What say ya'll?

[tinhorn97062]

Can a person be a "strong Christian" and a habitual liar at the same time? This came up earlier in a conversation that I was having.

Please, discuss.

[Bzcraig]

Brother, that is a loaded question! "Strong" needs to be defined as it's a very subjective word especially in this context. On face value my initial response would be 'no' inasmuch as in my mind any 'habitual or besetting' sin would indicate misunderstanding of some basic Christian doctrine(s). If though, for example, lying is a symptom of a larger personality disorder??

[GhostHawk]

Lie why? For who's benefit?

We all fail, falter, stumble and fall daily. Christ often said go forth and sin no more.

Can you be a strong believing Christian and a habitual liar?

I would tend to say not really. Either not that strong a christian or that leopard is not willing to change his spots.

More like a run of the mill "Christian" in name only and maybe for an hour on Sunday.

But Christ also cautioned us about judging.

So It seems to me if his faith was that strong he would stop the lies. But it is his Creator that he is going to have to convince, not me.

[bubba.50]

I would opine that a habitual liar would lie about bein' a "Strong Christian" too. makin' him not much of a Christian at all as well as a hypocrite.

my opinion & yer welcome to it.

[Boaz]

Agree with bubba , knowingly habitual lying and claiming to believe don't mix .

[tinhorn97062]

Interesting points of view, and I don't believe any are off base at all. The question is not specifically loaded..at least, not intentionally. Like I said, it came up in conversation today. I spoke up and said that if the Spirit of God was at work, then a person wouldn't be ok with habitually lying. The retort was that we all fall short, and we're all liars, and such. While this is true in theory, I would still contend with what Jesus said- the the Spirit of God, aka "the Comfortor", convicts us of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come. So- His work is clear. And we know that God said "don't lie". And we know that liars will have their place in the lake of fire. This is all bible doctrine. We were then challenged with "God deals with the things that we're ready for Hik to deal with". At that point, I chose to exit the conversation.

Anyway- I wasn't looking for any particular answer. I was looking for a general discussion on the matter, because iron sharpens iron. So please, continue to discuss.

[Love Life]

Meh. I'm just here to witness and spread the gospel as best I can. I'll let God sort out the rest.

[tunnug]

So, if he's a habitual liar, maybe he was lying when he said he was a strong Christian.

Oops! looks like Bubba said it better.................

[jmort]

I don't generally feel convicted telling a lie that might make someone feel good. Say they have an ugly baby and you say, the baby is looking good. Who is hurt??? Might not even be defined as a lie. To me a lie is designed to hurt and deceive others. But I get it, and see that it would be better not to tell someone their wife was hit with an ugly stick. Probably best to stay silent. But habitual lying for personal gain or to cause constant hurt to others would indicate that due to the fruit growing on that, that vine means that vine needs to be pruned.

[rl69]

I think it's posable. Depending on like Bzcraig said "your definition of strong " I think a man could be growing in Christ ,witnessing to others, and God working on him in different parts of his life. I also believe like you and the others he will start to fill the pain of his lies in Gods time

[USMC87]

Let your yes be yes and no be no.

[Wayne Smith]

Read 1 John. It is the focus of his discussion, not just lying, but continued sin.

[Hogtamer]

I have a terminal personality disorder and even know its name - SIN! It was on display vividly one day at work last week as I "flung a fit" because things didn't go to suit me. I was rude, ugly, thoughtless, prideful, dishonored God, spoiled my testimony and was hurtful to others. I've been a Christian for a long time, too. In the end it is a reminder that my own righteousness is as filthy rags, that without repentance and forgiveness from Almighty God I am nothing. I am thankful that God's mercy is new every morning and by His love alone I am not consumed. But as a Christian God's Spirit informs me that a big part of that repentance will be asking forgiveness from those I offended. The fact that it seems a hard thing to do highlights the very sin of which I am chief, an ugly and misplaced pride, a thorn in my flesh until I am horizontal before the church and fully conformed to the image of my Savior Jesus Christ.

[Boaz]

Walked in the front door at church several years ago headed for the senior bible study . Heard screaming and crying . Went down the hall and opened the door to a classroom were the ruckus was happening and it was mayhem ! Fighting , pushing , some just crying ! I asked the only lady in charge if I could help . She said no , that the other teacher would be there soon .

Yea , it was the pee wee group age 3-5 . Selfish , self serving sinners already ! Are we sinners ? Yes sir !

[dverna]

What jmort said.

[Blackwater]

Christ himself said, "Many will come in my name and say 'yea, yea,' but they do not know me." So without particulars, it's impossible to rationally opine on the question. And like Craig said, we need to clarify and more specifically nail down the definitions of the words in your question. This also makes it impossible to render a good, valid opinion on the matter.

However, all that being true, it's still doubtful that a truly "habitual" liar would have the Spirit in him. Personally, though, I hesitate to stand in judgment over anyone, no matter what their outward indications might be. Some are crying out for help, but all most "Christians" render to them are condemnations! We can never know all that's going on inside someone. Their professions and declarations of faith MAY be merely a vocalized wish to BE that kind of person. It gets far too complex to truly understand anyone like you describe here, so .... my better instincts are to simply not answer the question either way, except maybe in a very tentative and qualified manner, such as I have here. It's the Lord's job to judge folks. Not mine or yours. And there's a FAR too strong a tendency in many sects and groups within Christianity to stand in judgment WAY too quickly than Christ advised us to, and though we all must assess whether someone is trustworthy or not, standing in judgment over them and condemning them is something Christ himself warned us not to do.

This is a fine point, and demands very narrow meanings of the words we commonly use to express our opinions on matters like this. God knows what's in our hearts, and what we mean to say, but questions like this all too often result in arguments and even rifts, and often, it's really over a difference or shading of the meanings of the words we use. In other words, it's more over semantics than it really is over true theology.

We humans labor mightily to communicate exactly what we mean, and I doubt one of us has yet achieved that, other than fleetingly. Why else would we be so spellbound and honor our poets like we do? Just MHO, but I think it's grounded in the advice the Lord left us to go by. But it's still far from the "last word" on the matter.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Honestly, I'm not all too keen on the term "strong", in reference to being a Christian. If that's in your lexicon, then is being a weak Christian also in there? If so, what does that mean?

We all sin. Bearing false witness is a sin. We can be forgiven, but must ask for it, and most Christians believe that to receive forgiveness, that repentance is necessary. Now repentance and habitual sinning, seem to clash. I suspect a Christian who is a habitual liar needs to work through that with the Lord.

To the OP's actual question, I suspect it's not up to someone else to decide what a person can be or not be.

[onceabull]

Well Now, we did get one typical Marine answer----"Let God sort them out" !!! Onceabull

[Char-Gar]

"Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone!"

[tinhorn97062]

I appreciate all the input, and it's all very good input. I didn't post this looking for a "yes" or "no", and I'm certainly not casting any stones or passing judgement. I'm certainly in no position to do either one of those. Again, this came up in conversation with another person yesterday. The term "strong Christian" is in quotes, because that was the exact descriptive term used. Is there such a thing as a strong and a weak Christian? Frankly, I think there can be...but it's probably so low on the scale of important things, that it's not worth spending much time on.

I enjoy discussing things in an open forum like this, because it brings many different viewpoints to light- many of which I may not necessarily think about. This time is no different. I've read many points of view from ya'll and some of them flat out convicted me. And I appreciate that. Like I said- iron sharpens iron.

The discussion was with my mom, and the context was my sister. She mentioned some things and I spoke up and said that I must know a different version. That's what the "habitual liar" and "strong Christian" part of the conversation got started.

What convicted me, specifically, is the couple points made about casting the first stone and casting judgment. I realize that we're all called to judge the fruit, but we're also called to show people mercy and grace. This seems to be an area that I continually need to grow in- showing people mercy and grace. Maybe if I was in different shoes, I'd make the same choices...or worse.

Hopefully nobody got offended, and hopefully others found some encouragement through this too.

[Boaz]

Don't think so tinhorn , just voicing thoughts .

I didn't think about it till today but I have been lying a bit lately . I see a woman in the final stage of Alzheimer's nearly every day . It is Beck's mom , she has been in a nursing home for about 5 years . She can no longer read , feed herself , bath alone , she can't make a lot of sense talking though she tries .

When I visit many time I say that we will go fishing later or that we might go out and eat tomorrow . She gets excited and really tries to talk ..it makes her happy for a min . But it's forgotten immediately . She really did like to fish !

She will never leave the rest home , I can't even take her out in a wheelchair now . So I have been lying to offer her a few seconds of happiness at times . I have thought about the lies myself ?

[Ickisrulz]

Paul made appraisals of Christians who were "weak in their faith" and "carnal." St. John talked about Christians who were leaders because of their strong faith. So there is a distinction in the NT between Christians and their level of faith and conduct. It is a real thing.

Paul expected those within the Church to confront misconduct. Jesus expected his followers to help others remove sin from their lives--without becoming judgemental. The 1st Century Church did not "live and let live." They knew that sin hurts the sinner and everyone they had contact with. Therefore, it must be stopped in a proactive, balanced and loving manner.

The Apostle John said a believer could not live a life dedicated to sin and still be a Christian. But believers will sin and be forgiven. Salvation should bring about a change in conduct; sometimes slow.

Putting this all together I understand that Christians will sin and they are still saved. But sin should not be ignored. I would not call someone who lies all the time a "strong believer." The person's knowledge and belief might be great. But their Christian conduct is lacking.

[Blackwater]

Great point, Ick. And Tinhorn, I think it's our wills that are weak, not our Faith. Even those who believe are sorely tempted at times. Satan would rather tempt one Christian than a dozen who are already in his fold. Faith gives us motivation not to err. But as long as we wear these fleshly bodies, we'll be subject to temptation. Remember, even Christ was tempted out in the wilderness by the Evil One. Satan promised Him all sorts of things. But our Lord stood steadfast, and that's the ultimate role model for all of us, even yet today.

I know some theologically have said it's "impossible" for a true believer to "sin." But it doesn't take much reading to find where the apostles and even Christ himself advised us to be wary of sin, even after we come to Faith. So I think this is another one of those statements where semantics and defining what we mean by "sin" and "temptation" are what separates folks who need not be separated from each other by simply misunderstanding what each is really meaning by what they say.

Truly, Satan is at work trying to "divide and conquer" we believers! We can't let him do that! We just CAN'T!

[buckwheatpaul]

I have always said a 1/2 truth is a lie...National security might be ok.....but the trouble for me is the word "habitual" I'm not judging ....but I would say no to that question.

[Wayne Smith]

Nobody yet has pointed out that, in this case, we as Christians have a positive duty to come along side the liar and point out his sin. How he responds to this intervention is important.

[Ickisrulz]

Nobody yet has pointed out that, in this case, we as Christians have a positive duty to come along side the liar and point out his sin. How he responds to this intervention is important.

Post 22.

"Paul expected those within the Church to confront misconduct. Jesus expected his followers to help others remove sin from their lives--without becoming judgemental. The 1st Century Church did not "live and let live." They knew that sin hurts the sinner and everyone they had contact with. Therefore, it must be stopped in a proactive, balanced and loving manner."

[Blackwater]

Amen! But most have confused PC theology with Christian theology, and have incorporated much PC theology into their "faith." But if Christ didn't condone it, it's not Christian, really. Today, I fear one of most Christians' failings is that we don't confront the habitual sinners among our ranks of believers. It's not PC to do what Christ wanted, so .... we do what's PC and "socially acceptable" rather than what Christ taught us to do. And as a result, many keep walking a path that is NOT conducive to either their edification or their satisfaction, and maybe (I leave this judgment up to the Lord) their very salvation at Judgment.

All I know for sure is that honesty works where PC theology doesn't. And when confronting one such as is the point of discussion here, it needs to be done with real and legitimate concern for them, and NOT in a "judgmental" fashion, as we so often tend to see in some areas. There's a Christian way to do it, and a not-so-Christian way to do it.

I can't help but wonder how Christ will judge us at the Throne of Judgment, when we've allowed heretical precepts created by man, to intermingle with the perfect instruction and advice He left for us. It's a full time job trying to keep things swept up around my own front door steps, so I have no great inclination to go to others and confront them, but I HAVE done it on occasion. I have yet to have it spoil a relationship, but .... in today's PC environment, who knows what might happen? But if they react thusly, they really weren't much of a friend anyway, were they? And it may well be better to find that out in that manner, rather than later, when much more might be at stake. There's an old truism that says that you never really KNOW who's your true friend until you get in trouble, and ask for help. Your true friends will help. Some you thought were your friends will find all sorts of excuses for "staying out of it." Most of us have very few friends - the kind that'll come to your aid even at the risk of losing something themselves. I'm lucky enough to have a bit over a dozen true friends. And I consider myself truly and richly blessed for that.

Christ never instructed us to tell folks what they WANT to hear. PC theology does that, not Christ. It's hard to confront someone, and it's advisable to do some thinking about what you want and need to say, and how to keep it as short as possible and yet still be effective. But it can pay big dividends for the person who needs to be confronted. I think at the Throne of Judgment, we may well be confronted with all the times we did noting, and SHOULD have acted. I know I've held my tongue sometimes when I should have spoken up. I've also erred in the reverse manner as well. But my heart's always in the right place, or at least almost always is.

If we are truly brothers and sisters, then why aren't we more willing to let them know what we really think? Don't they matter to us? Big questions, and very hard to deal with. But .... worse if we don't. And too, if we approach the person with Christian love in our hearts, and a caring attitude, any displeasure they may feel at the moment will likely be easily forgotten later on.

And one more thing, we tend to expect instant results these days for any of our efforts. But sometimes, once we've said our piece, we need to just walk away and let what we've said "percolate" for a while. That doesn't yield instant gratification, but it just might make a significant difference in a bit of time. When I state things like this, I can't help but think of that passage, "Oh ye of little faith!" The times we live in may be "modern," but the principles we have to live by have never changed since Christ gave them to us. And really, isn't it comforting to have a standard to go by that'll never change? Is our God a loving and wonderful God, or what?

[sharps4590]

Isn't the question a fine kettle of fish. When I hear or read a question like that the first thing I want to do is go look in a mirror. Not literally but assuredly to look deep inside me....and that scares me.

Maturing as a Christian is a journey...though it does have destination. The more mature we become the more we are attentive to the Holy Spirit. I guess we all either have or have had habitual sins we knew better than to keep committing but didn't want to lay them at the foot of the Cross and leave them there. I know I certainly have. Some I've been able to leave there and others I go back and pick up occasionally, some daily....and I can feel the Spirit leaning on me when I do. Perhaps that's the way it is with this person? They're growing, maturing as a Christian and learning to submit, feeling the weight of the Holy Spirit...to leave that rotten, stinking carcass at the foot of the Cross. It often doesn't happen overnight but over time. If such isn't the case and they're just going through the motions of being a Christian then I don't know how they can be a "strong Christian".

[Boaz]

A strong Christian is constantly searching for his own failings not those of others . We are to help others but are responsible only for ourselves . Through failings we learn and correct those failings to increase our relationship with GOD .

[Wayne Smith]

A strong Christian is constantly searching for his own failings not those of others . We are to help others but are responsible only for ourselves . Through failings we learn and correct those failings to increase our relationship with GOD .

Yup. Take out the log in your own eye before you judge another. Doesn't say "Don't judge" as many want it to. It says be aware of your own sinful nature and tendencies (favorite sins) and judge others carefully and in humility. It's not saying "I'm better than you, you better be as good as I am". It is saying "you are breaking God's law and need to know this" even as we are aware of how often we do the same thing.

[Blackwater]

Sharps, you're right. I've seen some come to faith, and then, when God didn't reach down His mighty hand and make this world a veritable "Garden of Eden" for them, they more or less concluded, "Well, that didn't work! Things are still as messed up as before, so what's the use of it?" I kind'a doubt folks like this really had a real conversion experience. Maybe they just felt the call, and casually (but holding on to their disbelief even then) stepped forward, sort of like a kid sticking his toe in the pool before jumping in??? When Christ enters your heart, it'll simply change you in a way that defies "going back." But defiance isn't prevention, and indeed, some believers DO go back and pick up some old habits or ways. But once they've come to light, they can never enjoy them with the abandon they once knew. So .... it really is true, that our Lord changes us, and the change is substantial and irreversible.

Is our God a loving and wonderful God or what?

[Wayne Smith]

Consider the parable of the sower and the seed. Only the seed that falls in the good soil grows and produces. Christ said that many will come to him saying "I cast out demons in your name" but he does not recognize them. These are people who think they are followers but are so self focused that they cannot see God.

[KenH]

Hey ya'll - I think you have to stop and think about the effects of a "lie" or untruth told. A "little white lie" saying, "Oh what a pretty baby" is not what we're talking about when referring to a "lie". When I think of a habitual liar I tend to think of somebody who is always telling tales for "grandizing themself" (is that "grandizing" a word?) as in "my fish was bigger than your fish" type of thing. OR - telling something to cause pain to somebody else. Even those two are of a different sort of lie. One is to make oneself feel better, bigger.... while the other is to hurt somebody else, which certainly is NOT Christian like.

Like most things in life, a lie isn't totally good or bad. (see how PC I am? I first wrote "black or white", then changed to good or bad).

Ken H>

[KenH]

Ooops - Sorry folks, I didn't mean to be a thread killer. Seems like the thread was going strong, then I chimed in and thread died?

[Blackwater]

Nah, Ken, these threads have a way of waning out of their own. Few of us have had the simple TIME in most of our lives to address many interesting questions. So .... with so many of us now older and retired, we DO have the time, and we have lost much of that ego that once made us obstinate, and thus, we don't really mind embarassing ourselves so much, and we'll wade in and state our thoughts, often, as much or more to see if they'll float or not, as to really state our thoughts at the time. It's how we learn. And if we hadn't had those egos and other things earlier in life, that so inhibit our real ability and willingness to truly learn more deeply, we'd have learned a lot earlier in our lives.

But .... we take what we have and use it as we feel the opportunity and motivation. "Better late than never!"