Missouri Bullet 44 Magnum 200 Grain - leading with 9 grains of Unique

[mmesa005]

I have read in numerous forums that 9 grains of Unique is a good load for the 200 grain cast bullet used in the 44 Magnum. I purchased several boxes from Missouri Bullet Company as they are listed for 44 Magnum and are cast at 18 Brinel. With 9 grains of Unique the barrel of my S&W 29 with 6" barrel leaded quite heavily.

I also purchased their 240 grain Keith bullets to load for my model 29.

Any help appreciated!

Steven

[Thumbcocker]

Insufficient data. Size of boolits? Size of cylinder throats, size of bore? You might try tumbling lubing the store bought boolits in JPW to see if it helps. Store bought boolits are usually too hard, too small, and poorly lubed. We need specifics.

[Bzcraig]

Insufficient data. Size of boolits? Size of cylinder throats, size of bore? You might try tumbling lubing the store bought boolits in JPW to see if it helps. Store bought boolits are usually too hard, too small, and poorly lubed. We need specifics.

Exactly......more often than not it's a boolit fit problem.

[bns454]

Yup,too small,to hard.Both my 29s need .432 diameter to shoot well.

[DougGuy]

Try and push one of the boolits into the cylinder throats from the front. If it won't go, there is part of the problem. To work well with cast, a cast boolit needs to be .001" to .002" greater than groove diameter. To insure this boolit is delivered to the bore larger than the groove diameter, the cylinder throats need to be .0005" to .001" greater than boolit diameter. This arrangement works very well in a revolver.

Your S&W likely has 5 lands and grooves so it's more difficult to slug than a barrel with 6 lands and grooves but suffice it to say that groove diameter is .429" ~ .430" and either a .431" or .432" boolit will work great.

Once you have figured out if the cylinder needs throat reaming, you may have part of the answer as to why it is leading. Likely the throats are small and will not let you pass a .431" into the front of the throats so the cylinder at this point is functioning as a multi-port sizing die and now you got undersize boolits going into the barrel, too small to make a good seal, and burning powder gases escaping along the sides pretty much welding the lead into the barrel as you shoot.

The other side of this issue, is using hardcast commercial boolits with commercial hard lube. You would have much better results with an alloy of 50/50+2% (clip on wheel weight + pure lead + tin) and soft lube. Montana Bullet Works sells a softer alloy and softer lube than your Missouri bullets, you could give them a try if you don't cast your own. I think you would be much better off with softer boolits and softer lube but the biggest improvement will come in getting the cylinder throats sized correctly for cast boolits.

[bns454]

+1 on the Montana Boolits,I tried those and they are a fine product esp. if your not casting yourself yet.

[kungfustyle]

Missouri Bullets are good stuff. But, like others have said you need to check for fit. If they are too small you could powder coat them and size them up about .002 that should help if too small. Slug the bbl and the chambers and know what your dealing with. There is a member here that rents the chamber reamer for a 357. I had to borrow it and shave some off of my smith cylinders. Now the gun shoots like a champ and no lead.

[DougGuy]

Let me see if I can address multiple parts of this post without being argumentative or insulting...


If they are too small you could powder coat them and size them up about .002 that should help if too small.

Only to have the cylinder throats downsize them upon firing? Doesn't matter WHAT you size to when you assemble the ammo, the boolit will come through the cylinder throats, at throat diameter.



Slug the bbl and the chambers and know what your dealing with.

The gun is a model 29. It has 5 lands and grooves, unless you have a 110 degree vee block and a good dial indicator, or a comparator, miking a slug from one of these barrels at the kitchen table with a pr of calipers will provide you with nothing but inaccurate information.

However.. OP could use a #6 fishing sinker from Walmart, drive it through the barrel, then take this engraved slug and SEE if it will then go into the cylinder throats after passing through the barrel. That would tell him immediately if the throats are indeed smaller than the groove diameter of the barrel. He could do all of this without ONE single tool other than a hammer and a suitable aluminum or brass rod to drive the slug with.


There is a member here that rents the chamber reamer for a 357. I had to borrow it and shave some off of my smith cylinders. Now the gun shoots like a champ and no lead.

Again, the gun is a model 29, in 44 magnum caliber. I don't think a 357 reamer is going to do him much good. I have been reaming cylinders and barrels as a convenience to members of this forum for a number of years and I know of no one who rents a throating reamer. Not that I know everything, but I would have heard of or read posts about this by now it would seem.

[Larry Gibson]

mmesa005

Your leading problem is primarily from the hard wax lube not doing it's job. You have the bullets already so lets make them work. Get a bottle of Lee Liquid Alox. Follow the application directions using 2 light coats. Let dry thoroughly between coats and before loading. Obviously no need to size.

Try again both bullets now lubed with LLA over your 9 gr Unique load. I have shot thousands of commercial cast 44s (.429 & .430 sized) relubed this way out of several 44s. Where the bullets gave heavy leading before after lubing with LLA they gave minimal leading if any at all.

Larry Gibson

[Dan Cash]

Yup,too small,to hard.Both my 29s need .432 diameter to shoot well.

I too, have a pair of early M29, a 4 and a 6 inch. Both thrive on 20:1 alloy and .432-,433 diameter. 19 grains of 2400 under a 240 grain bullet is deadly accurate.

[mmesa005]

Thanks for all the great replies and advice! Unfortunately I don't have the appropriate measuring tools to determine the cylinder and barrel diameter. I will try to Alox them and see what results I obtain? I do know that the bullets are .430 as that is the size available for all of their 44 Special/Magnum bullet offerings. All are 18 Brinel hardness.

[Bzcraig]

Thanks for all the great replies and advice! Unfortunately I don't have the appropriate measuring tools to determine the cylinder and barrel diameter. I will try to Alox them and see what results I obtain? I do know that the bullets are .430 as that is the size available for all of their 44 Special/Magnum bullet offerings. All are 18 Brinel hardness.

Please reread post #8

[reddog81]

Do the bullets drop right through the cylinder without resistance? If so I'd try large and softer bullets.

[bluejay75]

MBC makes good bullets, but will only do custom sizes in lots of 100 pounds. Try Bayou Bullets coated .431.

[mmesa005]

196769

I have been dealing with a bit of a dental emergency that will result in an extraction next week, thus my late reply to the thread. :sad:

As you can see from the photo the bullets do not pass through any of the cylinders.

Another member has generously reached out to me with some .431 sized bullets to try. I will also coat some of what I have with Alox and see how that goes. I probably wont make it back to the range until next week. l update the thread with the results.

Thanks again!

[DougGuy]

Your cylinder is acting as a multi port sizing die at this point. Pretty typical really, they are made for shooting factory j words which are .429" and .430" at the largest.

To shoot cast effectively, the boolit needs to be .001" to .002" larger than groove diameter of the bore which a .431" or .432" would easily accomplish, your barrel has 5 lands and grooves which makes it hard to mic a slug without a special V block or a comparator, but suffice it to say it is not larger than .430" so either one of the cast boolit diameters I suggested would work, then the cylinder throats need to be .0005" to .001" larger than boolit diameter so as to not size the boolit down upon firing, which is what's going on now.

I would suggest reaming cylinder throats to .4315"~.4318" and having them all within .0002" of each other would then allow you to use .431" boolits and would actually present them to the bore at advertised diameter, not throat diameter which in this case is currently not large enough to overcome the root cause of the problem, that being poor boolit fitment in the bore.

When you get your .431" samples, see if they will go into the cylinder throats with finger pressure.

[Hickok]

My older M29 has .433" throats.

My newer M629 had very tight throats @ .4285". I sent this cylinder to the throat doctor, Doug, and he made it right. Doug knows his stuff.

[mmesa005]

Sorry for the delay of reporting back to the group regarding latest results of shooting 200 grain cast with 9 grains of Unique. After having dental surgery I needed to take several days off to recoup. After that I reloaded the 200 grain cast and tumbled them with liquid X-Lox. No leading after shooting a box of 100!

Forum member "Thumbcocker" was kind enough to send me some of his 240 grain beauties. Unfortunately I will have to try them at my next range trip as I failed to grab the box with those reloads :( As I am traveling on business next week I will have to report back on those in @ 1.5 - 2 weeks.

Steven

[Larry Gibson]

"I reloaded the 200 grain cast and tumbled them with liquid X-Lox. No leading after shooting a box of 100!"

Excellent. Not a matter of fit.....simply a matter the commercial hard wax lubes are nice for shipping but fail in the shooting......

Recently a member send me around 300 commercial cast .41 cal SWCs. They were of a typical mama casting mould design, were sized .410 and were lubed with a blue hard wax lube. They very well could have been Missouri bullets given where they were sent from.

I loaded 50 as I got them. The rest I TL's with a light coat of LLA and let dry thoroughly. All were loaded over 8.5 gr Unique. Day before yesterday I had a chance to shoot them. I shot the "as is" 50 rounds first. I was shooting them out of my Ruger Bisley which has a Burris Fast Fire II on it. I was shooting coke cans at 75 yards using Primo shooting sticks as a rest. The 1st couple cylinders I was dancing the cans pretty good. On the third cylinder full I could tell accuracy was going south but I finished shooting all 50 anyway. The barrel was leaded from forcing cone to muzzle. I had my range kit with me so I cleaned the barrel.....thank goodness I keep my Lewis Lead Remover in the kit.

Once the revolver was cleaned I proceeded to shoot the bullets that had been TL'd with LLA. I shot 50 of those also with accuracy being as good with the last cylinder full as with the first. I really tore up those cans! After the 50 of those rounds there appeared to be slight leading just in front of the forcing cone. However two Hoppe's soaked patches took it right out and I could not see any lead on the patches. I think it was just normal fouling. Just another example of how to prevent leading when using commercial cast. A little bit of LLA or the X-lox the OP used goes a long ways and makes the shooting of commercial cast a "pleasure".

Larry Gibson

[Wayne Smith]

Oh, Larry, I couldn't stop laughing. You dropped the 'g' in Magma and ended up with "mama casting" and somehow it just fits!

[Larry Gibson]

Doh......[smilie=l:

Larry Gibson

[waco]

Your cylinder is acting as a multi port sizing die at this point. Pretty typical really, they are made for shooting factory j words which are .429" and .430" at the largest.

To shoot cast effectively, the boolit needs to be .001" to .002" larger than groove diameter of the bore which a .431" or .432" would easily accomplish, your barrel has 5 lands and grooves which makes it hard to mic a slug without a special V block or a comparator, but suffice it to say it is not larger than .430" so either one of the cast boolit diameters I suggested would work, then the cylinder throats need to be .0005" to .001" larger than boolit diameter so as to not size the boolit down upon firing, which is what's going on now.

I would suggest reaming cylinder throats to .4315"~.4318" and having them all within .0002" of each other would then allow you to use .431" boolits and would actually present them to the bore at advertised diameter, not throat diameter which in this case is currently not large enough to overcome the root cause of the problem, that being poor boolit fitment in the bore.

When you get your .431" samples, see if they will go into the cylinder throats with finger pressure.
So what is the best way to address thread choke in a 29-5?

[mmesa005]

Sorry for the delay of reporting back to the group regarding latest results of shooting 200 grain cast with 9 grains of Unique. After having dental surgery I needed to take several days off to recoup. After that I reloaded the 200 grain cast and tumbled them with liquid X-Lox. No leading after shooting a box of 100!

Forum member "Thumbcocker" was kind enough to send me some of his 240 grain beauties. Unfortunately I will have to try them at my next range trip as I failed to grab the box with those reloads :( As I am traveling on business next week I will have to report back on those in @ 1.5 - 2 weeks.

Steven

I finally made it to the range today. I fired several rounds of Missouri 200 grain tumble lubed in alox. Zero leading, very good accuracy. Tried the 240's provided by Thumbcocker and unfortunately got leading almost immediately😑

Thanks again for all the help and especially to Thumbcocker for sending me the 240's.

[Thumbcocker]

Darn. Sorry they didn't work for you. For those interested H&G 504 clone sized .431 in a Star and lubed with Ben's Red.

[Uncle Dave]

For What It's Worth - The throats on a S&W original model 29 I just measured recently were all at .431-.4315. Research on this site has me less worried about bore size and more about throats and maximizing on the fit there. No issues so far with factory ammo. Testing of appropriate sized rounds will be my true test. I'm going to try HTC route on pistol and PC on rifle. Have yet to drop a CB yet but first molds - MP - shipped today. :) Awesome info on here and plenty more for me to learn.