Lyman sabot slugs

[Blood Trail]

Does anyone roll crimp them? Manual says to fold crimp. I wonder if there is a reason for fold crimping? Accuracy maybe?


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[elvas]

Yes, always. With a Gualandi clear overshot disc.

[Y-man]

I have always Roll-Crimped. Manual does not say ONLY fold-crimp [Or so I read in a post somewhere on this forum!]

[rancher1913]

I have done a bunch with roll crimp and have had no problems, always careful though because the manual does say fold only. would love to have a cronie or pressure test of the two styles to see how much different they are.

[Ford SD]

Does anyone roll crimp them? Manual says to fold crimp. I wonder if there is a reason for fold crimping? Accuracy maybe?



I have done both

Fold crimp is so much quicker

I have always used a different hull colour on my slugs BTW

[Drm50]

I had to hunt with slugs here in Ohio. Until we got rifle a couple years ago we were always looking
for the ultimate slug & slug gun. I spent a lot of money and time on slugs. Foster/ Fosters with the
Rifled grooves, Lyman Slug with both rolled and folded crimp. Even tried 12g balls. The best slugs
I loaded were Lymans loaded in Remington Brass cases with a plastic disc punched out of milk jugs
over the slug before crimping. Loaded on rifle press with RCBS dies. I shot smooth bore Brn A5
with Redding Reciever sight and off bench I could do 21/2"-5shot groups at 60yds. I know some
of the rifled guns will do better with sabots, but I didn't feel that was to shabby for smooth bore.
We shoot slugs here all year at shoots, which were mostly shot at 100', I won my share and got in
a lot of practice for deer season.

[longbow]

Funny, like everything slug related there seems to be a variety of opinions, depending on source, of what to do's and what not to do's.

BPI says that roll crimps provide more initial resistance so promote a better burn cycle than fold crimps yet I have read (in a Tom Armbrust article IIRC) that a deep fold crimp can raise pressures quite significantly. I suspect a deep roll crimp may do the same but short of having everything tested its a guess.

I just checked my Lyman manual and it lists only fold crimps for the Lyman sabot slug but lists both fold and roll crimps for several other slugs. What is notable is that in all cases (for 12 ga.) with same components the powder charge was lower with fold crimp than with roll crimp and generally the pressure was the same or similar and generally velocity was lower. So that indicates that the fold crimp is producing higher pressure than roll crimp.

An example:

- Federal 2 3/4" plastic hunting case
- 475 gr. Lyman Foster slug
- primer = Win 209
- powder = SR4756 @ 42 grs.
- one bpgs
- one 12 ga. B.P. 1/2" fiber
- two 12 ga. B.P. .125" cards
- roll crimp
- velocity = 1498
- pressure = 10,400 LUP

- Federal 2 3/4" plastic hunting case
- 475 gr. Lyman Foster slug
- primer - Win 209
- powder = SR4756 @ 40 grs.
- one bpgs
- one 12 ga. B.P. 1/2" fiber
- two 12 ga. B.P. .125" cards
- roll crimp
- velocity = 1564
- pressure = 10,200 LUP

So 2 grs. less powder (mot a lot) but higher velocity at virtually the same pressure (how does that work?)

And another:

- Federal 2 3/4" plastic hunting case
- Brenneke Slug
- Primer Win 209
- powder = SR4756 @ 36 grs.
- one bpgs
- one 12 ga. B.P. 1/2" fiber
- roll crimp
- velocity = 1532
- pressure = 10,500 LUP

- Federal 2 3/4" plastic hunting case
- Brenneke Slug
- Primer Win 209
- powder = SR4756 @ 33.5 grs.
- one bpgs
- one 12 ga. B.P. 1/2" fiber
- fold crimp
- velocity = 1457
- pressure = 9,800 LUP

This time lower velocity and lower pressure with fold crimp

Another:

- Remington Unibody SP 2 3/4" plastic case
- 475 Lyman Foster Slug
- Primer Win 209
- powder = SR4756 @ 38 grs.
- one bpgs
- one 12 ga. B.P. 1/2" fiber
- roll crimp
- velocity = 1576
- pressure = 10,400 LUP

- Remington Unibody SP 2 3/4" plastic case
- 475 Lyman Foster Slug
- Primer Win 209
- powder = SR4756 @ 35.5 grs.
- one bpgs
- one 12 ga. B.P. 1/2" fiber
- roll crimp
- velocity = 1529
- pressure = 10,500 LUP

Less powder yet almost same velocity and higher pressure with fold crimp.

Got another using Win AA hulls and 800X showing less powder but higher pressure with fold crimp but i'm tired of typing.

Seems to vary some but generally fold crimp has less powder charge and same or higher pressure according to my manual. Another slug loading mystery I guess ~ roll crimp or fold crimp" Does it matter?

Maybe I'd better get my butt in gear and try the Lyman sabot slug in my smoothbores. If Drm50 can get 2 1/2" groups at 60 yards that is good enough for me... if I can do it anyway. Surely the groups can't double in size by 100 yards can they? But even so say 5" to 6" at 100 yards would do me. I'm not real picky.

Longbow

[Blood Trail]

Yup, that's what the BPI manual says.


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[TonyfromItaly]

Goodmorning, here we mostly roll crimp slugs, lyman included. If i may say, make sure the hull is not skived or it will not put enough pressure on the slug. Fold crimping does increase the pressure and helps powder burn better. We avercome this by using faster burning powder. For example, for the Lyman slug we use powder for your 1 1/4 shot loads and increase it by 15%.

[Cap'n Morgan]

I plan on testing some roll crimped slugs to see what difference, if any, the depth/length of the crimp has on the velocity - which, of course, is related to the pressure. The loads & shells (Remington) will be identical , but the length of the shell will be 2.35" and 2.75", respectively.

[TonyfromItaly]

I plan on testing some roll crimped slugs to see what difference, if any, the depth/length of the crimp has on the velocity - which, of course, is related to the pressure. The loads & shells (Remington) will be identical , but the length of the shell will be 2.35" and 2.75", respectively.

Hello Cap'n Morgan, are Baschieri & Pellagri powders available in Denmark?

[Cap'n Morgan]

Tony.

No, the most common powders here are Norma, Vihtavuori and some Vectan powders. I have been lucky to find some Alliant powders like Unique, herco, Blue Dot and Steel, but apart from Steel they're hard to come by. Dedicated shotgun loaders are few and far between - I would say 95% of the reloaders here are loading for rifle or pistol.

[TonyfromItaly]

Cap'n, i was going to pass on a data for 470 ms and 820 bars, deadly on wild hogs. Quite a few folks here are crazy about using 800X, unfortunately it costs 69 euro for a 1 pound. Here we are lucky we have available pressure barrels to test loads for speed and pressure. Pistol powders are quite good for reloading shot and slugs as well. Nobel Sport powders available? Vectan SP8? One guy here tested a load for 500ms /1640 ft sec with gualandi 28 grams slug with acceptable pressure!

[Cap'n Morgan]

Tony.

I use Vectan AS powder for most of my slugs as I have enough of it to last me several lifetimes. I'ts great for loads in the 30-32 grams class with velocities in the 350-400 m/s range, but like all fast shotgun powders pressure will spike rapidly if you cross the threshold. For heavy slug loads at 36 gram and more I use Blue Dot.

I must admit I don't strive for speed as much as for accuracy. As long as the range is under 70 meters the trajectory is not that important and while I'm not recoil-shy I don't go looking for it.;-)

[TonyfromItaly]

Captain, if you you can get Vectan SP8 put 2.40 grams behind the lyman slug and you will see hight velocity and lower pressure. For target shooting i agree with you. However for a hunting situation with a 100 kg wild hog, to stop it in its tracks speed is very important. 470 + ms is deadly! :-P

[elvas]

Tony,
For even higher velocity, try Vectan SP2.

[TonyfromItaly]

Ciao Elvas, SP2 is excellent for 1 oz loads (28 g) in 28 ga. In 12 ga it is hard to make it burn with 56 grams, so i think it will not work for 34 grams slugs. It is used for supermagnum loads in 3 1/2 2 shells (12/89).

[elvas]

Try it with strong primers (CX2000, 616, 688) and you will get 300-400f/s more velocity with the Lyman sabot slug. I use it exclusively in the 12ga for every load from 32grams and up.

[Cap'n Morgan]

I plan on testing some roll crimped slugs to see what difference, if any, the depth/length of the crimp has on the velocity - which, of course, is related to the pressure. The loads & shells (Remington) will be identical , but the length of the shell will be 2.35" and 2.75", respectively.

Just finished the roll crimp test. Since it was a very basic test, with only four rounds of each length being tested, you probably shouldn't take it for more than it is, but here goes: The short shells gave an average speed of 1125 fps, where the longer shells clocked at 1150 fps (with less variation)

The test seems to indicate that the longer crimp does increase pressure a little and also give a more uniform ignition. The powder used was a fast burning Vectan AS behind a 460 grains sleeve-slug. I will probably repeat the test with one of the slower powders to see if the difference will be more destinct.


http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag248/driftwood4/1c93b35c-16b6-4fed-9c46-308d3368d973_zpsofk4ziae.jpg

http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag248/driftwood4/c30ff26e-b1eb-495b-bd84-99b41f8883f9_zpsu5ginzf5.jpg

[longbow]

It will be interesting to see if there is any significant difference with slow powder. My gut feel is that the fast powder should (should have) produced higher pressures with the longer crimp. My basis for that is the short hull info I have which seems to indicate that faster powders are more sensitive to changes than slower powders.

I guess when you look at how much force it takes to open a crimp, it is a small amount compared to the force of pushing that slug out the barrel so it shouldn't raise pressure that much, just giving the powder a little more resistance at ignition.

Mind you, one of my manuals has examples of recipe/component changes that do not affect velocity much at all but pressure varied dramatically, so much higher pressure produced almost no change in velocity. The change must have created a brief pressure spike but not long enough to increase velocity.

Longbow

[X-man]

Interesting stuff guys. I hope to do some load development this summer with a variety of cast slugs. Your experiences certainly give me food for thought. :)

[MOA]

I had to hunt with slugs here in Ohio. Until we got rifle a couple years ago we were always looking
for the ultimate slug & slug gun. I spent a lot of money and time on slugs. Foster/ Fosters with the
Rifled grooves, Lyman Slug with both rolled and folded crimp. Even tried 12g balls. The best slugs
I loaded were Lymans loaded in Remington Brass cases with a plastic disc punched out of milk jugs
over the slug before crimping. Loaded on rifle press with RCBS dies. I shot smooth bore Brn A5
with Redding Reciever sight and off bench I could do 21/2"-5shot groups at 60yds. I know some
of the rifled guns will do better with sabots, but I didn't feel that was to shabby for smooth bore.
We shoot slugs here all year at shoots, which were mostly shot at 100', I won my share and got in
a lot of practice for deer season.

Gosh, drm I sure wish you would put together some components of that load and take a picture of it and them enter it in the castpics contest for this month so we all see what you are using, maybe include in the image a completed round along with the components it was assembled with. :-)

[longbow]

Drm50:

What were group sizes for that load at 100 yards? If under 6" I'd be very interested in details too.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Tested the difference between deep/shallow crimp with a heavy slug (1-1/4 ounce) over 34 grains of Blue Dot. At 1450 fps this is a "warm" load probably above 10.000 psi. As with the fast powder test the deep crimp resulted in slightly faster speed and less variation, but not much and percent-vise less than with the fast powder.

I managed to dig one of the slugs out of the berm (the front slug in the picture) and it shows clear signs of having expanded during launch as the flattened ribs indicate - also, the polystyrene wad showed signs of being heavily compressed.

I then tested the same slug at 1150 fps by shooting them into a berm of fine sand to see if expansion was still a problem - at the same time I tried two different types of wads: High Density Polyethylene and Polystyrene. (all loads had a x12x seal under the slug and nothing else) The result can be seen in the rear row in the picture. Both types of wad held up pretty well with the HDPE (left side) being a little more forgiving.

http://i.imgur.com/RfalgVw.jpg

In this picture the difference in pushing the slug 300 fps faster can clearly be seen on the nearest slug.

When looking closely at the slugs it turned out that the "pattern" of the wads had been slightly imprinted in the base of the lead slugs - this could actually be a good thing if the slugs were to be shot from a rifled barrel as the imprint actually locks the slug & wad together.

http://i.imgur.com/JirV0RU.jpg

I have an idea for a different slug based on Uncle Dino's idea of fastening the wad to the slug by using a slug with a spigot instead of a cavity as in my Brenneke clone, but it'll have to wait till later.

[longbow]

As always Cap'n Morgan, great stuff!

I do like those slugs. Is that the same wad you used for accuracy testing a while ago? I don't recall the "cavities".

As for distortion. I had some Gualandi DGS slugs given to me (I have not seen them available in Canada and certainly not where I live) which I loaded up to a BPI recipe. Accuracy was okay though one keyholed at 50 yards but recovered slugs showed significant wad and slug distortion much like you experienced with the wad imprinting the slug. The Gualandi slugs are hard lead alloy and possibly heat treated , but hard anyway.

Blue Dot is pretty slow powder but I wonder if even slower would reduce wad damage?

[Cap'n Morgan]

Longbow.

The "cavities" has been there all the time. The first design was too weak so I added more support. The reason the wads are not solid is that the plastic shrinks too much which prolongs the solidifying process as the plastic loses contact with the mold. It is possible to add a small amount of "foaming" material to the plastic which will counter the shrinkage, and I may try that if the need for stronger wads comes up.

As for slower powder I'm a bit reluctant... last time I tried Steel in a slug load I ended up with a sack in the barrel.

[longbow]

I understand the reasoning for the cavities, I just didn't recall seeing them before.

When I bought some BPI AQ slugs to test many years ago they came with what appeared to be an injection moulded long plastic wad with helical ribs (quite deep) and a hole up the middle. I am guessing the hole accomplished the same thing as your cavities.

Recovered slugs showed that the deep helical ribs in the plastic were almost completely flattened off and the wads got shorter and fatter. That was with a recommended load using Unique IIRC. I may still have the recovered slug(s) downstairs somewhere. I'll look.

That wad does take a lot of abuse! No doubt about it. I still think it is the weak link in the home tinkerer's supplies. It is hard to find anything that will take 10,000 PSI and come out smiling. Everything distorts which is okay if the distortion is consistent and controlled or the distorted bit isn't attached to the slug.

I wonder if a felt or cork wad between gas seal and your slug would add just enough cushion effect to protect the attached wad?

Slightly different situation but when I tested my finned slugs I found the 6 fins sliced, diced and shredded nitro card wads and hard card wads. I tried a few things but in the end the solution was to put a couple of polyethylene disks under the slug to protect the wads below. I wonder if the reverse might work for you by spreading load on the wad.

Regardless, you've done a terrific job and beat us all in the slug accuracy game.

[uncle dino]

I have found that a flex seal or brush wad improves accuracy. It also helps with base distortion. A square even crimp is critical, with some compression. .I recover slugs where the base is square and undamaged. These were fired @1250 fps199429

Capn, from the looks of those base wads they out to be pretty easy to rivet those on with a short tail out the back of the slug.. Nice bases, fine job on those. D

[Blood Trail]

Cap'n, i was going to pass on a data for 470 ms and 820 bars, deadly on wild hogs. Quite a few folks here are crazy about using 800X, unfortunately it costs 69 euro for a 1 pound. Here we are lucky we have available pressure barrels to test loads for speed and pressure. Pistol powders are quite good for reloading shot and slugs as well. Nobel Sport powders available? Vectan SP8? One guy here tested a load for 500ms /1640 ft sec with gualandi 28 grams slug with acceptable pressure!

800X is one of my favorite powders. I'm getting around 1600-1650 with slugsrus sabots and 800X. And it's only $20/lb. [emoji5]


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[Cap'n Morgan]

I wonder if a felt or cork wad between gas seal and your slug would add just enough cushion effect to protect the attached wad?

I would think so. Normally I have always added a 1/2" felt wad between the seal and the slug. I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible which is why I skipped the felt wad. The slugs still grouped well, under 4" at 55 yards, but since I was using 2-3/4" plastic shells, trimmed to about 2.44, the slugs will actually be in a short free-flight before entering the bore.

[longbow]

4" at 55 yards is good accuracy in my book!

[KrakenFan69]

Been working on a Lyman 525gn Sabot in Rio hull with a Claybuster CB-1114-12 wad with various powders all roll crimped. I like the Rio clears for Slugs. Ordering more components soon to have more options. Trying Longshot, Blue Dot, Hodgdon Clays and WSF. Will report back on accuracy.


Kraken Fan #69

[Cap'n Morgan]

Been working on a Lyman 525gn Sabot in Rio hull with a Claybuster CB-1114-12 wad with various powders all roll crimped. I like the Rio clears for Slugs. Ordering more components soon to have more options. Trying Longshot, Blue Dot, Hodgdon Clays and WSF. Will report back on accuracy.

Kraken, the more, the merrier! Slugs are fascinating...

Clear hulls for slugs make sense, especially for safety reasons, that's why I only use roll crimp; With my sloppy way of handling things, sooner or later a slug load will end up in a pocket in a hunting jacket together with a bunch of normal shotshells. Hopefully I will then notice my mistake...