Lee 170gr FN PP for Mosin

[thirtythirty]

I would like to try PP this Boolit for the Mosin. I have IMR 3031 on hand and a Lyman #4 Cast manual in the mail, however I have the sneaking suspicion that this Boolit may not be in the listings. Can anyone confirm this? If so does any have a load they would be willing to share or have a resource they could point me towards? I would like to get north of 2000fps so I can do some longer range shooting (200-300yds) without having to adjust sights all over the place too much (and I'm curious to see how fast I can go!). Bore slugs at .312 and I have already patched some Boolits to about .314. Will be using a WW alloy, if that matters.

Thanks for the help!

[ShooterAZ]

That particular boolit is not listed in the Lyman #4, and neither is IMR 3031 powder. However, with paper patching we are advised to start with the minimum jacketed load listing for a given weight and work up. Slower powders work the best for patching, W760, IMR4831, RL22 and similar. Patch them tight and use a good lube. Good luck!

[thirtythirty]

That particular boolit is not listed in the Lyman #4, and neither is IMR 3031 powder. However, with paper patching we are advised to start with the minimum jacketed load listing for a given weight and work up. Slower powders work the best for patching, W760, IMR4831, RL22 and similar. Patch them tight and use a good lube. Good luck!

Thank you! Very helpful.

[webfoot10]

In the older Ideal/Lyman load books, they say to use any 30-06 cast bullet loads in the 7.62x54
Russian rifles. Also 303 Savage uses 30-30 load data. The cast loads are pretty mild, and 28 grs
of 3031 will put you at about 1950 fps.

[arlon]

Compare some cast load data from a 7.62x51 (.308) and the 7.62x54r, they are almost identical on the starting end. Max pressure with jacketed bullets is of course higher for .308.. Might give you some starting data through extrapolation for cast bullets.

[thirtythirty]

Ok, dies and such finally came in. Got a batch together with a minimum charge of IMR 3031 (40grs) over the aforementioned PP lee 170gr .309 Boolits. Used a bit of vaseline to lube them so they went nicely into the cases. Couldn't hit a 2'x2' target at 25yds. Awful leading. What did I do wrong? I'm wondering if the vaseline compromised the onion skin patch?

Thanks for your help!

[grullaguy]

Possible causes:

Crimping after seating bullet
Patch not touching rifling
Excessive sizing down of bullet after patching

My apologies in advance for not reading back through the thread. I am tired and on my way to bed. Night all.

[GhostHawk]

IMR 3031 94.7 48.2 3.12 2831 100.0 53000 9891 1.029 ! Near Maximum !

Was what I found in my notes. I make no claims about this being a safe load.
Nor indeed what any given set of numbers might mean. Use at your own risk, use safe reloading practices, start low and work up.

Best of luck.

[thirtythirty]

Possible causes:

Crimping after seating bullet
Patch not touching rifling
Excessive sizing down of bullet after patching

My apologies in advance for not reading back through the thread. I am tired and on my way to bed. Night all.

Thanks for the reply.
I used a crimping die, but only to take out the flare, not to put an honest to goodness crimp on. I guess next time I won't use it at all but I'd be surprised if that was it. Some of the patches on Boolits were a little deformed, so I think they're making contact with the rifling but I should double check that. I don't size bullets after patching them, so that shouldn't be an issue.

I guess I'll just make another batch with all that in mind and see what happens.

Oh, has anyone had experience with lube maybe compromising the patch?

[grullaguy]

Thanks for the reply.
I used a crimping die, but only to take out the flare, not to put an honest to goodness crimp on. I guess next time I won't use it at all but I'd be surprised if that was it. Some of the patches on Boolits were a little deformed, so I think they're making contact with the rifling but I should double check that. I don't size bullets after patching them, so that shouldn't be an issue.

I guess I'll just make another batch with all that in mind and see what happens.

Oh, has anyone had experience with lube maybe compromising the patch?

In my rifles, I hand seat the sized pp bullet into the fired/unsized case by hand. I do chamfer the neck if I think the patch may hang up. No need to bell.

Having the bullet fill the throat is desirable, so a bullet that fits into a fired/expanded case snug, will also be close to perfect for the throat. If using a compressible filler, there is the added benefit of seating the bullet out of the case, so that it can meet the rifling and then be seated the final bit when the bolt is closed. Any number of lubes work, but it is a bit of a knack to figure how much to put on for the best results. I use some old Aerowax that I originally got for waxing the limbs on my recurve bow.

[thirtythirty]

In my rifles, I hand seat the sized pp bullet into the fired/unsized case by hand. I do chamfer the neck if I think the patch may hang up. No need to bell.

Having the bullet fill the throat is desirable, so a bullet that fits into a fired/expanded case snug, will also be close to perfect for the throat. If using a compressible filler, there is the added benefit of seating the bullet out of the case, so that it can meet the rifling and then be seated the final bit when the bolt is closed. Any number of lubes work, but it is a bit of a knack to figure how much to put on for the best results. I use some old Aerowax that I originally got for waxing the limbs on my recurve bow.

So you just size the case neck by firing a PP round? Interesting. What do you do for firearms with tubular magazines?

[grullaguy]

I don't own any lever actions, so have not had to figure that method out.

I would first try a full case of powder/filler, so that the bullet would not be able to move back in the case. Would it work? Not sure...

[NoAngel]

In my rifles, I hand seat the sized pp bullet into the fired/unsized case by hand. I do chamfer the neck if I think the patch may hang up. No need to bell.

Having the bullet fill the throat is desirable, so a bullet that fits into a fired/expanded case snug, will also be close to perfect for the throat. If using a compressible filler, there is the added benefit of seating the bullet out of the case, so that it can meet the rifling and then be seated the final bit when the bolt is closed. Any number of lubes work, but it is a bit of a knack to figure how much to put on for the best results. I use some old Aerowax that I originally got for waxing the limbs on my recurve bow.




I do the same. I try to use a powder that gives a 100% case fill and thumb seat the bullet roughly .100 too long. The OAL is set when the bolt is closed. The powder prevents the bullet from setting back. The only downside is, it's a lot like a muzzle loader. Once loaded, you gotta shoot it. Unloading it is a pain and messy as it will usually pull the bullet out of the case.

[ShooterAZ]

Size the boolits so that they are a tight slip fit by hand into a fired, primed case. I don't think that vaseline would be a good choice of a lube as it will saturate the patch. I use JPW or Rooster Jacket, or even White Label BAC lightly applied to the patch. Set the boolit long in the case and let the bolt seat it as it is being closed. This will engage it into the rifling. This, and using a slow burning powder has worked well in my MN.

[thirtythirty]

Size the boolits so that they are a tight slip fit by hand into a fired, primed case. I don't think that vaseline would be a good choice of a lube as it will saturate the patch. I use JPW or Rooster Jacket, or even White Label BAC lightly applied to the patch. Set the boolit long in the case and let the bolt seat it as it is being closed. This will engage it into the rifling. This, and using a slow burning powder has worked well in my MN.

Thanks for that. What are those lubes normally used for? (Sorry dumb question) Where would you buy them?

What does everyone else use for lube?

[edwin41]

I do size after patching with my lyman lubrisizer.
The lube I am using is a mix of 50/50 beeswax vaseline.
The paperpatch after this sizing is real smooth and slippery .. patches are on real Thight as the are ironed out in the proces.

[thirtythirty]

Thanks Edwin41. Maybe I just used too much vaseline then.

I was just cleaning the Mosin of some of this leading and I noticed that the bore is either more worn or a bit counterbored towards the muzzle. Would this be having any effect on my rounds?

[Ricochet]

Mosins that were refurbished over there pretty much all got counterbored at the muzzle to take out cleaning rod wear. Think of it as a deeply crowned muzzle.

[edwin41]

in my Husqvarna rifle I can seat out the patched bullet as far as possible and still not reach the rifling .
common practice would be to wrap to a diametre of the throat , so the bullet would be a thight fitting.

in my case I size the patched bullets to nominal diametre and set them at a normal overall length .
this would mean that the bullet has a rather long jump to the rifling , but I guess the patch survives this jump because
I find no leading in the barrel.

what I am trying to say is that you could try a core little over boresize , wrap it twice with your patch and run them through
a sizer of nominal for caliber size.
you could put a little dab of 50/50 beeswax-Vaseline on your fingers and get a little on the patch before sizing if you don't have a
lubrisizer.

you will notice that the patch gets ironed out and becomes smooth and very tough , tough enough to make the jump to the rifling.


I am currently testing core sizes by the way... I even had a coresize of nominal caliber size , wrapped twice and sized
to nominal caliber size again , and even these worked. this patch was really compressed , smooth and thight !

my finished projectiles are more leaning towards the j-word layout , a lead core with a jacked in nominal size , set at a nominal
OAL...


I have to make the comment that I cast with a soft alloy , just lead with some tin , and fumbeling around in the lower velocities with the AA 5477 powder..

[thirtythirty]

Ok, update. Am now sizing cores to .307 and PP up to in between .313 and .314 with two wraps of onionskin. Began seating Boolits as per the suggestions above by closing bolt on loosely seated Boolit. Cut the lube and made up one set of test cartridges with 12gr of red dot and one with 40gr of IMR 3031. The Red dot load appeared to work adequately with little to no leading. The IMR load on the other hand just smeared the barrel. I feel like I'm missing something really obvious here.

Again, really appreciate the help!

[thirtythirty]

Leading appears to end 4" after the muzzle. Am I maybe just pushing this Boolit too fast?

[edwin41]

I don't think the bullets are pushed to hard , but the patch isn't up for the job in my opinion.
you could try to size the boolits after patching , with a Vaseline / beeswax lube , to nominal groove dia..
this will really tighten the patch and smooths it out.
the patch has become very though this way...
do necksize the fired case , then with a lyman m die set the correct necksize , and seat the bullet so that the bottom does not stick in the casing , but like the length of the neck or so..

it works for me...

[thirtythirty]

I don't think the bullets are pushed to hard , but the patch isn't up for the job in my opinion.
you could try to size the boolits after patching , with a Vaseline / beeswax lube , to nominal groove dia..
this will really tighten the patch and smooths it out.
the patch has become very though this way...
do necksize the fired case , then with a lyman m die set the correct necksize , and seat the bullet so that the bottom does not stick in the casing , but like the length of the neck or so..

it works for me...

Thanks Edwin. Unfortunately don't have a lubrisizer (yet:) ) Until then I'm thinking of just taking it down a notch or two. If I were to use load data for a 30-30 (i.e, like 29gr of IMR 3031) would that be safe? I've just heard a little bit about dangerously low loads (mostly in the context of faster burning stuff). I'm just wondering if the same principle holds true for slow burning stuff.

Happy Canada Day!

[arlon]

Some mosins have really rough pitted bores. It makes me wonder if the bore is just shredding the paper patch with one load and maybe not pushed as hard with the red dot load. I had one MN model 91 that had a really rough bore and was counterbored about an inch. It had something like a .314 groove (not much left for lands either). and it would just eat brass cleaning brushes and shredded cloth patches. It shot about 2ft groups at 50ft. I found that it made a really good tomato stake in the garden. Another m91 with a perfect .311 groove is one of the more accurate milsurps I own. A 2 groove 03A3 beats everything else though.

[thirtythirty]

Some mosins have really rough pitted bores. It makes me wonder if the bore is just shredding the paper patch with one load and maybe not pushed as hard with the red dot load. I had one MN model 91 that had a really rough bore and was counterbored about an inch. It had something like a .314 groove (not much left for lands either). and it would just eat brass cleaning brushes and shredded cloth patches. It shot about 2ft groups at 50ft. I found that it made a really good tomato stake in the garden. Another m91 with a perfect .311 groove is one of the more accurate milsurps I own. A 2 groove 03A3 beats everything else though.

Hmmm. Interesting. I checked the bore again, and there is a little pitting, but nothing stupid so I don't think its that. I just went out to test out the reduced loads (30, 32, and 34 gr of IMR 3031). I started with the 30gr loads intending to work my way up. Unfortunately there was severe leading after only five shots. I am patching to probably within 1/16 inch away from the ogive. I'm patching just past the driving bands on my 30/30 and they seem to be working fine, so I don't think that there's too little patch contact (correct me if I'm wrong?). Should I maybe try patching to bore size instead of to groove size? Could this cause too much neck tension (Boolits coming out at .313-.314 w patch, groove .312)

[edwin41]

could you post a picture of youre patched bullet ?

[edwin41]

Thanks Edwin. Unfortunately don't have a lubrisizer (yet:) ) Until then I'm thinking of just taking it down a notch or two. If I were to use load data for a 30-30 (i.e, like 29gr of IMR 3031) would that be safe? I've just heard a little bit about dangerously low loads (mostly in the context of faster burning stuff). I'm just wondering if the same principle holds true for slow burning stuff.

Happy Canada Day!

hmm.. I missed this one.
when a heavily reduced load is desired they are loaded with small amounts of fast powders , like alliant bullseye.
the real danger comes with the slow powders in small amounts in large casings , when the primer pushes out the projectile , but the powder hasn't ignited yet... it might implode the casing and the full pressure falls on the receiver...
its called the " secondary explosion effect " or "SEE " in short.
this "SEE" effect could very well blow up your receiver part , so be very , very carefull with the slow powders.

[edwin41]

also , you might try to contact 303 guy , who has done a lot of testing and experience with pitted bores in the past.

[thirtythirty]

I looked at several loads in my lyman cast manual for 30-06, .308, 30-40, etc to find starting loads for IMR 3031 with an equivalent Boolit and they all listed 30grs so I think I'm safe.

How great an effect does pitting have on a PP? I feel like the pitting in my bore in pretty insignificant however I'd love to hear from your/others experience.

[thirtythirty]

Will attempt to post pics of the next batch.

[Any Cal.]

Maybe wrap the patch past the ogive...

I haven't gotten great accuracy p patching, but never got leading.

[thirtythirty]

Hey, was cleaning the gun again today and decided to slug the barrel with a PP Boolit just to see what happened. I'm beginning to think that it may be a cleaning issue. Previously I've cleaned it until the bore looked shiny, however I'm beginning to think that the shiny lands are producing an illusion such that debris in the grooves may still be hidden. In any case, I slugged the gun to cover all bases.

3 of the 4 lands tore the paper, as you can see, however the 4th maintained its integrity.

Anybody know what this means? Is this a faulty test?

Thanks!

[Ricochet]

I think that pushing your patched boolits through the bore to see what they look like when they come out is a great idea!

[barrabruce]

Your better off to use say a 1/2 grain of bullseye or something to just get the bullet to drop out the end of the barrel.
I think the stop starting from hammering one through will obscure your results a little by stop starting and the fact that the base is getting hammered by a steel rod and not a column of gas.
Saying that I have done the same anyway.:grin:
Your bullet shows me the the patch is too small because of there is no grunge on the groove rub area.
You will continue to get gas cutting...and thou it might seal somewhere in the journey to get consistency it would be very hard to get.

Thats what I think anyway.
But then again I'm no expert.

[HABCAN]

At a guess, looking at those pics, I'd say your patch is 'way too thin and your boolit is cast 'way undersize. Good results have been had with with big fat projectiles: two wraps of wet copy paper unsized after drying on a nominal cast .312 LEE 185gr. or 160gr. in both Lee Enfields and MNs, on 18.0 grs. IMR4227, 24.0/28.7grs. IMR4198. These hand fit tightly into a fired case mouth and are then crimped in place with the LEE Factory Crimp die. The paper 'confettis' about 8' in front of the muzzle. Accuracy is acceptable to 200 yds. Of course, YMMV.203576

[thirtythirty]

Wow, thank you all for your replies. So it sounds like the consensus is that my PP is too thin. Hmm, ok. I've tried PPing up to .315 before however I had trouble closing the bolt as I think the throat was too narrow. However maybe if I try for .314 or somewhere's around there. Even so, isn't that a little weird that a Boolit that is .001 over bore is letting gas by?