SUCCESS sleeve/fireforming 45-70 to 43 Dutch Beaumont-45-70 dies,no trimming

[CaptainCrossman]

I've had a Dutch Beaumont collection for quite a few years. I only have 5 rounds of 43 Beaumont ammo, reformed from 50-90 brass- and only fired 4 rounds of it in the past. Also fired 50 rounds of 45 Colt pistol ammo through the Beaumont rifle using a cartridge insert a bugle restorer made and gave to me. This required putting a 45 Colt round in the adapter, chambering it, firing it, then ejecting brass w/adapter as one piece. Then punching the empty brass out on the bench with a drift/hammer. Then reloading, and doing it all over again. Laborious to say the least...

I recently stumbled across an old net thread where 2 guys claimed they used a brass sleeve collar against the rim at base, to fireform 45-70 to .43 Beaumont. They claimed to use 3/8" and 1/2" sleeves, 1/2" i.d., with .014" wall. This has been put in print before in previous Cartridge Conversion manuals of the 1960's and 70's by 2 different authors.

So I made a trip to my local gun shop, picked up 20 used 45-70 brass for $5, and 45-70 used dies for $25. Also a new can of Trail Boss powder for $19. Loaded up the ammo using 265 grain cast lead pistol bullets, and 16 grains of Trail Boss.

The following tests were all done with a Beaumont rifle strapped to a bench at my range, using a long 30 foot length of rope with a string on the trigger end to fire the gun.

I decided to do a number of different methods to try to fireform the cases. Being they recommended cutting the brass to 3/8" sections, I came up with another easier idea. I bought 1/2" i.d. brass compression fitting ferrules for 36 cents each, and turned the o.d. of each ferrule down so it just fit the chamber of the gun. The ferrules slipped right on the loaded 45-70 shells snugly by hand. I installed these on (3) loaded cases, and fired them. 2 of the cases split just ahead of the sleeve, it was old W-W brittle brass, I did not anneal it. But one case of R-P brass fireformed perfectly. This was newer brass and better metallurgy. ah-HA...

Looking at where the W-W brass split, I decided next to buy two 12" sections of 1/2" i.d. brass tube from Grainger, for $5 each- and cut longer sections to completely cover and reinforce the entire sidewall on 2 loaded shells for the next test. The brass tubing has a .532" o.d. The Beaumont fireformed brass I had, was 1-3/8" sidewall length from rim to where it begins to neck in. So I cut 2 pieces that were 1-3/8" long, and simply slipped those onto two of the loaded 45-70 cases.

I then built up the middle of the case slightly with a strip of masking tape, so it was equal to other fireformed cases I already had. The sleeves had a .532" o.d. but the fireformed cases had a .577" o.d. in the center. So I built it up with tape there to hold the shell perfectly centered while fire forming in the chamber.

This experiment paid off, as the 2 cases with the long 1-3/8" sleeves fireformed PERFECTLY. I am now able to fireform 45-70 to 43 Beaumont with the simple addition of a low cost brass sleeve, that slips on by hand. This cuts the cost of loaded ammunition for the Beaumont about half or less.

I tried a few more experiments- having 6 old rounds of .43 Spanish laying around, I pulled the bullets, dumped the powder, and reloaded it with 16 grains Trail Boss, the bullets were around 300 grain. These shells I built up with only tape, on the base and middle, to fit the chamber. The primers were dinged from previous firing attempts, defective, and were Berdan. I punched them out from the inside, redrilled the pockets for #209 shotgun primers, and used sealer on the primer pockets. Drove the primers home using a piece of copper pipe that fit the Spanish shells perfectly, and came down over the shell and engaged the rims. Resting them on the wooden workbench, I tapped the primers home- then reloaded the shells. All 6 of these shells ignited and fired, and didn't leak from the primer pockets. But all 6 did split the cases. Old brittle brass, even though I had annealed these before loading them up. They had originally been loaded with black powder.

Next experiment was, taking 2 rounds of old 8mm Lebel ammo, and building that case up with tape to fit the chamber. The rim size is nearly spot on. Pulled the bullets, dumped the powder, and reloaded with Trail Boss. Put the original bullets back in place. My intent was fireform the cases in the Beaumont, let the bullets rattle down the bore, and see if it would yield a useable fireformed case. Unfortunately the Berdan primers in the Lebel were no good, so these 2 cases failed to ignite.

Next experiment, purchased a 1-3/8" long, 1/2" i.d. COPPER straight pipe adapter for 69 cents from the hardware store. Pressed that on a loaded 45-70. Had to turn down the o.d. of the copper sleeve a bit to make it fit the chamber, but it fit snug on the shell just like the brass tubes did. This case failed to fire because it had a smaller rim and sunk into the chamber further, escaping the full hit of the firing pin. Upon ejecting the copper sleeve stayed in the chamber. I had to extract the copper sleeve manually with a small dremel sanding drum expanded inside the sleeve, to pull it out. Maybe it's a good thing that one didn't go off, cuz that copper sleeve may have jammed permanently in the chamber.

When it was all done, tests proved that a factory 45-70 case CAN be fireformed to 43 Beaumont, using the LONG 1-3/8" brass sleeve. The resulting brass is nearly perfect.
The short 3/8" compression ferrule will also work, but only if the brass is high quality, and annealed to the proper metallurgy, in this case R-P brass.

The caveat is this- the 45-70 has a smaller rim, and the extractor recess in the side of the bolt head must be carefully and ever so slightly deepened with a small dremel disc, so the extractor travels further inwards towards centerline of the bolt- this way it grabs the smaller 45-70 rim, and pushes the other side of the case against the ejector block, to hold it while extracting/ejecting the spent case.

Another more subtle trick, is do not push the brass sleeve all the way down against the rim. Push it down just far enough to leave a small groove all around for the extractor to grab in to. There's already a small groove in the 45-70 case, don't cover it up.

Cost analysis- buying one length of 12" tubing costs $5, and will yield enough tubing to sleeve (9) shells. This adds $10 to a box of 45-70 Cowboy Action low pressure, low velocity ammo- one should be all in, ammo w/sleeves, for around $40 a box of 20. That's about half the cost of 43 Beaumont ammo built on 50-90 cases. The cost of Beaumont dies for $200/set, empty brass for $40/box, and loaded ammo for $85/box, is highway robbery IMHO. There simply has to be a better way. Pictures to follow.

[CaptainCrossman]

here are the shells I took to the range. all were loaded with Trail Boss except as noted.

6 rounds 43 Spanish, converted to #209 shotgun primer, case body built up with tape. (spacers would not fit over cases). All 6 fired but split the cases. This brass was old and just too brittle to fireform, even though I annealed it.

2 rounds 8mm Lebel, built up with tape, which I later loaded with Trail Boss and the original bullets-these 2 failed to fire due to defective Berdan primers. One was annealed (the one w/black marker on it), one not- but I never got to find out if they would fireform.

3 rounds of 45-70 I reloaded using 45-70 dies and brass, 16 grains of Trail Boss, 265 grain pistol bullets. The 2 rounds with the brass sleeves fireformed perfectly. The copper sleeved round failed to fire, and the sleeve had to be extracted from the chamber.

2 rounds of 43 Egyptian shotshell loads with factory crimping. I didn't mention these in the first post. I would have used the cases to yield fireformed 43 Beaumont, but these also failed to fire due to old defective primers.

1 round of 45-70 that got deformed when reloading. The 1/2" sleeves would not slide over it, so I just fired it with tape to hold in centered. This shell also split.

[CaptainCrossman]

here's the payoff for all this experimentation.
2 perfectly fireformed cases using the 1-3/8" brass sleeves. the sleeves now stay in place for the life of the case, effectively becoming part of the case after being fireformed. the case then has double wall thickness in this area.
this is a LOT easier and cheaper than starting with 50-90 Starline brass and reforming, trimming, fireforming, etc.

I probably could have gotten away without the tape, but wanted the case perfectly centered so it would fireform good. it paid off. I removed the tape, and where the tape was, is slightly smaller o.d. it will fully fireform next time with no tape, to full chamber dimensions. one of these is W-W brass, the same brand that split when using the small 3/8" length ferrules. a long sleeve is necessary for the sleeve method to work effectively, unless the metallurgy and annealing is perfect.

[CaptainCrossman]

tape removed from the 2 fireformed cases in previous post. one is a W-W, the other is a FC (Federal Cartridge). The long sleeve method works on the old brittle W-W brass.

[CaptainCrossman]

the 43 Spanish rounds, after converting to #209 primer, and firing. too bad these split. modern Spanish brass w/good metallurgy would have probably worked, because it's softer and factory annealed.

FWIW I converted these by hand, with a hand drill, and one drill bit from my drill index that most closely matched the primer size, but slightly smaller, so it was a press fit. Some guys tend to over-think this stuff. You don't need a drill press, lathe, threaded inserts, and million dollar machine shop to convert primer sizes. Just drill a hole in it slightly smaller than the #209 primer, find a safe method to press the primer in, and use some sealer on the primer pocket. these are not high pressure loads. look at a shotgun shell primer pocket. it's low tech. I held the shell with a rubber glove on my left hand, and drilled it out holding the drill in my right hand, horizontally, while sitting at my dining room table. it takes about 10-20 seconds to drill each primer pocket out, and about 10 seconds to drive the new primer home. I could have also drilled a second chamfer around the primer hole, to seat the primer skirt- but was pretty sure this brass was toast anyway due to age. (1880's production blackpowder rounds) That hunch proved correct.

splits like these are not a problem with a tied down Beaumont, being fired from a distance safely with a long rope/string. the Beaumont has an excellent gas venting system, if you look at it, there are 2 vertical gas ports drilled into the rear of the chamber in the rim area, at diagonal angles to relieve gas pressure from split cases or head separations. the rifle simply shrugs it off with a vertical puff of smoke.

NOTE: new modern 43 Spanish brass, full length resized using 45-70 dies, then sleeved per the 2 successful fireformed shells in previous post, would work.

[CaptainCrossman]

the short ferrule sleeve method. this is an R-P 45-70 case, with a common 1/2" compression fitting ferrule slid down over the base, then fireformed in a Dutch Beaumont rifle.
I forgot to get a pic of the empty fireformed case after firing- in this pic I had already reloaded it again.
the R-P brass being better metallurgy, fireformed the case successfully, the brass is more workable- but not as smoothly as the long sleeves did.
2 other cases (not R-P made) split using this method, due to being brittle cases with inferior metallurgy.

[CaptainCrossman]

a successfully fireformed short sleeve ferrule case, reloaded again- next to a short sleeve case that split while fireforming. The R-P case fireformed nicely, due to its superior metallurgy and more modern material. The W-W brand case is older, brittle, and split.

[CaptainCrossman]

when in doubt, test it out. about 10 years ago, the scuttlebutt on the net was that Bannerman-modified Mosin Nagant 30-06 rifles were dangerous. lots of armchair riflemen screaming to run and beware. I bought 2 of them for $150 each (Remington made), tied one to the bench, and ran a box of 20 rounds, full power WWII milsurp FMJ factory loads through it, using the string trigger. Had the camera on a tripod taking video of loading, firing, extraction- and holding brass to the camera. then still pics of brass. not a single split case. no gas blowback. later I measured the brass, there was a moderate swell at the case head base sidewall. it was around .005" to .008" if memory serves. what I learned was, new factory loaded ammo is no problem in a Bannerman Mosin 30-06. but I wouldn't reload for one. repeated swelling/working of the brass in that area may eventually cause a split.

my point being, don't believe the armchair rifleman i.e. anal gun collectors. they clean/dust/display more guns like furniture, and pass on old wives tales they've read or heard. they don't actually shoot all their guns, take measurements, and compare results ? a scientific comparison on the range bench with the trigger string, is the final arbiter.

FWIW, there are a few very well respected publications stating the sleeves needed for the above cartridge conversions, need only be 3/8" to 1/2" in length, "just long enough to center the cartridge in the chamber". I found that not to be true. a perfectly centered cartridge, with a short sleeve, and brittle metallurgy, will split when fireformed. the sidewall has no support and can't give that far without breaking. the only insurance is a lengthy sleeve covering and supporting the entire sidewall of the case, so it can't split. then annealing/metallurgy is not as critical- because you don't know the hardness of the brass you are using, unless you do a hardness test yourself- requiring a hardness testing rig. better off using the long sleeve and having a successfully fireformed case, rather than losing half the cases to splitting due to a short sleeve and brittle cases.

[skeettx]

On my two Beaumonts, I use 348 brass that I have hoarded over the years
Mike

[CaptainCrossman]

On my two Beaumonts, I use 348 brass that I have hoarded over the years
Mike

that thought had passed my mind...and it will work too...easier in regards to the base just above the rim is wider on the 348. did you buy 43 Beaumont dies, or resize the mouth with some other dies ? stages, or all in one shot ?
I have a ton of 348 brass...just can't bring myself to resize it for a $100 Beaumont rifle.
it's for my Winchester Model 71. Had the brass in my hand thinking about it...then decided against it. I like most any kind of gun, cheap and expensive, and all in between. Truth be told cheap guns are usually way more fun to tinker with and shoot- there's no risk ! but taking brass from my M71 to use in a Beaumont, would sorta be like taking spark plugs and wires off my '70 GTO, to put on a Yugo or VW bug.
I wanted to resize/fireform a case that was already 45 caliber and used the same bullet.
IMHO that's half the battle.
the 45-70 starts off longer than the 43 Beaumont, then shortens itself upon firing to exactly the right length with no trimming- and no case mouth resizing with dies.

[CaptainCrossman]

correction- the 43 Egyptian shot rounds, are not Berdan primed
they are Remington-UMC boxer primed. I should have known that from the headstamp.
cut the crimps off them with pipe cutter, pulled shot and powder.
they had square shaped shot- pretty sure it was called a riot cartridge or crowd control shell
leave it to the Egyptians to think up something like this- imagine getting shot with this ? brutal !! I wonder what they would use if they really wanted to hurt somebody, rather than just "control" them ? :veryconfu :shock:
both loaded with blackpowder large flake
gained 2 more useable 43 Beaumont cases, primers knocked out easy with an icepick

[CaptainCrossman]

dug through my old cartridges, found 3 more 11mm-something shells with wide rims, tried to sell these back when for $2 each and no takers, late 1800's vintage BP factory loads. would not chamber in Beaumont rifle, OAL was slightly too long. bullets were hitting rifling, and were really crimped in tight, could not remove them. ok time to get mad dog mean, cartridge case debauchery beyond the pale-

carefully cut off the cartridges to 45-70 case length, with pipe cutter & hacksaw.:mad:

this left a small piece of lead in each cartridge. now they chamber, extract, eject like a mutha- correct case length for starters. I'm expecting them to shorten up when the case fully expands like the others. 45-70 case length seems like the sweet spot to start for this, it worked before...

we'll see what happens if primers are good and they touch off. will leave these for last, and check bore after each shot- maybe add 50 more feet to that trigger string...:p:idea: (laughter...) just kidding- they should be ok, blackpowder loads.

50-90 based Beaumont cartridge for comparison in pics

[Bent Ramrod]

Very nice writeup, Capt. Crossman. Many of George Nonte's case modifying techniques are generally considered a little too recherché in this era of litigatory lunacy, but as you demonstrate, they do work.

And, of course, risks are to be (intelligently) managed, rather than run away from, shrieking.

Well done!

So, how does it shoot?

[CaptainCrossman]

haven't given up on the 8mm Lebel cases yet either.
removed Berdan primer, going to drill it straight through and convert to #209 shotgun primer, drill the skirt seat recess chamfer as well, load 'er up with Trail Boss and original 8mm bullet, see if it fire forms in the Beaumont. this case was annealed in a pan of water with a propane torch, then knocked over to quench it.

we'll see if it yields a useable Beaumont fire formed case- soon....stay tuned

[CaptainCrossman]

Very nice writeup, Capt. Crossman. Many of George Nonte's case modifying techniques are generally considered a little too recherché in this era of litigatory lunacy, but as you demonstrate, they do work.

And, of course, risks are to be (intelligently) managed, rather than run away from, shrieking.

Well done!

So, how does it shoot?


well thank you sir...there is a method to the madness. there's literally truckloads of these Beaumonts around. they are affordable, fun to shoot, but ammo/dies/brass it nutsy kookoo priced. for the price of Beaumont dies and Starline brass, you can practically have a gunsmith plug and rechamber it to 45-70 and be done. $250 for brass/dies for a $100 gun sort of takes the fun out of it. there's got to be a better way.

and at least, it's cleaning out my top dresser drawer of all those cartridges and brass, rolling around in there under my socks....they'll either yield useable Beaumont brass, or be destroyed in the process...:p

it shot fine, when I shouldered it. This fireforming process has been string fired so far, but the next lot of long sleeved cases I will shoulder fire. I had 5 rounds of bona fide 50-90 Starline loaded with Beaumont dies, that a previous guy gave me- the rifle is accurate.
and fired 50+ rounds of 45 Colt through it with cartridge converter insert. that shot really good too, the rifling in these is usually always excellent for their age. they were not heavily used by the Dutch, ever.

here are pics of the 45 Colt cartridge converter, the entire thing ejects every time a round is fired, the empty must then be driven out with a small hammer and reloaded, then rechambered again.

[CaptainCrossman]

you mentioned how attitudes have changed about stuff like this, so true.
back in the 1960-70's when I was a kid, my Dad and uncles, never bought a factory shell...and hadn't done so for like 30 years.
they grew up in the depression and reloaded everything.
my Dad told me this story, when he was 14, he and his friend decided to go deer hunting. they borrowed a 40 year old model 94 Winchester, in 32 Special from a guy who was so old, he couldn't hunt anymore. then they went halves on a box of ammo, each kid got 10 rounds. I guess $5 was a lot for ammo inthose days, or whatever it was...
my Dad would hunt one day, his friend the next, using the same gun and their share of ammo.
a family member told my Dad this- now remember, if one of you get a deer, you have to give some of the meat to the old guy who lent you the Winchester, too...
how things have changed....(chuckle...)

[fgd135]

That's a lot of work! I buy 43 Beaumont cases made from reformed CBC 24 ga boxer shotgun brass, 25 in a box for less than $50. Cases work great, all I have to do is just neck size after shooting with a 45 colt die. Cases are holding up after several cycles. No pressure problems with blackpowder loads. Rifle is very accurate. Cases use large pistol primers, and I shoot a RNFB 458 bullet lubed with SPG over a card wad, with a foam backer rod filler over the powder.

[Artful]

Well done CaptainCrossman! And what a feeling of accomplishment you must have now.

[skeettx]

I expand to accept a .358 bullet and then fireform with black powder
Then wash and rinse and clean
and then load for regular using an assortment of dies
Beaumont's are more than $100 these days :)
http://www.gunbroker.com/Antique-Guns/BI.aspx?Keywords=beaumont
http://www.gunbroker.com/Bolt-Action-Rifles/BI.aspx?Keywords=beaumont
Mike

[CaptainCrossman]

last price I checked was $80 for loaded ammo, was it Buffalo Arms ??

Gad's custom cartridges has Egyptian which will fireform and is almost the same cartridge, don't know what brass he's using. $60/box black powder

http://www.gadcustomcartridges.com/

[CaptainCrossman]

That's a lot of work! I buy 43 Beaumont cases made from reformed CBC 24 ga boxer shotgun brass, 25 in a box for less than $50. Cases work great, all I have to do is just neck size after shooting with a 45 colt die. Cases are holding up after several cycles. No pressure problems with blackpowder loads. Rifle is very accurate. Cases use large pistol primers, and I shoot a RNFB 458 bullet lubed with SPG over a card wad, with a foam backer rod filler over the powder.

how is depriming 45-70, and loading it bone stock with cast lead bullets, then slipping sleeves over it, a lot of work ? that had to be the easiest cartridge conversion I ever did in a long time.
the shotgun shells are yet another option, thanks for sharing. I have a few questions about using 24 gauge, cuz all the online info says to use 32 gauge/14mm shells to convert to Beaumont. are you sure that wasn't 32 gauge ?
I heard about the shotgun shell option. When I bought the 45-70 brass, the gun shop had a box of 14mm shotgun shells, which I think is the same as 32 gauge. they were $1.50/round loaded. pretty sure the size is the same or very close to a 43 Beaumont, cuz I had a Beaumont loaded round and compared the shell heads and rims.
25 empty shells for $50, that's not exactly cheap though, then you have to load them yet. for that much you could just buy a box of loaded ammo from Gad's, shoot them the first time, and keep the brass for free. no work at all for the first 20 rounds.
IMHO if the brass is $2 each for starters, I'd pass. but that's just me...it's something to keep an eye out for in the gun shop and gun show bins though. I guess if you get a lot of cycles out of them then it may be worthwhile.

my motto is when it gets over $1 a shot, that sorta takes the fun out of it for me. that hole in the paper isn't worth a $1 per hole to me. again that's just me. most of the ammo I get is $5-$10 per box of 20, or less- reloaded or old stock. found a lot of vintage loaded ammo that was 3 rounds/$1 i.e. 33 cents each. the only thing I paid $2 a round for, was 33 Winchester and 348 Winchester.

[CaptainCrossman]

$78 a box at Buffalo Arms right now, loaded.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/43-dutch-11x52r-beaumont-loaded-ammuntion-m71-78-box-of-20-amo43beaumontb

[CaptainCrossman]

[QUOTE=Artful;4058942]Well done CaptainCrossman! And what a feeling of accomplishment you must

yes it's fun to do and I like sharing the info with others with the same rifle. we all learn as we go.

[CaptainCrossman]

That's a lot of work! I buy 43 Beaumont cases made from reformed CBC 24 ga boxer shotgun brass, 25 in a box for less than $50. Cases work great, all I have to do is just neck size after shooting with a 45 colt die. Cases are holding up after several cycles. No pressure problems with blackpowder loads. Rifle is very accurate. Cases use large pistol primers, and I shoot a RNFB 458 bullet lubed with SPG over a card wad, with a foam backer rod filler over the powder.

24 gauge is oversize at the mouth and bore for the Beaumont chamber, it's over .600" diameter, are you sure you didn't mean 32 gauge ? otherwise how are you sizing that brass down to get it inside the Beaumont chamber ? this chamber is only .577" at its widest point.
cuz I had looked into this already, the 32 gauge most closely resembles the Beaumont. in Europe they call it a 14mm shotgun shell.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/shotshellloads.html

[dogmower]

I use either 50-90 cases or 32 gauge shotshell brass to form cases. I shoot a 370 grain cast boolit over imr4198. shoots great, no overpressure signs, and I haven't lost a case yet. my method of case forming is:
trim the cases a few thousandths over on the tubing cutter Harbor Freight sells. Anneal. Form cases sizer die. Trim using the Lee trimmer (cutter mounted in a vise, case spun in my drill press). Lee doesn't make a guide rod/trim length rod for that caliber, so I just made one on the lathe. Case mouths come out nice and square and it's fast.
BTW, I have an extra 43 Beaumont size die I'll sell if anyone is interested. I originally bought the sizing die from c4hd for $115 and just used my 450/577 martini seating die to seat the boolits, but a nice gent here sold me a complete die set, so I have the extra sizer die. pm me if interested.

[EDG]

I don't think this in general a safe method to reform brass. The OP has demonstrated that many cases may crack even in low pressure BP rounds.

Not every rifle will handle escaping gas the same way. You could easily get hurt fire forming brass with this method if you use the brass later in a high pressure round.

What kind of failures are you going to have 5 or 10 reloads later? That has not been fully tested.

[CaptainCrossman]

got a few more experimental shells to test fire in the Beaumont chamber, loaded them up yesterday. hopefully will have time today to try them out, weather permitting. it's been raining a lot lately.
8mm Lebel- this one was emptied of lead/powder, carefully annealed in pan w/water, reloaded with Trail Boss 16gr and the original bullet, to see how it fireformed. The original Berdan primer failed to fire.
I pulled bullet/powder again, drilled out Berdan primer, and pressed in a new old stock #57 Fiocci shotgun primer. They are the smaller primer used for early brass shotgun shells, and fit the Lebel better than a #209 shotgun primer. The 209 was too big to get in there, the Lebel rifle brass has a thicker primer pocket inside, would require more reaming to get the hole size right. The #57 pressed right in after just drilling out the Berdan with the usual drill bit I use for Berdan removal, 7/32". Also drilled a slight chamfer around the primer hole using a 5/16" bit.

[CaptainCrossman]

one of those old loaded 11mm cartridges I cut off to fireform, had a jacketed bullet. jacketed bullets were introduced to deal with the higher pressures of smokeless powders in the late 1800's. not wanting to throw caution to the wind and wreck one of my Beaumont rifles with hasty carelessness- some net research revealed that headstamp indeed could be loaded with smokeless powder by design, here's what I found. "poudre sans fumee" means smokeless powder in French. so I drilled the bullet out and removed it, there was a wad under the bullet, and powder that is large square/round black flakes. it looks like blackpowder loaded, but can't tell for sure- I changed it anyway to 16 grains Trail Boss, and put a new cast lead bullet in.

http://i48.tinypic.com/19qn7q.jpg

[CaptainCrossman]

The 433 Eqyptian shotshell brass loaded up easily, with a boxer primer, 16gr Trail Boss, and a cast lead bullet. Those I don't have to fire, I know they will work.

[CaptainCrossman]

the Egyptian brass won't be fired, nothing to prove there.
the 3 old 11mm cutoff shells will be fired today. pretty sure they will fireform, unless there's a brittle case issue again. I did not anneal them.
the big suspense is, what will an 8mm Lebel round do when fired in the 43 Beaumont chamber ?
stay tuned, we're going to find out when the string is pulled. I'd bet Vegas odds it's going to split the brass, but I did anneal that one so here goes...

[CaptainCrossman]

well the rain stopped and I got out and fired a few more test cartridges
all the old 11mm ammo did not work out.

the SFM marked shell that I reloaded with Trail Boss and a cast lead bullet, split upon firing. the original primer did go off.

the blackpowder shell that was dated "1887" went off like a 50 cal. Hawken flintlock, with a big bang and cloud of blackpowder smoke, and bucked in the bench tiedown- and the original primer on that worked too. amazing, a 139 year old primer still fired. upon ejecting it, the shell was broken in half, and the front portion had to be removed from the chamber with a wire brush on a cleaning rod.

so far this showed that the old turn of the century brass is just too brittle to re-use, even if annealed. remember all 6 of the 43 Spanish brass also split even though it was annealed.

the unmarked case head 11 shell, failed to fire. the primer did not ignite. so that one has to be taken apart, and converted to shotgun primer, and loaded up again.

now the kicker- the 8mm Lebel brass, that was converted to shotgun primer, and annealed- that one fire formed into a useable 43 Beaumont brass casing- albeit .100" on the short side. the OAL on the fireformed Lebel brass is 1.940"

I have another 20+ rounds of that 8mm Lebel loaded ammo, am going to pull all the bullets, convert them all to shotgun primer, and fire form them all.
below is the fired 11mm cases that were cut off- left to right:

SFM cartridge, had Trail Boss/new cast bullet- split when fired.
unmarked blackpowder cartridge, did not fire, bad primer
"1887" blackpowder cartridge, broke in half when fired.

[CaptainCrossman]

the split SFM case, and broken in two "1887" case

[CaptainCrossman]

this was a pleasant little surprise- the annealed 8MM Lebel cartridge, fireformed to a nearly perfect 43 Beaumont case- albeit to a 1.940" length. these will work, the bullet will have to jump that distance to get into the rifling- on the bright side, you'll never have to trim them...(chuckle...)

here are pics with the chamber centering tape, and with tape removed. when fired next time without tape, the lower part of the case should fire form to full diameter of chamber- and the case should grow longer yet with each successive firing.

[CaptainCrossman]

here is a comparison of the 8mm Lebel fire formed case, to others cases.
compared to the 433 Egyptian unfired, the sleeved 45-70 fire formed case, and a Starline brass 50-90 that has been fired 4 times and reloaded by just neck sizing.

[CaptainCrossman]

Seeing the Lebel case fireform so easily to near net size, got me thinking, how would a 348 Winchester case loaded with trail boss/cast lead work, simply fire formed in the Beaumont ? my hunch is, it should have to work even better than the Lebel, being the 348 brass is longer, and higher quality commercial brass, not military. the 348 cartridge chambers in the Beaumont rifle.

somebody pinch me- yes it's true and actually worked- an 8MM Lebel milsurp case will fire form to 43 Beaumont, by firing the original 8mm bullet rattling down the bore, using 16gr of Trail Boss powder. Still can't believe it worked, and didn't split.

below pic, left to right- the fire formed Lebel case, center is a factory unfired 348 Winchester silver tip, and on the right a reloaded Starline 50-90 fire formed case that was neck sized and reloaded.

I am not going to steal brass from my Model 71 to use in the Beaumont, but I do have 45-70 brass that was already resized to either 33 Win or 348 Win somewhere here ? that I die sized and never used, cuz then I found and bought a lot of factory 33 and 348 Win. brass shortly thereafter. when time allows am going to reclaim that brass for the Beaumont as well- in addition to the rest of the Lebel loaded ammo I have. the 33 Win and 348 Win hopefully will fire form without any brass sleeves, being they are larger tapered cases at the base similar to a Lebel, not straight wall like a 45-70. will test one brass 33 or 348 case first, to see how it works. if they split oh well nix the idea.

the benefit of using the Lebel brass is, it has a larger rim than 45-70 and should extract/eject easier in the Beaumont.

hope you guys find this informative, I sure did- and it was interesting and fun doing it. there's quite a few options available to fire form 43 Beaumont brass from, without ever trimming a case, or buying pricey 43 Beaumont dies, and 50-90 brass. I may buy a few of those 32 gauge paper shells, cut them off, and load them with 45 cal. round balls, and see how they work- if they chamber. the tests showed the old, turn of the century brass is good for just one shot then it splits. all the rumors about old brass being very brittle, appear to be true.

[CaptainCrossman]

ps- the rest of the 8mm Lebel ammo, most likely they all have bad primers too...pulling all the tips, dumping the powder, converting them all to shotgun primers, to make 43 Beaumont....this is a project for another rainy day....or maybe a winter night 2017-18 ??...;-)

adios for now, I need a break !! [smilie=s:

[TexTenn59]

BTW, I have an extra 43 Beaumont size die I'll sell if anyone is interested. I originally bought the sizing die from c4hd for $115 and just used my 450/577 martini seating die to seat the boolits, but a nice gent here sold me a complete die set, so I have the extra sizer die. pm me if interested.

PM sent

[mazo kid]

CC, it seems that you are trying to make viable ammo from questionable brass. I made a few cases from 45-70 brass; simply wrapped a length of the base with furnace tape to help keep it centered in the bore. I didn't care for the "pregnant guppie" look, but never lost any due to splitting. I bought 50 pieces of 50-90 brass for $56.00 shipped and trimmed and formed some of those. I didn't buy any dies, just used what I had on-hand to neck the brass. The shoulder was quite sharp, but on fire-forming, they tapered up nicely. Since I only have the one rifle, I can shoot those for a long time without needing to FL size.

[toot]

this is a great tutorial! i think it should be added to a STICKY!