the same guys who pay the going rate for lawn mower repair would be willing to pay similar gunsmith rates, then maybe we would have more gunsmiths.

[zymguy]

The program in pine city was so popular thay added a second session last yr, they hope to graduate 28 gunsmiths may 2018.

[LMB]

I graduated from Pine a few years ago. Like any school you get out of it what you put into it. I would highly recommend declaring machining as a second major and signing up for the machining classes and getting them done before getting in real deep in the gunsmithing classes. It will make your life much easier. It doesn't hurt and is not hard to graduate with a machining and gunsmith diploma. You will be attending for 3 years regardless because of the way the classes space out.

It will cost you much more than they say to attend, finding enough project guns gets expensive. The tool list they provide is pretty incomplete so you will be buying more tools than you think and some you do not really need. MSC, Zorro, Brownells, Midway USA, and Amazon will be your friend.

Plan on attending 5 days per week from 8:00 - 4:00 and taking advantage of the open lab times. If you really want to get more projects done go on Saturdays also. The more you do the more you will learn and the better prepared you will be when you open the shop you are dreaming of.

I wish you luck. I enjoyed my 3 years there.

[zymguy]

It will cost you much more than they say to attend, finding enough project guns gets expensive. The tool list they provide is pretty incomplete

Id be very interested in both some kind of gun project list and your tool list, ill ask that you add a reading list to that too .
I know things have changed a bit but the idea of looking for project guns now really appeals.

Thanks
Ben

[Any Cal.]

I found the idea of gunsmithing intriguing, but haven't pursued it. My biggest concerns are the current prices of firearms. As was mentioned, most guns are getting ridiculously cheap. What can you do to them that isn't going to 'total' them out? Say that someone may be interested in putting 1/2 of the original cost into repairs or customization. What can you do for $160-250, when that includes the price of parts and tax as well? Can you do it 40x/wk?

I can see some of the low hanging fruit being profitable, but wonder about how much call there is for much of the old school work anymore. Not much installing sights, drilling for mounts, blueing, etc.

Like I say, I'm somewhat ignorant on the subject, but personal observation is that most people don't want to put lots of money into gun tinkering anymore. It usually costs less to wait a year and buy a short barrel model when it comes out, or a different caliber, or whatever. Fewer reloaders, even fewer good reloaders, so wildcatting is down. ARs and Glocks make Legos seem complicated, and new Tupperware guns are cheap as chips. The older guns that might be worth messing with are either too unappreciated to have a value, or worth too much to chance destroying their value.

Not saying it can't be done, just don't understand exactly how.

[Hooker53]

I would suggest first to enter a Gun school because of your love of firearms. If you get good enough at it, the funds will come but try not to expect from the very first to make enough to buy your own tropical island. Anything can happen but don't expect it.

Roy
Hooker53

[zymguy]

I'm hoping to break even on the schooling, i do not intend to ever leave my day job.

[egg250]

I did it. I took the AGI Master Gunsmithing correspondence course a few years ago, thinking I could make a modest income to supplement my pension. It was a substantial investment and provided very important information about the various firearms designs, systems and problem solving. It also included some entry level training on welding and machining.

I opened my home based business in Oct 2015. If I depended on the shop to earn a living our family would be eating lots of Ramen. As the sole proprietor, on any given day in the shop, I spend about 3 - 4 solid hours working on jobs. The rest of that time is research, answering the phone, ordering parts, customer service, etc. My father is a self employed machinist, near 70 and still working. When he works a job, he can factor in his 10% for waste/mistakes (not that he needs it anymore with his vast experience), if he makes a mistake he can start on a new part. As a gunsmith you might be working on a Savage double barrel shotgun they only made for 4 years, ending production in 1947. Parts just aren't available. If you screw something up you need to be able to make a new part but you have destroyed collector value in the gun. Ask me how I know. I don't have any overhead and, at $40 per hour, I'm not really making money but I'm able to fund a few purchases here and there. I'd like to charge more, maybe next year...

I'm glad that I have done this and don't plan to close my doors anytime soon. My hope is that, as my business experience grows, I will become more efficient and thus more profitable. I am considering restructuring, adding a online store to sell accessories and firearms.

Bottom line, you need a good business model and a good head for business. You won't make much in your first few years. As you try to do firearms sales to supplement your gunsmithing income you'll realize there isn't much markup on firearms. You will want to have a fairly well stocked retail area, selling accessories and such. That is where you will be able to make a living.

[zymguy]

I've emailed my appeal and have every reason to believe they'll quickly take my tuition money.
Time to start gathering tools and books ! Ill include a link that is from the schools website Im hoping anyone willing to click it and read through will have an opinion on whas good and what’ll just be wasting my money. For example I’m pretty sure that Ill go Hazard Fraught brand for the “1 Tool Box, 8 or 11 drawer”
47 days till school starts
http://www.pine.edu/media/pdf/GUNSMITHING%20TECHNOLOGY%20TOOL%20LIST%202017-2018.pdf

[JBinMN]

Best of Luck to ya!
:)

[zymguy]

Well, I did not win my appeal back then. Work got very busy and school was out of priority. Recently I left the brewery and today I attended the orientation class you need to sit through to apply to the gunsmithing program. It is unlikely I’ll be able to get a spot in this falls class so I’m going to take a year of machining while I’m waiting for my spot to open in the gunsmithing program.

[pietro]

.

Keep in mind that even refinishing when another person's entire firearm is involved is a form of gunsmithing, for which an FFL (and all it's attendant responsibilities & requirements that need to be met) will be mandatory under Federal Law.

IMO, the chances of a decent income are better if you become a qualified machinist with a shop.


.

[zymguy]

I will be getting both degrees, I agree there is more security in the machining degree


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[Ed K]

In my experience most of the best specialty gunsmiths are machinists first - read "specialty" as also profitable. Now if being a true general purpose gunsmith is of the highest priority you can ignore my comments. However this thread pretty much proves out that trying to be competitive on business relating to black composite firearms, making internal parts on 75 year old classics, fixing bubba'd firearms and stopping to mount a scope "right now" for a walk-in customer all at the same time is going to be really tough while working anything less than a crazy amount of hours per week and still pay the bills. Now getting that primary machinist training and finding your niche while hobby gunsmithing or part-time 'smithing (short term) seems to be a common theme among those who transition and develop a name as someone well-known to build accurate rifles, custom revolvers, etc.

[zymguy]

I will start my first day of classes Monday. Only one class ( metallurgy) relates to gunsmithing, but I’ll be happy to have started.

[Scrounge]

I will start my first day of classes Monday. Only one class ( metallurgy) relates to gunsmithing, but I’ll be happy to have started.

Too cool! I've been taking a machining class on a very part time basis for closing on 6 years now. Good luck, and have a great time in your classes!

[Green Frog]

15 years ago (when I retired from teaching high school science) I took 3-4 machine shop classes at my local community college(they don’t offer gunsmithing per se.) Then I got busy with other things and drifted away from it, though I have a lathe and small mill in my basement. I’ve been “going to get back to it” for about 14 years now. Maybe if I start doing some simple machining again it will inspire me to do some gun work...

Froggie

[country gent]

Theres one thing most over look when considering becoming a gunsmith or Machinist / tradesman. Its not just the schooling and or degrees you have. It also takes years of exceptional work to build the reputation and gain the experience needed to make top pay. In the gunsmith trade it also takes years to build up the following and to get the needed word of mouth and recommendations from clients. If your going to try it with out support you are in for long days. Start at 6:00 work on projects in the shop till 9 or so. Then customers and order parts materials and plan schedule work, then maybe some "interrupted time" back in the shop. Some jobs may require most of the morning in set up.

When I started out in the tool and die trade I was amazed at the "old guys" sat at their bench didnt look like they were doing much but drinking coffee but at the end of the day they had a big pile of chips and parts to turn in.

[John Taylor]

I did not go to gunsmith school but I have had a few work for me that have. I have worked in several trades in my life that helped me learn mechanical skills, welding and machine work. I enjoyed working with metal so much that I got a welder and lathe for my little home shop as a hobby. When I was in my 40s I went into business with a couple younger guys building and repairing logging equipment. A few years of that and I was ready to do something ells, partners decided they didn't need me anymore. I had always thought of making a rifling machine so set out to build one with a little help from Jerry Cunningham (Orion Rifle Barrel ). He gave me a truck load of reject barrels to play with. After playing at rifling for a while I decided to put an add in Gunlist. My first customer wanted me to copy a pre war model 70 Winchester barrel from a blank. I had to buy a small amount of tooling to make the front sight ramp ramp which is integral with the barrel. Customer was pleased with the work and flooded me with more. I have been gunsmithing for over 20 years now and have customers across the country.
There are several types of gunsmiths, some are parts changers, some only work on certain models and some will try to fix anything that comes in the door. Gunsmith school will give the basics but then you need experience which only comes with doing the job. I my case I had experience in welding and machine work before I took on gunsmithing which started as a hobby for me.

[Doughty]

Another thing that is needed is "talent." There are lots of ballplayers that would like to play "professional" ball. Most don't make it. Some people have talent, some don't.

[waksupi]

I did not go to gunsmith school but I have had a few work for me that have. I have worked in several trades in my life that helped me learn mechanical skills, welding and machine work. I enjoyed working with metal so much that I got a welder and lathe for my little home shop as a hobby. When I was in my 40s I went into business with a couple younger guys building and repairing logging equipment. A few years of that and I was ready to do something ells, partners decided they didn't need me anymore. I had always thought of making a rifling machine so set out to build one with a little help from Jerry Cunningham (Orion Rifle Barrel ). He gave me a truck load of reject barrels to play with. After playing at rifling for a while I decided to put an add in Gunlist. My first customer wanted me to copy a pre war model 70 Winchester barrel from a blank. I had to buy a small amount of tooling to make the front sight ramp ramp which is integral with the barrel. Customer was pleased with the work and flooded me with more. I have been gunsmithing for over 20 years now and have customers across the country.
There are several types of gunsmiths, some are parts changers, some only work on certain models and some will try to fix anything that comes in the door. Gunsmith school will give the basics but then you need experience which only comes with doing the job. I my case I had experience in welding and machine work before I took on gunsmithing which started as a hobby for me.

Is Jerry still making barrels? He's local here, but I haven't seen him in years.

[John Taylor]

Is Jerry still making barrels? He's local here, but I haven't seen him in years.

Jerry sold off his machines years ago. Jim Carpenter has a few and has been making barrels for about 20 years. I get drilled blanks from him sometimes and a barrel or two once in a while. Before I got into the business I bought quite a few barrels from Jerry. His shop was in two old railroad cars.

[DeadWoodDan]

I will start my first day of classes Monday. Only one class ( metallurgy) relates to gunsmithing, but I’ll be happy to have started.

Good Luck! It's great to have goals, reach them, and make new goals. My advice for what little it's worth...keep moving forward. I went to community college for machining/tool and die. Was fortunate to have one instructor who loved firearms and opened my eyes to keep me involved enough to finish. Long story short 15+yrs of machining and good Managers/Leaders taking night classes I've not only completed by B.S. but a Masters degree and a love for all things Quality. My point is I would have never imagined being were I am today and do not know what life change is next. Keep doing what you love, learn, and pushing lead down range. If it wasn't for this forum and my love of shooting I would have given up many years ago.

By the way, met one of my best friends who is still machining in our company that introduced me to the BW. We have taken many trips over the years. Like all of us you may not realize but at least once a week if not more I would change seats with you in a heart beat to live in Ely! I've always wondered what it would be like to live, work & reside in your area. I am very jealous to say the least. Only second favorite thing to do as I only get up there once a year. Back when I was younger I did 2-3 trips for a few yrs.

[zymguy]

One more day of class and spring break begins, I'm 8 weeks of 16 through ( this semester ) and its going well.

[roverboy]

Glad it's going good for you. I got a friend who is a graduate of Colorado school.

[flatsguide]

Anybody, well most anybody can be a “gunsmith” but being a “damned good gunsmith” is a horse of a different color. Do you have a bit of “OCD” in your blood? IMO if one does “not” have have a bit of it he can be a “gunsmith”, but a long way from “a damned good gunsmith”. You will need to be willing to do the books and run it as a business. Don’t promise on what you cannot deliver. I’d be more inclined to go to a school that teaches machining with manual tools. Lathes, mills, surface grinder. Maybe you can do this in night school. Don’t tell them though you want to be a gunsmith. Learn a lot of the different operations on a lathe, turning, drilling, reaming, boring, threading etc. on the mill learn, basic milling, picking up edges, boring, use of sine bar, indexing/dividing head work, etc. Surface grinder the same learn all you can. Metallurgy too. It would be IMO best to specialize in the part you enjoy and can do the best. Stock work and checkering requires the least capital outlay. Can you see the “rifle stock” inside of a blank of wood and chip and file away all the wood that is not the “rifle stock”?.
I never thought of a guy that did general gun repair as a “gunsmith” just a parts changer with a set of needle files. If you become a “damned good gunsmith” gun nuts will beat a path to your door and you will turn away work you do not want to do by the very fact that your prices are high. I’m a hard ass but that’s my honest thoughts.
Cheers Richard

[flatsguide]

PS,
Throw metrology into the mix too.
You want to protect your family and yourself from litigation. There are people out there that sue at the drop of a hat, some that sue for a living and some that sue because they are the dregs of humanity and just mean.
Find a lawyer who enjoys guns and shooting, he may wind up being a customer, treat him like a friend and he may well become a friend. He will set up the companies etc. Second, shop for a loan officer, try to find one that is a gun nut too, even look at small banks. Set up two corporations, the first is the company that does the advertising, rents the space ( if it is your garage the first company rents space from you). The first company holds the FFL, business name and does the gun work. The first company owns basically nothing...if you are going to get sued they will sue the first company and not you personally, (see “corporate veil” below).The second company is a leasing company, it owns all of your tools, machinery, company car etc. That company is normally not touched and if you HAVE to fold the first company you still control the assets of the second. Ask your lawyer or Google the meaning of “piercing the corporate veil”.
Above all, be honest even if it hurts, don’t promise on what you can’t deliver, don’t take on more work than you can handle, make sure you don’t fix one part of the firearm and screw up or somehow damage another part. Don’t buy cheap tools, there not. Get an accountant and don’t try to defraud the IRS, run afoul of the IRS and all the above is moot. They can or will take your house and company one and two. Take every deduction you legally can.
Do R&D. Shoot in competition in the field you enjoy, you will expose yourself (as company one) and your work to others. The better you shoot the more the competition will want you to do their gun work. All the costs of competing will be tax deductible.
Did I say don’t mess with the IRS. Keep good records. Don’t co mingle funds, your families bank account is strictly separate from the two companies and don’t co mingle funds between company one and two.
I wish you the best! “Illegitimi non Carborundum”.
Cheers Richard

[MrWolf]

Along with flatsguide's comments, do not cheap out on the formation of the corporations or go with what a buddy told you. Get the advice of a CPA that specializes in that field- ask around for recommendations. There will be minimum costs ever year with corporations in their tax filings, etc.. Know that up front and know it is a recurring business expense. If your initial setup is not done correctly and in accordance with your attorney's advice, you are asking for trouble. Take the advice and don't be cheap up front. Seen it bite to many down the road. Was a CPA for over 30 years before retirement. Good luck and ask others in the industry but do your own research before deciding on something. Learn more that way.
Ron

[zymguy]

Thank you guys.


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[zymguy]

BUSN 1120 BUSN Computer Application 3.00 A
MATH 1256 Mathematical Thinking 3.00 C
WELD 1570 01 Metallurgy 1.00 A
MTTP 1241 01 Intro to CAD 3.00 B
WELD 1501 01 Intro to Welding 3.00 A
Grade Point Average (GPA)
Level Attempted Credits Earned Credits Grade Points GPA
Undergraduate / Term 13.00 13.00 43.00 3.30

[MrWolf]

Congrats, nice job. Keep it up.

[zymguy]

First day of actual gunsmith school 0800 tomorrow (Mon) "rifle design and function" Looking forward to it ! Like opening morning.
Was a little weird leaving my house and driving some 4 hours south. Lots of wildfire, I left a message with my closest neighbor that all humans and pets are out of the house , taped my phone number in the window. If we get evacuated itd be for the smoke, Im not too worried about actually burning down the house. (well, from the glenwood fire anyway )

[flatsguide]

Enjoy! BTW as a young man I used to canoe the Boundary Waters out of Ely. Had a nice wood canvas Old Town then later a Kevlar Bell Magic, Bell Canadienne and a Wee non nah Sundowner.
Cheers Richard

[Rapier]

Got several friends that taught and graduated at the Colorado school. Most are gone today. It is kind of odd to me how they spent years accumulating knowledge, only to go quickly. I sometimes wonder if the chemicals, contribute to their early demise, especially the guys that spent hours ove hot blue salts and soft soldered/ leaded ribs and barrels.

[flatsguide]

Rapier, do you recall the names of the fellows from the Colorado school, the “Colorado School of Trades”. I graduated there in the late ‘sixties. I’m still around and I’m 83...only the good die young. Jerry Fisher a CSof Trades graduate just past away at 92?
Cheers Richard

[zymguy]

Moved my toolbox out and shook hands with my instructors . learned enough to know i dont know sqwat.

[M-Tecs]

Congrats, now that you are done with school any thoughts as to where you're going to hang your shingle?

[frkelly74]

Story...... Back when the economy fell into the hole , 2006/7, I went to Michigan Works to get a different job and the aptitude test showed I was likely a good candidate to be trained for several things. HVAC was suggested and gunsmith was on the list too... also yard maintenance and way down the list was truck driving, Hvac was a two year training program, plenty of time to starve to death. truck driving was two weeks training, They pushed the yard work program, I think all those busy gove bureaucrats really needed someone to mow their yards. They flatly said they would not consider training to be a gunsmith,,, no way, like are you crazy? Foolishly I picked truck driving and it was not a good fit for me.

[Wag]

Thanks for the update, zg.

Keep us posted on how it goes!

--Wag--

[HWooldridge]

One of my godsons went through the Colorado school about 12 years ago. He graduated with multiple projects that he brought home to finish, but he hasn’t used the training to any great extent and is now in a completely different line of work. He did acquire a vertical mill and I sold him a lathe last year, so he may be considering getting back into it.

Although he picked up some metal working skills, the most impressive thing he can do is stock work. He can take a blank slab of wood and turn out a finished stock, complete with checkering and all the miscellaneous details. He stocked a model 70 for his dad and it looks better than factory.

[Barry54]

Moved my toolbox out and shook hands with my instructors . learned enough to know i dont know sqwat.

Congratulations!

Do you need three phase power to run your machines?

[Rockindaddy]

Being a gunsmith is very rewarding. There is always a need for a gunsmith. You may not get wealthy but will always have beer money. But consider this. I have been a gunsmith for over 50 years. Never went to a gunsmith school. Had a Federal 07 Manufacturers License for over 31 years. All the men and women that have worked for me in my shop over the years and built firearms: the specific skills required to turn out good quality comes down to mechanical skills. Have had several gunsmith school graduates that worked out ok. The tool and die trained individuals along with journeymen machinist apprentices worked out much better. My advice to you would be to attend a school for machinists or tool and die school. There are some great evening classes offered at some universities. A friend attended one of these classes and I actually saw a great improvement in his workmanship. That way you could keep a day job. Don't waist your money on a gunsmith school. Gunsmith schools are expensive. There are some great publications on stock work. Buy a gunsmithing book and digest it. Also there are terrific videos that demonstrate gunsmithing.

[waksupi]

Being a gunsmith is very rewarding. There is always a need for a gunsmith. You may not get wealthy but will always have beer money. But consider this. I have been a gunsmith for over 50 years. Never went to a gunsmith school. Had a Federal 07 Manufacturers License for over 31 years. All the men and women that have worked for me in my shop over the years and built firearms: the specific skills required to turn out good quality comes down to mechanical skills. Have had several gunsmith school graduates that worked out ok. The tool and die trained individuals along with journeymen machinist apprentices worked out much better. My advice to you would be to attend a school for machinists or tool and die school. There are some great evening classes offered at some universities. A friend attended one of these classes and I actually saw a great improvement in his workmanship. That way you could keep a day job. Don't waist your money on a gunsmith school. Gunsmith schools are expensive. There are some great publications on stock work. Buy a gunsmithing book and digest it. Also there are terrific videos that demonstrate gunsmithing.

Good advise. Tool and die knowledge will take you further than anything else. Doing wood work is gravy. If you just want to work on black rifles, little knowledge would be necessary.

[deltaenterprizes]

Moved my toolbox out and shook hands with my instructors . learned enough to know i dont know sqwat.
Did you finish the projects that you got from me?

[zymguy]

Congrats, now that you are done with school any thoughts as to where you're going to hang your shingle?Ely mn .

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[zymguy]

Congratulations!

Do you need three phase power to run your machines?

Haven't bought any machines uet

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[zymguy]

Did you finish the projects that you got from me?Did I buy the 94 and 788 from you ?
I should post a photo of that one (94)I'm pretty happy with how it turned out . 788 got chambered but not completed. If not which did I get from you?

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[zymguy]

Don't waist your money on a gunsmith school. Gunsmith schools are expensive. .

Well Im graduating so it's too late .
I did get a machining degree as well while I was there.

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[zymguy]

Good advise. Tool and die knowledge will take you further than anything else. Doing wood work is gravy. If you just want to work on black rifles, little knowledge would be necessary.I made 3 stocks from wood blanks , I found it to be slow and challenging process .
I'm not very interested in ars but I worked as a machinist for sota arms who makes them so i know my way around one pretty well. Today was my last shift , I will miss the machines

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[M-Tecs]

Congratulations!

Do you need three phase power to run your machines?

Haven't bought any machines uet

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Most of the serious machine tools are going to be 3 phase. Depending on what you get rotary or digital phase converts are an easy and cost-effective option. Machine requirements are based on what your products you will be producing. General gunsmithing doesn't need much for machine tools. I know a couple off smiths that make a good living with no machines other than a drill press and a 12" disk sander.

Building long range match rifles gets more involved. Muzzle brakes and similar might benefit from CNC.

I use a 10-horse rotary phase for my two Bridgeport's, Hardinge HLV-H, 5 horse 3 phase compressor and two surface grinders. My Sunnen hone and bench grinders/sanders/polishers are the only single phase I have for metal working.

[zymguy]

Most of the serious machine tools are going to be 3 phase. Depending on what you get rotary or digital phase converts are an easy and cost-effective option. Machine requirements are based on what your product will be producing. General gunsmithing doesn't need much for machine tools. Building long range match rifles gets more involved.

I use a 10-horse rotary phase for my two Bridgeport's, Hardinge HLV-H, 5 horse 3 phase compressor and two surface grinders.

Haven't bought a lathe yet . I will likely start with a smaller lathe in the 12"-14 " swing neighborhood . Changing careers and being a full time student last couple years I dont have a pile of cash to start with . The space im renting will be unfortunately limited in both space and power. While not ideal I can chamber many barrel profiles through the head gordy gritters style with a lathe that size. When I land in a more permanent space ill get a bigger more rigid lathe , probably a haas tool room . Shoot me a message if youd be willing to show me your set up.
I think im going to spend my first money equipment wise for finishes. Things like hot bluing tanks, burners, spray booth , and oven etc The space i have will accommodate that type of work and its easy equipment to move when I can .
Before all that its a safe , security cameras/sensors and an exterior double door

[M-Tecs]

Haven't bought a lathe yet . I will likely start with a smaller lathe in the 12"-14 " swing neighborhood . Changing careers and being a full time student last couple years I dont have a pile of cash to start with . The space im renting will be unfortunately limited in both space and power. While not ideal I can chamber many barrel profiles through the head gordy gritters style with a lathe that size. When I land in a more permanent space ill get a bigger more rigid lathe , probably a haas tool room . Shoot me a message if youd be willing to show me your set up.
I think im going to spend my first money equipment wise for finishes. Things like hot bluing tanks, burners, spray booth , and oven etc The space i have will accommodate that type of work and its easy equipment to move when I can .
Before all that its a safe , security cameras/sensors and an exterior double door

No problem on showing you my setup in a month or two. Currently doing a redo of the layout with the addition of the surface grinders and the 3 phase compressor.

The Haas TL-1 & TL-2's are great lathes for serious gunsmith applications. I have read the new ones no longer include using manual controls.

Do you know Paul Payette from SOTA?

[zymguy]

No, im guessing he's sales? I worked evenings and weekends at north branch mostly so I was usually the only one there.

[waksupi]

I made 3 stocks from wood blanks , I found it to be slow and challenging process .
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You will gain speed with experience. I was pretty timid the first few I built. I got to where I knew the wood would have to be taken out, and would hog them out in pretty short order.

[deltaenterprizes]

Did I buy the 94 and 788 from you ?
I should post a photo of that one (94)I'm pretty happy with how it turned out . 788 got chambered but not completed. If not which did I get from you?

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You got those from me.
Thanks for the update!

[oldbear1950]

I wanted to do that, did North American correspondence school, Penn Foster correspondence school, Modern gun smithing correspondence school, both the beginning course and the advanced course, and finally got an associates degree from Senoran Desert Institute. I also took a machine shop course and received a certificate to work as a machinist.
The problem I have is no experience at working as a gunsmith. Now if i could just find a gunsmith here locally that would do an apprenticeship, I would be all set.
Seems like no one wants an apprentice, even one that would work for nothing.
Now the real problem is my age, at 73, and the fact that I am unable to relocate to another area. I have a disabled step daughter.