Problem with citric acid

[poppy42]

Hello all. I've been a member here for a short period of time but this is my first post as I've been too busy reading gathering information from all those that are much more knowledgeable than I. Had an interesting situation happen tonight. I tried out citric acid to clean cases for the first time. I found some in my local grocery store. Unfortunately I guess I didn't read the ingredients closely enough because when I mixed some up and put my cases in it the stuff cleaned the cases real well but it seems that this citric acid has some kind of gelatin in it. upon inspecting my 9 mm cases that I had just gotten through resizing and the priming, 500 of them to be exact, I found out that this gelatin, that I didn't realize was in the citric acid, had congealed in the primer pockets and inside the cases. So for the past hour I've been boiling brass to try and get the gelatin to loosen up and dissolved. Hopefully I didn't ruin 500 cases. So If there are any other stupid newbies, such as myself, that wants to try citric acid for cleaning cases please read the ingredients and make sure that there's no gelatin in the citric acid that you bye! I'll let you know how I make out tomorrow

[NyFirefighter357]

Citric acid can be found on eBay or a verity of other web sources. I use Lemi-Shine original. Ordered it through Wal-mart online. With that said, how are you cleaning your cases? Tumble or soaking? Either way any mild acid will work, a little for tumbling softens hard water and the media and soap do the rest. A lot as a cleanser/polish for soaking. Vinegar or lemon juice would work as well as an acid based toilet cleaner. I personally think wet tumbling is the way to go. I have a F.A.R.T and use SS pins or SS nail clippings (chips). You can build a tumbler with an old wiper motor and 2 1/2 gal. pail.

[poppy42]

Citric acid can be found on eBay or a verity of other web sources. I use Lemi-Shine original. Ordered it through Wal-mart online. With that said, how are you cleaning your cases? Tumble or soaking? Either way any mild acid will work, a little for tumbling softens hard water and the media and soap do the rest. A lot as a cleanser/polish for soaking. Vinegar or lemon juice would work as well as an acid based toilet cleaner. I personally think wet tumbling is the way to go. I have a F.A.R.T and use SS pins or SS nail clippings (chips). You can build a tumbler with an old wiper motor and 2 1/2 gal. pail.

I normally tumble on my brasses I have a Tumbler. I've heard some good things about citric acid and I figure if I could rinse them first and then tumble my brass it would save on my media. either corn cob or Walnut husks that I normally use. I tried the lemon juice and vinegar and it worked OK but I found what I thought was just citric acid in a grocery store. Like I said in my original post I didn't read the ingredients so well and evidently it has some gelatin in it which congealed in the primer pockets and inside the cases. My concern now is getting these goo out of the 500 cases I just sized, deprimed and cleaned. I must say they are nice and clean except for the GOP inside the primer pockets. Hopefully after the case is dry and I tumble them overnight they'll still be usable

[David2011]

Lemi-Shine is not citric acid. There might be some citric acid in it but the ingredients are listed as "made from fruit acids and sodium bicarbonate" on the box. The MSDS lists the ingredients as proprietary. Lemi-Shine is an excellent additive to citric acid. Citric acid can be purchased at Wal-Mart in the canning section and it is pure citric acid. Citric acid passivates brass to retard corrosion. While lemon juice and toilet cleaners will brighten brass I can find no reference for passivating brass with them. Treating brass with the wrong products will cause it to embrittle and crack.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ball-Citric-Acid-Additive/20469602#about-item

Here it is at a good price: http://www.bulkapothecary.com/raw-ingredients/other-ingredients-and-chemicals/citric-acid/?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=citric%20acid&utm_term=citric%20acid&utm_content=citric%20acid

Poppy, it sounds like you got a citric acid based canning product or possibly something for making homemade gummy bears. Best wishes recovering from this! Please let us know. Welcome to Cast Boolits!

David

[Iowa Fox]

A soak in hot water with lemi shine gets cases as clean and shiny as I want or need them.

[poppy42]

Someplace along the line the whole point of my post is being missed I'm no longer concerned about cleaning my cases and making them shiny I'm concerned with how do I get the Jell-O out of them

[iomskp]

In this part of the world you can get citric acid from bulk food suppliers and also from the places that sell ingredients for making your own beer and wine.

Regards Trevor

[JBinMN]

I think I would soak them in some sort of a solvent. Think Mineral spirits/paint thinner/etc.. Even gasoline in a pinch.
Maybe agitate with a whisk or a stick to shake them up a bit while soaking. Could be the ticket for dissolving that stuff & not harm the cases a bit, IMO.

Worth a try anyway. I would just try a couple & see how it works. Just swish the primer ends in a small amount of some solvent & see if the stuff gets removed... Maybe take an air nozzle & blow them out afterwards to help get the stuff out & dry them. If ya have one & a compressor.

While I was waiting for the stuff to dissolve, I would throw the citrus stuff ya used away, if ya have not already.
;)

I use Mrs Wages citric acid powder. Works great!

G'Luck!
:)

[runfiverun]

lemi-shine is like 96% citric acid.

gelatin can be made a couple of different way's.
but it's most likely an animal product [a collagen of sorts]
boiling it should break it down and allow it to float on top of the water, like boiling meat lets that fat layer come to the top after you cool down the broth.

[244]

How do your cases look after boiling? Did the gel get dissolved? If it is gelatin, I'm sure it would break down. I'd be tempted to rinse them in hot soapy water immediately after boiling to remove any gel that remains.

If they look good, a final pass when dry with a decapping pin either in a progressive or single stage would surely clear any minor remnants.

Good luck!

[dg31872]

Does food grade citric acid come in different strengths?

[toallmy]

Poppy 42 what product did you use , just for a head's up to others . I use the ball brand from Wal-Mart , it may fix your problem . Did I read correctly , that you have already sized and primed the brass ?

[Sasquatch-1]

If several very hot water baths do not work try some acetone. If you have an old forgotten crock pot that you can commandeer, try cooking in water for a couple hours.
They are deprimed?


Someplace along the line the whole point of my post is being missed I'm no longer concerned about cleaning my cases and making them shiny I'm concerned with how do I get the Jell-O out of them

[randyrat]

You'll remember this every time you eat Jello, you'll hate Jello from now on.

I like to soak my brass in hot water, dawn dish soap and Citric acid for about 15 minutes, Shaken then rinsed in hot water..I lay all those out on old towels to dry for at least a week. From the drying area the brass goes in the tumbler for 10-15 minutes and I have real clean brass ready to load. Nope, I don't measure, but I use about 1/8 cup of Citric acid and a 1/2 teaspoon of Dawn to a gallon of water.

Poppy42...I would think hot water would dissolve gelatin

[GhostHawk]

I think a fairly large sealable container is going to be required.

Take brass that has been boiled, is still too hot to touch. Try 100 for the first batch.

Throw it in the jar, half fill the jar with HOT water, add a few drops of dawn. Shake like a mamba. And shake, and drain, and rinse, and shake again.

From there you are probably going to have to find a small brush and do each primer pocket by hand. And a bigger brush that just fits inside the brass.

OR

Throw the works and start over. Learn your lesson, and hopefully in a few years you can laugh about it.

[opos]

Try a light mix of baking soda in hot water...soda neutralizes acid...then rinse the heck out of them and let them dry completely..should work...I use citric acid powder all the time and have never had the issue you speak about...I put them in the soup..rinse...neutrallize with a dip in soda disolved in water and spread them on a towel in the sun to dry...don't use the oven as i might get it too hot and ruin the brass...always works...then a quick polish in the walnut media and tumbler if I want it sexy and load it.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Does food grade citric acid come in different strengths?
I use 100% pure food grade citric acid powder.
I'm not sure what is available in other places as to different strengths?
I use 3 tblsp per one gallon of hot (near boiling) water...I use a dedicated crockpot for brass cleaning

The cheapest source that was suggested to me, a few years ago, is dudadiesel, they sell it for a use with making bio-Diesel fuel.
I bought 5 lb, pretty sure that's a lifetime supply.

[William Yanda]

Please let me quibble. Your problem is not with citric acid. Your problem is that you, Y. O. U., selected a product containing gelatin! Probably trying to cheap out. I suspect nothing that hot water and some agitation would not cure.

[Land Owner]

William, let's get him a solution - if there is one - and several have been suggested. He's a newb. He admits it. He came here for experienced answers. Let's not crush him for asking.

Gelatin should disolve simply in hot water. If it doesn't, it's not gelatin. Go back to the packaging. What are its ingredients? Does the packaging suggests the intent of the product?

[tommag]

If it's gelatin, agitation in boiling or near boiling water should dissolve it just fine. Follow up with a rinse in hot water and I think you would be good to go.

[ghh3rd]

Just a thought ... if you have a tumbler, perhaps just tumble them and see what happens. You will probably need to replace your media afterwards, but perhaps your media already needs replacing?

[popper]

I'm not sure it really is gelatin - but it does look like it. I use a US cleaner with lemishine and laundry detergent - wife kept swiping my dawn so I swipe her liquid Whisk. I've noticed some slime when dumping cases from the basket. At first I thought it was due to using some dacron filler but I changed out the water and it still occurs. I just started using Glisten - 100% Lauryl - the actual detergent used in Dawn and other soaps. The other stuff adds coloring/bluing, thickener, stuff that is 'good for the hands'. My suspicion is those other ingredients and whatever is in the case residue/coating are actually making the slime. Anyway, pistol cases and 223(BO converted - even LC) cases come out squeaky/shiny clean, PP also. 308W LC never does - different brass type I suppose.

To answer the OP question, slime or not, all my reloads go bang. Unless your slime is crusty hard the primer should push through it. Might try one round with the junk to see if it kills the primer.

I have never found a technical document that proves citric acid will passivate brass. If you have one, post it please.

[Mohavedog]

I think the solution is very simple. You're making Jello so what do you do? You dissolve the gelatin mix in boiling water and refrigerate to solidify. So reverse the process and bring the gelatin back to a boil to melt it. Should work for your brass, right?

[Eddie17]

500 cases of 9mm, in my opinion, scrap and do over.
Plenty of 9mm flying around.

[poppy42]

Well thanks for all the responses. Yes I know it's my own fault. I boiled the cases last night for a while then dried in the oven at 150 for a about an hour. Much to my surprise there was still some goo in a small percentage of the primer pockets. There soaking in hot soapy waters. So much for saving time. I guess I should explain why I decided to try this. I trim 9x18 cases to 9x 18 for my Makarov & P64. I always wash in dish soap after trimming to clean any brass shavings and oil left over from the trimming process. Then I tumble in corn cob. I figured if I could clean some tarnish off also it would cut down on tumble time and prolong the corn cob. Boy was I wrong about time saving. By the way the name of this stuff is "Ball real fruit classic ". It did clean real. All I can say is kids don't try this at home. I'll chalk this up along with all the other dumb stuff I've done in my 60+ years. If you can't laugh at your self you shouldn't laugh at anyone. Anyway thanks for all the responses. I really appreciate it. Heck of a way to introduce yourself though!:-(

[David2011]

I think I would soak them in some sort of a solvent. Think Mineral spirits/paint thinner/etc.. Even gasoline in a pinch.
Maybe agitate with a whisk or a stick to shake them up a bit while soaking. Could be the ticket for dissolving that stuff & not harm the cases a bit, IMO.

Worth a try anyway. I would just try a couple & see how it works. Just swish the primer ends in a small amount of some solvent & see if the stuff gets removed... Maybe take an air nozzle & blow them out afterwards to help get the stuff out & dry them. If ya have one & a compressor.

While I was waiting for the stuff to dissolve, I would throw the citrus stuff ya used away, if ya have not already.
;)

I use Mrs Wages citric acid powder. Works great!

G'Luck!
:)

JB, I would have to say that suggesting a petroleum based solvent is not the correct solution for a water based product. Other than the fire danger with gasoline, petroleum solvents are generally effective on petroleum products and not water based products. However, your advice to toss the remaining product is excellent advice. Mrs. Wages is a good product for our application.


To answer the OP question, slime or not, all my reloads go bang. Unless your slime is crusty hard the primer should push through it. Might try one round with the junk to see if it kills the primer.

I have never found a technical document that proves citric acid will passivate brass. If you have one, post it please.

Several years ago I had a few light shots in a batch of .40 S&W. The boolits all cleared the barrel but they felt like squibs. I finally discovered that "June Bug" beetles were crawling into cases in the case feeder and dying in the empty cartridges. The reloading bench was sitting in a large workshop where insects could get in when I had the doors open. They were very hard to see in the press so I was loading on top of them. I would not recommend relying on the primer pushing through anything!

References to using citric acid as a passivating solution are easy to find on the Internet. Technical articles are harder to find.
The article I found will put most to sleep I'll post a link.
PASSIVATION AND ETCHING BEHAVIORS OF COPPER SURFACE IN COPPER CMP SLURRIES
http://www.electrochem.org/dl/ma/201/pdfs/0394.pdf




lemi-shine is like 96% citric acid.


R5R, I usually accept anything you post without question. I've spent hours on the Internet trying to find out what's in Lemi-Shine. The only chemical analysis I found, and it was an extensive test, was not able to prove that even though the chemist expected to find lots of citric acid. I would love to see hard data proving the 96% figure.
http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2012/05/18/whats-in-lemi-shine/

[lefty o]

latest bottle of lemishine i bought says on it , ingredients: natural citric extracts and citrus oils .

[jonp]

I bought some bulk online for much less than in WalMart. I have bought some in WalMart in the canning section. I didn't know you could get it with gelatin?

Go on Ebay or Amazon and look it up. ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************

Just make sure to get food grade. BTW 5lbs is alot of Citric Acid but if your significant other can's then it will get used. I've used Citric Acid/salt/Dawn in boiling water to clean brass and it does do a good job.

[Geezer in NH]

ball realfruit classic pectin I will bet you used this no wonder it's gooey that make jam and jelly set.

[jonp]

"I have never found a technical document that proves citric acid will passivate brass. If you have one, post it please. "
My opinion is if it is left in too long it will cause the copper/brass to come out which is shown by the pinkish color that it will get. The brass gets harder and doesn't last as long. Not dangerous, though. At least, I never really noticed much difference in it and the pink is easy to remove if it bothers you.

500 cases of 9mm, in my opinion, scrap and do over.
Quiter :Fire: hehe

[jonp]

Well thanks for all the responses. Yes I know it's my own fault. I boiled the cases last night for a while then dried in the oven at 150 for a about an hour. Much to my surprise there was still some goo in a small percentage of the primer pockets. There soaking in hot soapy waters. So much for saving time. I guess I should explain why I decided to try this. I trim 9x18 cases to 9x 18 for my Makarov & P64. I always wash in dish soap after trimming to clean any brass shavings and oil left over from the trimming process. Then I tumble in corn cob. I figured if I could clean some tarnish off also it would cut down on tumble time and prolong the corn cob. Boy was I wrong about time saving. By the way the name of this stuff is "Ball real fruit classic ". It did clean real. All I can say is kids don't try this at home. I'll chalk this up along with all the other dumb stuff I've done in my 60+ years. If you can't laugh at your self you shouldn't laugh at anyone. Anyway thanks for all the responses. I really appreciate it. Heck of a way to introduce yourself though!:-(

I will do the same with really dirty range brass. Citric Acid bath then tumble. Saved tons of brass that you would have sworn would not be good. BTW Free Shipping At Brownells if you want a new tumbler

[farmerjim]

jonp "500 cases of 9mm, in my opinion, scrap and do over."

I agree with jonp. There are several vendors on here that are selling 9mm for the price of scrap plus shipping.
It is not worth the time to clean it if it won't clean with hot water. Sell it for scrap.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP...

I have never found a technical document that proves citric acid will passivate brass. If you have one, post it please.
I haven't looked for one, and maybe the following isn't enough for you, but it is enough for me.

when I read the first 40 posts of this thread,
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?83572-Citric-acid-brass-cleaner
sagacious says citric acid will passivate brass, and when that is put in context with the other info of those 40 posts, I believe it. Add to that my experience using it for several years, Brass that's first been degreased, then cleaned in a hot citric acid bath, then rinsed/dried and no other processing, results in brass cases that are not shiney, but have a dull multi-tone finish, that hasn't tarnished, even with a few years of storage.

But, I have a couple questions, assuming my belief is correct, that it really is passivated. Is the passivation just the surface finish? or does it go deeper? Because when I tumble/polish cases that had the hot citric acid bath, and the brass comes out shiney, I wonder if it is still passivated?

[pjames32]

Whether Lemi Shine is 90%+ citric acid or not it works for me. I think it is!
Too much Lemi Shine too long makes for pink brass. Use less for less time. I use 1/2 tsp peer gallon for no longer than an hour with a capful of Armor All wash n wax.
For the OP..................I too have done many stupid things in my nearly 70 years and I can augh now at many of them. I'd boil them and pitch if they don't come clean. Not like there is a shortage on 9mm brass.

[gpidaho]

poppy; If you're tired of all this, just scrap it and if you're short on 9mm I'd be happy to send you a sfrb USPS full for the price of postage. PM me if. Gp

[Hick]

Your post said "sized and primed" If that's really the case you may have had a chemical reaction between the acid, the coating on the primers, or even the priming compound itself and the gelatin may be the product of the chemical reaction. Without the exact chemical formula for each it would be hard to predict what that is, but I'm guessing it will not be good for the primers.

[JBinMN]

JB, I would have to say that suggesting a petroleum based solvent is not the correct solution for a water based product. Other than the fire danger with gasoline, petroleum solvents are generally effective on petroleum products and not water based products. However, your advice to toss the remaining product is excellent advice. Mrs. Wages is a good product for our application.



I reckon you are very correct about the difference between the "water" base & "petroleum" base stuff.
:)

I. personally, have had more trouble with removing "water" based stuff than "petroleum" based stuff. A good example is paint. Latex(water) vs. Enamel(petroleum) is one to think on. I can get a latex cleaned up pretty fast with a paint thinner or Min. Spirits, rather than water first, spin a bit & then use hot soapy water to finish...

Ya can try that with enamel, using the reverse, but it will not likely work the way ya want, nor in a fast manner..
That is why I suggested a "solvent" of some sort, rather than a water based cleaning method.
:)

It is all good though, IMO. It isn't my issue & I was trying to help.

Seems it all comes back to "do what you are comfortable with doing".
:)

Your post showing concern & caution is duly noted by me (& hopefully others), and Thanks! for taking the time to offer it.
:)

[David2011]

The pink color is where the zinc has been lost and copper remains. In a gallon of water I use about 2 Tbs citric acid and a dash of Lemi-Shine 160 degrees. Since it works almost instantly the brass is removed after 2-3 minutes. Never get pink spots except where there was already corrosion.

JBinMN, thanks. I'm always afraid of stepping on toes.

[WRideout]

My guess is that it is some type of carbohydrate. You could try pectic enzyme or amylase enzyme soak. The wine and beer makers use those to break down the starches and pectins in fruit and grain.

Wayne

[lightman]

Poppy, don't give up on the citric acid. It works great, you just accidentally got the wrong stuff. If hot water fails to get your cases clean I would try some mineral spirits. Walmart has in in quart cans pretty cheap. I like your attitude, admitting your goof and laughing about it.

Everyone, I agree that 9mm's are cheap and plentiful but Poppy has already trimmed these guys. I would not throw that much work away without giving it a heck of a thy!

[poppy42]

Hello all,
First To those of you that offered helping suggestions I truly want to thank you. That goes double to those that offered replacement cases! The good news is that , after two days of a couple boilings, quite a few rinsing's, and finally individual cleaning with a lot of qtips, No More Jello in my cases! And yes it was gelatin! As you might have figured out I am not one to give up on a problem. I've always believed that when you screw up and make a mistake you darn sure need to take the time and effort to correct that mistake. It only helps to remind you what not to doin the future. I certainly could have given up, tossed them out and started over. That would not have taught me or anyone else a thing except how to quit when it gets tough. This situation was totally my fault. And it list high up on stupid bone head thing not to do. Oh well. You can bet I won't make the same mistake. On a side note if anyone wants to no how to turn your brass bullet case into jello molds I can certainly give you detailed instructions!:bigsmyl2:
Thanks again,
Poppy42

[popper]

Is the passivation just the surface finish Yes. It is a molecular layer to prevent further corrosion. Best comments I can find it's an etchant that removes corrosion.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Is the passivation just the surface finish Yes. It is a molecular layer to prevent further corrosion. Best comments I can find it's an etchant that removes corrosion.
Thanks for the great answer.

[RogerDat]

I came across multiple references to use detergent and not soap. This was typical.
"mix one tablespoon of liquid hand dish washing detergent, one half cup distilled white vinegar and two cups of warm water"

The stuff you want in grocery store will come in a shaker like seasoning salt or garlic salt. You know the bottles with a shaker lid that one side flips open to pour and one side flips open with holes to shake out.

I once forgot some brass in citric acid, long enough it turned "red" of copper. Durn wife had me doing chores until my brain plumb forgot that plastic coffee can of brass, I also once (I know of) forgot to rinse brass. So I just went out and shot it all right up so I could start over :-)

I soak with a small amount of citric acid to clean before tumble in corncob or walnut shells. Seems to do a good job and I have read that it helps prevent tarnishing. Want to try the wet tumble with SS pins for the inside the case and primer pocket cleaning. Also it seems that folks find really old cases in the shed and want me to have them, they tend to take a long time to polish back to sort of shine.

[toallmy]

The hard learned lessons tend to be remembered the most , good follow through and I'm glad it worked out for you . Your mistake may help another not make it .

[1_Ogre]

Personally here is what I do: Frankford Arsnel (yea I know) wet tumbler. Fill 2/3 with brass, fill to the neck with hot water, 1/2 tsp Lemi-Shine and "2-3" DROPS of Dawn. Close tumbler and run for 3hr. Brass is shiney shiney shiney when done and no detriment, pink spots, or goop

[ghh3rd]

I've used citric acid with good results. I was just thinking that since it passivates, maybe I'll passivate the 200 pieces of Star .357 that just came in the mail :-).

[RogerDat]

I've used citric acid with good results. I was just thinking that since it passivates, maybe I'll passivate the 200 pieces of Star .357 that just came in the mail :-). I understand citric acid reacts badly with .357 mag brass, especially Star. You better send that suspect brass to me for testing (at range) and assessment (at reloading press). Purely as a favor no need to pay me or anything. Just looking out for you.

[ghh3rd]

RogerDat, Roger...