Accidental discharge with Traditions Hawken

[tranders]

My brother bought a new Traditions Hawken in 50 caliber last week. Yesterday we went to the range to try it out. It actually shot pretty good,but I had a problem with the hammer. When cocking the hammer from half cock to full cock my thumb slipped off the hammer and the rifle fired. I was practicing safe gun handling so the rifle was pointing down range,but my shorts had seen better days :p. My question is should the half cock caught the hammer with that situation? I was in between half and full cock when my thumb slipped.
Forgot to add this rifle has double set triggers. Could it be an adjustment problem?

Thanks for the help!

[Dan Cash]

Yes, the half cock notch should have caught the hammer. Did you set the trigger before cocking? You should not, but if you did, it could explain the didcharge. Does the half cock still work?

[54bore]

Not after you passed half cock headed to full, if you slip its gonna go to the cap, at least i'd think so? I would think if you were nearly cocked it would go to the Cap if you slipped?

[54bore]

I just grabbed one of my Renegades and tried this, from the half cock position headed to full and slip the half cock SHOULD have caught it. I have never slipped off the hammer and tested this first hand

[tranders]

Yes, the half cock notch should have caught the hammer. Did you set the trigger before cocking? You should not, but if you did, it could explain the didcharge. Does the half cock still work?

I did not set the trigger before cocking the hammer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dondiego]

Was your finger inside the trigger guard at the time of discharge?

[bubba.50]

guns with set triggers have a fly in the lock to prevent the sear from goin' into the half cock notch upon firin'. likely you had the hammer back past where this happens & the fly was just doin' its job.

[tranders]

Was your finger inside the trigger guard at the time of discharge?

No sir. Fingers nowhere near trigger. My brother had it happen to him also. Luckily he had not put on a cap


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tranders]

guns with set triggers have a fly in the lock to prevent the sear from goin' into the half cock notch upon firin'. likely you had the hammer back past where this happens & the fly was just doin' its job.

So was I pulling the hammer back too far?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Could be the fly sticking from any lube in the lock thats holding up the fly, http://www.frontiermuzzleloading.com/t10739-lubricating-your-lock

Also, check the lock screws. If any are loose, the lock can move out just a bit and the sear will drop down onto the trigger bar.

[bubba.50]

So was I pulling the hammer back too far?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sorry I'm not better at 'splainin' things but, I'll try again. there's a point in the arc of cockin' the gun where the fly trips over to do its job which is to keep the sear from droppin' into the half-cock notch on firin'. I'm just sayin' MAYBE you had the hammer somewhere 'tween that point and full cock when yer thumb slipped.

[BPJONES]

sorry I'm not better at 'splainin' things but, I'll try again. there's a point in the arc of cockin' the gun where the fly trips over to do its job which is to keep the sear from droppin' into the half-cock notch on firin'. I'm just sayin' MAYBE you had the hammer somewhere 'tween that point and full cock when yer thumb slipped.

That's kind of what I am thinking as well. Take the gun and cock it just past half cock and let your thumb slip and see what happens. If the half cock catches it then see what happens when you take it further back and let your thumb slip.

[tranders]

sorry I'm not better at 'splainin' things but, I'll try again. there's a point in the arc of cockin' the gun where the fly trips over to do its job which is to keep the sear from droppin' into the half-cock notch on firin'. I'm just sayin' MAYBE you had the hammer somewhere 'tween that point and full cock when yer thumb slipped.

Ok, I understand. Thank you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OverMax]

Since the rifle was capped and charged it sounds to me the accidental hammer released took place well above the Fly's tipping point. Scary unexpected firing but no one got hurt and that's what really matters.

You shouldn't need to set those double set triggers with the rifle cocked at all.
Get that Rear Trigger Set so to Lighten the front Trigger a shade more comfortable or heavier than a hair trigger pull on your first attempt there after just don't touch that rear Triggers set screw. The setting of the rear trigger is a personal choice thing. Once that rear hook has been set. I like my front triggers pull in the neighborhood of 2~2-1-2 lbs.

Just saying
I kind'a thought over the years T/C made those Seneca's & Cherokee models for those Blessed with smaller hands. If its a chore to cock those full size Locks safely. By all means consider the purchasing of a (seneca /cherokee) or even a inline that fits you appropriately.

[Col4570]

One thing to do,recut the checkering on the hammer thumb so that it feels sharp.There is nothing worse than a greasy thumb sliding off the Hammer when almost at half cock.Not saying this is how it happened since the Cap is usually fitted when at half cock.These things happen but he had it covered the gun was pointing down range.All part of the wonderful world of Black Powder Shooting.

[indian joe]

Bubba 50 - you got it !
The fly will drag back and then trip into place - while thats happenin the half cock will not catch a slipped hammer nor will it when the fly is in place ready for the lock to fire - half cock on these locks only works as safe ifn you start from hammer down and pull back into the half cock notch. The major lesson would appear to be DO NOT PUT A CAP ON THE NIPPLE UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO KILL SOMETHIN!! ....what should have happened here is the slipped hammer should have fell on a bare nipple !! Might be that the lock is a little out of tune - if the trigger is leanin on the sear bar when its not set the lock is already hair triggered OR some of those locks have (or used to) a small screw in the tumbler that lightens the trigger pull by blocking the depth the sear can engage (I dont know some technical terms here but I know CVA locks) either of those can make it durn touchy.
Joe

[indian joe]

BPJones
If this is a long sear CVA lock you will wreck it in short order doin what you suggest to prove the point !! It will take only a few hits into the half cock to turn the end of the sear up like a banana and a few more will tear it clear off. No need for this - you can feel that fly in the tumbler working and once its in place (as Bubba said above) the fly will do its job and a slipped hammer will fire the gun. If you in the field (hunting) put the hammer safely on half cock - cap it - go find a deer - when you got him ready to shoot, cock it slow and careful - if he spooks and you dont shoot - first thing is pull the cap off the nipple, then lower the hammer, then half cock it, then recap it.
At the range DO NOT CAP THE PIECE UNTIL YOU AT THE FIRING LINE - IN POSITION - READY TO SHOOT YOUR ALLOCATED TARGET - put the cap on the nipple last thing before you pull the trigger.

[tranders]

Bubba 50 - you got it !
The fly will drag back and then trip into place - while thats happenin the half cock will not catch a slipped hammer nor will it when the fly is in place ready for the lock to fire - half cock on these locks only works as safe ifn you start from hammer down and pull back into the half cock notch. The major lesson would appear to be DO NOT PUT A CAP ON THE NIPPLE UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO KILL SOMETHIN!! ....what should have happened here is the slipped hammer should have fell on a bare nipple !! Might be that the lock is a little out of tune - if the trigger is leanin on the sear bar when its not set the lock is already hair triggered OR some of those locks have (or used to) a small screw in the tumbler that lightens the trigger pull by blocking the depth the sear can engage (I dont know some technical terms here but I know CVA locks) either of those can make it durn touchy.
Joe

I was at the firing line with muzzle pointed at target when slipped hammer fell on cap. I was taught to install cap at half cock then shoulder rifle and go to full cock then fire. Maybe I didn't explain well enough.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[54bore]

bubba.50 is da man! I knew there was a point during the cocking process that the fly gets tripped, after that point its 'GO TIME' before that point is reached the half cock position is stil in play

[indian joe]

Tranders - "I was at the firing line with muzzle pointed at target when slipped hammer fell on cap. I was taught to install cap at half cock then shoulder rifle and go to full cock then fire. Maybe I didn't explain well enough."

Tranders
At our little aussie BP club we would prefer to see you do that tother way round - dont want to argufy this - so here my reasons - think about it. If you at the firing line always its a given the rifle is pointing safely downrange (you did that and because you did no body got hurt - scared yes - hurt no - well done for that) - So set the triggers, bring the hammer to full cock and make sure it is safely engaged, then put a cap on the nipple, mount the gun and shoot, finger stays outside the trigger guard till time to fire - this way if there is anything a little dodgy with set trigger or sear engagement or your greasy thumb slips off the hammer - all that happens is a clunk - watch the flintlock fellers, they follow the same pattern, hammer to full cock, prime the pan, frizzen shut, mount the gun and shoot - versus your way any of those things results in an accidental discharge - you have to leave the range to change your underpants - not fun!
Major point --- for the most part we talkin about kit guns - even if they came from the store assembled and "ready to shoot" - some of the cheaper double set trigger ones go together less than perfectly - I like mine (triggers) set real light - you tech that thing it will go off - they are safe like that so long as the fineness is in the set of the trigger NOT in the sear tumbler engagement
1)- so thats one thing to check - some CVA's (Traditions now?) used to have a small screw into the sear notch (the pic here is taken from a posting by Dean D) you can clearly see that screw into the top of the tumbler facing straight towards the sear - screw it in - blocks the sear engagement = lightens trigger pull - screw it out - deeper sear engagement = heavier trigger pull .....maybe Dean didnt figure this OR he viewed that adjustment as dangerous (can be the case - you need enough engagement here to be safe) - so check this on your lock - no little screw? = no potential problem, but if ya got that screw it could be your problem.
2)- some of these (double set trigger) guns go together in such a way that you might need to set the trigger before you bring the hammer to full cock because of interference between the trigger plate and the sear bar when the trigger is in the fired position (not set) - this can be fixed several ways - bending the sear bar a little - sometimes just a piece of thin cardboard under the trigger plate where it meets the wood - again we are talking about mass produced kit guns here not your five thousand dollar custom longrifle. Pull the lock and trigger mechanism out and play with them off the gun, set and fire the trigger, work the lock - cock it and uncock it - understand how these things work together you will figure out whats wrong (or not) - what needs adjusting (or not) and what happened to cause that AD 196670 please note the picture is of a (verycheap) single trigger lock - no fly in the tumbler - no bridle to support the works - I used it to illustrate the screw into the full cock notch used to lighten trigger pull /sear engagement

[tranders]

Thank you Indian Joe for the explanation. Next time I'm at my brother's place I will pull the lock and take a gander.

[Sasquatch-1]

At the range yesterday with my TC Hawken. This is a flinter and has set triggers. I specifically tried pulling the cock back and slowly letting it forward. As long as my finger was not on the trigger it stopped at half cock each time. I did not let it slam back into place.

[indian joe]

At the range yesterday with my TC Hawken. This is a flinter and has set triggers. I specifically tried pulling the cock back and slowly letting it forward. As long as my finger was not on the trigger it stopped at half cock each time. I did not let it slam back into place.
It all depends how far back the hammer comes before it trips the fly into place - as you pull the hammer back the sear nose drags the fly to the back of its notch in the hammer , next it slides up over the rounded end of the fly and the fly flicks forward in its notch - from that point onward the lock will fire (somewhere between half cock and full cock this happens - closer to full cock with my guns) All this is appropriate to conventional style locks (CVA - Siler - L&R etc) that are meant to copy originals - flat springs etc. Maybe TC has figured another way to build it that allows half cock to work with double set triggers? I have not had one dismantled.

[Eddie2002]

I was studying how a fly works on a Siler, L+R, CVA and some other locks and it looked like there are two ways the fly gets moves in the tumbler. The first way is how Indian Joe describes it, the sear rubs or catches on the fly and moves it so it blocks the half cocked notch. The other way the fly moves is from the centrifugal force of the tumbler spinning when the lock is fired. The fly is on a pivot which causes it to move to the half cocked notch as the lock is fired and the tumbler spins. As the tumbler spins the fly can't catch up till it gets to the half cocked position. That's why some locks can return to a half cocked position when they are fired but slowed down by thumb pressure. There isn't enough centrifugal force on the fly to make it move into the half cock notch.

[Sasquatch-1]

I pulled it back as close to the full cocked position as I could without locking it back. As long as I kept my finger away from the trigger it went back to half cock. As mentioned this was a TC. I have not tried it on my 70's model Traditions or my Euroarms.


It all depends how far back the hammer comes before it trips the fly into place - as you pull the hammer back the sear nose drags the fly to the back of its notch in the hammer , next it slides up over the rounded end of the fly and the fly flicks forward in its notch - from that point onward the lock will fire (somewhere between half cock and full cock this happens - closer to full cock with my guns) All this is appropriate to conventional style locks (CVA - Siler - L&R etc) that are meant to copy originals - flat springs etc. Maybe TC has figured another way to build it that allows half cock to work with double set triggers? I have not had one dismantled.

[indian joe]

I was studying how a fly works on a Siler, L+R, CVA and some other locks and it looked like there are two ways the fly gets moves in the tumbler. The first way is how Indian Joe describes it, the sear rubs or catches on the fly and moves it so it blocks the half cocked notch. The other way the fly moves is from the centrifugal force of the tumbler spinning when the lock is fired. The fly is on a pivot which causes it to move to the half cocked notch as the lock is fired and the tumbler spins. As the tumbler spins the fly can't catch up till it gets to the half cocked position. That's why some locks can return to a half cocked position when they are fired but slowed down by thumb pressure. There isn't enough centrifugal force on the fly to make it move into the half cock notch.

Ok I tried it with an L&R, a CVA , a Buchele - all flintlocks - could not get any of em to do it like you say - the only way would be if you maybe elevated the muzzle so the fly swung back to the rear in its little groove and /or somehow you kept the sear away from contacting the tumbler until the sear came in contact ahead of the fly but still behind the half cock - other possibility is the fly worn down? I see what you are thinking about with centrifical force but if that fly is setup properly and working as it should then when the hammer is at full cock the fly is now ahead of the sear and in a position that prevents the sear from going into the half cock - thats the whole idea of it - when a set trigger lock fires we have a momentary impact of the trigger bar to the sear bar then immediately the sear moves there is no contact with the trigger - if you take that fly out then every time the tumbler rotates the sear will jam into the half cock instead of firing - now if you fire a double set trigger using the front trigger (firing unset) then that changes everything - now it works the same as a single trigger and your pressure on the trigger holds the sear away from the face of the tumbler as it fires - dont need a fly for that.
You have me going here so I went back and tried three more (caplocks 2CVA and a little wesson rifle) - no go with those either, tried with muzzle elevated vertical still no go, The Wesson rifle is different it wont cock untoil you set the trigger and the half cock is right down close to the end of the hammer throw - just off the nipple. Six double trigger locks, all work as they should, could not get one of them to engage the half cock from the full cocked position (nor should they) - for me your centrifugal force idea did not fly. [smilie=s: (sorry couldnt help meself there)

[indian joe]

I pulled it back as close to the full cocked position as I could without locking it back. As long as I kept my finger away from the trigger it went back to half cock. As mentioned this was a TC. I have not tried it on my 70's model Traditions or my Euroarms.

Hey Sasquatch - Yeah that works - and I guess takes us right back to the original question - his thumb slipped off the hammer before he got full cock - should that lock have hit the half cock and been safe? Eddie 2002 was talkin about a lock being able to go to the half cock (slow release) from fully cocked position and that dont work with any of mine - I dont want it to either! I want that fly doin its job how its meant to. Safewise I go back to my original deal - set the trigers - cock the hammer to full cock - THEN put a cap on the nipple and shoot. I reckon there might be something a bit iffy about the lock / trigger setup on that rifle. I would be havin a good look at it anyways.

[indian joe]

Hey Sasquatch - Yeah that works - and I guess takes us right back to the original question - his thumb slipped off the hammer before he got full cock - should that lock have hit the half cock and been safe? Eddie 2002 was talkin about a lock being able to go to the half cock (slow release) from fully cocked position and that dont work with any of mine - I dont want it to either! I want that fly doin its job how its meant to. Safewise I go back to my original deal - set the trigers - cock the hammer to full cock - THEN put a cap on the nipple and shoot. I reckon there might be something a bit iffy about the lock / trigger setup on that rifle. I would be havin a good look at it anyways.
Further to all of this we had a club shoot yesterday - one of our members had an accidental - she and her partner both experienced shooters (in the smokeless world) but relatively new to blackpowder and real new to double trigger muzzleloaders - you would have had to be watching close to spot it, she had the rifle at the shoulder and pretty much on target but slipped the hammer cocking it - pulled a shot just off the paper - I checked it out - set the trigger, cock it, cap it, shoot - nothing wrong with that rifle if that sequence is followed - ok we probably get lots of gunsmith arguments saying it needs fixing - and my own rifles are set up better than that - BUT - if that sequence is followed on the line there can be no AD as a result of a slipped hammer.

[charlie b]

Shouldn't it be cock, cap, set trigger, shoot?

I usually get set up, cock, cap, get a good sight picture, set trigger, breathe, shoot.

[54bore]

Shouldn't it be cock, cap, set trigger, shoot?

I usually get set up, cock, cap, get a good sight picture, set trigger, breathe, shoot.

Same here

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

nope, around these parts, we don't have time to sit ( we walk/hike actually) and let the animals come. All guns are on half cock, capped and the hunt begins.

[triggerhappy243]

i think the reference was at a shooting range. not on a hunt.

[54bore]

nope, around these parts, we don't have time to sit ( we walk/hike actually) and let the animals come. All guns are on half cock, capped and the hunt begins.

Target shooting and hunting are just a tad different

[indian joe]

Shouldn't it be cock, cap, set trigger, shoot?

I usually get set up, cock, cap, get a good sight picture, set trigger, breathe, shoot.

And if your piece is set up properly with some little clearance between trigger plates and sear bar when its unset - everything is ok - it goes safely to full cock - then you cap it - very little different to what I advocated - your way you cant get a AD either

[indian joe]

nope, around these parts, we don't have time to sit ( we walk/hike actually) and let the animals come. All guns are on half cock, capped and the hunt begins.
Hunting on your own (just one of you) if you slip it cocking about the worst can happen is you scare your game off or blow a hole in a tree --- but are you gonna feel happy with some dude you just met this morning walking behind you with a loaded gun and an itchy trigger finger? (nervous I mean) I'll pass on that deal thanks.
That is the reality of the situation on the range - some dude you never met with a gun you dont know and if he caps before he cocks and is nervous (or an old guy with some arthritis) or the piece is just a little out of tune she goes KABOOM when he didnt mean it. It SHOULD be pointed up range and safe - most times it is. **** happens at the range despite the best efforts of range officers - guys shoot their ramrod at the target (seen that three or four times) guys get talking and double charge the powder - or forget it altogether - even if there is "no harm done" from an AD - its still a bad experience for anybody in the close vicinity and much worse for the shooter that did it (if they dont feel like a real goose you better get em off the range - cuz it will happen again)

[charlie b]

That's why, when hunting, I would go to full cock, cap and then place a brass hat over the cap and let the hammer down on the hat. When ready to fire I'd shoulder the gun, get near to sights on target, go to full cock, pull off hat, set trigger, fire.

[Bill*B]

It may not have anything to do with your situation, but my own double set trigger flintlock developed a disturbing similar problem - the rifle had worked fine the day before, but when I pulled the cock back to what I thought was full cock and released it, it fell forward and fired without touching the trigger. As you said, that focuses your attention. I found that the rifle had lost the ability to engage the full cock notch. It would engage half-cock, but not full. It would engage full cock only if I set the trigger first, but would not engage with an unset trigger. The trigger was too high, and pressed on the sear. A bit of filing seems to have solved the problem. Full cock engages as it should, at least for now. Curious that it worked fine, then developed this defect out of the blue. I imagine that the clearances were on the edge of disaster and something (what, I have no idea) tipped things over the edge. I confess that now, when I haul that cock back, I do so as if I were fingering a rattlesnake's fang. Track of the Wolf has a pdf about set trigger adjustment (https://www.trackofthewolf.com/pdfs/catalog/page_352.pdf).

[tranders]

That's why, when hunting, I would go to full cock, cap and then place a brass hat over the cap and let the hammer down on the hat. When ready to fire I'd shoulder the gun, get near to sights on target, go to full cock, pull off hat, set trigger, fire.

Where does a person find these "brass hats" ? Seems like a good idea.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[charlie b]

I don't know anymore. Haven't had to use one for over 20 years. It was simply a brass thing that had an inside dia to fit over the nipple base and enough height so no pressure was applied to the cap on the nipple. Hole drilled in side so a string/cord/wire could be used as a tether (I tied mine to the trigger guard).

You could also make one out of something like PVC if you wanted to.

[tranders]

I don't know anymore. Haven't had to use one for over 20 years. It was simply a brass thing that had an inside dia to fit over the nipple base and enough height so no pressure was applied to the cap on the nipple. Hole drilled in side so a string/cord/wire could be used as a tether (I tied mine to the trigger guard).

You could also make one out of something like PVC if you wanted to.

Good to know. Thank you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk