Selecting a Church

[dverna]

Wayne sent me this. I think he makes some great points and I wonder if it would be useful as a sticky. Others could contribute as well. I hear of many who move from church to church.

Something we have done a lot of since moving around since marriage. I have developed a mutiple step method to evaluate a Church.

1) go to their website and look at their statement of faith. If there is anything in it you cannot agree to, try another. By joining a Church I sign on to their statement of faith. I cannot be a member of a Holiness Church because I do not believe I can lose my salvation. I cannot be a member of a Southern Baptist Church any more because of their non-bliblical stand on the use of alcohol. They have chosen to proscribe rather than teach.

2) Attend a service. Ask yourself several questions:
A. Am I welcomed or ignored?
B. Are these people worshipping God, their pastor, or themselves?
C. Is the pastor preaching from the Bible or from yesterday's newspaper?

3). If the Church passes the above tests and you think you want to join I have one final test - Where does the money go?
I will ask the pastor if it is not published. I want a Church that passes on approximately 25% of the income to other ministeries, local or worldwide. If 100% of the money stays home they have a major self-focusing problem.

Programs matter if you need or are interested. My wife and I always look for an active music program, we have been involved in Church music all of our married lives and separately before we were married. Youth programs are important but, since our children are grown, less so. I will also look at the age range and how many children are in the nursery and/or in Sunday School? Is this an old Church dying on the vine or a young and vibrant one no matter how long it has been established?

At one time we were in the oldest Baptist Church in Concord, NH, because it had the most vibrant children and youth programs of any of the local churches.

Have fun. We recently (within the past three years) changed Churches because the one we had been in for 21 years changed their statement of faith. They went full Creationism, and LOML (Love of my life) is a geologist! No way we could sign on to that document. After a lifetime of being in various Baptist Churches we are now Presbyterian.

Wayne

[Hogtamer]

Well Don there is the old joke about the man rescued from a desert island where he had been stranded for years. One of the rescuers marveled at 3 buildings on a hill and asked the man about them. "The one on the left is my house. The one in the middle was my first church. The one on the right is my new church, just couldn't get along with the members in the first one!"

All churches consist of an imperfect fellowship of believers. Attend several, speak with the pastors, tell them you'd like to bend their ear sometime convenient. Always pray for direction and guidance. Be open to invitations of fellowship, looking not for what a church can give you but what you might give the church. The best lesson I ever got was a chalk circle drawn on the floor that I was asked to step into. Fix what's in the circle and it will be a good start in fixing whatever else might be wrong. Still a humbling exercise. Blessings in your search!

[GhostHawk]

One of the reasons that cause my split from my church way back when was that it was sending 40% to the head church. Some of which was being used to support anti gun legislation. Paster and I had a few words over it. He was not backing down. And he basically said I had 2 choices. Go along with it, or stop supporting my church. Did not help that he and I had disagreed on several other issues.

Not too long after that it came out that the same church had been supporting a charity which was supporting terrorists.

Whole thing just left a bitter taste on my tongue. One of these days I am going to have to get over that hurdle.

[Wayne Smith]

In our minds we need to create a separation between Christians and the institutional Church. At least since Constantine the Church, the institutional Church, has been constituted by both the invisible church (individual Christians, the Body of Christ) and those who have another reason for being in the Church. Billy Graham estimated that 50% of the Evangelical Church were not Christians. When those who are not Christians get in charge of the Church not good things happen.

I have no problem with reasoned and purposeful denominational differences. There are many who have been saved in a Charismatic Church who would never enter a Baptist Church and vice versa. It is how the local organization is run that needs to be evaluated.

In doing this remember that Jesus Christ told us that we would recognize one another "by your love" - not by your doctrine or the name on your Church - by your love. There will be a lot of people in Heaven that the Baptists won't recognize!

[Boaz]

I'm a fundamentalist and a Baptist , I'm sorry to hear that Wayne .

[Char-Gar]

have no problem with reasoned and purposeful denominational differences. There are many who have been saved in a Charismatic Church who would never enter a Baptist Church and vice versa. It is how the local organization is run that needs to be evaluated.

In doing this remember that Jesus Christ told us that we would recognize one another "by your love" - not by your doctrine or the name on your Church - by your love. There will be a lot of people in Heaven that the Baptists won't recognize!

I would like to put up a note of agreement. A very wise man once told me as I was just a week away from entering Seminary; "My younger brother, always remember that theology is not God. Theology is just man talking about God."

A review of the history of the church down through the ages, theological divisions have done more harm to the witness of the church than Satan ever could. In fact I think Satan delights in all the theological disputes over this and that point.

My theological tradition is very conservative Wesleyan. It is the glass through which I see Jesus. In so far as it helps me to see Jesus clearly, I polish the glass and celebrate my tradition. When my tradition clouds the image of Jesus and diminished my love, I quickly break that glass and throw it in the ash can.

The Church Growth people have studied why people join churches extensively over generations and theology is way down the list. People join churches because of the people primarily. A community where the new comer is welcomed, and made to feel cared about will trump all the theology in the world.

If a pastor does not have a pastoral heart, he or she should stay far away from the local church ministry. All the great doctrinal pure sermons in the world, won't substitute for a pastor who truly cares about his/her people and they know it. There is no higher calling that that of a pastor who walks with his/her people through all the trials and tribulations, representing the love and grace of God to people in the hardest times.

True, a pastor should preach and teach the faith, but more importantly he/she should live it out in the relationships in the church.

There are far to many people imprisoned by their theological doctrine to love like Christ. This hide bound doctrine did not come from Jesus, but from the generations that followed. Theology is not God, it is just men taking about God. The Christian faith is first, last and always about relationships. My relationship with God, my relationship with myself and my relationships with others. Religious doctrine only has value, in so far as it instigates, improves and assists those relationships. Standing apart from those relationships religious doctrine is as useless as a whistle on a plow.

[Wayne Smith]

Thank You, Char-Gar. You stated it much better than I did.

[Thundarstick]

If one doesn't believe in the creation then he's following Jesus the ignorant or liar! Not Jesus the son of the living God, who has all things revealed to him except the last day! I don't care where you go to church after that, it's just a social club at that point!

[Boaz]

I believe it's a good thing to visit other churches to see how others worship .

[Boaz]

There is not a rush to find a church , should be educational and enjoyable .

[jmort]

I just keep checking out local churches until I find one tbat works for me. The closer the church, the more likely I am to make it out the door.

[Boaz]

I have attended many different churches I enjoyed .

[Blackwater]

Don, Wayne and Char-Gar have given great advice and insight. NO church you ever go to will be perfect, for the simple reason that we humans aren't and probably CAN'T be perfect. So, ultimately, they're all flawed, and as flawed as the people in it. But all of them at least purport to worship the Lord, and that's the main thing.

FWIW, I've never had to bother with selecting a church. I've been a member of the church I was brought up in for 55 years now, except for a brief time when I moved my letter to another church after I got out of the navy, and didn't live locally. But when I moved back, it was good to go back to my "home church," even though I knew it was "flawed" in my eyes. Now, some 55 years after I walked forward and made my profession of faith, I see it's not nearly as flawed as I once imagined. When young, I thought everything had to be "perfect." Now seasoned, I understand that this will never be a real possibility, and just let the imperfections roll off like water off a duck's back.

Most Christians these days seem to have needs, perceived or real as they may sometimes be, to focus most of their time and attention and mental considerations on their ability to make a living, and do the normal and necessary routing maintenance, like preparing meals, mowing the grass, etc. This leaves little time to read and digest the Word. And when they get the opportunity, they're often tired both mentally and physically. This isn't fertile ground for truly gleaning the real and deep meanings of the scriptures. So .... most folks just wing their way through life, using their innate sensibilities as their guidelines, along with what they know and can remember of the scriptures. In turn, this means they sometimes err, often due to their simply being tired mentally and physically, and really needing some rest rather than another challenge.

In past times, folks worked longer hours, and did more physical labor, but they never worked at the harried pace nor under the pressures we do today, typically. This makes for fertile ground to err, and substitute our sentiments for actual Biblical understanding. They honestly mean well, at least mostly, but have just been shaped by the world around them. I consider this an "honest mistake," and a mere extension of our humanity, rather than a deadly "sin," such as pride, greed, etc. A loving God will provide them with reflection later, I believe, at least for those with real faith. And this contributes to an increasing humility as we age, and also a more satisfied outlook in spite of what may be going on around them.

I've had the benefit of a lot of years, now, to observe others and experience things myself. And I've tried to be a chronic and acute observer along the way. What I've seen has convinced me that in my early years, I was much too critical of others, and far too "weak" to have provided them some support and loving correction, as I believe Christ recommended to us toward one another.

So, I've concluded, from my own perspective and experience at least, that being too critical of our churches is pretty dysfunctional, but not being critical enough CAN also, however, lead us to frustration and a diminishing of our faith, which of course can't do us or anyone else any real good. As a kid, I knew members who habitually drank to excess, and even sometimes got violent at home. This offended and confused me. I didn't then recognize that alcoholics, as one example, are literally "different people" when they drink than they are when sober. There were a lot of things I didn't understand, know, or take into consideration back then. Now, after a lot more experience and insight into other people's lives and situations therein, I'm a LOT slower to "judge" others, and mostly, when I hear what I believe to be bad theology or un-Christian sentiments, I just chuckle, and try to gently inject into the discussion a more scriptural spirit and outlook, and attitude. Often, it never takes root until later, but .... that's just how we humans often work, so I never expect instant response to what I know to be more True. Looking back at my own life, I realize how slowly I learned, and how hard-headed I have been at many points along the way. I wanted what [B]I[B] wanted, and "thought" (figuratively at least) that God wanted what I wanted too. How wrong I was! That old saying "To err is human; to forgive divine" rings heavily in my ears now on a very regular basis. I wish I was still better at heeding that little truism, but at least I'm getting a lot better than I once was.

It's a very long road we walk in this life, in spite of the fact that our years are short here. This, I think, is prima facie evidence that we're supposed to learn by keeping our own souls clean, and not worrying inordinately about others' error and even sins. I'm SO much happier and more satisfied now for that! I've learned to take wisdom and insight wherever I find it, and no matter what denomination it comes from. I'm a Baptist, but I'll speak to you in the liquor store, and do NOT think we Baptists will be the only denomination in Heaven. Even as a little kid, I rejected that little tidbit of bad theology. I just innately recognized it as patting our own selves on the back when perhaps that was NOT warranted! And I've long been sorta' disinterested in theological bases for the denominations, and have learned to look to the PEOPLE involved, and the scriptures.

The church was once ALL Catholic, and few could read or write, and books cost what amounted to a fortune at that time. So it was really all that COULD be done at the time. The church's involvement in politics surely created many, many problems that a more "pure" church would not have had to contend with, but then, had they NOT been involved in politics, I think it's pretty clear that politics would likely have taken on a rather more heavy handed and haughty manner than they already did. Religion in political realms had at least some leavening effect, which to be realistic, was probably all it COULD have done at the time. I now look with wonder at how some of the old popes handled their duties. Some of the ones who are criticized most now, receive such sentiment because we have forgotten some of the things they had to contend with and take into consideration at that time.

So .... long story short, many things I've learned and seen and experienced have contrived to make me a lot more sedate in reference to "judging" others and much of theology. We truly "see through the glass darkly," and only further experience along our various roads of life can really instill some degree of wisdom and understanding within us. Scriptures are the best source for those seeking wisdom and understanding, of course, but "maturity" as a Christian really, I think, involved the same thing that maturity does to a piece of fruit. Fruit has to ripen, and I think, so do we. And that doesn't come overnight nor easily to most of us. It's acquired slowly and by degrees. But it DOES come, IF we'll but seek it. "Seek and ye shall find," the scriptures tell us, and that is VERY true. But it doesn't always come on OUR schedules. Wisdom reminds me of the fellow who prayed for patience, and ended his prayer with the words, " ... and I want it right now!" We can't NOT want wisdom early on, and we CAN have a LITTLE of it if our hearts are pure and we are really seeking it. But it largely is something that has to mature as we are prepared to receive it along our various ways. But it DOES come if we're diligent, and faithful to the search for it.

So your way of selecting a church surely has its great points. But never forget that there ARE no "pure" churches. And never lose sight of the fact that as you progress in your understanding and wisdom, you'll almost surely change your mind along the way about some things. Just keep an open mind. Our understanding is always limited, but Christ's is not. That pretty well guarantees us that we're going to see things as we WANT to UNLESS we're focused on the REAL prize, which is a good deal of human understanding. Only when we've transitioned to the next realm will we be ABLE to understand many things. This is one reason I think the greatest hallmark of a devout Christian is his or her humility. Yes, we DO have to make up our minds about some things and principles, but we must NEVER close our mind to learning more or delving deeper into what we don't yet understand, especially with regard to each other.

As has been quoted many times before here and elsewhere, "God is Love" is the great guiding principle of our Faith, and it's the one thing that ought to be at the forefront of all our thinking. Many Christians may well believe things that are not actually scriptural. That's their problem. Don't let it be yours.

And BTW, all the dissension over "creationism" is largely and primarily a dissension based on semantic misunderstanding, and other factual factors that we now believe. Personally, I don't know HOW God created all we now know, and don't really care all that much. I'm mainly just glad that He DID create it, and that He creaded it wo full of wonder and awe. I've simply quit sweating the "small stuff," and leave that to those who just like to argue more than they like to learn. We DO have to have ideas about such things, but I doubt we'll ever truly understand or be able to prove just HOW God created all we know. So ... I just shrug, or just try to play devil's advocate with the Darwinians. Darwin himself noted problems with his theory, and more have been discovered since, but ... for all I know, he may well have been at least partially right! So I mostly just yawn when folks get into spirited or emotional arguments over it. As Shakespeare said, it's mostly "much ado about nothing," because none of it affects the question of whether we're saved or not. What's IMPORTANT is what affects our salvation, and our understanding of our Savior, and HIS will, rather than our own conclusions. He HAS given us much to think about, but having seen science vascillate and even reverse itself over many years, I always take the things they say with a grain of salt, for by far the most part of it. Some discussions of these things CAN be very interesting, but it's sad how few seem to be so committed to ANY theory rather than constantly seeking more and greater and deeper understanding of what God REALLY did, and why He did it however He did it all.

Whenever I see your posts now, I smile. It's always SO good to see another good one come to Faith and belief! It inspires me more than you know, but I suspect that you'll soon understand just how inspiring it is to already believing Christians. It's just pure joy, with no "bad aftertaste!" As such, it's a rare pleasure here in this realm, and one we have to relish when we find it. thanks so much for sharing your story and your thoughts as you've been through the process. It really matters, and it matters more than you think. Thanks.

[Thundarstick]

It's it, " much to do about nothing"? Is John 1:1-3 a lie? Hebrews 1:2 is a lie when it's stated the Son created all? Colossians 1:17 another fairy-tale? Revelations 4:11 "for you created ALL THINGS" just so much poopoo?

How can someone believe Christ is our saviour, yet not believe he created all?

In Exodus 20:11 Moses claims all was created in 6 days and the Lord rested the 7th. Was Moses a lier? Or was he just ignorantly spreading more campfire tails? Yet in John 5:45-47 Jesus himself said if we don't believe Moses how will we believe his words?


This and many more examples are why it's important! If the creation account is a lie, then the whole bible is a lie, Jesus himself is a lier and there is no salvation in him! Brothers, dont fool yourselves into thinking this very reasoning concerning the creation account in the bible isn't the reason so many will not believe in any of the bible! I know this reasoning has kept some of my own loved ones from salvation!

If one needs proof of the creation, then wouldn't one logically need proof for ones claim to salvation? Or is that just fairy-tale as well?

I intend to boldly proclaim the truth! If the creation account is destroyed (a lie) then the WHOLE BIBLE is a lie lie lie!

[w5pv]

No organized religion here,I take my self into the woods and some other quiet place for my soul searching.

[Preacher Jim]

The right Church? The argument of the centuries.
The right church is a church that follows the word of God, does not modernize the word to be socially acceptable. Does not change it to fit society but uses the truth of the word to change society. Believes Jesus is the way, the truth, and only way to salvation and eternal life.
For by grace (God's gift) are you saved (brought in to God's family) through faith (accepting Jesus as the only son of God) who lived a sinless life, died on the cross and rose again to set at the right hand of God. And you achieve this by confessing your sins, asking Jesus to be your savior, believe without reservation he is your savior. The Holy Spirit comes into you to be your seal of salvation a gift from God. You don't ask for the Holy Spirit God sends him upon your accepting Jesus to help you live a changed life. You grow in Christ to spiritual maturity and that is a lifelong journey.
Find the church that stands by and on that and teaches that.

[Boaz]

The right Church? The argument of the centuries.
The right church is a church that follows the word of God, does not modernize the word to be socially acceptable. Does not change it to fit society but uses the truth of the word to change society. Believes Jesus is the way, the truth, and only way to salvation and eternal life.
For by grace (God's gift) are you saved (brought in to God's family) through faith (accepting Jesus as the only son of God) who lived a sinless life, died on the cross and rose again to set at the right hand of God. And you achieve this by confessing your sins, asking Jesus to be your savior, believe without reservation he is your savior. The Holy Spirit comes into you to be your seal of salvation a gift from God. You don't ask for the Holy Spirit God sends him upon your accepting Jesus to help you live a changed life. You grow in Christ to spiritual maturity and that is a lifelong journey.
Find the church that stands by and on that and teaches that.

AMEN !

Thank you Jim .

[GhostHawk]

^ Amen

Well said

[Thundarstick]

Well said indeed!

[Hickory]

It may take years to find the right church even then it won't be perfect.
The most important thing is to educate yourself in the heart of Christ. The best way is to read the New Testament starting with Romans and then to Ephesians and next to the Gospels of Jesus.

Denominational churches get too hung on the little things of the Bible (God's Word) and I feel takes you away from the true life that God would have you lead and the person that He would want you to be. Because God will ultimately judge your heart and not care if you are baptized a certain way, or if you do or do not wear the right clothing or if you drive a car or a buggy.

Compare the Word of God against the spoken word of [godly] men, pray a lot, be wise in His wisdom and most of all let your heart be your guide, proofed and tested by the Word and your actions will be who you are.

[pjames32]

Don................please fix the header, church!

[Blackwater]

As with most things we do, I think most folks pick their church simply by going with the one they feel most comfortable in. There's merit in that, but as Christians, if we don't feel a little UN-comfortable from time to time, we're probably not hearing the kind of sermons we likely need to. So it's a bit of a balancing act, really, combining a good mix of theology, worship, and comraderie. Any of these without the others leaves us a bit "hollow" from the experience, I think? I think we all recognize intuitively what kind of church suits us most and best. It just takes a bit of Christian maturity to accept those sermons that make us feel a little uncomfortable. We have to remember that the whole purpose of being made UN-comfortable is so that we might be brought closer to Him, and correct our own willful behavior and thoughts. Even the "worst" church I've attended had something to offer anyone truly seeking the Lord, and His understanding. And none is "perfect," since not one of us CAN be perfect. But we can all do BETTER, and that's the great key, I think. As we progress in our walk, and encounter and absorb more and more wisdom and understanding, we see things differently than we did when younger and less experienced. Maybe this is the grand purpose for God's creation of time itself? I sure wish I'd known when young, many of the things I understand now! Patience is the hardest thing I've ever had to learn, and really, I probably didn't learn it at all, but just bided my time until I could understand what I felt was enough to have a glimmer, at least, of our Lord, and His will and purposes.

Some of us learn younger and more readily than the rest of us, but if my young Down's syndrome cousin can find Faith, anyone has that ability. It's whether and how we use our wills that determines what our relationship will be with the Lord. What a wonderful and loving God we serve!

[dverna]

Don................please fix the header, church!

TY to the mod who did this.

[HATCH]

TY to the mod who did this.

The Lord works in mysterious ways......

[dverna]

HATCH, that was funny....bordering on blasphemous....but funny. LOL

Thanks again

[Wayne Smith]

Blackwater, it was long ago said that the pastor's job is to: 'Comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable'. It is no less true now than it was then.

[Down South]

When I have to find a new church due to relocation or whatever, I start asking God to send me to the church He wants me to be in.
Yes, I search and research as well but God directs me.

[Preacher Jim]

in the book of Acts, a church has six pillars holding it up,
1. worship
2. Christian education
3. evangelism
4. mission
5. care of the needy
6. fellowship
a church should be equal in all of these as a new Testament church

[LAH]

I believe it's a good thing to visit other churches to see how others worship .

Totally agree.

[Ole Joe Clarke]

When you find that Perfect Church, the minute you join it will become imperfect. That's what happened to the one I joined. I found out later that it was imperfect all along. :-)

Matt chapter 22:

36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ Luke 10:27;
38 “This is the first and great commandment.
39 “And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ Eph 5:2; 1Thess 4:9; [Rom 13:8]; [Rom 13:10]; [1John 3:23]; [1John 4:21]; [John 13:34]; [John 15:12];

The way I see it, all you have to do is obey these 2 commandments and you make it into God's presence. Easy huh? No, I have more trouble with me, and anybody else.

Leon

[Down South]

Read the Epistles. Which church did you see that was perfect?
The perfect church will happen when Jesus comes to rule and reign for 1000 years. If you are looking for the perfect church, it is the one that our Lord directs you to and it will not be perfect but you will have your part to accomplish.
Hope that I'm not over bearing but I know my Lord and I know how he works. He always places me where I need to be regardless if I agree or not with with everything that comes out of the pulpit.

[Preacher Jim]

Downsouth your advice is perfect. As long as humans are there it will never be perfect but it can serve the Lord and accomplish much.

[Blackwater]

Thanks, Wayne. Point very well taken!

As to the "perfect church," it of course doesn't exist, except maybe in theory or maybe in Heaven. But there ARE significant differences among them, and always have been. Even back when Catholocism was the only Christian sect, there were differences from one monastery to another, and all other entities of the church with the rest. Over the last 2,000 years, these differences seem to have grown, as we've sought out more ways to disagree, rather than to agree, as Christ so undeniably encouraged us to. I think this is because our feelings get hurt WAY too easily, and our ears get "plugged up" way to easily as well. When we don't hear others, we stop growing, and start stagnating.

So .... it's really GOOD to hear others with other ideas than we may have at any given point in time. I know I've changed my mind and perceptions about many things in my time. Most folks I've talked with have done the same. So .... maybe it's a GOOD thing that we disagree? At least it keeps us thinking and studying and considering, and that can't be a bad thing, provided only that we don't tangle our egos up in it all.

I've been WAY too humbled in my life to think I've got all the answers. So ... I just keep looking, hearing, thinking, and considering. This has helped me greatly, though I've been about as dumb as a box of rocks on many occasions. But nothing succeeds like simple persistence! And I have, at least, been very persistent in my pursuit of understanding and Truth. It has been my main and maybe only real strength in the matter. But .... I'm STILL learning! Hope I always will be!

[Char-Gar]

"The Gospel is much like corn. You can have it creamed, whole, chopped on or off the cob, frozen, canned or fresh. However you have it is still corn. When it comes to churches and church people often throw away the corn and gnaw on the package."

All of this, my church is better than your church is hogwash, it is just package gnawing. The pure Gospel can be preached and not lived by either the clergy or the membership. I want a church where the Gospel is taught, caught and lived.

[Blackwater]

Amen, Char-Gar! Nothing edifies us so well as a good, dedicated church and its membership. My own church was established in 1855, and has burned down twice, but was always rebuilt, each time bigger and better than before. We've gone from a Sunday School attendance of 25-30 to now one of about 200 or more. And I think it's mostly because of the humble nature of the faithful. We're thankful, and unpresuming, and welcome new folks. We didn't always welcome new folks because they were so rare, nobody knew how! But it didn't take long for us to recognize this, and correct it.

The last time the church burned, it was arson by a young kid who was stealing stuff to sell to get drug money. He lit it up to cover his tracks, but was seen by a nearby neighbor and recognized. He was quickly caught. My grandfather was one of the major carpenters who rebuilt it after the first fire. This was probably back in the 19teens or so. Since the burning, we have nearly doubled in attendance! So indeed, the Lord really DOES work in mysterious ways, His wonders to fulfill.

One story from that last arson: Curtis, one of the "old heads" of the church, and now an honorary deacon, was offered one of the bricks from the church by our preacher, as a remembrance of the building he'd worshiped in for so many years (he's in his 80's now). He just looked at the preacher, said, "What would I want a brick for? I've got aplenty of them out under the shed." The preacher said he thought he might like it as a remembrance, and Curtis just said, "That building was never the church. The people in it are the real church, and the bricks and mortar in it are just things, and don't really mean that much to me. But thanks anyhow. Maybe somebody else might want one."

This, to me, really sums up what a church truly IS. It's the people in it, and NOT the outside trappings. "Wherever two or more are gathered in My name," there is the church, and love to boot. And it's really love - that essential element that God himself proclaimed Himself to be - that truly makes the church, anywhere you find one. People DO vary in their time and ability to decipher the scriptures and what they mean. Picking a church that stimulates and occasionally challenges you is probably the best thing one can do, intellectually. But spiritually? It's the love that makes a church, I think, more than anything else. Ours has surely grown because of it, at least.

[tarbe]

This thread can now be locked...after that last post by Blackwater.

Spot on...

[Char-Gar]

Churches do burn down, but I never knew one where the fire started in the pulpit? :-)

[Char-Gar]

The church has never been a building, a creed, a set of rules, an organization nor most of the things we associate with the word church. Church is the English translation of the NT Greek word "ekklesia", which is a compound word meaning those who are called out. This is plural and not singular. It does not mean an assembly or a meeting for there are other Greek words for that. The basic meaning are those who are called out of the world to follow Christ.

"Churches" as assemblies and/or organizations are the product of a human need for organization, authority and control in order advance the Gospel, but these "churches" are never "The Church". All to often the human need for authority and control become that tail that wag the dog. These human institutions adopt doctrines, standard and rules in order to exercise authority and control over the true church, the individual Christians. You don't believe right if you don't believe what I say you should believe. You don't act right, if you don't act the way I say you should act. These human churches all to often become guilt factories and not purveyors of God's grace.

I was ordained in 1973 and did not then, nor do I now, confuse my denomination with the church.