Question about the Lee 310gr .44 WFN

[rondog]

I just ordered a new Marlin 1894 in .44 mag. 20" barrel, 1/38 twist. I also recently bought a Lee C430-310-RF mold (great deal! Supposedly used, but not even dirty, $13.50!)

Chatting with another owner of this same rifle, he reported poor performance of this bullet in this rifle, because of the heavy weight and slow twist. He said he took the mold and milled off the top of it, until he'd cut off the gas check part of the cavities. This left him dropping boolits with plain flat bases, approx. 270grains or so. He said those performed much better in the Marlin.

My question - has anybody else done this or similar? Results? I don't even have the rifle yet, but I'm already looking for someone local with a milling machine!

[enfield]

From what I've heard, 310 would be too heavy, I got the 265 Ranch Dog for the 444 because of the slow twist. As far as milling, that's a pretty easy fix, I did a Lee 22 mould to make it 48 Gr to work in 16 twist 22 barrels and the Lee 35 200 Gr to make it about 180 Gr. You may be able to do the same thing with a belt sander sand paper , cut it and clamp the 2 ends on a flat table and then rub the mould blocks back and forth until the gas check portion is gone. At least the Lee moulds are cheap to experiment with.

[Johnch]

My Marlin 44 likes that bullet
[B]BUT[B] I slightly opened it up to drop a .432 dia bullet out of 50/50 pure lead and Wheel Weights and size the bullets to .431
Also I found I need to push the bullet with a MAX load ( Hodgon web site data ) of H110
Slow loads don't group anywhere as good
Vihtavuori N 110 Max Book loads produced better groups , but I am out of it and the only local place that sells their powders thinks it is made of Gold and I don't

Only tried those 2 powders , but 4227 , 2400 and maybe AA #9 might also push that bullet fast enough


John

[DougGuy]

I don't own the Marlin levergun but I recall reading a lot of threads in anticipation of buying one which never came about, and the general consensus was that the Marlin needs sized to .432" minimum and some reported best results at .434" and I will second the advice to use H110 and max loads with that heavy for caliber boolit. Nothing wrong with that boolit that it needs the mold milled down, it needs to be flung hard down the barrel and it will work. If the recoil is severe use a shoulder pad at the range.

I get great groups from the 310 RF in my 7 1/2" SBH with 17.0gr 2400 but I seat out long in the bottom crimp groove and this may be too long to cycle in the levergun. Yes to 50/50+2% and Felix lube great combination of alloy and lube never have to clean the bore.

[Shuz]

I just ordered a new Marlin 1894 in .44 mag. 20" barrel, 1/38 twist. I also recently bought a Lee C430-310-RF mold (great deal! Supposedly used, but not even dirty, $13.50!)

Chatting with another owner of this same rifle, he reported poor performance of this bullet in this rifle, because of the heavy weight and slow twist. He said he took the mold and milled off the top of it, until he'd cut off the gas check part of the cavities. This left him dropping boolits with plain flat bases, approx. 270grains or so. He said those performed much better in the Marlin.

My question - has anybody else done this or similar? Results? I don't even have the rifle yet, but I'm already looking for someone local with a milling machine!
Yes, I have that mould that has been milled down to remove the gas check shank. It works very well in my revolvers, but I sold my Marlin 1894 years ago because I could not get it to group well, with 250g boolits let alone 270g. I went all the way to .432 diameter boolits in the Marlin and prolly should have gone bigger. My advice would be to go big and go fast.

[rondog]

Ok, fat and fast - got it! I'll definitely try some first before I have the mold modded.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have a few random comments, as I owned a Marlin 44Mag and two of the Lee 310gr molds.

The Marlin groove size and twist rate should favor a lighter boolit...but others have experienced success with the above combination and you have gotten advice for that already. I never tried loading 310gr from either of my two molds, as they dropped small boolits, right near .4295 to .4300 and the GC shank was undersized, so I couldn't "crimp" a GC in place, unless I sized them to .430 or less.

If you like the Rifle, and the 310gr doesn't work out for you, I'd strongly suggest Lee's 200gr RF mold. The one I have drops a .431 boolit and did OK in the Marlin rifle that I use to own (it was a early 1990s example).

[mdi]

Are you fellers talking about Micro-groove rifling? While I don't own a Marlin I've read of many problems shooting cast in a Marlin with Micro-groove rifling...

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Mine had a micro-groove barrel. I had no problems with it, using fat and lightweight boolits.

[rondog]

The Marlin I just ordered has Ballard rifling.

And specifically, I'm asking if anyone has milled down a mold set to get rid of the gas check portion and make the 310 bullets lighter. And how well it worked?

[mdi]

Well, not an exact answer to your question, but I have "milled" a Lee mold to remove the bevel bases. I have a 230 TC 45 mold that had bevel bases. No special reason I don't like them, I just don't. I used a sharp single cut file and draw filed the top of the mold until the bevel was gone. I now have a few more tools to work with (drill press and belt sander) and it would be much quicker and easier now. I just went slow and made sure the top was flat and square...

[joatmon]

mdi What was your new weight?
Aaron

[GhostHawk]

I shoot mine in a .444marlin handi rifle. Little faster twist than that I am sure.

Sure gave me some pretty cloverleafs with 13 grains of Red Dot below them.

[JohnH]

The Marlin I just ordered has Ballard rifling.

And specifically, I'm asking if anyone has milled down a mold set to get rid of the gas check portion and make the 310 bullets lighter. And how well it worked? Yes, I did this some years ago and still use the mold. I posted a link to a comment I made about the mold on a similar thread to this during the past week. I milled it down just to have a plain base boolit. It is a simple operation if you have access to a milling machine and a fly cutter. Otherwise any machine shop should be able to do the job for you. I do not know the twist rate of the gun you have ordered but the 1-38 twist will barely stabilize the 310 in full dress. Twist rate has nothing to do with boolit rate, it is about boolit length, the longer the boolit, the faster the twist required for stabilization. I guess the confusion exists because as a boolit gets longer, it gets heavier. Proof in the pudding of this is heavy for caliber all copper bullets which have trouble stabilizing in standard twist barrels. For whatever reasons, SAAMI specs for 44 Mag rifle barrels calls for a .432 groove diameter. I have seen references to this being to mimick the pressure loss over the cylinder gap of revolvers, and even thought this might be the case myself before reading of it, but I've never seen this information from sources other than folks like us, so I still question it's veracity. That said, it is possible to get undersize boolits to shoot but it is more often by chance than by principle. Best results will be had with boolits of groove diameter or slightly larger. Using boolits appropriate to twist rate also helps. Though it is jacketed, the Speer 270 Gold Dot performed very well for me in an NEF Handi Rifle. I do have a copy of Lee's 200 RF, both a 2 banger and a 6 banger. 431 is an average boolit diameter and the NEF and a Rossi 92 I have give mixed results with the boolit. Ultimately my solution to the accuracy woes I was experiencing was to purchase an NOE copy of the famous Keith 429421 250 grain SWC in a 434 diameter mold. For the ranges a 44 Mag is going to be used at there really is little need for boolits heavier than 250 grains. The 270 will edge the 250 and the 310 slightly in useable trajectory but for killing deer and hogs and tin cans at ranges between spitting and 125 yards there is little the heavy weight do that he 250 won't. I'll take accuracy over boolit weight any day. And remember, the place Elmer Keith was trying to get to was 1200 fps with a 250 grain boolit from a four inch barrel. Lot's of killing has been done with such loads. I also like the modified 310 as a muzzleloader boolit. It has proven to be very accurate in 50 cal's with a sabot and 100 grain charge of black and 777.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

The slow twist and consequent lack of accuracy with heavy / long boolits is why I have never gotten one of them . Can't fathom why they go with such a slow twist.

[OlDeuce]

I'm having good accurate shoots with the 310gr GC lee boolit. I don't have a Marlin , but doing good in my Old Winchesters the 20'' carbine has 1:38 twist
and 26'' has 1:18 twist !!

Ol Deuce

[JohnH]

The slow twist and consequent lack of accuracy with heavy / long boolits is why I have never gotten one of them . Can't fathom why they go with such a slow twist. Goes back to the 1873 Winchester in 44-40. That rifle was given the 1-38 twist and works very well with the 200 grain bullets the cartridge was originally loaded with. It was Keith's work with the 44 Special, which was originally loaded with a 246 grain bullet that gave birth to the 44 Magnum. Handguns have typically been given fast twists for caliber to give better stabilization to longer, heavier bullets from the short barrels and lower velocities. Why the gun makers chose to stay with the 44-40's twist when they began making 44 Magnum rifles is anyone's guess. Gun makers are not known for being forward thinkers, and the slow twist works just fine with bullets of 250 grains in a rifle length barrel, and it is doubtful that in the mid 1960's anyone besides Elmer Keith was seriously thinking about 300 grain bullets in the 44 Magnum. In the early 1970's when SAAMI was founded, the 1-38 twist was already the nominal twist being used and for that reason alone it became the standard. Considering that there is at least talk about the 432 groove diameter the 44 rifles have been saddled with being related to pressure, slower twists also generate lower pressures and these two combined may be the reasons. Who knows. We are saddled with the problem and it is what it is. Work with your gun, know it's limitations and live within that. Or get it rebarreled ;)

[mdi]

mdi What was your new weight?
Aaron

IIRC; appprox 220 gr. with my alloy (kinda soft, 10-11 BHN mystery metal)...

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Goes back to the 1873 Winchester in 44-40. That rifle was given the 1-38 twist and works very well with the 200 grain bullets the cartridge was originally loaded with. It was Keith's work with the 44 Special, which was originally loaded with a 246 grain bullet that gave birth to the 44 Magnum. Handguns have typically been given fast twists for caliber to give better stabilization to longer, heavier bullets from the short barrels and lower velocities. Why the gun makers chose to stay with the 44-40's twist when they began making 44 Magnum rifles is anyone's guess. Gun makers are not known for being forward thinkers, and the slow twist works just fine with bullets of 250 grains in a rifle length barrel, and it is doubtful that in the mid 1960's anyone besides Elmer Keith was seriously thinking about 300 grain bullets in the 44 Magnum. In the early 1970's when SAAMI was founded, the 1-38 twist was already the nominal twist being used and for that reason alone it became the standard. Considering that there is at least talk about the 432 groove diameter the 44 rifles have been saddled with being related to pressure, slower twists also generate lower pressures and these two combined may be the reasons. Who knows. We are saddled with the problem and it is what it is. Work with your gun, know it's limitations and live within that. Or get it rebarreled ;)

Excellent post !! Thats why I never got one . Would have to rebarrel it first thing . I would prolly rebarrel one with a 14" twist .

[rondog]

Thank you JohnH!!