Ramping up for a new caliber

[marlinman93]

Picked up another Ballard rifle, and it is a HM Pope Ballard with 3 barrels in a cased outfit. Two calibers are easy, and common; the .32-40, and .22WCF. The last is an unknown. Pope made his own .28 called the .28-30 Pope, which was the .38 Extra Long necked down to .28 caliber. But this Pope is the only known done on a .25-35 Win. case! It's referred to as a .28-35, but that's just a guess.
Two old Win. 1882 and 1884 loading tools came with it, but nothing except a chamber cast for the .28 barrel!

http://i.imgur.com/Wva7Nvxl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/kovUUiXl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/f0f1f2al.jpg

So today I got out some .25-35 brass to see if I could easily make them, and avoid buying expensive die sets! I started with my old Lyman M dies and a .264" expander. Sprayed it with case lube and it ran in easily. Then stepped up to the .277" expander, and finally the .284" expander.
After that I got my 7x57 Mauser dies out, and ran the cases into the sizing die to size them down to the correct outside diameter. Now I need to slug the bore, and see what that is. Then figure out the twist rate on the front and rear parts of the bore. It's a typical Pope gain twist barrel, so need to check the entire length to determine starting and ending twist rate.
But the completed brass fit in with just finger pressure and light resistance. Fire forming will tell the difference, and after that I'll simply neck size. I can use the 7x57 dies from here on as the larger body will not touch the rest of the case.

[OlDeuce]

Picked up another Ballard rifle, and it is a HM Pope Ballard with 3 barrels in a cased outfit. Two calibers are easy, and common; the .32-40, and .22WCF. The last is an unknown. Pope made his own .28 called the .28-30 Pope, which was the .38 Extra Long necked down to .28 caliber. But this Pope is the only known done on a .25-35 Win. case! It's referred to as a .28-35, but that's just a guess.
Two old Win. 1882 and 1884 loading tools came with it, but nothing except a chamber cast for the .28 barrel!

http://i.imgur.com/Wva7Nvxl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/kovUUiXl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/f0f1f2al.jpg

So today I got out some .25-35 brass to see if I could easily make them, and avoid buying expensive die sets! I started with my old Lyman M dies and a .264" expander. Sprayed it with case lube and it ran in easily. Then stepped up to the .277" expander, and finally the .284" expander.
After that I got my 7x57 Mauser dies out, and ran the cases into the sizing die to size them down to the correct outside diameter. Now I need to slug the bore, and see what that is. Then figure out the twist rate on the front and rear parts of the bore. It's a typical Pope gain twist barrel, so need to check the entire length to determine starting and ending twist rate.
But the completed brass fit in with just finger pressure and light resistance. Fire forming will tell the difference, and after that I'll simply neck size. I can use the 7x57 dies from here on as the larger body will not touch the rest of the case.

Marlinman.....what a nice buy!!! and a set no less .....Way cool stuff Ol Deuce

[marlinman93]

Thanks Ol Deuce! I'm in love with it, and it quickly shoot to the top of my favorite rifle list! Almost finished getting provenance on past owners. I got it a week ago, and have chain of ownership since Pope built it in 1898. Just need a last name for the gentleman who had it since 1975.

[ascast]

Very nice indeed! I wish I could...... Is the Pope luber made by him? and how so marked? What are the "T" wrenches for?

[Texas by God]

Exscuisite. I love the fact that you are shooting it; not keeping it locked up in that fancy case.
Best of luck to you.

[725]

Wow. What a joy. Eager to hear bout your efforts.

[Jack Stanley]

Very interesting set , ought to be fun to make it work again huh?

Jack

[marlinman93]

Very nice indeed! I wish I could...... Is the Pope luber made by him? and how so marked? What are the "T" wrenches for?

The Pope style lube pump is a clone made by Barry Darr. Also a very highly respected barrel and mold maker in our time. It is marked "B Darr" to keep the bad guys from passing it off as a real Pope. But Barry told me he cast the bodies off an original Pope pump loaned to him by Claude Roderick.
The T handles are screwed into the pump to compress the lube.

[marlinman93]

Exscuisite. I love the fact that you are shooting it; not keeping it locked up in that fancy case.
Best of luck to you.

Yes, I shoot all my old guns, but with care. I have targets that came with the set, and want to use the load data on them to attempt to reproduce the tight groups those targets have! Some previous owner could really shoot!

Picked up two other gorgeous Ballard rifles, and a pair of Rolling Block Sporting Rifles. But they will have to gather dust in the safe for awhile, as the Pope set has my full attention presently!

[OlDeuce]

Yes, I shoot all my old guns, but with care. I have targets that came with the set, and want to use the load data on them to attempt to reproduce the tight groups those targets have! Some previous owner could really shoot!

Picked up two other gorgeous Ballard rifles, and a pair of Rolling Block Sporting Rifles. But they will have to gather dust in the safe for awhile, as the Pope set has my full attention presently!

I know how that comes tobe LoL............Out of all the winchesters I've owned the only one that has NOT been fired is my Hi-grade 94 ......and that might
not be true in the near future LoL Ol Deuce

[marlinman93]

I know how that comes tobe LoL............Out of all the winchesters I've owned the only one that has NOT been fired is my Hi-grade 94 ......and that might
not be true in the near future LoL Ol Deuce

I don't own any guns that likely haven't been fired a fair amount by previous owners. So my shooting them is certainly not going to be the first shots downrange! But I do limit some rare or very special guns to special care, and limited shooting. They've survived 130-140 years, and deserve to last that many more!
This Pope Ballard is a 3 digit serial number, so dates to 1875. Pope did his barrel work on it in 1898, so it's got a lot of years behind, with owners who appreciated it, but shot it too! Imagine it was 23 years old when it went to Pope!

[marlinman93]

These two others I got in Denver will be a piece of cake to work up loads for!
This one is .32-20, and I have lots of good cast bullet loads with Unique for that caliber!

http://i.imgur.com/KYC0y6Hl.jpg

This one is .22LR, so scope or sight settings are all it will need!

http://i.imgur.com/Edsq9dzl.jpg

[OlDeuce]

I don't own any guns that likely haven't been fired a fair amount by previous owners. So my shooting them is certainly not going to be the first shots downrange! But I do limit some rare or very special guns to special care, and limited shooting. They've survived 130-140 years, and deserve to last that many more!
This Pope Ballard is a 3 digit serial number, so dates to 1875. Pope did his barrel work on it in 1898, so it's got a lot of years behind, with owners who appreciated it, but shot it too! Imagine it was 23 years old when it went to Pope!

The Numbers WoW.......I do have one and It's Ser.# 13......... yes 13 I couldn't believe what I had bought ! Sadly there is no MFG.marks on the gun and is in excellent shape action is tight, bore's shinny.the wood is carver Maple leaves & acorns ..To my eyes and others that have viewed it .They call
it a salesman sample ... tome it looks like Marlin in the wood ??????but its only a guess
Marlinman ........Your Ballards are Beautiful ......Ol Deuce

[Artful]

Outstanding find and pictures - thanks for posting

[marlinman93]

The Numbers WoW.......I do have one and It's Ser.# 13......... yes 13 I couldn't believe what I had bought ! Sadly there is no MFG.marks on the gun and is in excellent shape action is tight, bore's shinny.the wood is carver Maple leaves & acorns ..To my eyes and others that have viewed it .They call
it a salesman sample ... tome it looks like Marlin in the wood ??????but its only a guess
Marlinman ........Your Ballards are Beautiful ......Ol Deuce

Not sure about a salesman's sample, as there would be no reason to not serial number a salesman's sample back then. Often salesmen ended up letting their sample go to a dealer at some point after the factory sent them another gun, so a serial number would be done. Plus the serial numbers were done before the final finish, as Marlin used serial numbers to keep all the hand fitted parts together for assembly. Serial numbers couldn't be applied after casehardening, so they were done early on in the process.
It's possible the marks were removed by an old refinish. That's the case with my Pope Ballard, and there's no sign of refinishing, but I'm guessing it was done in 1898, when the barrel and stocks were changed. 119 years later there's no way to know what was done in 1898.
A picture might help determine if it's a Marlin or Brown Ballard. I have an early JM Marlin assembled from Brown Mfg. parts, and they look identical, except for the extractor system. Mine is also marked JM Marlin, but has the Brown lever, frame pin, deep crescent buttplate, hammer, and trigger of a Brown.

[Bent Ramrod]

Marlinman93,

Is that spigot on the front of the action of your Pope-Ballard Harry Pope's patented quick-change barrel attachment? Never saw one in real life before, just the drawings.

He also fitted the breechblock with a rim-or-center firing pin housing that could be turned with a two-pin spanner and locked with a set screw.

U.S. 384,277, June 12, 1888.

[marlinman93]

Marlinman93,

Is that spigot on the front of the action of your Pope-Ballard Harry Pope's patented quick-change barrel attachment? Never saw one in real life before, just the drawings.

He also fitted the breechblock with a rim-or-center firing pin housing that could be turned with a two-pin spanner and locked with a set screw.

U.S. 384,277, June 12, 1888.

Not sure, but guessing it is a Pope patented item. I have a friend who owned a Pope Ballard with a single barrel, and had the same takedown system mine has. His was sold at Amoskeag Auctions in Nov. 2015. But I had looked it over closely before that time, and it was the same as mine.
Here's a picture of his Pope with the same system:

https://image.invaluable.com/housePhotos/Amoskeag/34/576634/H1193-L83169712.jpg

But both of ours use the standard firing pin. I'd guess because neither had a spare RF barrel.

[blackbahart]

nice/beautiful cased set .Is it a marlin ballard?We don't find treasures like that up here

[marlinman93]

nice/beautiful cased set .Is it a marlin ballard?We don't find treasures like that up here

Thanks! Yes, it was built on a first year 1875 JM Marlin Ballard #5xx. A forged receiver #6 Schuetzen I would guess from the pistol grip receiver, and ball and spur lever.
We don't find these around Oregon either! Had to attend a big show like Denver to see great stuff show up!

I did buy the two volume Hartford Pope books at Denver, after buying the set. In the last pages of Vol. 2 on p.494-495, I found the patent drawing and description of Pope's takedown system, which was granted a patent in 1888.
Had several guys (including some experts) tell me the takedown system wasn't Pope's. But seeing the drawings, it's clearly the identical setup this set has on it, so it would seem it is indeed HM Pope's system.

[Reverend Al]

Those are all beautiful works of art, but I'm glad you will still be shooting them!

[marlinman93]

Thanks Al! The two restored Ballards will get shot a lot! The Pope set a little, but carefully!

[Bigslug]

Well. . .seeing as how some clown named Pope destroyed any collectibility along with that poor Ballard's originality, I'm afraid I can only offer you $200, and that much only because you're such an upstanding member of our community.:mrgreen:

I'm just gonna sit here and drool for a few minutes. . .

[marlinman93]

Well. . .seeing as how some clown named Pope destroyed any collectibility along with that poor Ballard's originality, I'm afraid I can only offer you $200, and that much only because you're such an upstanding member of our community.:mrgreen:

I'm just gonna sit here and drool for a few minutes. . .

Many years ago I had a debate with a guy about how original Ballard rifles were more valuable than modified. I asked if this meant even rifles customized by the famous makers like Pope, Schoyen, Schalk, Zischang, etc., and he said even those makers weren't as valuable. I felt his reasoning was foolish, but left it at that.
I've always loved the guns by custom makers of note, and even some of those who are more recent, and do very similar work! I love these custom schuetzen rifles the most, even over nice originals in my collection.
But I'll contemplate your generous offer for this messed up Ballard, and let you know! ;)

[Bigslug]

Many years ago I had a debate with a guy about how original Ballard rifles were more valuable than modified. I asked if this meant even rifles customized by the famous makers like Pope, Schoyen, Schalk, Zischang, etc., and he said even those makers weren't as valuable. I felt his reasoning was foolish, but left it at that.

The older things get, the more we feel the history behind them, and wish they made it through time unscathed, but the way I'm coming to look at Ballards is that they were the Remington 700 of their day. That's not an exact parallel because the Marlin Ballard was intended to be a pretty high end product out of the box, where the 700 was balancing practical value against Winchester-toppling production cost, but both actions are outstanding engines with which to drive toward better things. I wonder if that same guy you talked to would turn down a Unertl-topped U.S.M.C. M40 because it wasn't the original Wal Mart 700 ADL synthetic / Bushnell Sportview / Weaver rings package deal anymore.

[45workhorse]

You ought to be ashamed of yourself-----putting gun porn on a family sight. My son almost CAUGHT me-----drooling on the key board.:kidding:

Thank you for posting, one day I may own one..

[marlinman93]

The older things get, the more we feel the history behind them, and wish they made it through time unscathed, but the way I'm coming to look at Ballards is that they were the Remington 700 of their day. .

Well I might buy the theory with a Winchester, since Winchester was the most sold gun of that period, and also a great gun for a reasonable price. Being cheaper than most other big makers made Winchesters so popular. An entry level Ballard cost more than a pretty high end Winchester. Specialty Marlin Ballards could go for $60-$100 and even more for some!

[marlinman93]

You ought to be ashamed of yourself-----putting gun porn on a family sight. My son almost CAUGHT me-----drooling on the key board.:kidding:

Thank you for posting, one day I may own one..

I started out buying Marlins and Ballards when they were pretty cheap! I think my first Ballard cost me $250, and was a pretty decent gun.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
What a beautiful set to be entrusted with ! I trust you will have many years of fine shooting enjoyment with this 3 barreled Ballard.
Thank you for these excellent photos !
Mike in Peru

[sharps4590]

Stunning, simply stunning. Well done sir! Excellent work on forming the case also.

[marlinman93]

Thanks guys!

[shafer44]

Man, those are really fine looking rifles. I am envious that I do not know gunsmithing the way a lot of you guys here on CB do. I can fix iphones, I can weld, have plasma cutter and lots of other toys and guns, but doing all this stuff to these guns to get them back out there and shooting is a really fantastic accomplishment!! In my next life, I want to be a gunsmith and machinist.. Great rifles!!

[marlinman93]

Man, those are really fine looking rifles. I am envious that I do not know gunsmithing the way a lot of you guys here on CB do. I can fix iphones, I can weld, have plasma cutter and lots of other toys and guns, but doing all this stuff to these guns to get them back out there and shooting is a really fantastic accomplishment!! In my next life, I want to be a gunsmith and machinist.. Great rifles!!

Thanks! I wish I was a trained machinist also! I can do almost all the work needed on my old guns, but I have a cheap Chinese lathe and mill, and even if I had the skills, they are too inaccurate to work with. I use them more for simple tasks, and even inlet forearm wood on them. I send my barrels and actions out to be fitted together. Then I remove them, and do all the polishing and stock work on my builds. Fortunately these latest projects need no work, so that's a great savings of time and money!
I did also pick up two Rolling Block Sporting Rifles in .44 Long CF 1871, and a later Sporter half octagon in .40-50 SS. The .44 Long needs a firing pin, and firing pin screw, but that's a pretty easy fix! Both have great bores, so will be shooting them too. Already set up for the .44 Long, but need dies and have to build cases from .30 Krag for the .40-50 SS.

.40-50 SS:
http://i.imgur.com/R9kC286l.jpg

.44 Long CF:
http://i.imgur.com/tcKkbZKl.jpg

[Bigslug]

AND a pair of clean Rolling Blocks. . .

BUDDHA doesn't have the amount of good karma you seem to be sporting!

I have trouble deciding my favorite single shot mechanism, but always marvel over the elegance of the R.B.'s solution to the problem. Love shooting them.

[marlinman93]

AND a pair of clean Rolling Blocks. . .

BUDDHA doesn't have the amount of good karma you seem to be sporting!

I have trouble deciding my favorite single shot mechanism, but always marvel over the elegance of the R.B.'s solution to the problem. Love shooting them.

Like the others, the Rolling Blocks were just too cheap to pass up. Plus I'm a sucker for Rolling Block Sporting Rifles, and considering they likely made less than 12,000 I just find them so historic, and pleasant to my eyes. The .44 Long 1871 needs a firing pin and retaining screw, but other than that they're in pretty nice shape for their age.

[marlinman93]

Marlinman93,

Is that spigot on the front of the action of your Pope-Ballard Harry Pope's patented quick-change barrel attachment? Never saw one in real life before, just the drawings.

He also fitted the breechblock with a rim-or-center firing pin housing that could be turned with a two-pin spanner and locked with a set screw.

U.S. 384,277, June 12, 1888.

Here's another Pope Ballard you might find interesting BR! It sold at the Nov. 2015 Amoskeag Auction and has the same Pope takedown system on it. I personally looked at this one before it went off to auction two years ago.

https://image.invaluable.com/housePhotos/Amoskeag/34/576634/H1193-L83169712.jpg

[GARD72977]

I have been looking at Schuetzen rifles far a while. The guns that Pope barrelled are very special. That is a impressive collection you have.

A Stevens is on my short list but it wont be the quality of that set. Thanks for posting for everyone to enjoy. Keep us posted on how they shoot.

[marlinman93]

I have been looking at Schuetzen rifles far a while. The guns that Pope barrelled are very special. That is a impressive collection you have.

A Stevens is on my short list but it wont be the quality of that set. Thanks for posting for everyone to enjoy. Keep us posted on how they shoot.

Thanks! It's a very hectic summer, so I hope to find time to get the loads worked up and shoot the Pope multi barrel set! Just got back from "The Happenz" long range fun shoot, but had other guns I needed to work out loads for to take there, so the Pope didn't get any work.
Was also asked to set up my Ballard schuetzen display there, so here's a couple pictures:

http://i.imgur.com/guNFjDXl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/0xlqsvil.jpg

[OlDeuce]

I'll take one of Each !!! LoL Marlinman You have a Collection My Friend!!!

Ol Deuce

[marlinman93]

I'll take one of Each !!! LoL Marlinman You have a Collection My Friend!!!

Ol Deuce

Thanks Ol Deuce! It's been several decades of fun gathering them!

[pull the trigger]

Hi Marlinman!! I didn't realize you were on here too. I didn't think you would be shooting the Pope set, but I am glad to see you plan to. Im still looking for my first Ballard. No luck yet.

[marlinman93]

Hi Marlinman!! I didn't realize you were on here too. I didn't think you would be shooting the Pope set, but I am glad to see you plan to. Im still looking for my first Ballard. No luck yet.

Hi pull the trigger! Yes, nothing is sacred, or beyond shooting for me! Especially something like a single shot Pope barreled rifle! How often do we get to shoot something like a Schoyen, Pope, etc., and see what all the hoopla was about? I'm excited about shooting it, but unsure when it might happen, as way too much going on around here! But I like staying busy!

[OlDeuce]

Hi Marlinman!! I didn't realize you were on here too. I didn't think you would be shooting the Pope set, but I am glad to see you plan to. Im still looking for my first Ballard. No luck yet.

There is a couple Ballards for sale in Bozeman!!! Ol Deuce

[pull the trigger]

There is a couple Ballards for sale in Bozeman!!! Ol Deuce

Do tell. My dad lives in Montana.

[marlinman93]

Do tell. My dad lives in Montana.

Sounds like it's time for a family visit!

[nekshot]

All I can say is WOW! Thanks for sharing those pics and your thoughts with them. I really admire someone who can buy these historic guns and keep them alive! Maybe someday I might get in the right place at the right time and end up with a 14 1\2 action.

[marlinman93]

All I can say is WOW! Thanks for sharing those pics and your thoughts with them. I really admire someone who can buy these historic guns and keep them alive! Maybe someday I might get in the right place at the right time and end up with a 14 1\2 action.

Thanks nekshot! Did you possibly mean a 44 1/2 action?

[marlinman93]

In the last week I received all the brass from the seller, who obtained it from the previous owner's estate! Walt was an engineer by trade, so he kept immaculate loading and ballistic records for all his guns!
Along with the brass and ammo, I received 2 binders of all sorts of load data, paperwork, and tons of receipts, inventory records, ballistic charts, for a period from the 1960's to 2016 when Walt passed. The two binders weighed 20 lbs. alone, and are an amazing testimonial to Walt. They also speak volumes about how he approached shooting with an engineer's mindset!
Top of his inventory list was the Pope 3 barrel set, but numerous other very interesting guns too! Like a 1866 Henry in .44 Rimfire. A couple drillings, some double rifles, and a Westley Richards SxS! A few old Colt SAA, and a Great Western SAA clone!
Some of the math he shows on ballistic documents he wrote up is way over my head. Papers also show number of clicks needed for various distances and loads he calculated. Very neat stuff, and it will take me weeks to browse through it all!